[Kings of War] Third Edition - Oct 2019

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**Schmendrick**

As I have the Vanguard objectives already, and have Frostgrave Treasure tokens that can be used as loot/bluff counters, this isn't for me. A slim rulebook is something I'd also like.

Yeah. I mean, I would love to give them my money, but I dont really see the value in those Editions?
If you are a Fanboy and got those Vanguard Objectives, it does not make sense to get them. And in the other box you do not get the digital rulebook! o_0
And I would love to have that Dice-Holder, but the Diorama...
well, anyway, I guess I will get the retail version then.

Do you think there will be a new nerve system requiring different dice, or are these just pretty dice for collectors?

I think those are just pretty dice!

**Boss Salvage**

Schmendrick wrote:
Do you think there will be a new nerve system requiring different dice, or are these just pretty dice for collectors?
I think those are just pretty dice!

I've seen confirmation that they are, indeed, just fancy dice. Proprietary dice FTL.

**amazingturtles**

I'm glad about that, the last thing i need around is more dice that can only be used for one game.

**Scythern**

Yeah thats good to know, both in that we aren't expecting wacky changes for the sake of it, and also in the sense that we are not being pushed into buying special six sided cubes

**lord_blackfang**

Might be spindown d20s, that sounds the most useful for nerve tracking.

I am sure it will still be the same game, just cleaned up in places and expanded with more units etc.

**Shrapnelsmile**

I'd like to see KoW resurgence in my area, although 15mm is much preferred for me in rank & File games.

**Scythern**

https://www.manticgames.com/news/key-rules-changes-in-kings-of-war-third-edition/

Some good info on the blog today (any of you on facebook are probably way ahead of me). Generally, I have to say it all sounds fantastic. Sensible proportionate rules changes in terms of forcing engagements and blocking, hill bonuses are in my opinion, well overdue, and the auras sound like a nice way to mix it up.
I even liked some of the jokes!

**Ancestral Hamster**

From the 11 Sept 2019 Mantic Blog

” I HATE THIS GAME! I QUIT AND WILL IMMEDIATELY SHOOT MY MINIATURES INTO SPACE NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN.”

I know some one like this: I guess this personality type is more common in gaming than I thought. The only reason he will not do this with his KoW miniatures as he has pretty much given up on KoW because he can't win and so will not see the changes to 3rd ed which would cause the frothing overreaction.

**DarkBlack**

Ancestral Hamster wrote:
From the 11 Sept 2019 Mantic Blog

” I HATE THIS GAME! I QUIT AND WILL IMMEDIATELY SHOOT MY MINIATURES INTO SPACE NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN.”
I know some one like this: I guess this personality type is more common in gaming than I thought. The only reason he will not do this with his KoW miniatures as he has pretty much given up on KoW because he can't win and so will not see the changes to 3rd ed which would cause the frothing overreaction.

That's one of the best things about KoW. The balance means that "that guy" can't win by cheesing, so loses interest and goes away.

**Sarouan**

Seems like the first people received their book and the Fanatic facebook page is already burning with fanboyz blaming the "negative posters" to say "mean things" about the 3rd edition. Looks like a lot of stuff disappeared / was nerfed into oblivion and some players are angry their previous army doesn't work anymore.

Sounds familiar, I know, which is why I laughed at this meme :

So, what do you think here ? Don't worry, there is no admin trying to shut your opinion up if you're not totally positive about the new rules.

**Boss Salvage**

Funny meme is funny

Sarouan wrote:
Looks like a lot of stuff disappeared / was nerfed into oblivion and some players are angry their previous army doesn't work anymore.

I actually think it's impressive how those 'missing units' were remixed, repurposed, or removed because they were redundant entries or invalidated by actual Mantic models / much more powerful rules. Once Armies of Pannithor hits we'll be able to have a more legit discussion about how many units were actually axed.

Hank Williams wrote:I was looking over the new rulebook and noted what units have been removed since second edition.

Penitents

Normal Paladins on Dragons

Paladins on Griffins

Mounted Dictators

The Spirit of Valandor

Domitus

Herneas the Hunter

Ranger Captain

Banick Kholearm

Craggoth

La’theal Silverheart

Flaxhoof

Agnih-Bahnu

Normal Giants

Siege Masters

Nomagarok

Placodem Defenders

Overmasters on normal Abyssal Dragons

Iron-casters on normal Abyssal Dragons

Dravak Dalken

Revenant Worm Riders

Scorpion Husks

Revenant Champions on normal Worms

Mortibris the Necromancer

Arkhanten

Hellequins

Mounted Abyssal Champions

Unwinged Temptresses

The Lord of Lies

Grogger Split-Tooth

Grogger’s Great Lobber

Screamers

Krudgers on normal Slashers

Grumtongue

Revenant Kings of normal Wyrms

Mounted Liche Kings

And the mercs from CoK 2018. So mostly living legends. I may have missed some, feel free to correct me.

Also some units lost modeled options, namely

Ironguard with two-handed weapons

Placoderm with two-handed weapons

Riverguard without(?) two-handed weapons

Immortal Guard with two-handed weapons

Revenants with two-handed weapons

There are a lot of cool new units though. The Luggit Mobs are a great way to use Gloomspite Gitz Fanatics. I do hope that Ronaldo makes a glorious return at some point.

The whispers are that a LOT of that list are appearing in Pannithor armies, including the subset lists of the main book lists. Agnih-Bhanu is in Salamanders, Herneas in Free Dwarfs, etc. A number of units were combined, such as Despoilers being Moloch upgrades, and I haven't seen a unit yet that kept it's two-handed weapon upgrades, which IMO is good as it keeps units more set and avoids weapon upgrades beyond the race specific item and typical magic items. Then you've got the smaller monsters w/ heroes invalidated by larger monsters w/ heroes - of the COK19 events I went to, everyone universally took the big monster version and never the smaller - and the removal of several lesser Living Legends, who may well return later in formations or expansions. Except for those inane Destiny of Whatever heroes that a handful of people took.

As for nerfs to Obviously Great Units: GOOD. I think Nick Williams or another UK heavy called out nimble flying units as the crutches they were. Welcome to the game the rest of us have been playing

Anyway, here's a recap of some changes some dude wrote today:

Sam Rounsevell wrote:I just wrote this up over lunch on r/kingsofwar and though I'd post it here for the people waiting for their codes in the mail.
Try and not be whinging when our Reddit cousins come in from the cold There is so much good stuff in this edition!

Good stuff:

Seems like everything I could field in 2nd I can still field, often with cooler choices and support spells. Good.
Eeeveryone seems to have more varied Infantry choices. About the only big change to Elves who weren't broke.
I tell a lie Elf bowmen are now 5+ to hit and cheap as humans, does make the Seaguard with 5 extra shots look good.
A few thoughtful upgrades like Paladin Defenders give Elite in 6" making CS1 De4+ upgrade more worthwhile.
Bane Chant is much more available at least for Elves and Basileans. Good news for Cav if their TC is stripped.
Elohi lost Thunderous Charge (fair enough they don't have lances) but got a big points drop which I like. Very high Unit Strength to have Flying about at the end of the game. May be punchier if you can get your Bane Chant in range.
Flexible spell choice and consistently priced Wizards, Priests, Northen Alliance Snow Blowers, Refugees from Pixar films, etc. Consistent point costing across armies, too.
Ranged in general is cheaper but also weaker, looks like the ability to cause Nerve checks with Lightening Bolt and Mind Fog is going to be important.
Blizzard, Hex and Mind Fog give options for harrassing enemy Wizards from afar.
Duellist is 10 points for Elf heroes or a 15 point item for anyone, doubles attacks vs Individuals.
Brew of Strength got more expensive for Hordes & Legions. Good. Was enjoying that a bit much on my Sisterhood
Hunters of the Wild just put 4 Regiments and a Troop back on the table...forest-based list is going to be viable.
Playtesters feel like bigger than 2,000pts might be necessary - I seem to be hitting 2.5K before magic items.
Goblins have some hilarious stuff - hang gliders lobbing grenades, blasters rules are simplified. Nothing complicated.
Orcs have quite a lot of hunter characters with bows, expanding on the Skulks theme, many options for War Drums.
Phalanx is -1 to hit unless you are being hit by Infantry or Monster on foot (not Flying) so encourages those units.
Phalanx does not stack with Hindered from terrain. Cancels Thunderous Charge entirely.
Many cheap once-off magic items that look quite handy...item list is split in to unit and Individual sections.
Scaling pricing for magic items (Troop & Regiment Cost/Horde & Legion Cost) and unit upgrades scale as well (+5/+10/+15)...really good to see.
Giants vary by each army both the Giant profile and their close relatives. Cavern Dwellers have Lifeleech (3), Nerves vary between armies, the Goblin Slasher can walk around firing a Bolt Thrower at no penalty (!).
League of Legend Kickstarter is looming and looks like it has some great character models - want to use the dryad model as my Forest Wardens for a in-your-face Scout tree peeps list.
Thunderous Charge (1) for non-Flyers charging from a hill to someone off the hill. Cool.

Bad stuff:

Looks like Scorpion Husks have been downgraded to Desert Swarms, I have 3 but I'm not bummed, they really didn't have a place among all the good Monsters Empire of Dust can field. Tried to make them work so many times. Will have to rebase them to a 40mm Horde.
Theme Lists are not in this book - lots of keywords around (like basic Elf units have Kindred or Verdant for forest pixies) but aren't used immediately beyond Auras and a few spell re-roll special rules. Great things are coming in expansions. Looks like there is a functional Zombie sub-list in Undead with Infantry, Large Infantry and big stuff (Monster or Titan?) options which all gain Vicious from Auras.
Large Infantry Hordes unlock one less than the 3 other Hordes do...might be a pain for Ogres...then again Ogre armies should have a lot of Ogres in them
Not seeing a buff to Cavalry which is concerning. Hopefully availability of Bane Chant will make their lots of attacks on a 3+ count for something when Thunderous Charge is stripped.

Eventually I'll get my book and can dive into rebuilding my armies, most of which I think are invalidated now

**kodos**

First impression?
Good do not being on Facebook

Comparing to a GW 3rd Edition change?
It is still the same Game, that uses the same core and army rules so nothing to worry about

if those are the only bad things in this edition, everything is fine

Bad stuff:

Looks like Scorpion Husks have been downgraded to Desert Swarms, I have 3 but I'm not bummed, they really didn't have a place among all the good Monsters Empire of Dust can field. Tried to make them worth so many times. Will have to rebase them to a 40mm Horde.

Theme Lists are not in this book - lots of keywords around (like basic Elf units have Kindred or Verdant for forest pixies) but aren't used immediately beyond Auras and a few spell re-roll special rules. Great things are coming in expansions. Looks like there is a functional Zombie sub-list in Undead with Infantry, Large Infantry and big stuff (Monster or Titan?) options which all gain Vicious from Auras.

Large Infantry Hordes unlock one less than the 3 other Hordes do...might be a pain for Ogres...then again Ogre armies should have a lot of Ogres in them

Not seeing a buff to Cavalry which is concerning. Hopefully availability of Bane Chant will make their lots of attacks on a 3+ count for something when Thunderous Charge is stripped.

**Sarouan**

Well, if it can help, a 3rd edition playtester posted some of the changes on his blog here : https://www.kowforum.com/t/a-playtesters-initial-thoughts-of-v3/696?fbclid=IwAR3fB475fzJBL-TKm5KSIg1zt7T8RiPXITttFeeG6vcvoXJ5Q3RnZBihqos

In resume :

- Units don't bounce back 1'' after a battle
- Shooting is toned down in general - lots of units becoming irregular or having lower range, worse hit rolls and such. No more breath weapon rule - they now follow most of the range weapons rules with a few other generic special rules. War machines have more attacks but their damage is toned down.
- hills now just add their height to the unit's height being on top of them. Means it's harder to ignore units in front for shooting. Doesn't help with what's above, of course

- terrain handle LoS differently
- you no longer ignore difficult terrain for the purpose of cover when your unit is moving inside of it - another nerf for shooting
- measures from anywhere on the front facing - not just from the leader's standpoint. Sure is easier !
- New Yielding rule for units with the Individual special rule. Means units that aren't disordered can now ignore them when they move. No more heroic action "They Shall Not Pass" !

I'm indeed waiting for the book to see by myself. Looks like there is more than just cherrypicking the changes as negative/positive. What is sure, though, is that it changes quite a lot of things in a very different way. Understandable that some people aren't happy and that fans are wary of the negative sound. But I don't think it's something that should be feared.

**lord_blackfang**

So after formations they are taking another page from GW's book and adding keywords, auras, theme lists and doubtlessly other ways to make combos. This Always Ends Well.

**Boss Salvage**

lord_blackfang wrote:
So after formations they are taking another page from GW's book and adding keywords, auras, theme lists and doubtlessly other ways to make combos. This Always Ends Well.

There are many games that reward synergistic army comp and play, some of which do it quite well, and not all of which are card games. But yes, Age of Stuff does a pretty poorly balanced and highly visible version of this.

EDIT X: I'm interested in having a discussion about game design and the positive role of keywords, auras, theme lists and strategic list building for player engagement and game longevity, but I'm quite certain you're just insinuating that Mantic is mindlessly copying from GeeDub, the successful-but-unsubtle heavy weight of the Fantasy Wargame market, and is therefore doomed to fail.

**auticus**

It certainly gives me pause to shake my head. While its not doomed to fail, it certainly puts us on the road to listbuilding trumping playing the game.

I haven't played a game of 3rd KOW yet, I am still waiting on my book, so thats all I can really comment about it at the moment.

**Sarouan**

TBH, the influence of campaign/tournament mindset is quite obvious from the changes in 3rd edition. The nerf on shooting units sounds quite throrough, and it is undeniable the reason comes from some lists played by some players and working apparently a bit too well for the RC's taste in UK events.

That it's a bad thing or not may vary from people's points of view.

And yeah, from what I have read, I don't like that much this influence being a bit too heavy in some fields. From the playtester's blog, I too think the 2nd edition wasn't broken and I'm not really feeling the need of all these changes in the end. Except from the need for Mantic Games to renew the interest for its game (and sell more stuff to their customers, of course).

Loss of some units being "redundant"...I believe it's more linked to Mantic Games's own miniatures. And the fact that they are not here anymore undeniably "hurts" the players who did make these units for their armies. Of course, that mainly means they used miniatures from other sources than Mantic Games. So their argument may feel irrelevant for Mantic Games supporters. But that's something I honestly understand. They want to sell more of their miniatures, after all, and it's quite obvious they can't do as many kits as their former army lists provide in a reasonable amount of time.

Boss Salvage wrote:

EDIT X: I'm interested in having a discussion about game design and the positive role of keywords, auras, theme lists and strategic list building for player engagement and game longevity, but I'm quite certain Blackfang is just insinuating that Mantic is mindlessly copying from GeeDub, the successful-but-unsubtle heavy weight of the Fantasy Wargame market, and is therefore doomed to fail.

Well, given Mantic Games history, it's unavoidable. They are taking inspiration from what GW does, like it or not.

I don't think that means they are doomed to fail, however. I actually think it can help them. Of course, that means Mantic Games supporters will have to aknowledge GW's work isn't as bad as they wanted to believe, which is kind of a twist since Mantic Games likes to build their reputation as them being "better than GW".

As for myself, I find it understandable if people compare what is actually comparable.

**Boss Salvage**

auticus wrote:
It certainly gives me pause to shake my head. While its not doomed to fail, it certainly puts us on the road to listbuilding trumping playing the game.

The introduction of formations in COK18? was absolutely about listbuilding and not tactical play, and no one should be surprised that the only formations people took were the Obviously Good Ones, which typically made Obviously Good Units simply Obviously Better. I'm happy to see them go ... and bummed to hear they'll be returning down the road

Going to keep hoping they'll return like the theme lists of WMH MK2, where you were rewarded for taking Mediocre Things or had access to units outside of your faction (and totally not like WMH MK3, where you just got 'free units' to pay money and time for).

I'm heartened at how much the 3E auras and whatever they've added now are geared towards rewarding tactical play, since they're effects based around hero positioning and whatever, and only list-related in the sense that you should probably build around the auras you pay for ... or don't pay for them and do something else. Also unlike AOS your KOW heroes aren't just insta-gibbed at will and positioning is way more relevant (with an acknowledgement that AOS 2.0 has gotten a smidge better about requiring heroes while also giving them a sliver of protection).

**auticus**

I'll refrain from commenting on AOS because aint no one want to hear me launch into a five page diatribe on that game.

However yes, the main reasons I love KOW are for the maneuver and positioning being so important. I am looking forward to playing 3rd ed once my book gets in.

**stonehorse**

Haven't ordered the book, as I'm waiting for the Gamers edition... 300 pages of generic fantasy is not something that I'm in a hurry to rush out and buy.

However I am keeping a close eye on the news of the rules that are coming out.

Seems like shooting has been made into an after thought.

• Ranges dropping from 24" to 18" on a lot of units.
• Not many RA 4+ units.
• a lot of ranged units being made irregular.
• Loss of some useful artifacts that help ranged units.
• Bane Chant no longer giving piercing.
• Loss of Breath Attacks.

Compare this to the buffs that melee units got, and it does feel like a bit of a pendulum swing. Yes, there were some abuse of ranged units, and some that were frankly obscene (Ogre Boomers/Elven Bolt Throwers/Mongolian Horse Archers). I just think that from what we have been shown/told ranged attack units have been caught in the cross fire when the few offending units have been addressed. My Kingdom of Men relied on a lot of Mounted Scouts to harass and bloody the enemy then finish them off with some Mounted Sargents, not sure that is going to work now. 24" range 7 attacks hitting on 5+ isn’t exactly Ogre Boomers level of effectiveness, even when fielded in numbers.

Add in the changes to selecting units and it does look a bit off putting.

I hope I am wrong.

**kodos**

Regarding Auras, we already had them in 2nd Edition with Inspiring, so nothing new but more detailed together with Keywords

And Keywords are nothing new either, just because it had a different name, and GW made them sound bad (they did not invented them, just gave them a bad reputation)

Nothing that really worries me or give me a "they copy the worst part of GW" feeling

List building is a problem, as a lot of people like it and tinkering around to get the best out of your points is something that KoW was missing, king of.
Or better said list building was not that obvious in KoW than it is in other games (I still sank much more hours in writing lists than I did for AoS or 40k and even Warhammer back than, is the perfect well rounded list is neither obvious nor needed at all)

The problem with Removing units is a thing.
Something I can understand from a gameplay point of view, as KoW was always said to be too homogeneous with not enough difference between units.
So removing the Two-Handed Option from Iron Guard is understandable although I have 2 units of them next to 3 troops of Shieldbreakers.

Then with the focus on Armies sold by Mantic in the Main Book, of course removing units that are not available and will never is important to get things going.

PS:
GW copied their fair share from Mantic too and it always was a bigger problem if GW copied rules than the other way around.

8th Edition 40k used a lot from Warpath, but without understanding why those rules are used in the first place.

I have not seen anything innovative or new in a GW game for several editions and just people know those kind of rules from GW does not mean that Mantic copied it from there or copied it at all (and not just extended and re-named existing rules)

**stonehorse**

Adding keywords and Spellcaster tiers is a good idea... however there is apparently very little in the book that utilizes these. I understand that they are there for future expansions. This is annoying me, Mantic are going down a GW lite approach with this move. Adding more rules that are in different books. Meaning more sales and players constantly chasing a meta.

The main rule book really didn't need 200/300 pages of background. The lists for those that are going to be in Armies of Panithor and rules that use the keywords & Spellcaster tiers could have been all in one book. Quite easily, yes it may have been a longer testing period, bit it would be a more complete game at launch. As it is it feels like a game that is going to be in at least 3 volumes.

Been playing since the early beta back in 09/10, bought both 1st and 2nd edition, and there was very little feeling of being forced in to a sales cycle. 3rd is starting to have that odour about it. Shame as Mantic had made a cracking game that was a refreshing change from the GW sales cycle of constantly needing the next book.

At least there is still Dragon Rampant, or I can just stick with playing 2nd edition KoW. Doubt Mantic are going to come I to my games room and burn my book.

**kodos**

stonehorse wrote:

As it is it feels like a game that is going to be in at least 3 volumes.

How is that different from the prevoius editions?

1st was a 4 book (or booklet) release, 2nd again was split over 4 books and now 3rd looks like doing the same.

**stonehorse**

kodos wrote:
stonehorse wrote:

As it is it feels like a game that is going to be in at least 3 volumes.

How is that different from the prevoius editions?

1st was a 4 book (or booklet) release, 2nd again was split over 4 books and now 3rd looks like doing the same.

The other editions had the rules in one book, the other books added faction lists. The main rule books were not bloated with background. The new book is, the background could easily be reduced and there would be enough pages left over to add all of those rules into one book.

In 2nd edition Uncharted Empires was a nice small addition as it wasn't adding any new core rules, just giving lists for forces. It wasn't a required purchase in order to play the game. As the rules for Spellcaster tiers and keywords are going to add to the core mechanics of how the game plays the boom that contains them is going to be needed to play the full game.

In both 1st and 2nd edition I could play the full game with just the main rule book.

3rd is going to require me as a Kingdom of Men player to bring at least 3 books in order to play the full game. Core rule book, Armies of Panithor, and what ever the book that deals with keywords and Spellcaster tiers is called.

**Boss Salvage**

So I'm obviously a KOW (and Mantic by extension) supporter and doing my best to be outspoken about a game I love, because there are a lot of good games quietly being played in the shadow of GW's big mediocre games, that need exposure to thrive but don't get much of it, especially on store shelves. I'm super excited to play 3E, in large part because I'm just super excited to play KOW again, these last weeks have been hard since everything is on hold - even hobbywise, I'm just picking at Kill Team stuff and stupidly starting an AOS speedpaint army because I gotta do something!

That said, KOW 3E has two sour notes for me:

1) The publication schedule. In particular the launch with one big book, followed some weeks later by another book with the rest of the armies. [EDIT: And then a third book as stonehorse notes!] If given the option, I wouldn't have bought the big hard back I'm picking up this weekend, I would have bought the gamer edition (preferably in soft back), in which case I'd be fine with picking up Armies of Pannithor (preferably in soft back) as well, and then spiral binding the two soft backs together as I did with 2E + Uncharted Empires. Instead I have to buy a hard back I do not want, followed by I'm guessing another hard back I do not want, to get the rules guts I do want. Sure there are PDFs, but I'd like to support my LGS, plus I don't like ebooks so I'd have to print them anyway and have them bound, ultimately on much worse stock, etc. However this is mostly just complaining compared to #2.

2) Change to army comp (i.e. unlocks). A good number of units in 3E became Irregular, which on the whole is a good thing. The regular/irregular divide in 2E meant very little, I think it's valid to use that to curtail spam a bit. The problem for me is that large or monstrous infantry or cav (I think regular cav too) appear to unlock one less than before, which puts severe limits on Big Guy armies, and universally decreases the number of possible army comps. I understand what Mantic is trying to do - they want to see more infantry on the table and less single (flying) models dominating the game* - but part of the attraction of KOW is the huge variety of lists you can make, since it has been relatively free of the 'core tax' that Warhammer has had forever. Personally, this change also means every single one of my armies is invalidated, including my infantry heavy Ratkin (I have a lot of characters, currently unlocked by Brute regiments, which no longer unlock anything). I was prepared to do some rejiggering and was excited to go back to the shop once I got my book(s, most of my armies are in AOP) ... but in many cases the core theme of my armies have been shattered, and I'll have to make the call on if it's worth the time and money to add in a horde of X trash unit simply as a tax. Kind of a bad feel, and a rules change that honestly I wish they would roll back. Plus you've got armies like Ogres, who are really reamed by this, and that's just running the army straight and not askew like I do.

Long and wordy, but point being my glasses are not entirely rosy here.

* It's worth remembering the anecdote from some major UK tournament this year, where Ronnie Renton was walking around the hall and was shocked to see so damn many Elf/Kin armies made up of chariot hordes with 2-3 dragons. I'm genuinely surprised that dragons haven't been nerfed into dust, because shooty chariot hordes sure have been!

**stonehorse**

The new force structure is something that I hope to avoid. My forces tend to use a lot of infantry and Cavalry, no monsters or Warmachines in sight, and very light on characters.

Having said that I can see why they feel they had to address some lists people were taking. I do wonder if putting a cap on the number of units that can be taken for every 1,000pts may have been a better way to address the offending units. The approach taken seems to have put a few non offending units in the cross hairs.

Hopefully the Gamers edition will be released soon.

**Boss Salvage**

stonehorse wrote:
Having said that I can see why they feel they had to address some lists people were taking. I do wonder if putting a cap on the number of units that can be taken for every 1,000pts may have been a better way to address the offending units. The approach taken seems to have put a few non offending units in the cross hairs.

I mean, I assume they've kept the COK caps on Heroes, Monsters and Warmachines. And I've played at tournaments that capped all units to max 4 - which I'm against in principle, but can understand given the rather OP units people were spamming (and which are almost universally Irregular now).

Hopefully the Gamers edition will be released soon.

I think the boxed set has it in it, which means it exists and has been printed. At the least.

**Sarouan**

Ah, the change for army compositions is certainly the one that is making a lot of players grind their teeth.

About Large Infantry/Monstruous Cavalry units unlocking less, apparently it's specifically for the hordes...and frankly, I don't like this because it's another damn special rule for the sake of correcting a situation that could easily be solved simply by making what they always were since the first edition : Large Infantry/Monstruous Cavalry Regiments were in fact Troops and Hordes were Regiments. It's the RC who made the mistake of changing the category because "ogre armies couldn't fill enough" while they artificially upped their profiles (and made goblins irregular).

That change had drastic consequences on army compo since all Large/Monstruous Infantry/Cavalry were abused for easy unlock of stuff while still remaining packing a lot of damage/resilience themselves (and also having a smaller footprint than other hordes, most of the time - and you need a lot less of miniatures than regular infantry/cavalry, which is good for the wallet too !). It has a lot of advantages, which is why they were seen a lot.

So here in 3rd, they tried to correct their mistake the worst way (IMHO) : by still keeping the category and adding another special rule in the army comp.

That's what I really don't like in this edition. Yeah, there are a lot of good ideas, but also a god damn whole lot of new special rules that give exceptions and such here and there. We are clearly getting away from the simple yet elegant rules of KoW...for the sake of excitment of tournament play or something, I guess.

And yes, the RC has done a lot of work and they are clearly proud of it. But I don't think it's as best as they think it is. It really reminds me of one of the great criticism you could make to GW in the older times, when they were up in their Ivory tower, out of touch with their base and players...feels like Mantic RC is kinda like this now.

**Boss Salvage**

Sarouan wrote:
About Large Infantry/Monstruous Cavalry units unlocking less, apparently it's specifically for the hordes...and frankly, I don't like this because it's another damn special rule for the sake of correcting a situation that could easily be solved simply by making what they always were since the first edition : Large Infantry/Monstruous Cavalry Regiments were in fact Troops and Hordes were Regiments. It's the RC who made the mistake of changing the category because "ogre armies couldn't fill enough" while they artificially upped their profiles (and made goblins irregular).

From what I've heard, all the Large/Monstrous units 'unlock one less' than 2E. So a regiment just unlocks troops / irregulars, a horde 1 thing + troops/irregulars, a legion 2 things + troops/irregulars. So not quite what 1E had - since troops get unlocked - but pretty similar.

**Sarouan**

Boss Salvage wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
About Large Infantry/Monstruous Cavalry units unlocking less, apparently it's specifically for the hordes...and frankly, I don't like this because it's another damn special rule for the sake of correcting a situation that could easily be solved simply by making what they always were since the first edition : Large Infantry/Monstruous Cavalry Regiments were in fact Troops and Hordes were Regiments. It's the RC who made the mistake of changing the category because "ogre armies couldn't fill enough" while they artificially upped their profiles (and made goblins irregular).
From what I've heard, all the Large/Monstrous units 'unlock one less' than 2E. So a regiment just unlocks troops / irregulars, a horde 1 thing + troops/irregulars, a legion 2 things + troops/irregulars. So not quite what 1E had - since troops get unlocked - but pretty similar.

Then that's really what I thought - they are now Troops / Regiments, but without being called that way.

It's really a unneeded special rule. Just change the category back and get done with it !