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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Pleasestop wrote:


As far as I can tell, Martel is a part of the "we don't understand it, but saw it happen vaguely once, so we better nerf it, since it isn't my army" crowd. Best to ignore all of them.


It's not terribly hard to pop bikers up turn 2, move them turn 3, and poop demos out 6" with 2s to hit (Alpha). The KM can deal with screens easily enough.

I haven't played it so I can't comment on if it's broken or not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/04 17:38:37


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Galef wrote:
Bharring wrote:
However, "reroll wounds" increases the damage Shurken weapons do to Marines by the exact same ratio as it increases LasBlasters/Bolters/etc; it's still a 50% increase in deadliness for to-wounds of a 4+. How quickly Shurikens delete Marines is separate.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss AP when discussing the potency of an ability to reroll wounds, especially when rolling a certain number does something special.
So indicating those 2 things as separate is kinda pedantic. I was illustrating that Doom on Shuriken weapons does more than reroll wounds for Bolters.

But to your point, I would only want Doom restricted to just Asuryani units if Knight Invuls are capped are 4++ as well.

-

This is actually inaccurate: Reroll wounds does exactly as much to the same throughput of weapons, whether it's Shuriken or Bolters.

Shooting Bolters at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed
Shooting Shuriken at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed

If it takes you N guys to kill something with Boltguns, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.
If it takes you N guys to kill something with Shuriken, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.

The difference can be that it takes fewer Shuriken shots to kill Marines than Boltguns. But that should be wholly seperate from Doom. That'd be like saying a QuadLas pred gets more out of Doom than a Swooping Hawk - the increased amount it kills is more, sure. But you've increased it by a smaller factor (vs anything below T18).
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Bharring wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Bharring wrote:
However, "reroll wounds" increases the damage Shurken weapons do to Marines by the exact same ratio as it increases LasBlasters/Bolters/etc; it's still a 50% increase in deadliness for to-wounds of a 4+. How quickly Shurikens delete Marines is separate.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss AP when discussing the potency of an ability to reroll wounds, especially when rolling a certain number does something special.
So indicating those 2 things as separate is kinda pedantic. I was illustrating that Doom on Shuriken weapons does more than reroll wounds for Bolters.

But to your point, I would only want Doom restricted to just Asuryani units if Knight Invuls are capped are 4++ as well.

-

This is actually inaccurate: Reroll wounds does exactly as much to the same throughput of weapons, whether it's Shuriken or Bolters.

Shooting Bolters at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed
Shooting Shuriken at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed

If it takes you N guys to kill something with Boltguns, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.
If it takes you N guys to kill something with Shuriken, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.

The difference can be that it takes fewer Shuriken shots to kill Marines than Boltguns. But that should be wholly seperate from Doom. That'd be like saying a QuadLas pred gets more out of Doom than a Swooping Hawk - the increased amount it kills is more, sure. But you've increased it by a smaller factor (vs anything below T18).


That shouldn't be separate from Doom. That's half the point of the damned spell - to trigger more to wound procs.

Shurikens w/ doom are 50% better than bolters w/ doom.

   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





I love that people are complaining about the GSC biker bomb without even knowing how it works.
Really shows the level of players at work...

You deploy the bikes outside of 3" using Lying in Wait. (2 cp)
You then get to shoot in the movement phase using Perfect Ambush. (3cp)
You get to throw 5 demo charges using Extra Explosives (1 cp)
You then get to throw another 5 demo charges in the shooting phase (1 cp)
Any of those 2 shooting attacks can benefit from Drive-By Demolitions for +1 to hit and wound (1 cp).

Yes its powerful, but the GSC player can only do it once and it costs 7 to 9 CP.
Plus you can screen against it.

Please don't talk balance when you don't even know how the thing your complaining about works.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Bharring wrote:
However, "reroll wounds" increases the damage Shurken weapons do to Marines by the exact same ratio as it increases LasBlasters/Bolters/etc; it's still a 50% increase in deadliness for to-wounds of a 4+. How quickly Shurikens delete Marines is separate.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss AP when discussing the potency of an ability to reroll wounds, especially when rolling a certain number does something special.
So indicating those 2 things as separate is kinda pedantic. I was illustrating that Doom on Shuriken weapons does more than reroll wounds for Bolters.

But to your point, I would only want Doom restricted to just Asuryani units if Knight Invuls are capped are 4++ as well.

-

This is actually inaccurate: Reroll wounds does exactly as much to the same throughput of weapons, whether it's Shuriken or Bolters.

Shooting Bolters at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed
Shooting Shuriken at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed

If it takes you N guys to kill something with Boltguns, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.
If it takes you N guys to kill something with Shuriken, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.

The difference can be that it takes fewer Shuriken shots to kill Marines than Boltguns. But that should be wholly seperate from Doom. That'd be like saying a QuadLas pred gets more out of Doom than a Swooping Hawk - the increased amount it kills is more, sure. But you've increased it by a smaller factor (vs anything below T18).


That shouldn't be separate from Doom. That's half the point of the damned spell - to trigger more to wound procs.

Shurikens w/ doom are 50% better than bolters w/ doom.

Only when Shurikens without Doom are 50% better than Bolters without Doom.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Martel732 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They can shoot twice. And get +1 to hit and wound. Its dumb all around.


Uh. No they can't?

A perfect Ambush allows you to shoot as if it's the shooting phase OR move D6", not one then the other. You can't use a different stratagem to move after deploying because of the "warptime" nerf FAQ, and you can't double shoot because the weapons are 6" range and you have to deploy outside 9". Also, demo charges are 1 use only anyway, so even if you could magically get into range and then use it...you can only throw the fething bombs one time, period.

You are completely and utterly ignorant as to what this combo does, how it works, how much it costs or how actually strong this is. Saying this is in any way OP or even good completely destroys your credibility on everything else you want nerfed.

You may as well have listed "nerf Blood Angels 5-man assault marine squads, they can use a stratagem to charge 3d6" and fight twice its so op"

Sure, there exists a stratagem that allows them to have +1 to hit and wound with grenade weapons. So you can punch that up to a WHOPPING single rhino-class vehicle destroyed by spending *only* 5CP (and a 50% chance for it to not work at all because you didn't get in range, and any screening units at all makes it basically impossible because if they deploy one 25mm base width farther back they need a 6 to get in range)



There's a logical fallacy in there somewhere.

Its clear ive got two strats switched or gsc opponents have been misinterpreting their rules. Forget the bikes thing.


IS there? Because if I take a 5-man blood angels assault squad with a thunder hammer on the sergeant and I spend 5CP on those suckers, I feel like I've got a much better chance of actually succeeding at getting into combat, and I do slightly more damage with them than the single-use demo charges.

Sure, I burn my most important two blood angel stratagems on a squad that is essentially a worse version of another squad I could be taking, but hey, we're talking about burning A Perfect Ambush on 75 points of freaking atalan jackals.

So it sure isn't a false equivocation fallacy, that's for sure. You are essentially calling for a nerf to min size blood angel assault squads based on the damage they do while burning 5 command points because you don't understand how that unit works in the context of an entire army. If anything, I'm being charitable, because I'm not claiming they can do something they literally cannot do for multiple reasons.

The internet needs a logical fallacy for "I don't have any counter-argument so I'm just going to say 'logical fallacy' and leave it there."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ordana wrote:
I love that people are complaining about the GSC biker bomb without even knowing how it works.
Really shows the level of players at work...

You deploy the bikes outside of 3" using Lying in Wait. (2 cp)
You then get to shoot in the movement phase using Perfect Ambush. (3cp)
You get to throw 5 demo charges using Extra Explosives (1 cp)
You then get to throw another 5 demo charges in the shooting phase (1 cp)
Any of those 2 shooting attacks can benefit from Drive-By Demolitions for +1 to hit and wound (1 cp).

Yes its powerful, but the GSC player can only do it once and it costs 7 to 9 CP.
Plus you can screen against it.

Please don't talk balance when you don't even know how the thing your complaining about works.


Tell me, what does the sentence

"The bearer can only use this weapon once per battle"

mean to you?

Is that a sentence you figure is open to interpretation somehow?

Or did you just make a post berating people for not understanding a rules combo that you yourself are casually doubling the effectiveness of by missing that restriction?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/04 18:30:55


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Thats not what i meant. But please, keep ranting after i admitted there was a lack of full understanding on my part. Its really hard to keep track of everything they are burning for.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
I love that people are complaining about the GSC biker bomb without even knowing how it works.
Really shows the level of players at work...

You deploy the bikes outside of 3" using Lying in Wait. (2 cp)
You then get to shoot in the movement phase using Perfect Ambush. (3cp)
You get to throw 5 demo charges using Extra Explosives (1 cp)
You then get to throw another 5 demo charges in the shooting phase (1 cp)
Any of those 2 shooting attacks can benefit from Drive-By Demolitions for +1 to hit and wound (1 cp).

Yes its powerful, but the GSC player can only do it once and it costs 7 to 9 CP.
Plus you can screen against it.

Please don't talk balance when you don't even know how the thing your complaining about works.


Tell me, what does the sentence

"The bearer can only use this weapon once per battle"

mean to you?

Is that a sentence you figure is open to interpretation somehow?

Or did you just make a post berating people for not understanding a rules combo that you yourself are casually doubling the effectiveness of by missing that restriction?
You take 10 bikes with demo charges to do it twice when you come down (like the list that got 2nd at Adepticon did).
If you only use 5 then you can skip the shooting in the movement phase and save yourself 4 CP.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Pleasestop wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They can shoot twice. And get +1 to hit and wound. Its dumb all around.


Uh. No they can't?

A perfect Ambush allows you to shoot as if it's the shooting phase OR move D6", not one then the other. You can't use a different stratagem to move after deploying because of the "warptime" nerf FAQ, and you can't double shoot because the weapons are 6" range and you have to deploy outside 9". Also, demo charges are 1 use only anyway, so even if you could magically get into range and then use it...you can only throw the fething bombs one time, period.

You are completely and utterly ignorant as to what this combo does, how it works, how much it costs or how actually strong this is. Saying this is in any way OP or even good completely destroys your credibility on everything else you want nerfed.

You may as well have listed "nerf Blood Angels 5-man assault marine squads, they can use a stratagem to charge 3d6" and fight twice its so op"

Sure, there exists a stratagem that allows them to have +1 to hit and wound with grenade weapons. So you can punch that up to a WHOPPING single rhino-class vehicle destroyed by spending *only* 5CP (and a 50% chance for it to not work at all because you didn't get in range, and any screening units at all makes it basically impossible because if they deploy one 25mm base width farther back they need a 6 to get in range)



There's a logical fallacy in there somewhere.

Its clear ive got two strats switched or gsc opponents have been misinterpreting their rules. Forget the bikes thing.


Pointing out logical fallacies as a means of argument is in itself a logical fallacy...
]


It's only a logical fallacy if you do some form of the following:
"You said A therefore B. A therefore B contains a fallacy, therefore B is not true."

(The name for that is a Fallacy Fallacy or Metafallacy, depending on who you ask.)

That's not what Martel did. He told The Scottsman that he'd committed a fallacy somewhere (which he did, his post was a clear Ad Hominem and an Appeal to Extremes) and then backed off his position anyway because he couldn't be sure his group wasn't misreading rules somewhere.

He did not at all try to tell The Scottsman that he was wrong because of the fallacy.

Ironically in implying that Martel was wrong on the premise of a Metafallacy you committed one yourself and took the position that Martel should not have admitted his group could be reading the rules incorrectly.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/04 19:15:01


 
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




Portland, Maine

I'd love to see a rule like AoS where charging units still get to move their charge distance regardless of whether or not they make it into CC. It doesn't make any sense to have the unit just stand still. Reminds me of an old Capital One commercial where a bunch of vikings just stop running towards each other in the middle of a battlefield.

Bolters deserve to be AP-1. Even with Bolter Drill they are underwhelming. Rocket propelled bullets shouldn't be bouncing off T-Shirts.

Improvements to fortifications would be nice. I occasionally use them in lists, but the horrendous BS is unnecessarily bad. If I want to protect infantry it often just makes more sense to stick them in a normal transport. They can't be buffed in any way so why not either let them use the embarked units BS or give them BS 4+ instead.

Would be good to get some more dynamic terrain rules and/or allow cover saves to stack (1s still always fail). If "hard-to-hit" modifiers stack, so should cover saves.

It's probably too much to hope for, but I'd also love it if the Haruspex got WS 3+ or re-roll 1's to hit. An average of 4 hits is pretty lackluster for a model that is supposed to be shoveling infantry into its mouth.

   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





It would never happen, but
Eliminate all re-rolls from the game. Possibly the single biggest thing they could do to speed up the game. Just make the +1(or similar) to the relevant roll. Would hurt stats that need a 2+, but I'd be ok with that to having armies basically re-rolling dice in every phase.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

Bharring wrote:
Spoiler:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Bharring wrote:
However, "reroll wounds" increases the damage Shurken weapons do to Marines by the exact same ratio as it increases LasBlasters/Bolters/etc; it's still a 50% increase in deadliness for to-wounds of a 4+. How quickly Shurikens delete Marines is separate.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss AP when discussing the potency of an ability to reroll wounds, especially when rolling a certain number does something special.
So indicating those 2 things as separate is kinda pedantic. I was illustrating that Doom on Shuriken weapons does more than reroll wounds for Bolters.

But to your point, I would only want Doom restricted to just Asuryani units if Knight Invuls are capped are 4++ as well.

-

This is actually inaccurate: Reroll wounds does exactly as much to the same throughput of weapons, whether it's Shuriken or Bolters.

Shooting Bolters at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed
Shooting Shuriken at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed

If it takes you N guys to kill something with Boltguns, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.
If it takes you N guys to kill something with Shuriken, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.

The difference can be that it takes fewer Shuriken shots to kill Marines than Boltguns. But that should be wholly seperate from Doom. That'd be like saying a QuadLas pred gets more out of Doom than a Swooping Hawk - the increased amount it kills is more, sure. But you've increased it by a smaller factor (vs anything below T18).


That shouldn't be separate from Doom. That's half the point of the damned spell - to trigger more to wound procs.

Shurikens w/ doom are 50% better than bolters w/ doom.

Only when Shurikens without Doom are 50% better than Bolters without Doom.


Here's the thing, you're thinking in terms of %, I'm thinking in terms of actual numbers. More opportunities to trigger AP-3 is an obvious advantage over just regular bolters
If you cannot see that, I'm not sure why I keep responding.

But as I've said, Doom is a good power but I don't think anything needs to change about it other than the obvious oversight of it applying to non-CWE units.
It's just too easy to take this good power and make it disproportionately auto-take.

-

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Any thoughts to the FAQ dropping tomorrow morning? WHC content was pretty light today and I feel it has dropped on a Friday previously.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 bullyboy wrote:
Any thoughts to the FAQ dropping tomorrow morning? WHC content was pretty light today and I feel it has dropped on a Friday previously.
I'd expect it atleast 2 weeks after Adepticon, same as last time.
If it drops sooner then that its because they didn't see anything at Adepticon that warranted a reaction.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

 Ordana wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Any thoughts to the FAQ dropping tomorrow morning? WHC content was pretty light today and I feel it has dropped on a Friday previously.
I'd expect it atleast 2 weeks after Adepticon, same as last time.
If it drops sooner then that its because they didn't see anything at Adepticon that warranted a reaction.
Yeah, fingers crossed it's soon. It feels like forever since the last one.

Although I probably shouldn't get my hopes up. Recent FAQs seem to mostly address things no one was really expecting and sometimes ignore things that need to be fixed

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/04 19:19:47


   
Made in us
Wing Commander





 Galef wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Any thoughts to the FAQ dropping tomorrow morning? WHC content was pretty light today and I feel it has dropped on a Friday previously.
I'd expect it atleast 2 weeks after Adepticon, same as last time.
If it drops sooner then that its because they didn't see anything at Adepticon that warranted a reaction.
Yeah, fingers crossed it's soon. It feels like forever since the last one.

Although I probably shouldn't get my hopes up. Recent FAQs seem to mostly address things no one was really expecting and sometimes ignore things that need to be fixed

-


I feel like they sometimes take the most random questions from people who never play either.

"Q: If a Dark Reaper is wearing pants, is it ok to assume it's Tuesday?
A: Only if the Dark Reaper is within 6" of the nearest Rhino."
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant




Tampa, FL

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Galef wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Any thoughts to the FAQ dropping tomorrow morning? WHC content was pretty light today and I feel it has dropped on a Friday previously.
I'd expect it atleast 2 weeks after Adepticon, same as last time.
If it drops sooner then that its because they didn't see anything at Adepticon that warranted a reaction.
Yeah, fingers crossed it's soon. It feels like forever since the last one.

Although I probably shouldn't get my hopes up. Recent FAQs seem to mostly address things no one was really expecting and sometimes ignore things that need to be fixed

-


I feel like they sometimes take the most random questions from people who never play either.

"Q: If a Dark Reaper is wearing pants, is it ok to assume it's Tuesday?
A: Only if the Dark Reaper is within 6" of the nearest Rhino."


Yeah, a lot of the questions they answer seem to be the sort of "What kind of idiot is asking this" but then realize it's done probably so some cheesehead doesn't try to argue RAW at a tournament. Like last FAQ there was a question that went something like:

Q: In a mission that uses the Acceptable Losses rule (the one that says you don't automatically win if you table your opponent), if I concede the game does my opponent still win?
A: Yes.

Now at face value, this seems like one of those ridiculous slowed questions. But consider if they didn't answer this, then someone could theoretically argue that if they were up on VP and conceded the game if their opponent would not be able to get enough VP to tie or win in the remaining turns, they could win the game even if they concede. Could you imagine the scandal if someone tried this gak at a major tournament?

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Weren’t there points changes in other FAQs?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Bharring wrote:

Only when Shurikens without Doom are 50% better than Bolters without Doom.


The reality is that 12 hits means bolters kill 2 MEQ and shurikens with doom kill 4.5 MEQ.

Averages don't cover rolling hot with your dice and blowing away a unit - Doom just makes that easier to achieve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Weren’t there points changes in other FAQs?


Yes - a small number of them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/04 20:06:20


   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






So we can expect a small number of points changes for this FAQ then too.
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





Honest Question:

All the math is done shooting MEQ, why not GEQ? Surely there are more shots against GEQ than MEQ?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Galef wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Spoiler:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Bharring wrote:
However, "reroll wounds" increases the damage Shurken weapons do to Marines by the exact same ratio as it increases LasBlasters/Bolters/etc; it's still a 50% increase in deadliness for to-wounds of a 4+. How quickly Shurikens delete Marines is separate.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss AP when discussing the potency of an ability to reroll wounds, especially when rolling a certain number does something special.
So indicating those 2 things as separate is kinda pedantic. I was illustrating that Doom on Shuriken weapons does more than reroll wounds for Bolters.

But to your point, I would only want Doom restricted to just Asuryani units if Knight Invuls are capped are 4++ as well.

-

This is actually inaccurate: Reroll wounds does exactly as much to the same throughput of weapons, whether it's Shuriken or Bolters.

Shooting Bolters at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed
Shooting Shuriken at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed

If it takes you N guys to kill something with Boltguns, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.
If it takes you N guys to kill something with Shuriken, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.

The difference can be that it takes fewer Shuriken shots to kill Marines than Boltguns. But that should be wholly seperate from Doom. That'd be like saying a QuadLas pred gets more out of Doom than a Swooping Hawk - the increased amount it kills is more, sure. But you've increased it by a smaller factor (vs anything below T18).


That shouldn't be separate from Doom. That's half the point of the damned spell - to trigger more to wound procs.

Shurikens w/ doom are 50% better than bolters w/ doom.

Only when Shurikens without Doom are 50% better than Bolters without Doom.


Here's the thing, you're thinking in terms of %, I'm thinking in terms of actual numbers. More opportunities to trigger AP-3 is an obvious advantage over just regular bolters
If you cannot see that, I'm not sure why I keep responding.

But as I've said, Doom is a good power but I don't think anything needs to change about it other than the obvious oversight of it applying to non-CWE units.
It's just too easy to take this good power and make it disproportionately auto-take.

-

How is that different from a Lt/Captain being OP when buffing Aggressors?

The straight increase in number of removed models with those buffs is higher than the increased number of models removed with Doom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bharring wrote:

Only when Shurikens without Doom are 50% better than Bolters without Doom.


The reality is that 12 hits means bolters kill 2 MEQ and shurikens with doom kill 4.5 MEQ.

Averages don't cover rolling hot with your dice and blowing away a unit - Doom just makes that easier to achieve.

How is that different from saying 12 Bolter hits kill 2 MEQ but 12 MeltaGun hits kill 10 MEQ?

Shuriken *is* deadlier to Marines within range - it's supposed to be better.

It comes in:
-12" range on a GEQ that costs twice that of a Guardsman - with the bulk of that cost being the gun
-18" range on a T3 4+ model at 11ppm - just 2ppm less than Marines for half the durability to small arms.

Shuriken per-shot *should* be deadlier. It's a lot costlier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honest Question:

All the math is done shooting MEQ, why not GEQ? Surely there are more shots against GEQ than MEQ?

Because most people complaining on the forums care about MEQ. In part because DakkaDakka has always complained about the plight of MEQ. Also in part because GEQ generally have mit much better right now.

As the armor save gets worse, Shuriken and Bolt get closer. Against models without a save, Shuriken does no more damage, despite it's shorter range. And that's while costing more.

So of course people compare Shuriken vs Bolt against a heavily armored platform: it makes Shuriken seem OP.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/04 20:30:37


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





sisters of silence as troop choice for custodes. please and thankyou
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





Bharring wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Spoiler:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Bharring wrote:
However, "reroll wounds" increases the damage Shurken weapons do to Marines by the exact same ratio as it increases LasBlasters/Bolters/etc; it's still a 50% increase in deadliness for to-wounds of a 4+. How quickly Shurikens delete Marines is separate.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss AP when discussing the potency of an ability to reroll wounds, especially when rolling a certain number does something special.
So indicating those 2 things as separate is kinda pedantic. I was illustrating that Doom on Shuriken weapons does more than reroll wounds for Bolters.

But to your point, I would only want Doom restricted to just Asuryani units if Knight Invuls are capped are 4++ as well.

-

This is actually inaccurate: Reroll wounds does exactly as much to the same throughput of weapons, whether it's Shuriken or Bolters.

Shooting Bolters at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed
Shooting Shuriken at a Doomed T4 target kills 50% more than non-Doomed

If it takes you N guys to kill something with Boltguns, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.
If it takes you N guys to kill something with Shuriken, it takes you 2/3rds of N guys to kill something Doomed.

The difference can be that it takes fewer Shuriken shots to kill Marines than Boltguns. But that should be wholly seperate from Doom. That'd be like saying a QuadLas pred gets more out of Doom than a Swooping Hawk - the increased amount it kills is more, sure. But you've increased it by a smaller factor (vs anything below T18).


That shouldn't be separate from Doom. That's half the point of the damned spell - to trigger more to wound procs.

Shurikens w/ doom are 50% better than bolters w/ doom.

Only when Shurikens without Doom are 50% better than Bolters without Doom.


Here's the thing, you're thinking in terms of %, I'm thinking in terms of actual numbers. More opportunities to trigger AP-3 is an obvious advantage over just regular bolters
If you cannot see that, I'm not sure why I keep responding.

But as I've said, Doom is a good power but I don't think anything needs to change about it other than the obvious oversight of it applying to non-CWE units.
It's just too easy to take this good power and make it disproportionately auto-take.

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How is that different from a Lt/Captain being OP when buffing Aggressors?

The straight increase in number of removed models with those buffs is higher than the increased number of models removed with Doom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Bharring wrote:

Only when Shurikens without Doom are 50% better than Bolters without Doom.


The reality is that 12 hits means bolters kill 2 MEQ and shurikens with doom kill 4.5 MEQ.

Averages don't cover rolling hot with your dice and blowing away a unit - Doom just makes that easier to achieve.

How is that different from saying 12 Bolter hits kill 2 MEQ but 12 MeltaGun hits kill 10 MEQ?

Shuriken *is* deadlier to Marines within range - it's supposed to be better.

It comes in:
-12" range on a GEQ that costs twice that of a Guardsman - with the bulk of that cost being the gun
-18" range on a T3 4+ model at 11ppm - just 2ppm less than Marines for half the durability to small arms.

Shuriken per-shot *should* be deadlier. It's a lot costlier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honest Question:

All the math is done shooting MEQ, why not GEQ? Surely there are more shots against GEQ than MEQ?

Because most people complaining on the forums care about MEQ. In part because DakkaDakka has always complained about the plight of MEQ. Also in part because GEQ generally have mit much better right now.

As the armor save gets worse, Shuriken and Bolt get closer. Against models without a save, Shuriken does no more damage, despite it's shorter range. And that's while costing more.

So of course people compare Shuriken vs Bolt against a heavily armored platform: it makes Shuriken seem OP.


Ok, but still, MEQ make up less than half of the likely infantry targets, while GEQ make up way more. Nids, Fire Warriors, Space Elves (Both types), Guard, GSC, Orks, these are all mainly GEQ right?
   
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I want an official bolter rule.

Hopefully with a change that helps assault and heavy variants too.

Heavy bolter could use a little love now that the Reaper chain cannon exists
   
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Heavy bolters made Rapidfire 3 and affected by the new bolter rules

 
   
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 BrotherGecko wrote:
Heavy bolters made Rapidfire 3 and affected by the new bolter rules


As much as I'd love that, I think having my Leman Russes spit out 18 heavy bolter shots each would be a bit much.
   
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 BrotherGecko wrote:
Heavy bolters made Rapidfire 3 and affected by the new bolter rules


In order for it to become rapid fire it would have to be rapid fire 2. 6 shots seems like a bit much, but if they make that change I won't complain.
   
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 fraser1191 wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
Heavy bolters made Rapidfire 3 and affected by the new bolter rules


In order for it to become rapid fire it would have to be rapid fire 2. 6 shots seems like a bit much, but if they make that change I won't complain.

Considering stuff like the reaper chaincannon being heavy 8, I'd say rapid fire 3 wouldn't exactly be game breaking but might make tac squads a little better.
   
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Dallas area, TX

From personal experience, even against GEQ, Shurikens are great. Most of the time even GEQ have a 4+ if in cover. Taking that away with AP-3 makes a difference.

Rerolling wounds makes that chance higher. There is an exponential factor in there that I just can't explain, but seems obvious.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Heavy bolters made Rapidfire 3 and affected by the new bolter rules
Yes, please YES!
Or at the vey least make them RF3 for Astartes as part of the Bolter Discipline rule

And actually, if they change BD the way I hope they do (make it +1 shot instead of double) RF3 HBs would need to get within 18" for the double shots. Standing still you would only get +1 shot.
So 4 shots if stationary, 7 shots if at half range.

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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/04 21:49:28


   
 
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