Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Hes not terrible for buffing daemon engines ether.
Do you mind elaborating this?
I'm thinking of going hog-wild with demon engines in my next army (think venom crawlers, maulerfields and LoD).
Well venom crawers hit on 4's so a full reroll to hit in shooting is big on them. Also if you advance with them - you will be hitting on 5's BUT you will get to reroll 4's to hit also because of Abandons aura. Then there is always snergy when you take a lot of melee units and use them together because it increases their chances of attacking when you get counter attacked in melle. Lor Discordant added in there will make these guys reliably hit with all of their attacks in melee.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Abby v. Bobby G? Isn't Bobby G a Superheavy, and Abby is an HQ? That should make the match right there,.,,,
Edited for clarity: Bobby G is harder to get into lists, while Abby is almost auto-include on some lists.
IDK if that is correct. 400 points for super heavy aux with gman. Insert into any imperium list to get decent returns. Great with IK. Great with Ultras. He is basically plug an play. Make warlord to get 3+ CP and return on 5 +.
Abaddon requires you take other units. What other units do you take though? CSM? They are bad. Cultists? Ehhh - they start to add up in points for what you need to make them worth it. I find it difficult.
So, it all depends on play style IMHO. I can see some very enterprising play styles using rushdown tactics with Abby. It's not hard to surround him with cheap good cqc troops that eat gun lines for breakfast.
Certainly I don't think he's bad. I think he's great. Maybe even a little undercosted. However - his legion is pretty bad so the trade of for using him is really hard to gauge. For me it is anyways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/17 18:56:35
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
12 out of 13 failed, and the last was kind of a draw (albeit enough to get Cadia relegated).
So I'd expect him to not be great
Not true at all, every Black crusde he acheived his own personal aims. and much of the black crusades where involved in destroying Black Stone deposits at key locations.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Abaddon in the fluff and Abaddon on the tabletop are 2 different things.
Clearly, there are some armies where he doesn't belong. A Daemonkin build, a Renegades Knight build, a Soulforged Pack build, you can do better with other HQs.
But right now, the case for Abaddon is him + 3 squads of Havocs + Neolithic Crown. Take any combination of heavy weapons you want, reroll all hits, and get an invulnerable save on fearless T5 models. If you need to move forward, no penalty for heavy weapons. Anything that gets close enough to charge faces one of the best beatsticks in the game. Pair him with an Exalted Champion for maximum results.
Hes not terrible for buffing daemon engines ether.
Do you mind elaborating this?
I'm thinking of going hog-wild with demon engines in my next army (think venom crawlers, maulerfields and LoD).
I think you're better off with redundant discordants if you want to go daemon engine heavy. Abaddon can, however, drop in and cover them with rerolls to hit if they lose their +1 to hit, so it's really up to you how to tackle that.
12 out of 13 failed, and the last was kind of a draw (albeit enough to get Cadia relegated).
So I'd expect him to not be great
Not true at all, every Black crusde he acheived his own personal aims. and much of the black crusades where involved in destroying Black Stone deposits at key locations.
Well, they say that now. At the time they were simply failures though!
techsoldaten wrote: Abaddon in the fluff and Abaddon on the tabletop are 2 different things.
Clearly, there are some armies where he doesn't belong. A Daemonkin build, a Renegades Knight build, a Soulforged Pack build, you can do better with other HQs.
But right now, the case for Abaddon is him + 3 squads of Havocs + Neolithic Crown. Take any combination of heavy weapons you want, reroll all hits, and get an invulnerable save on fearless T5 models. If you need to move forward, no penalty for heavy weapons. Anything that gets close enough to charge faces one of the best beatsticks in the game. Pair him with an Exalted Champion for maximum results.
This. What Techsoldaten said. Abby works well only in more specific lists. He isn't quite a plug and play. CSM has gotten some buffs from the codex version 2 and Vigilus Ablaze, but you still can't be wasteful when you design CSM lists. And if you don't use all of Abby's strengths, then at 240 points, you are being wasteful. He works well in a shooty list. But then you have to design a appropriately shooty list around him. Designing such a list is not really that straightforward. The shooty units CSM do have, like Oblits, Havocs has some weaknesses you have to take into account. Like Oblits have a short range of 24 inches and usually prefer to deep strike in (which is another whole kettle of fish to consider). Havocs are long range but fragile as a unit (hence Techsoldaten said use the Crown). A shooty black legion CSM list takes thought and lots of practice. I think Techsoldaten has been playing this specific kind of lists for a long time, so he has the most experience with it. Its not just stand there and shooty everything to death. There are quirks and list designs to it you have to be aware of.
12 out of 13 failed, and the last was kind of a draw (albeit enough to get Cadia relegated).
So I'd expect him to not be great
Not true at all, every Black crusde he acheived his own personal aims. and much of the black crusades where involved in destroying Black Stone deposits at key locations.
Well, they say that now. At the time they were simply failures though!
Mostly I'm just having a friendly dig
So many people repeat that as FACT that I make a point to educate folks honestly I'm hoping ADB's Black legion series continues and we get to see what Abaddon's plan and goals for each black crusade WHERE.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I'm testing an Abaddon gunline with decimators, leviathan, discolord, and 90 cultists later this weekend. Should be 40 S8 shots at BS2 rerolling with T7/3+/4++ on the decimators and the usual goodies on the LD/leviathan.
techsoldaten wrote: Abaddon in the fluff and Abaddon on the tabletop are 2 different things.
Clearly, there are some armies where he doesn't belong. A Daemonkin build, a Renegades Knight build, a Soulforged Pack build, you can do better with other HQs.
But right now, the case for Abaddon is him + 3 squads of Havocs + Neolithic Crown. Take any combination of heavy weapons you want, reroll all hits, and get an invulnerable save on fearless T5 models. If you need to move forward, no penalty for heavy weapons. Anything that gets close enough to charge faces one of the best beatsticks in the game. Pair him with an Exalted Champion for maximum results.
This. What Techsoldaten said. Abby works well only in more specific lists. He isn't quite a plug and play. CSM has gotten some buffs from the codex version 2 and Vigilus Ablaze, but you still can't be wasteful when you design CSM lists. And if you don't use all of Abby's strengths, then at 240 points, you are being wasteful. He works well in a shooty list. But then you have to design a appropriately shooty list around him. Designing such a list is not really that straightforward. The shooty units CSM do have, like Oblits, Havocs has some weaknesses you have to take into account. Like Oblits have a short range of 24 inches and usually prefer to deep strike in (which is another whole kettle of fish to consider). Havocs are long range but fragile as a unit (hence Techsoldaten said use the Crown). A shooty black legion CSM list takes thought and lots of practice. I think Techsoldaten has been playing this specific kind of lists for a long time, so he has the most experience with it. Its not just stand there and shooty everything to death. There are quirks and list designs to it you have to be aware of.
That's generous of you to say.
But, honestly, Abby's strength is the rerolls. Surround him with guns and your army's firepower scales linearly according to S and D.
This makes it possible to cripple an opponent with overwhelming firepower from across the board. If your opponent doesn't bring enough guns with a 42"+ range, you shoot unopposed for a turn or two.
The friendly list I'm playing right now is included below. Note the 20 Lascannons and the 2x 30x Bloodletter Bombs. All I do is shoot at a distance while the Chainlord and Cultists seize objectives. Then I bring in Daemons to clear off entire sections of the board.
There's no reason Abaddon absolutely has to move (unless something gets close enough to charge.) The lascannons get more done than he can in close combat so long as he's standing nearby. Compare this with other melee units. What legion unit hits at anything near S9 AP-3 D6? Nothing Abaddon is going to keep up with.
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
+ HQ +
Abaddon the Despoiler
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack: 2. Flames of Spite, Chainsword, Ghorisvex's Teeth, Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Warlord
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: No Chaos Mark . 14x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun . Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists: No Chaos Mark . 14x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun . Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists: No Chaos Mark . 14x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun . Cultist Champion: Autogun
my best friend uses Abandon in a list with two Lord discordant, 3 units of havocs, and 3 defilers.
Abbadon is the anchor that the entire list is playing around. He gives really nice buffs to the 12 havoc reaper chain guns, and he makes sure that you feel it. Vs the firepower in the list, and the Discordant Lords able to buff the demon engines, you have to move to engage the list, as the stupid master of possession is going to give everything +1 to their demon saves.
It makes for a tough nut to crack, the list is somewhat weaker to flyers, but if you arent rocking a -3 to hit, with a -2 being common, that list will flat out put you in the dirt. To make matters even more difficult, if you dare get close to his precious havocs, daddy abby will come and make sure you dont do that again...
Abaddon the Despoiler [12 PL, 2CP, 240pts]: Warlord
Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Cursed Earth, Force stave, No Chaos Mark, Sacrifice
Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Cursed Earth, Force stave, No Chaos Mark, Sacrifice
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 75pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 85pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon
++ Total: [104 PL, 2CP, 1,982pts] ++
so far he has been winning a lot of games with it. Abbadon just gives that list so much late game punch. It also gives it a huge CP bonus and i think the list rocks 12CP. Thats no small amount.
In that list above, you could exchange the position from abby and make the CSM into RC if you would ever need more CP (point beeing though why would you inbetween Abby boost and a battalion and BF), overall, this list is nasty and probably the parade exemple of why CSM equipment has the pricetag it has.
Added salt in the wound, with two MoP the Daemon engines get alot more durable.
Caveat your friend could give the LD's mark of khorne for double fighting shenanigans, if need would ever arise.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Alone, without granting buffs to units, he can be so easily supercharged and kill EVERYTHING he runs into. +1 wound, fight twice, etc etc. He takes a LOT of punishment back, many many units and lists simply cannot or have extreme difficulty in taking him off. 8, wounds, 2+4++(3++)(5+++) at T5 halving wounds. A beast. And he puts out even more than he can take.
Against a knight in combat, with vets + prescience, 2 autoinclude buffs, he does- 9~ hits with claw, (4+ generates extra, rr all, 7.5 wounds, 15 damage. Then 3.5 sword attacks, say 6 hits, 3 wounds, 9 dmg. Dead knight, that's on rounding down. And he can fight twice.
He then has a nasty shooting weapon, and buffs up troops combat to crazy levels. I played against some buffed zerkers yesterday who become just MENTAL.
His ability to make shooting crazy doesn't even need to be mentioned.
Not Online!!! wrote: In that list above, you could exchange the position from abby and make the CSM into RC if you would ever need more CP (point beeing though why would you inbetween Abby boost and a battalion and BF), overall, this list is nasty and probably the parade exemple of why CSM equipment has the pricetag it has.
Added salt in the wound, with two MoP the Daemon engines get alot more durable.
Caveat your friend could give the LD's mark of khorne for double fighting shenanigans, if need would ever arise.
And he totally does.
He switches up the units. Sometimes it has a demon prince with wings and a mark to kill flyers, sometimes everything is all khorne on the discordant. It's just tough for him to nail it down precisely, but I'll say this: this list is NO JOKE. right now I'm his most difficult matchup, because of the flyers, but between VotLW and DF, the things this list can do to a soup player can only be Described with a doll and a therapist.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Actually, why does he run double MOP ? In case one dies? You can only cast cursed earth and infernal power once... @_@
maybee he lives in a sniper infested area?
considering the Vindicares are now somewhat running wild i'd imagine better safe then sorry in such a castle build is the name of the game.
Not Online!!! wrote: In that list above, you could exchange the position from abby and make the CSM into RC if you would ever need more CP (point beeing though why would you inbetween Abby boost and a battalion and BF), overall, this list is nasty and probably the parade exemple of why CSM equipment has the pricetag it has.
Added salt in the wound, with two MoP the Daemon engines get alot more durable.
Caveat your friend could give the LD's mark of khorne for double fighting shenanigans, if need would ever arise.
And he totally does.
He switches up the units. Sometimes it has a demon prince with wings and a mark to kill flyers, sometimes everything is all khorne on the discordant. It's just tough for him to nail it down precisely, but I'll say this: this list is NO JOKE. right now I'm his most difficult matchup, because of the flyers, but between VotLW and DF, the things this list can do to a soup player can only be Described with a doll and a therapist.
The only real counter against this would be a recyclable horde.
That or artillery and Psy shenanigans.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/18 14:25:10
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Actually, why does he run double MOP ? In case one dies? You can only cast cursed earth and infernal power once... @_@
Because every imperium list in our meta is testing tripple vindicare lists and he dies very easy and too early in some matchups depending on terrain.
It's a concession to the ridiculous 85 point murder bot.
In other games, he gets to play forward hard and smite, and he can stratagem to drop a power if it's not needed *I think*. He also can be risked and use himself as a sacrifice Target if he needs the hp gains for a defiler or Lord discordant.
Having two has been solid, even if they are resundant.
12 out of 13 failed, and the last was kind of a draw (albeit enough to get Cadia relegated).
So I'd expect him to not be great
Not true at all, every Black crusde he acheived his own personal aims. and much of the black crusades where involved in destroying Black Stone deposits at key locations.
You're aware this is state after five retcons of Armless in a row, yes? Some of which made him look even dumber than simply losing (after all, he is fighting galactic scale state), like the one where he wasted tens of thousands of CSM (and billions of mortal followers) to simply piss on a grave of random Saint, or the other one where he collected skulls for Tzeentch (!) somehow expecting it to work (how Khorne didn't explode right there at an affront of his preferred offering being given to his greatest enemy and didn't smacked Abaddoff on the spot we'll never know, I guess). And that' without considering things like 10th Black Crusade being stopped by a fraction of single SM chapter...
Well, the current state of his fluff is every Crusade was successful with his last one tearing the Galaxy in half and bringing Chaos over half of the Imperium. I'd say that's more than anyone else has achieved in 40K aside from the Emperor himself. The Emperor died, though, Abaddon is still around
Except it's not a retcon. The "Black Crusades are a failure" has always been stated as an Imperial pov in the fluff because they don't understand the actual reasons for each crusade. The original BFG book was clear about this and even way back in the 2nd Ed Codex it was hinted at with stating that each time he obtained something such as Drach'nyen.
It's important to remember that the idea of Codex fluff being written from a non-Imperial pov wasn't always a thing
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/18 23:14:04
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
12 out of 13 failed, and the last was kind of a draw (albeit enough to get Cadia relegated).
So I'd expect him to not be great
Not true at all, every Black crusde he acheived his own personal aims. and much of the black crusades where involved in destroying Black Stone deposits at key locations.
You're aware this is state after five retcons of Armless in a row, yes? Some of which made him look even dumber than simply losing (after all, he is fighting galactic scale state), like the one where he wasted tens of thousands of CSM (and billions of mortal followers) to simply piss on a grave of random Saint, or the other one where he collected skulls for Tzeentch (!) somehow expecting it to work (how Khorne didn't explode right there at an affront of his preferred offering being given to his greatest enemy and didn't smacked Abaddoff on the spot we'll never know, I guess). And that' without considering things like 10th Black Crusade being stopped by a fraction of single SM chapter...
said random saint was prophicized to return and defeat him later on, stopping that isn't a victory now?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Platuan4th wrote: Except it's not a retcon. The "Black Crusades are a failure" has always been stated as an Imperial pov in the fluff because they don't understand the actual reasons for each crusade. The original BFG book was clear about this and even way back in the 2nd Ed Codex it was hinted at with stating that each time he obtained something such as Drach'nyen.
It's important to remember that the idea of Codex fluff being written from a non-Imperial pov wasn't always a thing
For some reason I see Homer Simpson in guardsman uniform saying, "Abbadon is crashing a blackstone fortress into Cadia. It's still good! It's still good! Abbadon ripped the Imperium in half. It's still good! It's still good!"
For some reason I see Homer Simpson in guardsman uniform saying, "Abbadon is crashing a blackstone fortress into Cadia. It's still good! It's still good! Abbadon ripped the Imperium in half. It's still good! It's still good!"
Imperial saints don't need their bones to resurect though.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
BrianDavion wrote: said random saint was prophicized to return and defeat him later on, stopping that isn't a victory now?
See, this is fairly weak prophecy if you can stop it a few thousand years early by having a little sightseeing trip to pee on a grave while billions of your soldiers die pointlessly. In fact, it would be fairly ironic if the "defeat" was about Abby wasting colossal resources to get him and the prophecy was simply misunderstood.
Moreover, in the end, it did nothing as another Saint (Celestine) shown up instead. So, either the dead one was orders of magnitude more powerful (which would be weird since he was significantly less important), or Abaddoo would need to climb to new heights of incompetence to die to a single human (not unlikely, given he shown his back to Celestine setting up perfect backstab just to gloat at Creed). And anyway, aren't Saints supposed to be a warp constructs? How desecrating a few bones (that should have decomposed millennia ago, anyway) is supposed to stop them from arising? Other Saints didn't exactly needed their former bodies to appear...
Platuan4th wrote: Except it's not a retcon. The "Black Crusades are a failure" has always been stated as an Imperial pov in the fluff because they don't understand the actual reasons for each crusade. The original BFG book was clear about this and even way back in the 2nd Ed Codex it was hinted at with stating that each time he obtained something such as Drach'nyen.
It's important to remember that the idea of Codex fluff being written from a non-Imperial pov wasn't always a thing
I am sorry, even after all the retcons the combined might of Black Legion and Iron Warriors still failed to take Medusa despite it being garrisoned by token IH force, and both legions ran when the main force of IH rushed back. This is beyond failure, this is looking sillier than My Little Pony villain. And, sadly, I'd even say about half of these are scarier than Abaddoff, ADB constant propping up efforts notwithstanding.
I really don't get why the dumb quests Armless had needed to be tacked on to Black Crusades. Simply make him do some sneaking between crusades to obtain his fancy cutlery instead of wasting billions of soldiers to gain a poking stick, and instead make BCs about training new forces, trying new tactics and gear, and finally appeasing gods demanding bloodshed with pointless slaughter lest they withdraw their favour. That would also fit the setting better and make it darker - by pointing out they had no purpose or reason behind them but the whims of bloodthirsty monsters, instead of being some sunday morning cartoon villain lost & found trip.
If anything, the only real Black Crusades should be 12th (being first serious attempt at conquering the Imperium once all the planning was in place) and 13th (being second after losses from 12th were replaced), none of this "I did all the battling to pee on a grave of a saint like it even mattered" nonsense we got instead.
The only real counter against this would be a recyclable horde.
That or artillery and Psy shenanigans.
Negatives to hit are really tough against him too. Alaitoc is hard for him to handle and you called it with Psy shenanigans, and he has no defense vs mortal wounds.
After that though, he brought that list the weekend the Discordant was released to an ITC tournament, and he WRECKED everyone but a really cagey AM player that got to go first and got some pretty incredible dice, and an Eldar player playing a scorpion and soup (the reason he lost to the soup player was doom with DE. That and the DE player could vect the turn one advance and charge, now that he can make those detachments Red Corsairs and they lord now get the benefits of the chapter/faction, that's not an issue. I actually think that the game would have been 100% different.) He DECIMATED all three soup players he touched. I mean, it was bad. (and they were NOT bad players, they were solid).
It has a few weaknesses, for sure, and a cagey player can really play some games with positioning because everything in his army is freaking huge, but over the weekend and the practice games since I have seen that list do all manner of horrible things to many different lists
Platuan4th wrote: Except it's not a retcon. The "Black Crusades are a failure" has always been stated as an Imperial pov in the fluff because they don't understand the actual reasons for each crusade. The original BFG book was clear about this and even way back in the 2nd Ed Codex it was hinted at with stating that each time he obtained something such as Drach'nyen.
It's important to remember that the idea of Codex fluff being written from a non-Imperial pov wasn't always a thing
I am sorry, even after all the retcons the combined might of Black Legion and Iron Warriors still failed to take Medusa despite it being garrisoned by token IH force, and both legions ran when the main force of IH rushed back. This is beyond failure, this is looking sillier than My Little Pony villain. And, sadly, I'd even say about half of these are scarier than Abaddoff, ADB constant propping up efforts notwithstanding.
I really don't get why the dumb quests Armless had needed to be tacked on to Black Crusades. Simply make him do some sneaking between crusades to obtain his fancy cutlery instead of wasting billions of soldiers to gain a poking stick, and instead make BCs about training new forces, trying new tactics and gear, and finally appeasing gods demanding bloodshed with pointless slaughter lest they withdraw their favour. That would also fit the setting better and make it darker - by pointing out they had no purpose or reason behind them but the whims of bloodthirsty monsters, instead of being some sunday morning cartoon villain lost & found trip.
If anything, the only real Black Crusades should be 12th (being first serious attempt at conquering the Imperium once all the planning was in place) and 13th (being second after losses from 12th were replaced), none of this "I did all the battling to pee on a grave of a saint like it even mattered" nonsense we got instead.
Read up on the term Xanatos Gambit, you may understand afterwards.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
All these claims that Abaddon had to be 'retconned' to be cool just prove the sheer ignorance of 99% of 'failbaddon the armless' posters, who mostly come off like they're copy and pasting old /tg/ memes. It's almost as bad as Imperial Guard fanboysim, something which I hope is one day made illegal and punishable by court marshal.
honestly I'm hoping ADB's Black legion series continues and we get to see what Abaddon's plan and goals for each black crusade WHERE.
Some of which made him look even dumber than simply losing (after all, he is fighting galactic scale state), like the one where he wasted tens of thousands of 
