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Made in gb
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Bristol

 Frazzled wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Prejudice against mutants has always been irrational even in the marvel comics, that is what prejudices are.
But the biggest reason why Mutants are fears and not say, Tony is that, mutants vastly outweigh non-mutant super powers.

Why is it irrational? Its highly rational. In the real world, Xavier would be floating around, controlling everyone Apocalypse style.


Or he wouldn't, because just because you have the power to do something, doesn't mean you will.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Dominating Dominatrix






Yeah the whole "Being scared of people who can literally wipe out a city block with a thought is irrational" line of thinking is bizarre and illogical to me.

+++++There are currently NINETY FOUR (94) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++ (Discord: BaconCatBug#0294)
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY; and Scout Sentinels may use "Go! Recon!" to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the shooting phase.
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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Prejudice against mutants has always been irrational even in the marvel comics, that is what prejudices are.
But the biggest reason why Mutants are fears and not say, Tony is that, mutants vastly outweigh non-mutant super powers.

Why is it irrational? Its highly rational. In the real world, Xavier would be floating around, controlling everyone Apocalypse style.


Or he wouldn't, because just because you have the power to do something, doesn't mean you will.


Above statement goes against all of human history...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah the whole "Being scared of people who can literally wipe out a city block with a thought is irrational" line of thinking is bizarre and illogical to me.


(Frazzled with Magneto powers)
Gets off work early. Hits traffic jam on freeway.
Gets mad
Cars go flying...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 14:52:55


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Prejudice against mutants has always been irrational even in the marvel comics, that is what prejudices are.
But the biggest reason why Mutants are fears and not say, Tony is that, mutants vastly outweigh non-mutant super powers.

Why is it irrational? Its highly rational. In the real world, Xavier would be floating around, controlling everyone Apocalypse style.


Or he wouldn't, because just because you have the power to do something, doesn't mean you will.


So that one guy wouldn't because he's a paragon of virtue or whatever (except when he's controlled, replaced, corrupted or whatever). But an absurd number of mutants wander into the scene with powers flailing and no good reason for it. That the reaction for normals is negative isn't irrational or surprising. It fits perfectly with their experience and even without further manipulation (and there is some of that as well).

Including the X-men, who comics wise tended dig their own graves on the PR front- invading a rich club with no apparent justification (and several casualties) in front of a US Senator, and later conducting a pitched battle in the streets where the same senator's wife is killed by a stray blast.

They then just disappear into the night in both cases. No justification given, just (as far as anyone else knows) just random acts of violence and destruction.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Moustache-twirling Princeps




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah the whole "Being scared of people who can literally wipe out a city block with a thought is irrational" line of thinking is bizarre and illogical to me.


Because that's not the line of thinking being discussed. The actual formulation is "Being scared of one group of people who can literally wipe out a city block with a thought but lauding a different group capable of similarly destructive feats is irrational".

In a world where there are only mutants and genotypical humans, humans being afraid of mutants makes sense even if allowing that fear to evolve into prejudice and hatred is still unjustifiable. In a world where mutants are only one subset of powered individuals and genotypical humans are perfectly happy with most of them, even consider many of them heroes, then being afraid of specifically the mutants because of their power is ludicrous.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 17:54:37


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-----
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Wasn't that the point of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. season 2?
   
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Ok, I just saw Endgame. No spoilers, but think they can integrate the mutants into the MCU as an aftereffect of... what happened in that movie.

There was never a clean way to integrate the x-men with their existing backstories into the MCU, it just causes too many problems chronologically. However, should the MCU even bother? I say no - some of the backstories have issues anyway. An authentic Magneto backstory would cast an 85 year old man.

I would say reboot the x-men, right now, inside the MCU as a new, ongoing thing. It won't be accurate 100% to the comics but it really doesn't need to be. They're going to need to recast all of these characters anyway, so accept that the X-MCU is an adaptation for the screen for the comics, which is something we already do now - look at the origin of Vision, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and so on.

The Fantastic Four can be set at literally any time, so that's the easiest ask.
   
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Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah the whole "Being scared of people who can literally wipe out a city block with a thought is irrational" line of thinking is bizarre and illogical to me.

But only some of them - others are heroes to the majority because..................

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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Dominating Dominatrix






 Mr Morden wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah the whole "Being scared of people who can literally wipe out a city block with a thought is irrational" line of thinking is bizarre and illogical to me.

But only some of them - others are heroes to the majority because..................
Same reason why the US nukes are good and the Soviet nukes are bad. Humans with superpowers is fine. Non-humans with superpowers are bad.

+++++There are currently NINETY FOUR (94) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++ (Discord: BaconCatBug#0294)
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY; and Scout Sentinels may use "Go! Recon!" to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the shooting phase.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
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Not a superhero comic fan but just a casual film one(just going by what I see on the big screen). The X-Men, as it is, works well as a "gathering of superheroes" because there is a solid foundation for it; mutants and humans struggling to coexist with each other.

As enjoyable as Justice League and the Avenger movies are, they are basically a forced excuse for a load of existing super heroes to be in the same story because...I don't know, because its amusing or cool to do so. Charles and Eric are great as hero and villian, respectively, because they are two sides of the same coin and sum up the X-Men story; hope for the future and fear in the face of social challenges. Steppenwolf, Ultron and Thanos...they are really just villians of the week. Eric is there with us along the way to present a social challenge in each story...but those others...they just show up in a movie( or two, in the case of Thanos ) and not really do much apart from threaten the goodies and put the fate of the universe in jeopody once again.

So I'd much rather they keep the X-Men as it is. I watched infinity war the other night and thought it was actually quite good( much better than the previous Avenger movies and Civil War ) but more interested in seeing Dark Phoenix at the pictures than End Game. The later I'll wait until it goes cheap on dvd.

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Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah the whole "Being scared of people who can literally wipe out a city block with a thought is irrational" line of thinking is bizarre and illogical to me.

But only some of them - others are heroes to the majority because..................
Same reason why the US nukes are good and the Soviet nukes are bad. Humans with superpowers is fine. Non-humans with superpowers are bad.


Aliens are fine as well - and Gods and............. because?

But this guy here who is human he is bad because.....? Who exactly is telling people this? Where is the hate coming from?

How do people know that this girl is a mutant and not an alien or a enhanced being, or a experiment or a goddess.....or whatever.

Who exactly is making the case that this specific kind of non human is bad? If anything the case is being made that all powered people are dangereous - hence the Accords.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
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West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

I always figured humans in the Xmen comics are more jealous and afraid than hateful.



"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
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Well, it depends.

I mean look. How far did "hate" of "Muslim/middleast" get after 9/11? You just need a few people in power to play off peoples fears, some news networks to repeat it over and over again, and a portion of your population to fall for it for the government and private organizations to get away with doing some pretty crazy gak.

X-Men comics are full of senators, news anchors, talk show hosts, and mobs of people who buy into what they are selling.

Trask gets to build his sentinels because he plays on the fears of people. Its both getting himself a government weapons contract AND feeding his own fears and hatreds.

And it works. Just like it has and does in the real world when anyone is given any reason to play on peoples fears.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
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Outflanking

 Ouze wrote:


There was never a clean way to integrate the x-men with their existing backstories into the MCU, it just causes too many problems chronologically. However, should the MCU even bother? I say no - some of the backstories have issues anyway. An authentic Magneto backstory would cast an 85 year old man.


Well, I think that Magneto would be a pretty easy character to modernize. At his core, he is someone who thinks that mutants and humans can't coexist, because he has seen the worst humanity can offer and doesn't think that two different groups of people can coexist. So you just have to make sure that when it's "Us or Them" it's them that loses.

So, the holocaust is not an essential part of his backstory to get the core of the character. You can pick from a more recent genocide (say, Rwanda), and bring home points about the "good guys" not helping. Or even choose something (like Canada's residential schools, or Australias Stolen Generations), to make it be about the "Good Guys" doing terrible things.

Then present mutation as having been rare, but not unknown before, and exposure to Infinity Stones is accelerating it.

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A: A Maniraptor 
   
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Inside Yvraine

It's funny because your explanation for why the X-Men wouldn't make sense in the MCU is also why they don't work in the comics. Yet there they are...

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







I mean, it's not the first time people have really felt that the X-Men and Avengers-esque comics don't really fit together. - It is a point that's been made before.


Personally, I think the Arrowverse/Supergirl crossover style works, possibly using the M'Kraan Crystal or Gateway was a means to do so. Then Reed Richards on the Marvel end.


I can see the argument, "hatred of mutants, yet embracing powered Avengers is irrational and therefore it mimics the irrational hatred of people with different skin colour." It's a fair argument, and if that's the stance they want to take and is something they address in it as active plot points in a hypothetical future shared universe, I'm all for it.

My own stance though, is it quite feel right to me. Like, a Superhero shows up one day, stops a crime, is someone going to ask. "Hey, hold on a moment, are you a mutant or a mutate?" How do they know that Colossus isn't just a guy in an Iron Man-esque suit that doesn't fly.

Ok, Cap and Hulks histories are probably well publicised. How many people know that your friendly neighbourhood Spider-man was bitten by a radioactive spider, and isn't a mutant? I feel it kind of stretches things too much for my personal preference.

On the other hand, it'd be some kind of sad irony if, for example, the public writ large just assume that literally every powered supervillain is a mutant. And that kind of ends up fitting things.


I dunno, I have my preference but I wouldn't be internet raging if they are combined properly, if it's treated with logical thought on the impact of things.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






The issue is what the X-Men get involved with from the average persons point of view.

The Avengers show up when galactus, kang the conqueror, ultron are threatening the whole world and fight to stop them.

The x-men show up when magneto is attack people and fight while trying to reason with him. They attack a rich person night club. They, themselves, open up a portal to hell in the middle of NYC.

The X-men are both more and less public in that everything they deal with even when it's big in scale is often more personal, like 2 groups of friends having a bar room brawl but with powers that level buildings and cause wide spread destruction while also fleeing the scene and not answering to anyone or anything. The public doesn't really know anything about the x-men except what little they might (and mostly don't) say about themselves. John Q public sees mutants lay waste to all kinds of gak and doesn't care whose side they are on.

The MCU has kind of touched on this already. It's not just the government thats mad at the Avengers post Ultron. That lady tried to kill Jessica Jones because a building fell on her mother in the battle of NY.

Spiderman traditionally gets all the same kind of public hate until he, personally, turns that around. And then it's just the public liking that one guy, not a group of guys or a race of guys.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/03 02:25:17



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
 Ouze wrote:


There was never a clean way to integrate the x-men with their existing backstories into the MCU, it just causes too many problems chronologically. However, should the MCU even bother? I say no - some of the backstories have issues anyway. An authentic Magneto backstory would cast an 85 year old man.


Well, I think that Magneto would be a pretty easy character to modernize. At his core, he is someone who thinks that mutants and humans can't coexist, because he has seen the worst humanity can offer and doesn't think that two different groups of people can coexist. So you just have to make sure that when it's "Us or Them" it's them that loses.

So, the holocaust is not an essential part of his backstory to get the core of the character. You can pick from a more recent genocide (say, Rwanda), and bring home points about the "good guys" not helping. Or even choose something (like Canada's residential schools, or Australias Stolen Generations), to make it be about the "Good Guys" doing terrible things.


Well, that's certainly true, since it isn't part of his backstory or character at all when he was introduced. In fact, that took twelve years and an author change to make it into print, and had some issues, since in his second appearance he (and his lackey Mastermind) are using very Nazi-esque images in their conquest of some tiny made up South American country, and his constant refrain is that normal humans simply need to be destroyed or enslaved because of their inferiority (which is one of the reasons the 'why are mutants so unjustly persecuted' angle is so weird- they canonically aren't, Magneto and his cronies attack openly for openly evil villain reasons, and good mutants (the X-men) hide in the shadows and specifically _don't_ conduct a PR campaign about they're just people. The Marvel-verse spins on for a decade or so where the public face of mutants as a people is an evil villain ranting about how inferior normals are and how they should be killed or enslaved, and has a penchant for using his powers to control large numbers of bombs and even nuclear devices to blow things the hell up with his plans go awry. And this is without some sort of moral justification because of his childhood experiences coloring his perception of humanity. He's just, as the colorful sixties dialogue of Hank McCoy would put it, a bad egg.

Anyway, back in the real world, the sudden shift to Holocaust survivor gets some push-back in its own right, since 'victim as future abuser' (which is the picture this Magneto version paints) isn't something a lot of people are comfortable with..
https://popularcultureandtheology.com/2019/04/08/when-did-magneto-become-jewish/

It wasn't until Chris Claremont started writing X-men comics that Magneto was reinvented as someone with a complex backstory rather than a paper-thin supervillain with no particular motivation beyond domination and conquest for the sake of being evil.

And it wasn't even _that_ simple, because for a while (the 90s), Magneto was Romani, not Jewish. (And the article above doesn't handle this aspect well... as Jewish erasure is bad, but apparently Romani erasure is not). And at least one version was a robot, so... yeah. There's that. For one of the most popular villains of all time, there were times he was completely two dimensional, his motivations waffled all over the place, at times he took Xavier's place (supervising the New Mutants from the X-Mansion), and sometimes he was just stupid, dead, mind controlled powerless, a gunslinger and/or replaced.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/04 03:33:11


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Well you can blame the comics code authority for a lot of the 60s and early 70s bull gak.

The CCA had such bizarre and strict rules and all comics were dumb as feth because of it.

For instance, no comic book could have any mention of any real world criminal organization. So marvel just took 1 letter and moved it one letter up in the alphabet. Thus the Mafia became the Magia.

It wasn't until the comic industry decided to just ignore the CCA that things started getting good.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
[***]






Svalarheima, MA

The more I think about it, and the more we discuss it in this thread, I can see the MCU keeping the X-Men in a separate universe, with the occasional cross over, I guess?

Nil nos tremefacit.
 
   
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Dakka Veteran




 Alpharius wrote:
The more I think about it, and the more we discuss it in this thread, I can see the MCU keeping the X-Men in a separate universe, with the occasional cross over, I guess?


I'm sure Jen Lawrence would be up for such a gig.

Casual gamer, casual fun! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

Interesting to see Magnus had a few different origins. And I agree on the shameful way Romani genocide is completely forgotten by the public.

My suggestion:
Magneto was a young Kurd in the Middle East his family were killed in an atrocity but he was spared on account of his powers manifesting.

He was being turned into a super weapon by his government/tyrant who hated him. 'The Goodies' get wind of this and invade under pretences of a strike against illegal weapons of massed destruction.

Basically replace Magneto's origin from WWII to something more contemporary like the gulf wars (basically as above) or something even more modern like Syria (which may be too edgy).

On a separate note, mutants are basically already in the MCU in everything but name thanks to Marvel's Agents of Shield. There are empowered individuals with inherited 'alien blood' that develop powers given the right conditions, and the public hate them. There was even what was more or less an Apocalypse type story line (first of his kind, super powerful blah blah escaping his prison blah).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/07 04:59:52


 
   
 
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