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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Originating thread got locked so I'm carrying this here, because it needs to be discussed.

tneva82 wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Chaos Castellan was never bad, in fact, it was great, but not great-great like the Imperium. Chaos didn't even have rotate just this past December.

But if it wasn't great-great, then did it need to be nerfed? The problem with castellans was that people could slam it in to a IG list and get a more efficient baneblade and fuel it with CP. Castellans, even the imperial ones, that were played in mono knight lists were breaking the meta. Maybe instead of nerfing the castellan, even for people that couldn't enjoy a IG+ravellan, they should have fixed stuff like soup and more specific IG being super efficient when anything that need CP to fuel it with them.


Why you talk about imperial castellan as justification to nerf chaos castellan? Chaos castellan was stuck with 4++ max from get go, no cawl's wrath, no companion, no krast relics etc. Totally different beast to imperial castellan.


I'm talking about Castellans being justification for nerfing the Castellan. It was never worth 600 even without relics.

** dun goofed **


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/07 13:13:32


[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




So you're just going to ignore the 10 heavy bolters that the shadowsword would also have?

And if you're going to give buffs to the castellan you're analyzing then you should also provide buffs to the shadowsword.

Also while we are at it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but some of your calculations for the Chaos Castellan seem to be missing out the invun, but its very hard to tell as you've not labeled any of your multiplications.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





secretForge wrote:
So you're just going to ignore the 10 heavy bolters that the shadowsword would also have?

And if you're going to give buffs to the castellan you're analyzing then you should also provide buffs to the shadowsword.

Also while we are at it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but some of your calculations for the Chaos Castellan seem to be missing out the invun, but its very hard to tell as you've not labeled any of your multiplications.


Gave it lascannons.

Hang on. I may have done fethed up.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




My issue is you had a model that due to its niche status was only used in a single application (imperium soup).

You didn't see it in Chaos, or in Pure knights, as it wasn't as viable, and its basically a CP hog.

Ideally the nerf should have made it more desirable in the lists it wasn't being used in, and less desirable in one it was over exposed in.

I don't see that happening with the nerf as it stands.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





So, they do about the same for cost under the consideration that both shoot a RIS Castellan. This doesn't account for the 4 melta guns or the stomps. Nor does it deal with a tactic or trait.

I will agree that a Chaos Castellan is now technically worse that a Shadowsword - by averages when fighting another Castellan, but that is the role of the SS.

The Chaos Castellan gibs the Shadowsword entirely and doesn't suffer a BS penalty when shooting at non-titanic units.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




As far as I'm aware, if you're taking the las cannons, you must also have the heavy bolters (or flamers). which brings it up in cost. But also means its more of an all rounder vehicle, having significant anti infantry firepower.

Admittedly yes when fighting each other the chaos castellan has a significant advantage, but realistically, its more who gets the first shot off, but sometimes that's just the way the game works. Units cant have perfect parity.
   
Made in ca
Wicked Wych With a Whip




My only problem with the knights, shooting knights especially is the stomps.

There is just no weakness, no down side since it has the stomps.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

Soup touched? No. Guard touched? Yes. Guard need something done to make them a more costly battery requirement.
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





Thing is, I can't think of a single superheavy unit in the AM list that has dedicated Strats like the Knights have. Call me crazy, but this isn't a AM problem. Nerfing the shield fixed the problem. Trying to ram an overpowered meta breaking unit into a tactical squad based game caused this. Not AM CP.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Thing is, I can't think of a single superheavy unit in the AM list that has dedicated Strats like the Knights have. Call me crazy, but this isn't a AM problem. Nerfing the shield fixed the problem. Trying to ram an overpowered meta breaking unit into a tactical squad based game caused this. Not AM CP.

AM synergy is amazing and every unit is points efficient. That’s what needs fixed. Knock the the synergy a little and ramp up some points. We won’t see batteries anymore. It’s not only knights. It’s custodes and other lists too.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
We won’t see batteries anymore.

You literally will keep seeing them until the idea of batteries are dead.

This is not nor has it ever been a Guard problem. It has always been a Command Points Battery problem.
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





Pain4Pleasure wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Thing is, I can't think of a single superheavy unit in the AM list that has dedicated Strats like the Knights have. Call me crazy, but this isn't a AM problem. Nerfing the shield fixed the problem. Trying to ram an overpowered meta breaking unit into a tactical squad based game caused this. Not AM CP.

AM synergy is amazing and every unit is points efficient. That’s what needs fixed. Knock the the synergy a little and ramp up some points. We won’t see batteries anymore. It’s not only knights. It’s custodes and other lists too.


WHAT?!?!? Custodes? Yeah, lets talk about the giant gold elephant in the room.

GUYS, CUSTODES ARE BEATING ALL THE TOURNAMENTS. I honestly don't know where you are getting this from, but Custodes are BOTTOM tier. FW Custodes are ok, but still. Anything with a half decent Psyker destroys them.

I suppose next up is that Salamanders are OP with their re-roll flamer shots and Necrons with their re-animation protocols? So OP.

Guard are undercosted, I'll give you that.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Thing is, I can't think of a single superheavy unit in the AM list that has dedicated Strats like the Knights have. Call me crazy, but this isn't a AM problem. Nerfing the shield fixed the problem. Trying to ram an overpowered meta breaking unit into a tactical squad based game caused this. Not AM CP.

AM synergy is amazing and every unit is points efficient. That’s what needs fixed. Knock the the synergy a little and ramp up some points. We won’t see batteries anymore. It’s not only knights. It’s custodes and other lists too.


WHAT?!?!? Custodes? Yeah, lets talk about the giant gold elephant in the room.

GUYS, CUSTODES ARE BEATING ALL THE TOURNAMENTS. I honestly don't know where you are getting this from, but Custodes are BOTTOM tier. FW Custodes are ok, but still. Anything with a half decent Psyker destroys them.

I suppose next up is that Salamanders are OP with their re-roll flamer shots and Necrons with their re-animation protocols? So OP.

Guard are undercosted, I'll give you that.

When did I state they were winning tournaments? Why are you typing in all caps? Are you ok?
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Thing is, I can't think of a single superheavy unit in the AM list that has dedicated Strats like the Knights have. Call me crazy, but this isn't a AM problem. Nerfing the shield fixed the problem. Trying to ram an overpowered meta breaking unit into a tactical squad based game caused this. Not AM CP.

AM synergy is amazing and every unit is points efficient. That’s what needs fixed. Knock the the synergy a little and ramp up some points. We won’t see batteries anymore. It’s not only knights. It’s custodes and other lists too.


WHAT?!?!? Custodes? Yeah, lets talk about the giant gold elephant in the room.

GUYS, CUSTODES ARE BEATING ALL THE TOURNAMENTS. I honestly don't know where you are getting this from, but Custodes are BOTTOM tier. FW Custodes are ok, but still. Anything with a half decent Psyker destroys them.

I suppose next up is that Salamanders are OP with their re-roll flamer shots and Necrons with their re-animation protocols? So OP.

Guard are undercosted, I'll give you that.


He's talking about Custodes Jetbike Captains in guard based imperial soup lists. You let the triggering stop you from seeing the point.

Also, pure custodes are a lower mid tier army, that isn't really even intended to be played as a mono-faction. The only real bottom tier codexes that are out right now are the SoB beta codex and Grey Knights, and even those have some very useful tools they can offer allied armies.

Also, didn't a list with like 1500pts of Custodes take top 3 in a major tournament recently?

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

ERJAK wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Thing is, I can't think of a single superheavy unit in the AM list that has dedicated Strats like the Knights have. Call me crazy, but this isn't a AM problem. Nerfing the shield fixed the problem. Trying to ram an overpowered meta breaking unit into a tactical squad based game caused this. Not AM CP.

AM synergy is amazing and every unit is points efficient. That’s what needs fixed. Knock the the synergy a little and ramp up some points. We won’t see batteries anymore. It’s not only knights. It’s custodes and other lists too.


WHAT?!?!? Custodes? Yeah, lets talk about the giant gold elephant in the room.

GUYS, CUSTODES ARE BEATING ALL THE TOURNAMENTS. I honestly don't know where you are getting this from, but Custodes are BOTTOM tier. FW Custodes are ok, but still. Anything with a half decent Psyker destroys them.

I suppose next up is that Salamanders are OP with their re-roll flamer shots and Necrons with their re-animation protocols? So OP.

Guard are undercosted, I'll give you that.


He's talking about Custodes Jetbike Captains in guard based imperial soup lists. You let the triggering stop you from seeing the point.

Also, pure custodes are a lower mid tier army, that isn't really even intended to be played as a mono-faction. The only real bottom tier codexes that are out right now are the SoB beta codex and Grey Knights, and even those have some very useful tools they can offer allied armies.

Also, didn't a list with like 1500pts of Custodes take top 3 in a major tournament recently?

Yes but he got triggered and entered super scary CAPS mode, so he missed the point
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Reemule wrote:
Ideally the nerf should have made it more desirable in the lists it wasn't being used in, and less desirable in one it was over exposed in.
Cawls Wrath profile should have been made the standard profile. The price of the castellan should have been increased with this in mind.

The Cawls Wrath relic itself should have been changed to something more in-line with other relics, like an extra wound on a 6 to hit or no overheating.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Having relics to not cost points was a terrible idea from the get-go, this is just an extreme example of that.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Barebones Castellan was the best super heavy in the game. Only FW Knights and that one I never remember the name Knight were comparable.

That was why he was nerfed. All the strats and relics did made the Castellan go from "One of the best superheavies in the game " to "Meta defining unit", and that was just toxic.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Crimson wrote:
Having relics to not cost points was a terrible idea from the get-go, this is just an extreme example of that.


Pretty much, same with warlord traits aswell.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






 Crimson wrote:
Having relics to not cost points was a terrible idea from the get-go, this is just an extreme example of that.


Free relics normally isn't a big deal, but they simply never consider scaling in this game. They're fine when they're minor and almost trivial on a normal character - but scaled up to bonuses to Knight weapons, it's completely out of whack.

 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Elbows wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Having relics to not cost points was a terrible idea from the get-go, this is just an extreme example of that.


Free relics normally isn't a big deal, but they simply never consider scaling in this game. They're fine when they're minor and almost trivial on a normal character - but scaled up to bonuses to Knight weapons, it's completely out of whack.

HAHAHAHA
say that to the new BL chainlord.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





ERJAK wrote:
Also, didn't a list with like 1500pts of Custodes take top 3 in a major tournament recently?
Spikeybitz lists Los Angeles GT.
Pre-faq Raven, pre-faq assassin, admech CP battery, a bunch of forgeworld custodes units and... valdor?, who doesn't even have rules afaik.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Elbows wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Having relics to not cost points was a terrible idea from the get-go, this is just an extreme example of that.

Free relics normally isn't a big deal, but they simply never consider scaling in this game. They're fine when they're minor and almost trivial on a normal character - but scaled up to bonuses to Knight weapons, it's completely out of whack.

Even with relics with less impact there are usually one of two which are always taken, and others might as well not exist. With points you could at least address that by making the worse relics cheaper.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





A.T. wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Also, didn't a list with like 1500pts of Custodes take top 3 in a major tournament recently?
Spikeybitz lists Los Angeles GT.
Pre-faq Raven, pre-faq assassin, admech CP battery, a bunch of forgeworld custodes units and... valdor?, who doesn't even have rules afaik.


Think he was talking about this one.

https://spikeybits.com/2018/09/a-list-we-didnt-expect-custodes-won-overall-at-nova.html

However even that isn't pure. It's got a CP battery, two primaris psykers, and a execution force+. So yeah, not pure Custodes. Also, before anyone says Callidus tanks or Telemon, those are broken as all hell, and unless you are supreme That Guy, you don't run them.
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Castellan is still usable but now a strictly mid tier, high risk unit.

Mine was destroyed turn one last week post FAQ by units that didn't cost anywhere near the Castellan. That's the reality now.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

 Ishagu wrote:
Castellan is still usable but now a strictly mid tier, high risk unit.

Mine was destroyed turn one last week post FAQ by units that didn't cost anywhere near the Castellan. That's the reality now.

That’s a good thing, means the FAQ worked. Can still dish out a ton of damage but can also fall easily.
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

It's too costly imo. The point hike wasn't necessary.

A Shadowsword with 4 Las cannons and Sgt Harker is now a better choice imo lol

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

 Ishagu wrote:
It's too costly imo. The point hike wasn't necessary.

A Shadowsword with 4 Las cannons and Sgt Harker is now a better choice imo lol

Then that’s what we will see. It’s also able to be taken care off it’s a healthy game
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





No, because of the 4+ shooting. It's got Guard disease, as where the Castellan is at least 3+. Then there is the difference in wound charts, ZERO invuln save, the model size is extremely restrictive, and finally a kitted out SS still only is really good at targeting other Titanic units. It sucks against most everything else.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Shadowswords I've been seeing are vostroyan with the stupid buff tank. That's 3+ rerollable.

There's nothing wrong with hitting on 4+ if the price is right.
   
 
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