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Made in us
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator





Holy Terra

It's called competitive gaming.

In friendly games the opinions don't matter as they aren't a stress for the rules and you can arrange whatever experience you want to have.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Galas wrote:
Stop adding layers and layers of FNP and invuls that make anti tank weaponry useless. If you want more resilient tanks give them more wounds.


I'm good with that also. Recon the Baneblade family to have 30 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:

There plenty of lists than can't remove T8 W28 with NO invuln in one turn. So I don't really agree with your analysis at all.


Wha... wh..

Why do we care about none viable lists?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 17:30:22


 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe




Reemule wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Stop adding layers and layers of FNP and invuls that make anti tank weaponry useless. If you want more resilient tanks give them more wounds.


I'm good with that also. Recon the Baneblade family to have 30 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:

There plenty of lists than can't remove T8 W28 with NO invuln in one turn. So I don't really agree with your analysis at all.


Wha... wh..

Why do we care about none viable lists?



Viable just means to work successfully, if you're insinuating it's impossible to win a game of 40k without one shotting a castellan that's not a good benchmark.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 18:14:46


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




The other side of that is your saying that a list is still working successfully when it doesn't.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






For the love of crap. We are back to this now. NEWS FLASH. THE SHADOW SWORD IS OP. It can go to a 1+ save with a -1 to hit for 1 CP and and 2 spells from CAF hq's. Putting out 10 HB and 4 LC and a doom cannon. If cadian it can hit on 2's rerolling 1's to hit for 2CP. It will murder any titan in the game twice it's cost. The Castellan was special because of it's ability to 1 shot shadowswords and take it's punishment and ignore it with a 3++ and fight at full power for 1 CP.

Do you know how popular the shadowsword was before the Castellan?


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
For the love of crap. We are back to this now. NEWS FLASH. THE SHADOW SWORD IS OP. It can go to a 1+ save with a -1 to hit for 1 CP and and 2 spells from CAF hq's. Putting out 10 HB and 4 LC and a doom cannon. If cadian it can hit on 2's rerolling 1's to hit for 2CP. It will murder any titan in the game twice it's cost. The Castellan was special because of it's ability to 1 shot shadowswords and take it's punishment and ignore it with a 3++ and fight at full power for 1 CP.

Do you know how popular the shadowsword was before the Castellan?



To qualify for the 2+ it needs to be shooting a titan and you need to have wounded the target with another unit first. SS was great. Still is. But it still can't easily ace a Castellan even with a 4++. Two of them are really obnoxious. I really expected to see them go up in points ages ago, but the Castellan hid them from view.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 20:13:27


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Made in es
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Vigo. Spain.

Exactly, people has forgotten about the Shadowsword because of the Castellan ,because the Castellan was just a better Shadowsword.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Pepperidge Farms remembers the Shadowsword.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator





Holy Terra

Yeah. The Shadowsword is still a top, top unit and it can be buffed significantly with effective psychic powers.

It dropped from use because it could not destroy a Castellan. Now? I'd say it comes down to who shoots first.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

How do you get a 1+? +1 save from Psychic Barrier, -1 hit from Nightshroud, and... what?

Take Cover only works on Infantry.

And the Castellan can also get a 2+ and -1 to be hit, without the ability to be denied.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
How do you get a 1+? +1 save from Psychic Barrier, -1 hit from Nightshroud, and... what?

Take Cover only works on Infantry.

And the Castellan can also get a 2+ and -1 to be hit, without the ability to be denied.

Now you're throwing out rediculous unqualified deflection.
If it goes imperial so no fight at top bracket strategum, no mortal wound save strategum, and no cawls wrath.

It can have -1 to at 18 inches warlord trait and a 2+ Save relic, congratulations but your now fighting a 2d6 S7 Ap-3 D1 plasma weapon with or S8 D2 overheating without access to re-roll 1's
While your shadowsword can still be whatever regiment it wants.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Jeezuz... what made the Castellan so much better then the Shadowsword was its ability to have a 3+ save against the SSs biggest gun. And could reroll 2 of them in a turn with Grand stratagest.Then as long as it was alive it could use a universal strat to shoot at full effect if needed. Thats it in a nutshell. The SS has no invuln period and once it was tagged by a Castellan it usually didnt survive.

On the other hand it took an awful amount of SS shooting to hurt a Castellian.

I spent many of a Game shooting 3 Shadowswords at Castellans... in most cases they survived to shoot at full effect for a round or 2.

So yea.. for a 600 point unit to be able to survive 1600 points of shooting at it a turn (designed to kill it mind you !).. is the reason why the SS fell out of favor for the Castellan.. it was simple math.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/08 22:15:35


 
   
Made in sg
Fresh-Faced New User




Martel732 wrote:
It's not lack of experience. It's math. Learn some. There's not that big of a difference between 3++ and 4++.


You need to take your own advice if you're going to snark on the internet. Dropping from 3+ to 4+ is a 33% drop in durability. That means you need only 2/3s the firepower as before to achieve the same effect when trying to damage it. And this is before factoring in CP rerolls on saves, which makes the difference even bigger.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






A 4++ is still good. but its 33% less durable. Thats huge.

 
   
Made in sg
Fresh-Faced New User




 JNAProductions wrote:
How do you get a 1+? +1 save from Psychic Barrier, -1 hit from Nightshroud, and... what?

Take Cover only works on Infantry.

And the Castellan can also get a 2+ and -1 to be hit, without the ability to be denied.


Even Shadowswords can technically get actual cover bonuses
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 zedsdead wrote:
Jeezuz... what made the Castellan so much better then the Shadowsword was its ability to have a 3+ save against the SSs biggest gun. And could reroll 2 of them in a turn with Grand stratagest.Then as long as it was alive it could use a universal strat to shoot at full effect if needed. Thats it in a nutshell. The SS has no invuln period and once it was tagged by a Castellan it usually didnt survive.

On the other hand it took an awful amount of SS shooting to hurt a Castellian.

I spent many of a Game shooting 3 Shadowswords at Castellans... in most cases they survived to shoot at full effect for a round or 2.

So yea.. for a 600 point unit to be able to survive 1600 points of shooting at it a turn (designed to kill it mind you !).. is the reason why the SS fell out of favor for the Castellan.. it was simple math.

Which it again needed guard warlord trait and CP to be able to do.
Once again the issue was allies, limiting the invlunerable to 4++, was needed and minimal effect on mono knights, but that 100 points is just taking the model way off ever being playable outside of a guard list.
   
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so a Shadowsword shooting full effect (volcano Cannon and 4 Lascannons) at a 3+ Castellan with a Trojen support vehicle Does on average 10 Damage to it. With Old grudges you do 12 damage.

So the reality it took 3 Shadowswords to kill 1 castellan. Thats actually with 3 trojens...which i never saw. Thats 1800 points to kill it... thats silly

 
   
Made in us
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 zedsdead wrote:
so a Shadowsword shooting full effect (volcano Cannon and 4 Lascannons) at a 3+ Castellan with a Trojen support vehicle Does on average 10 Damage to it. With Old grudges you do 12 damage.

So the reality it took 3 Shadowswords to kill 1 castellan. Thats actually with 3 trojens...which i never saw. Thats 1800 points to kill it... thats silly

Why are you just ignoring the Heavy bolters?
3++ isn't a thing, stop living in the past
If you put 24 wounds onto it for ~1000 points the rest of the list should be more than capable of doing the rest.
And you don't neee the trojen.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Reemule wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Stop adding layers and layers of FNP and invuls that make anti tank weaponry useless. If you want more resilient tanks give them more wounds.


I'm good with that also. Recon the Baneblade family to have 30 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:

There plenty of lists than can't remove T8 W28 with NO invuln in one turn. So I don't really agree with your analysis at all.


Wha... wh..

Why do we care about none viable lists?


Agreed, with just my beta codex SoB list I could kill 2 T8 28 would units with no invul with just melta and exorcist fire. And the SoB beta codex is a dumpster fire.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
For the love of crap. We are back to this now. NEWS FLASH. THE SHADOW SWORD IS OP. It can go to a 1+ save with a -1 to hit for 1 CP and and 2 spells from CAF hq's. Putting out 10 HB and 4 LC and a doom cannon. If cadian it can hit on 2's rerolling 1's to hit for 2CP. It will murder any titan in the game twice it's cost. The Castellan was special because of it's ability to 1 shot shadowswords and take it's punishment and ignore it with a 3++ and fight at full power for 1 CP.

Do you know how popular the shadowsword was before the Castellan?



To qualify for the 2+ it needs to be shooting a titan and you need to have wounded the target with another unit first. SS was great. Still is. But it still can't easily ace a Castellan even with a 4++. Two of them are really obnoxious. I really expected to see them go up in points ages ago, but the Castellan hid them from view.


Yeah I agree - with the Castellan in the house - it could not stand. Mainly because it's typically not getting a save against a castellans 2 main guns and never from it's missile. It is unlikely to survive a strong round of shooting from the castellan. When it was a 3++ - there were a lot of scenarios where the castellan takes little to no wounds against a shadow sword. So it fell out of favor. If castellans truly are going to fall out of favor (yet to be seen) the Shadows word will be a direct beneficiary. Other knights don't do nearly enough damage to 1 shot a shadow sword consistently. Also - with the 4++ only I think the shadowsword + 3 command russ shooting at 2+ to hit will pretty consistently kill a castellan + old grudges....

In my opinion the army benefiting most from the FAQ is Astra Militarium AGAIN. Mainly because instead of the Castellan - They can take the much cheaper Shadow sword and they can put even more points into super "efficient" guard units...and no more Ynnari to contend with. Really it was even more important to nerf infantry squads and CC than it was the Castellan. Infantry squads not being nerfed is such an extreme enigma....I have nothing more to say about it.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Dudeface wrote:
Reemule wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Stop adding layers and layers of FNP and invuls that make anti tank weaponry useless. If you want more resilient tanks give them more wounds.


I'm good with that also. Recon the Baneblade family to have 30 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:

There plenty of lists than can't remove T8 W28 with NO invuln in one turn. So I don't really agree with your analysis at all.


Wha... wh..

Why do we care about none viable lists?



Viable just means to work successfully, if you're insinuating it's impossible to win a game of 40k without one shotting a castellan that's not a good benchmark.


No, he's insuating that if your list can't do 28 wounds to a T8 unit with 0 invul, then your list sucks. Which is correct.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







 Xenomancers wrote:
Infantry squads not being nerfed is such an extreme enigma....I have nothing more to say about it.

You do realise this is going to get quoted in future threads when you do go on about them, right?

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Ice_can wrote:
 zedsdead wrote:
so a Shadowsword shooting full effect (volcano Cannon and 4 Lascannons) at a 3+ Castellan with a Trojen support vehicle Does on average 10 Damage to it. With Old grudges you do 12 damage.

So the reality it took 3 Shadowswords to kill 1 castellan. Thats actually with 3 trojens...which i never saw. Thats 1800 points to kill it... thats silly

Why are you just ignoring the Heavy bolters?
3++ isn't a thing, stop living in the past
If you put 24 wounds onto it for ~1000 points the rest of the list should be more than capable of doing the rest.
And you don't neee the trojen.


range

 
   
Made in us
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 zedsdead wrote:
so a Shadowsword shooting full effect (volcano Cannon and 4 Lascannons) at a 3+ Castellan with a Trojen support vehicle Does on average 10 Damage to it. With Old grudges you do 12 damage.

So the reality it took 3 Shadowswords to kill 1 castellan. Thats actually with 3 trojens...which i never saw. Thats 1800 points to kill it... thats silly

It's now a 4+ castellan. Plus you are leaving out 30 ap-1 shots RR all wounds. You are also ignoring +1 to hit Strat and the fact you'll be rerolling 1's for being cadian.


2+ RR 1's and reroll all wounds for old grudges....

Just the volcano cannon should average 3 wounds getting through. That alone is 21 damage. The lascannons and HB do the rest. The HB alone do 8ish wounds in this set up. Looks a lot like 500ish wounds killing 700 points for the cost of 2CP and a friendly wound getting through from a cheapo shot earlier in the round.

Honestly - Shadowswords were pretty dang good at killing Castellans before - it's just Castellans are a lot better against the rest of the field because they can split their shots up a lot better...are reasonable in CC and can be detonated reliably if you are losing the game and need a miracle. It's also not just great at killing titans. It kills all.
's


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Infantry squads not being nerfed is such an extreme enigma....I have nothing more to say about it.

You do realise this is going to get quoted in future threads when you do go on about them, right?

No I am officially done unless responding to a direct question about them. I am done. LOL.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 23:07:09


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

The +1 Hit strat is Vostroyan, unless you're talking about Overlapping Fields Of Fire, which requires you to first wound it with something else.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
The +1 Hit strat is Vostroyan, unless you're talking about Overlapping Fields Of Fire, which requires you to first wound it with something else.

Yeah I mention that. I mention them being cadian and getting a cheapo wound through,

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
The +1 Hit strat is Vostroyan, unless you're talking about Overlapping Fields Of Fire, which requires you to first wound it with something else.

Yeah I mention that. I mention them being cadian and getting a cheapo wound through,


You mention Cadian. You don't mention getting a cheap wound through with another unit first.

But, assuming you do, you get...

Main cannon has 6 shots
35/6 hits
1,225/216 wounds
1,225/432 unsaved
8,575/432 damage, or 19.85 damage

Lascannons have 4 shots
35/9 hits
280/81 wounds
140/81 unsaved
490/81 damage, or 6.05 damage

Heavy Bolters have 30 shots
175/6 hits
875/54 wounds
875/108 unsaved
875/108 damage, or 8.10

Total damage is 34, assuming you manage to get a wound off beforehand AND have Old Grudges AND use Overlapping Fields Of Fire AND get first turn (no fight at top bracket for Baneblades).

Going to anydice, odds of killing are just over 3/4. Assuming you get that wound off ahead of time-how you doing that?

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 Xenomancers wrote:


In my opinion the army benefiting most from the FAQ is Astra Militarium AGAIN. Mainly because instead of the Castellan - They can take the much cheaper Shadow sword and they can put even more points into super "efficient" guard units...and no more Ynnari to contend with. Really it was even more important to nerf infantry squads and CC than it was the Castellan. Infantry squads not being nerfed is such an extreme enigma....I have nothing more to say about it.


You may very well be right that without Ynnari there is no clean check to AM. I'm perplexed that they didn't up the cost of mortars like GSC, but I guess that's too small of a point change for a FAQ focus.

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Made in us
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In My Lab

Just for fun, let's do a Cawl's Wrath Castellan versus the Shadowsword!

Cawl's Wrath has 47/6 shots
329/54 hits
2,303/489 wounds
2,303/486 unsaved
2,303/162 damage, or 14.22 damage

Volcano Lance has 47/12 shots
329/108 hits
658/243 wounds
658/243 unsaved
4,606/243 damage, or 18.95 damage

Sigebreakers have 28/3 shots
196/27 hits
686/243 wounds
343/243 unsaved
2,401/729 damage, or 3.29 damage

Shieldbreaker has 1 shot
7/9 hits
49/81 wounds
49/81 unsaved
2,303/972 damage, or 2.37 damage

So with just the two main guns, the Castellan can easily wipe a Shadowsword. Anydice says with just the Plasma Decimator (given 8 shots) and the Volcano Lance (given only 3 shots) it's already got a greater than 60% chance of wiping a Shadowsword.

Add on the Shieldbreaker, and it goes to greater than 70%.

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my point was that the 3+ save made it alot better. Now with only a 4+ its far easier to kill. and like JNA above shows.. a SS with no invulnerable save will die alot easier to a Castellan then the other way around.

 
   
 
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