Abaddon....is he worth it?

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**Eldenfirefly**

Anyway, its not the original question being asked in this thread. The original question by the OP was whether Abbadon was good on the tabletop and how he can be used...

**slave.entity**

So I went up against 3 knights with Abaddon, 90 cultists, a Lord Discordant and a ton of butcher cannon. Abaddon nearly solo'd a knight gallant on T1. Skullreaver and bloodletters took care of the rest. All 3 knights including the Castellan were dead by end of T3.

I had no idea Abaddon was such a beast in close combat. He took 14w off the Gallant in one round and he can spend 3CP to double fight since he has all four marks of Chaos. Feeling pretty good about him right now.

**Togusa**

Corennus wrote:
The new Abaddon is here! and he's.........not really the 10000 year old master of warfare I was hoping for.

for 240 points (tha's more than a Daemon Prince with Wings who is tougher, has better movement and has greater Strength) you get:

M6 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W8 A6 Ld 10 Sv 2+

So he has alot of attacks like he always did.....

Now special rules for him:

Dark Destiny: He has a 4+ inv save (noice) and all damage on his is halved (double noice!)

Death to the False Emperor. Yup got that

Lord of the Black Legion: Reroll hits for Black Legion units within 6"

Mark of Chaos Ascendant : Heretic Astartes auto pass morale tests within 12!

Teleport Strike. Yup got that..

Hang on, this guy is the WARMASTER of chaos, the biggest baddy below the Daemon Primarchs....and he hasn't got one special rule that a chapter master like Calgar doesn't have. One that truly makes him worth 240 points.....!!!

Ok his weapons are ok

Drachnyen is +1 S AP-3 D3 and every time you fight roll a D6. On a 1 Abaddon suffers a mortal wound and cannot fight with the sword in that phase. On a 2+ he can make that many additional attacks with that weapon. So you can potentially get 12 attacks if you roll a 6!

Talon of Horus. Shooting 24" Rapid Fire S4 AP-1 D3 botler dakkadakkadakkadakkadakkdakkadakka

Talor on Horus Melee S X2 Ap-4 D3 Now that's better. a S10 slicey claw.

But i'm still disappointed...

Abaddon is meant to be the most gifted powerful avatar of chaos. I'd hope he'd have a special rule to empower all units in the force or something. Or Terminators.

Instead he's a moderately tough, CC oriented tank who allows those round him to reroll to hit if they're black legion..

In effect he is a 240 point CHAPLAIN

He is an auto take in my lists, and so far no one in my local meta has been able to kill him. Three times I've slaughtered Roboute in CC with him and a sorcerer for support. He is a freaking baller when it comes to his role.

**nareik**

Iirc the Medusa lore is just derived from what happened in Andy Chambers's personal campaigns. Bound to be some funky stuff in them JJ was probably driving Abaddon that day (from what I understand written in the White Dwarf where JJ was guest editor and there was a temporal distort, they said they would some times swap forces).

**Xenomancers**

slave.entity wrote:
So I went up against 3 knights with Abaddon, 90 cultists, a Lord Discordant and a ton of butcher cannon. Abaddon nearly solo'd a knight gallant on T1. Skullreaver and bloodletters took care of the rest. All 3 knights including the Castellan were dead by end of T3.

I had no idea Abaddon was such a beast in close combat. He took 14w off the Gallant in one round and he can spend 3CP to double fight since he has all four marks of Chaos. Feeling pretty good about him right now.

You actually rolled pretty low compared to what he can do to a knight.

He procs extra attacks on 5's...and for 1 CP he wounds on 2's with his sword.

**slave.entity**

Wow... you're right. I completely forgot about VOTLW. I also totally forgot double fight and his halve damage ability. Just goes to show how strong he is considering how poorly I played him and he still ends up crippling a knight.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, how does he proc extra attacks on 5s?

**Abaddon303**

It's his compulsory black legion warlord trait. Death to false emperor on 5+ for himself and units within 6"

**slave.entity**

Oh wow no way. So with prescience or Dark Apostle he can trigger DTTFE on 4s?

He wasn't my warlord so I guess I couldn't have triggered it on 5s. I needed the the indomitable trait on the Lord Discordant so he could shrug off volcano lances. He ended up eating like three of them, before finally dying and buying enough time for skullreaver to chop down the castellan.

**Table**

I remember reading a article on the preview of 8th edition chaos codex and the author was stating how beastly the Black Legion trait is and this was a guy who worked at GW...………

The +1 leadership is ok.

**Abaddon303**

The +1 leadership is nice but kind of overshadowed by Abaddon's morale immunity aura.
The rapid fire when advancing would actually be worthwhile if it was worded similarly to the talarn doctrine and you could shoot rapid fire when advancing rather than turning rapid fire into assault weapon.
This would make advancing to get into rapid fire range more worthwhile. You're trading -1 to hit for an extra shot...

**Wayniac**

I think he's a must take for the +2CP alone. Then you throw his other abilities on top of that.

**cvtuttle**

Stux wrote:
Corennus wrote:
architect of 13 Black Crusades.

12 out of 13 failed, and the last was kind of a draw (albeit enough to get Cadia relegated).

So I'd expect him to not be great

12 out of 13 were steps to the 13th. The 13th literally split the galaxy in half and is arguably still going on.... You have an interesting standard for a "draw!"

**BrianDavion**

cvtuttle wrote:
Stux wrote:
Corennus wrote:
architect of 13 Black Crusades.

12 out of 13 failed, and the last was kind of a draw (albeit enough to get Cadia relegated).

So I'd expect him to not be great

12 out of 13 were steps to the 13th. The 13th literally split the galaxy in half and is arguably still going on.... You have an interesting standard for a "draw!"

people still keep peddling this idea that if he didn't make it to earth a black crusade failed. the black crusades where never about taking territory etc

**Daedalus81**

slave.entity wrote:
Oh wow no way. So with prescience or Dark Apostle he can trigger DTTFE on 4s?

He wasn't my warlord so I guess I couldn't have triggered it on 5s. I needed the the indomitable trait on the Lord Discordant so he could shrug off volcano lances. He ended up eating like three of them, before finally dying and buying enough time for skullreaver to chop down the castellan.

Yup yup.

3+ with prescience. I've been running 20 man CSM who get 3A each supported by Abaddon. Quite fun.

**Xenomancers**

Abaddon303 wrote:
The +1 leadership is nice but kind of overshadowed by Abaddon's morale immunity aura.
The rapid fire when advancing would actually be worthwhile if it was worded similarly to the talarn doctrine and you could shoot rapid fire when advancing rather than turning rapid fire into assault weapon.
This would make advancing to get into rapid fire range more worthwhile. You're trading -1 to hit for an extra shot...

I feel like with Ultramarines and Black Legion. They deliberatly made their army traits weak so they didn't feel bad when they get all the special rules support like GMan/Abaddon - special formations.

**xeen**

Don't forget, since he counts as MoN too you can heal him d3 wounds from the Nurgle strat as well. Plus 3++ from a Tzeentch sorcerer and/or a 5+ FNP from a Slannesh Sorcerer. He is full of utility. I am really like him on paper. Anyone else have actual examples of him in game?

**BrianDavion**

Xenomancers wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
The +1 leadership is nice but kind of overshadowed by Abaddon's morale immunity aura.
The rapid fire when advancing would actually be worthwhile if it was worded similarly to the talarn doctrine and you could shoot rapid fire when advancing rather than turning rapid fire into assault weapon.
This would make advancing to get into rapid fire range more worthwhile. You're trading -1 to hit for an extra shot...

I feel like with Ultramarines and Black Legion. They deliberatly made their army traits weak so they didn't feel bad when they get all the special rules support like GMan/Abaddon - special formations.

maybe I mean Black Legions expanded warlord traits and relics means even if you don't take Abby Black Legion is pretty tempted, weak CTs or not.

**Abaddon303**

Sorry but I'm not sure ultramarines being able to fall back and still shoot is comparable to the uselessness of black legion's trait?

**BrianDavion**

Abaddon303 wrote:
Sorry but I'm not sure ultramarines being able to fall back and still shoot is comparable to the uselessness of black legion's trait?

it's not but even without doing the special detachment dance we can take 3 warlords, and up to 6 relics.

**Neophyte2012**

Xenomancers wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
The +1 leadership is nice but kind of overshadowed by Abaddon's morale immunity aura.
The rapid fire when advancing would actually be worthwhile if it was worded similarly to the talarn doctrine and you could shoot rapid fire when advancing rather than turning rapid fire into assault weapon.
This would make advancing to get into rapid fire range more worthwhile. You're trading -1 to hit for an extra shot...

I feel like with Ultramarines and Black Legion. They deliberatly made their army traits weak so they didn't feel bad when they get all the special rules support like GMan/Abaddon - special formations.

I think that +1 leadership helps a bit If you run into the OP-ness like GSC mental onslaught etc.

**Seabass**

Xenomancers wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
The +1 leadership is nice but kind of overshadowed by Abaddon's morale immunity aura.
The rapid fire when advancing would actually be worthwhile if it was worded similarly to the talarn doctrine and you could shoot rapid fire when advancing rather than turning rapid fire into assault weapon.
This would make advancing to get into rapid fire range more worthwhile. You're trading -1 to hit for an extra shot...

I feel like with Ultramarines and Black Legion. They deliberatly made their army traits weak so they didn't feel bad when they get all the special rules support like GMan/Abaddon - special formations.

UM CT is incredibly good! What are you talking about?

**BrianDavion**

UM CT is second only to ravenguard and IMHO is better then ravenguard depending on the enviroment, if you have a table with a LOT of terrain and close urban enviroments, UM CTs are proably the best

**Xenomancers**

BrianDavion wrote:
UM CT is second only to ravenguard and IMHO is better then ravenguard depending on the enviroment, if you have a table with a LOT of terrain and close urban enviroments, UM CTs are proably the best

I'm sorry but that is just not my experience.

The ability to fall back and shoot at -1 for the units in question (it doesn't affect the units that really need it...TANKS) is not very good. It's easily the worst except for white scars which is similar but realistically more useful because it can stack with fly keyword to make you act as normal after assault.
Ignore cover is better, FNP is better, Salamanders is better, -1 to hit is better. The +1 LD aspect is ultimately useless too. I havnt had to take a LD check practically all edition because of the ancient banner.

**BrianDavion**

ignore cover is too situational IMHO. some games it's priceless other games it's useless

**Ishagu**

Abaddon is amazing. To think otherwise shows a lack of understanding of the game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
UM CT is second only to ravenguard and IMHO is better then ravenguard depending on the enviroment, if you have a table with a LOT of terrain and close urban enviroments, UM CTs are proably the best

It's only good when your units have been assaulted and not wiped out. Very situational.

Verdict? Mediocre.

**BrianDavion**

Ishagu wrote:
Abaddon is amazing. To think otherwise shows a lack of understanding of the game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
UM CT is second only to ravenguard and IMHO is better then ravenguard depending on the enviroment, if you have a table with a LOT of terrain and close urban enviroments, UM CTs are proably the best

It's only good when your units have been assaulted and not wiped out. Very situational.

Verdict? Mediocre.

true, granted non of the marine CTs are anything to write home about on account of only impacting a fraction of our army lists.. cause reasons

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

Xenomancers wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
The +1 leadership is nice but kind of overshadowed by Abaddon's morale immunity aura.
The rapid fire when advancing would actually be worthwhile if it was worded similarly to the talarn doctrine and you could shoot rapid fire when advancing rather than turning rapid fire into assault weapon.
This would make advancing to get into rapid fire range more worthwhile. You're trading -1 to hit for an extra shot...

I feel like with Ultramarines and Black Legion. They deliberatly made their army traits weak so they didn't feel bad when they get all the special rules support like GMan/Abaddon - special formations.

Funny enough, while both the Black Legion and Ultramarines may or may not have bad Chapter Tactics in full 40k, they become a couple of the better ones in Kill Team. Granted Black Legion's is still pretty mediocre since it doesn't apply to Cultists, but Leadership is fairly important if for nothing else than the Break Test. Plus, the Ultramarine second part is pretty strong given the rules differences and tight quarter of Kill Team. What I am getting at is that I think GW felt they were reasonable enough. Sure the Black Legion is pretty lackluster but at least it isn't the Word Bears. I am mostly talking about the original Word Bearer Legion Trait, but I don't see the new one being all that much better.

**Nightlord1987**

I think all the Daemon Primarchs should have granted full rerolls, especially since the Daemon Primarchs are all fast and forward, rather than sit and shoot. If Mortarion generated 3 extra CPs to DG armies, he would be so much more appealing.

**Xenomancers**

BrianDavion wrote:
ignore cover is too situational IMHO. some games it's priceless other games it's useless

Ignore cover is practically +1 AP to all your anti infantry weapons. 95% of the time you are shooting at infantry they are in cover. Plus you have units that grant bonus to your cover save. Falling back and shooting with a squad of primaris is merely a tactical option. You have a bolt pistol and 3 attacks with intercessor vets - you actually lower you overall damage output for a turn to use the tactic. Mostly it's just for preventing people from typing you up for free to hide in assault. I play 40 intercessors though buffed by GMAN so I really don't mine being in assault with 3 attack models rerolling everything. The only unit it is really good on is a shooty dread but even so when you fall back to shoot you are hitting on 4's or 5's for a regular dread...WOPTY DOO. Better than being entirely useless though. It's clearly bottom tier. Ignore cover is probably the best chapter tactic the marines have access to. Preventing 3+ from going to 2+ in an army they mostly spams anti infatry fire is a massive damage buff. 6+ FNP andf -1 to hit are the next best (FNP is probably better though with primaris marines). Salamanders tactic is good because you can actually spread out with your units and play the game but the end result is nothing really compared to GMAN. So you take the bad tactic and just suck it up. Same with BL. Abadon is so beastly and gives a full reroll to hit - that is your tactic.