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Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut





Shadowsword becomes more viable, but doubt it becomes dominant. It is such a one trick pony unlike the Castellan who could do literally everything well.

I even believe its priced ok. The fact that it has no invulnerable, and has BS4 and no real stratagem buffs will keep it becoming ultra competitive.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Smirrors wrote:
Shadowsword becomes more viable, but doubt it becomes dominant. It is such a one trick pony unlike the Castellan who could do literally everything well.

I even believe its priced ok. The fact that it has no invulnerable, and has BS4 and no real stratagem buffs will keep it becoming ultra competitive.



This isn't completely correct. Vostroyan has quite a nasty strat.
   
Made in ca
Focused Fire Warrior




Canada

Martel732 wrote:
It's not lack of experience. It's math. Learn some. There's not that big of a difference between 3++ and 4++.



Huh???????????? 12 dmg taken on a 4+ nets 6 wounds and on a 3+ nets 4. 3+ compared to a 4+ is 50% increase in functional survivabilty. Once you add command rerolls to the mix 3+ is such a vast difference from 4+ it honestly makes me wonder whether you have actually played a game of 8th or are just very slow.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I already addressed this/
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Lets chill guys. A 3++ is basically godmode compared to a 4++ and a 4++ is amazing. Basically nothing in the game should have a 3++.

Not Gman - Not smash captains. Super elites should have 4++ and tough units a 5++. That is how it should work with the AP system the way it currently is.

You might notice units that have 3++ being spammed...and dominating competitive.

SS (with buffs)
Castellan
Smash Caps
DW vets
Custodian biker caps

3++ is basically the most common stat on non balanced units.
Also 4++ with 5+++ is a decent substitute for it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/13 19:32:57


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets chill guys. A 3++ is basically godmode compared to a 4++ and a 4++ is amazing. Basically nothing in the game should have a 3++.

Not Gman - Not smash captains. Super elites should have 4++ and tough units a 5++. That is how it should work with the AP system the way it currently is.

You might notice units that have 3++ being spammed...and dominating competitive.

SS (with buffs)
Castellan
Smash Caps
DW vets
Custodian biker caps

3++ is basically the most common stat on non balanced units.
Also 4++ with 5+++ is a decent substitute for it


A 5++ is basically useless on 2+ save models though, since you need to be fighting AP-4 out of cover before it even kicks into effect.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Audustum wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets chill guys. A 3++ is basically godmode compared to a 4++ and a 4++ is amazing. Basically nothing in the game should have a 3++.

Not Gman - Not smash captains. Super elites should have 4++ and tough units a 5++. That is how it should work with the AP system the way it currently is.

You might notice units that have 3++ being spammed...and dominating competitive.

SS (with buffs)
Castellan
Smash Caps
DW vets
Custodian biker caps

3++ is basically the most common stat on non balanced units.
Also 4++ with 5+++ is a decent substitute for it


A 5++ is basically useless on 2+ save models though, since you need to be fighting AP-4 out of cover before it even kicks into effect.

I think the eldar codex has 27 AP-4 options (don't remember exactly how many) Lots of armies have melta. AP-4 and 5 actually exist in huge abundance (too much for my taste). Not that I disagree with that 5++ is pretty useless on a 2+ save unit - I don't think that is a good reason not to remove 3++ saves entirely and scale down invos across the board.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets chill guys. A 3++ is basically godmode compared to a 4++ and a 4++ is amazing. Basically nothing in the game should have a 3++.

Not Gman - Not smash captains. Super elites should have 4++ and tough units a 5++. That is how it should work with the AP system the way it currently is.

You might notice units that have 3++ being spammed...and dominating competitive.

SS (with buffs)
Castellan
Smash Caps
DW vets
Custodian biker caps

3++ is basically the most common stat on non balanced units.
Also 4++ with 5+++ is a decent substitute for it


When was the last time you saw Hammernators or Sentinel Guard dominating a competitive battlefield?

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets chill guys. A 3++ is basically godmode compared to a 4++ and a 4++ is amazing. Basically nothing in the game should have a 3++.

Not Gman - Not smash captains. Super elites should have 4++ and tough units a 5++. That is how it should work with the AP system the way it currently is.

You might notice units that have 3++ being spammed...and dominating competitive.

SS (with buffs)
Castellan
Smash Caps
DW vets
Custodian biker caps

3++ is basically the most common stat on non balanced units.
Also 4++ with 5+++ is a decent substitute for it


When was the last time you saw Hammernators or Sentinel Guard dominating a competitive battlefield?

I'm sure he'll claim they would be playable if everything else just wasn't OP.

The simple fact is anything that is 10 times or more a guardman or 3 times a non infantry unit needs to be sporting a 4++ these days to be remotely competitive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/13 21:04:50


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets chill guys. A 3++ is basically godmode compared to a 4++ and a 4++ is amazing. Basically nothing in the game should have a 3++.

Not Gman - Not smash captains. Super elites should have 4++ and tough units a 5++. That is how it should work with the AP system the way it currently is.

You might notice units that have 3++ being spammed...and dominating competitive.

SS (with buffs)
Castellan
Smash Caps
DW vets
Custodian biker caps

3++ is basically the most common stat on non balanced units.
Also 4++ with 5+++ is a decent substitute for it


When was the last time you saw Hammernators or Sentinel Guard dominating a competitive battlefield?
They are a melee unit that moves at the speed of 5'' and hits on 4's with 2 attacks? Not sure what sentinel guard are. Units need to do things to be effective.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

As much as Xenomancers is prone to hyperbole he has a point. 3++ is something that shouldn't exist at all. And if it exist, it should be to small units that shouldn't be all that powerfull, or have high offensive outputs.

If you wan't big things to be more resilient give them wounds.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 Galas wrote:
As much as Xenomancers is prone to hyperbole he has a point. 3++ is something that shouldn't exist at all. And if it exist, it should be to small units that shouldn't be all that powerfull, or have high offensive outputs.

If you wan't big things to be more resilient give them wounds.


Archon with a Shadowfield is broken? Or Succubus with a 3++?


"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Mr Morden wrote:
 Galas wrote:
As much as Xenomancers is prone to hyperbole he has a point. 3++ is something that shouldn't exist at all. And if it exist, it should be to small units that shouldn't be all that powerfull, or have high offensive outputs.

If you wan't big things to be more resilient give them wounds.


Archon with a Shadowfield is broken? Or Succubus with a 3++?

The shadow field acknowledges the fact it is OP by allowing it to be only failed once and can't be rerolled for any reason - so it doesn't protect you forever. Not gonna sit here and describe every 3++ save in the game as it is obviously more effective on certain units. However - if invunes were turned down on the whole - the game would be in a lot better place. There is nothing more unfun or overbearing than units you can't kill. Lessons GW and the community as a whole should be in consensus about by now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/13 22:32:45


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




3++ on infantry is easy to overpower with dice.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets chill guys. A 3++ is basically godmode compared to a 4++ and a 4++ is amazing. Basically nothing in the game should have a 3++.

Not Gman - Not smash captains. Super elites should have 4++ and tough units a 5++. That is how it should work with the AP system the way it currently is.

You might notice units that have 3++ being spammed...and dominating competitive.

SS (with buffs)
Castellan
Smash Caps
DW vets
Custodian biker caps

3++ is basically the most common stat on non balanced units.
Also 4++ with 5+++ is a decent substitute for it


3++ on Shadowswords ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/13 23:44:11


 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





When did SS get an invuln save?
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Shinning spears with protect

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 Xenomancers wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets chill guys. A 3++ is basically godmode compared to a 4++ and a 4++ is amazing. Basically nothing in the game should have a 3++.

Not Gman - Not smash captains. Super elites should have 4++ and tough units a 5++. That is how it should work with the AP system the way it currently is.

You might notice units that have 3++ being spammed...and dominating competitive.

SS (with buffs)
Castellan
Smash Caps
DW vets
Custodian biker caps

3++ is basically the most common stat on non balanced units.
Also 4++ with 5+++ is a decent substitute for it


When was the last time you saw Hammernators or Sentinel Guard dominating a competitive battlefield?
They are a melee unit that moves at the speed of 5'' and hits on 4's with 2 attacks? Not sure what sentinel guard are. Units need to do things to be effective.


Custodian Guard + Sentinel Blade/Storm Shield.

So you're acknowledging that a 3++ isn't enough to make a unit broken by itself?

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mr Morden wrote:
 Galas wrote:
As much as Xenomancers is prone to hyperbole he has a point. 3++ is something that shouldn't exist at all. And if it exist, it should be to small units that shouldn't be all that powerfull, or have high offensive outputs.

If you wan't big things to be more resilient give them wounds.


Archon with a Shadowfield is broken? Or Succubus with a 3++?


if we were to go by what GW did to heed, then yes a shadowfield on anything is broken.


3++ on infantry is easy to overpower with dice.

well that is why the really good stuff is either too fast to be shot at, or is not infantry. castellan are no longer ++3, but when it was a whole army of storm bolters could be shoting at it for 5 turns and it still would be standing.
   
Made in de
Powerful Chaos Warrior






Audustum wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets chill guys. A 3++ is basically godmode compared to a 4++ and a 4++ is amazing. Basically nothing in the game should have a 3++.

Not Gman - Not smash captains. Super elites should have 4++ and tough units a 5++. That is how it should work with the AP system the way it currently is.

You might notice units that have 3++ being spammed...and dominating competitive.

SS (with buffs)
Castellan
Smash Caps
DW vets
Custodian biker caps

3++ is basically the most common stat on non balanced units.
Also 4++ with 5+++ is a decent substitute for it


A 5++ is basically useless on 2+ save models though, since you need to be fighting AP-4 out of cover before it even kicks into effect.


5+++ normaly refers to a FNP of 5+ for example the Custodes WL trait superior creation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/14 09:36:37


How the 9th edtion of warhammer fantasy should/could have been: Warhammer CE http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?373349-Warhammer-CE-the-definitive-rule-set-for-WFB-veterans 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 AnomanderRake wrote:

So you're acknowledging that a 3++ isn't enough to make a unit broken by itself?


Naah naah. 3++ is the problem. Nevermind units with 3++ that aren't issue. It's always the 3++!

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/16/tneva82-goblins-humans-and-elves/ <- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
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Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





tneva82 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:

So you're acknowledging that a 3++ isn't enough to make a unit broken by itself?


Naah naah. 3++ is the problem. Nevermind units with 3++ that aren't issue. It's always the 3++!


Clearly in isolation a 3++ means nothing, it feels like this is turning into a bit of a straw man. Of course the 3++ has to be on something dangerous. A terminator with a 3++ isn't too bad because Terminators baseline are kind of terrible. Knights are already decent, then a 3++ is problematic.

The fact remains that 3++ saves need to be given out extremely carefully because they have potential to be extremely problematic.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I wish Grey Knight termintors could take storm shields. Would make them much better.
   
Made in is
Courageous Beastmaster




Iceland

3++ on a Dire Avenger(for sake of argument) is nice to have, but will die quickly. 3++ on a huge ass robot that is already hard enough to wound is another matter entirely.

I would say that there were 2 units with 3++ saves that were causing issues and both had cofactors that attenuated the 3++ issue. First we had a high wound and high toughness walking fortress. It was hard enough to wound it with most weapons only for them to be negated by a few 3++ saves.

The other unit is 3++ Smash Captains. Although they are easier to wound they are harder to target due to the character rules so they often managed to get into combat.and wreak havoc and the targeting rule made it harder for an opponent to focus fire the model in question.

Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

As I said, 3++ is much less impactfull in small models that aren't all that offensively powerfull.


Yeah, a small HQ can have a good invul, or a bunch of weak troops.

But when people ask for 3++ and 4++ invuls in giant vehicles that are supposed to be destroyed with high damage high AP weapons I can't but crynge at the idea of how far the game has fallen into the rabbit hole.
Giving giant vehicles those invulnerables only make Antitank weaponry useless. At the end of the day youll end up killing those vehicles with extremely unpleasant and strange combos like the haywire, mortal wound spam, things like autocannons, etc...

And as others have said the problem with smash captain is that it was a character+3++ + an enormous offensive cappability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/14 11:52:22


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





I feel like a ++ of any amount on a heavy support or a Super heavy should come with an extreme points tax. You are already getting wound armor, high toughness. The ++ is just spitting in the face of the opponent, and frankly breaking the flow of the game. It's not one army against another army, it's one army against one model in your army.

I'm a big believer in the Baneblade variants method of armor. You got a model with over 13 wounds, you don't get an invuln.

It boggles my mind how the Telemon, and up are harder to kill then dedicated Armored vehicles.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
it's one army against one model in your army.


But there is nothing wrong with that, other than your personal preference against it.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




If Str, AP and damage of weapons were completely unrelated to each other, invul saves would not be a huge issue.

Unfortunately, since weapons are not abstract concepts but try to represent something in the fluff, it happens that a weapon with high strenght is likely to have high AP and high damage.

High wound models are countered by high damage weapons.
High T models are countered by high Str weapons.
High armor models are countered by high AP weapons.

This is not a problem, since those 3 defensive stats are also related, and a model with high wound will have high T and usually also mid/high armor. This creates that category defined as "heavy targets" which are countered by "heavy weapons". Up to here, everything is fine.

Now you introduce invul saves.
Invul saves counter AP.

Now, an invul save on a "light target" is not that big of an issue, since it protects that model from something that hurts it but which is not his direct counter.
A light target with an invul save is a bit harder than one without an invul save, It's a nice bonus, but nothing model defining. A guardman with a 5++ is not much harder than one without an invul.

An invul save on a "heavy target" completely warps the model into something else, because it will remove the expected counter of that model. Those high AP, high Str high damage weapons which are meant to take down those targets, all of a sudden no longer work. Even a simple 5++ on a demon engine, already makes the model much harder. 3++ makes it orders of magnitude harder, since you are now forced to go after it with weapons that were not made to tackle that kind of target, and yet are the most efficent ones because the "heavy weapons" are no longer working.

Tldr: 3++ is not a problem. 3++ on an high wound, high T, high save target is.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/14 13:07:19


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

What Spoletta said. Ear him. Those are wise words from a sage man.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Spoletta wrote:


Now, an invul save on a "light target" is not that big of an issue, since it protects that model from something that hurts it but which is not his direct counter.
A light target with an invul save is a bit harder than one without an invul save, It's a nice bonus, but nothing model defining. A guardman with a 5++ is not much harder than one without an invul.

An invul save on a "heavy target" completely warps the model into something else, because it will remove the expected counter of that model. Those high AP, high Str high damage weapons which are meant to take down those targets, all of a sudden no longer work. Even a simple 5++ on a demon engine, already makes the model much harder. 3++ makes it orders of magnitude harder, since you are now forced to go after it with weapons that were not made to tackle that kind of target, and yet are the most efficent ones because the "heavy weapons" are no longer working.

Tldr: 3++ is not a problem. 3++ on an high wound, high T, high save target is.

Yep, this.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
 
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