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Not Online!!! wrote:

And it doesn't bother you that you have to invest a Warlord Trait, Artefact and Stratagem into your HQ just to make him remotely functional in his role?

i mean CSM suffer from the same thing. Have the correct combination and the HQ's are great. (lord discordant f.e)

have not the correct combination and whoops that were 160 pts dead in one shooting phase and a killed warlord.

Frankly it is bad design, because if a unit is not worth it's points without the taked on stuff then why the feth do the rest of the subfactions have to pay for THAT specific combination in the first place?

I don't disagree.

There's also the obvious issue that you're generally limited in artefacts and warlord traits.

In the example of the Archon,

A.T. wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
And it doesn't bother you that you have to invest a Warlord Trait, Artefact and Stratagem into your HQ just to make him remotely functional in his role?

Like smashcaptains, chainlords, etc? It's not great but I suppose it does at least limit you to one monsterously buffed-up HQ at a time.

Except that this is a false equivalence. A fully decked-out Archon is not 'monstrously buffed'. On average he'll kill about 4 Space Marines on the charge. That's it. That's the power of a fully-kitted DE HQ.

In contrast, a fully-kitted Smashcaptain is capable of going toe-to-toe with Imperial Knights.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Except that this is a false equivalence. A fully decked-out Archon is not 'monstrously buffed'. On average he'll kill about 4 Space Marines on the charge. That's it. That's the power of a fully-kitted DE HQ.

That's a full marine more than i'd expect out of my own fully buffed/equipped combat HQ, so I guess it's all relative.

But it was more a comment on the gap between basic and geared up HQs in many armies. Not everyone gets as big a jump as others but the whole trait/relic/stratagem combo character is common to most factions.

A.T. wrote:
That's a full marine more than i'd expect out of my own fully buffed/equipped combat HQ, so I guess it's all relative.

Out of interest, which HQ is that?

A.T. wrote:
But it was more a comment on the gap between basic and geared up HQs in many armies. Not everyone gets as big a jump as others but the whole trait/relic/stratagem combo character is common to most factions.

But that wasn't my point.

I get that there's always going to be a difference between HQs with relics/Warlord Traits and HQs without.

My complaint is with HQs that need Relics and Warlord Traits just to be functional.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

A.T. wrote:
That's a full marine more than i'd expect out of my own fully buffed/equipped combat HQ, so I guess it's all relative.

Out of interest, which HQ is that?

Sororitas canoness with the relic power sword and close combat <order> trait. 5x S6 attacks on the charge, 4x S5 attacks otherwise. T3 3+/4++. Puts out more damage than the named option (Celestine), just lacks mobility. Cheap as chips though.

A.T. wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

A.T. wrote:
That's a full marine more than i'd expect out of my own fully buffed/equipped combat HQ, so I guess it's all relative.

Out of interest, which HQ is that?

Sororitas canoness with the relic power sword and close combat <order> trait. 5x S6 attacks on the charge, 4x S5 attacks otherwise. T3 3+/4++. Puts out more damage than the named option (Celestine), just lacks mobility. Cheap as chips though.

Ah. Straight Damage 3 on that sword is really nice, though,

I have to say, if Archons were as cheap as Canonesses, I'd probably have fewer complaints.

Has anyone mentioned the Vendetta gunship?

Its weapons ALONE (3 twin lascannons) collectively cost 120 pts, bringing the unit cost above 200 (don't remember the base cost). And since it has no rule for firing heavy weapons without penalty after moving, it means that your already middling BS of 4+ gets reduced for 5+ unless you hover. And that's without factoring in any BS loss from damage.



Re: Archons: Definitely overcosted, and the Rule of Three really screws Drukhari over. They need to bring back the Dracon (mini-Archon), and maybe an equivalent mini-Succubus, both costing around 30-40 pts plus wargear.

-Guardsman- wrote:

Re: Archons: Definitely overcosted, and the Rule of Three really screws Drukhari over. They need to bring back the Dracon (mini-Archon), and maybe an equivalent mini-Succubus, both costing around 30-40 pts plus wargear.

It does feel like GW are very much gearing Dark Eldar towards using the multiple-patrols stratagem. You're probably avoiding Rule Of 3 with that, but then you're falling foul of the other 'GW Suggestion taken as a Hard Rule' involving number of detachments...

Their triple-Patrol should have been defined as a detatchment with 3 Patrol slots. That would have made it "work" with the 3-detatchement limit - basically a Brigade replacement, and you can still take 2 other detatchements.

At 2k points, 3xPatrol just isn't enough.

Bharring wrote:
Their triple-Patrol should have been defined as a detatchment with 3 Patrol slots. That would have made it "work" with the 3-detatchement limit - basically a Brigade replacement, and you can still take 2 other detatchements.

At 2k points, 3xPatrol just isn't enough.

NONONONONO, That will be a special detachment in the next VIgilus book for another 35£.


It's like with CA, it's in essence a bloody mandatory balance patch YOU PAY FOR.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

A.T. wrote:
That's a full marine more than i'd expect out of my own fully buffed/equipped combat HQ, so I guess it's all relative.

Out of interest, which HQ is that?

Sororitas canoness with the relic power sword and close combat <order> trait. 5x S6 attacks on the charge, 4x S5 attacks otherwise. T3 3+/4++. Puts out more damage than the named option (Celestine), just lacks mobility. Cheap as chips though.

Ah. Straight Damage 3 on that sword is really nice, though,

I have to say, if Archons were as cheap as Canonesses, I'd probably have fewer complaints.

Reminds me of my mate, he got his archon curbstomped by my 29 pts renegade commander, which in essence is a IG commander with a Energy sword sans orders.

Archons are, in terms of survivability, just too swingy. Sometimes you roll hot and they can tank a Knight Gallant's entire Stomp routine. Sometimes you roll a 1 on that first save against Guardsmen and get punked by a squad of 'em.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Reminds me of my mate, he got his archon curbstomped by my 29 pts renegade commander, which in essence is a IG commander with a Energy sword sans orders.

To be fair, if your 5 wound model (with a 2++ no less) is stomped by something with only 3 single-damage attacks then it's just not your day.

A.T. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Reminds me of my mate, he got his archon curbstomped by my 29 pts renegade commander, which in essence is a IG commander with a Energy sword sans orders.

To be fair, if your 5 wound model (with a 2++ no less) is stomped by something with only 3 single-damage attacks then it's just not your day.

weell he was slowed enough to throw him into a unit of 20 militia, which then after three rounds of combat broke his shield and then the commander came in and, made him into filet.

A.T. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Reminds me of my mate, he got his archon curbstomped by my 29 pts renegade commander, which in essence is a IG commander with a Energy sword sans orders.

To be fair, if your 5 wound model (with a 2++ no less) is stomped by something with only 3 single-damage attacks then it's just not your day.

Isn't the 2++ only for the first unsaved wound?

While the Archon should win that fight, how is that much of a tarpit? A single 40-pt Infantry squad will outtank the Archon easily.

Per point, a T3 model with 1 2++ W and 4 other W is nowhere close to as good a tarpit as a Land Raider.

Sometimes dice are fickle. In previous editions, I've had Asurman with reroll saves-of-1 (so T4 2+ rerollable) die to Sternguard overwatch. And nowhere close to a full squad at that. Sometimes, things happen.

The Archon is bad though. Semi-decent in CC for the points, but that's the only upside. Can't get there. Bad shooting. Aura is hard to use. Gets chumped by most HQs.

Not all factions have SM-quality HQs, but most have ways of being useful. Archons, not so much.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Re: Archons: Definitely overcosted, and the Rule of Three really screws Drukhari over. They need to bring back the Dracon (mini-Archon), and maybe an equivalent mini-Succubus, both costing around 30-40 pts plus wargear.

Dracons would be nice (though I'd also like to see Archon's fixed so that they're actually worth their current cost). Hell, more options in general would be nice. I hate that all our subfactions are basically stuck with a single HQ choice each.

Given that Scourges, Mandrakes and Incubi have been made into pseudo-mercenaries (who don't belong to any of the subfactions), it would be nice if they got HQs of their own. That would give us 'wild card' HQs who can be used as primary or secondary HQs with any of the subfactions.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Archons are, in terms of survivability, just too swingy. Sometimes you roll hot and they can tank a Knight Gallant's entire Stomp routine. Sometimes you roll a 1 on that first save against Guardsmen and get punked by a squad of 'em.

To be honest, I'd really like to see Shadowfields scrapped entirely. Their current rules feel completely out of place.

Something like a 5++ (or maybe 4++) with -1 to hit would seem a lot more logical. Now you've got the similarities with Venoms and Mandrakes (who both derive their defences from similar means), the save doesn't need to be lost when failed, the stupid 'can never be rerolled even in an edition based around rerolls' rule can be scrapped, and you no longer have the frustration of either failing a 2++ save immediately or playing against an Archon who never seems to fail his 2++ save. Oh, one other benefit, perhaps we could finally stop adding an arbitrary 25pts to his price tag to justify a defence that hasn't been good since 3rd?



Anyway, in terms of other bad units, I'll nominate the Necron Destroyer Lord. To be honest, I don't think he's as bad as some of the other units on this list, he's more an example of absolutely baffling design.

So, we have an expensive character who is very much focused on melee . . . but who only has WS3+. Seems a bit odd. But stranger still is his aura. As already mentioned he's only equipped for melee, yet his aura is only capable of buffing ranged attacks. Not only that but it's only capable of buffing the ranged attacks of 2 units - with with medium-long range weapons, and neither of which wants to be anywhere near combat.

Not nearly as bad as some other contenders here but definitely a shining example of nonsensical design.

Greater possesed.

Yes they are a beatstick.

they are a Beatstick in an army that has way better beatsticks, in the same point range.

AND their aura is, well, Daemon engines are meh in melee or too fast for them and the venomcrawler is bad and the only thing that would profit from the additional S.
Also the other units (possesd) beyond having just bad sculpts are also overpriced to the point you can consider all other Marine units fieldable.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Greater possesed.

Yes they are a beatstick.

they are a Beatstick in an army that has way better beatsticks, in the same point range.

AND their aura is, well, Daemon engines are meh in melee or too fast for them and the venomcrawler is bad and the only thing that would profit from the additional S.
Also the other units (possesd) beyond having just bad sculpts are also overpriced to the point you can consider all other Marine units fieldable.

I'm not a Chaos player but I'm surprised Greater Possessed don't have some sort of mutation ability.

Seems like they'd at least be more fun if they could do stuff like grow wings for a turn.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Archons are, in terms of survivability, just too swingy. Sometimes you roll hot and they can tank a Knight Gallant's entire Stomp routine. Sometimes you roll a 1 on that first save against Guardsmen and get punked by a squad of 'em.

I don't mind it so much, inconvenient as it may be, because it feels somehow very fitting for Drukhari. All or nothing.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Given that Scourges, Mandrakes and Incubi have been made into pseudo-mercenaries (who don't belong to any of the subfactions), it would be nice if they got HQs of their own. That would give us 'wild card' HQs who can be used as primary or secondary HQs with any of the subfactions.

Yessss, I've been thinking that for a while. And the Scourge HQ should be a dark lance-toting sniper, with the ability to target a character who isn't the closest unit.


In terms of useless units, the Leman Russ Eradicator has become obsolete in 8th Edition, now that the "ignores cover" rule can essentially be replaced by an extra point of AP. Except for dealing with those rare units that get +2 cover save, a battle cannon generally does a better job.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
Re: Archons: Definitely overcosted, and the Rule of Three really screws Drukhari over. They need to bring back the Dracon (mini-Archon), and maybe an equivalent mini-Succubus, both costing around 30-40 pts plus wargear.

Dracons would be nice (though I'd also like to see Archon's fixed so that they're actually worth their current cost). Hell, more options in general would be nice. I hate that all our subfactions are basically stuck with a single HQ choice each.

Given that Scourges, Mandrakes and Incubi have been made into pseudo-mercenaries (who don't belong to any of the subfactions), it would be nice if they got HQs of their own. That would give us 'wild card' HQs who can be used as primary or secondary HQs with any of the subfactions.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Archons are, in terms of survivability, just too swingy. Sometimes you roll hot and they can tank a Knight Gallant's entire Stomp routine. Sometimes you roll a 1 on that first save against Guardsmen and get punked by a squad of 'em.

To be honest, I'd really like to see Shadowfields scrapped entirely. Their current rules feel completely out of place.

Something like a 5++ (or maybe 4++) with -1 to hit would seem a lot more logical. Now you've got the similarities with Venoms and Mandrakes (who both derive their defences from similar means), the save doesn't need to be lost when failed, the stupid 'can never be rerolled even in an edition based around rerolls' rule can be scrapped, and you no longer have the frustration of either failing a 2++ save immediately or playing against an Archon who never seems to fail his 2++ save. Oh, one other benefit, perhaps we could finally stop adding an arbitrary 25pts to his price tag to justify a defence that hasn't been good since 3rd?



Anyway, in terms of other bad units, I'll nominate the Necron Destroyer Lord. To be honest, I don't think he's as bad as some of the other units on this list, he's more an example of absolutely baffling design.

So, we have an expensive character who is very much focused on melee . . . but who only has WS3+. Seems a bit odd. But stranger still is his aura. As already mentioned he's only equipped for melee, yet his aura is only capable of buffing ranged attacks. Not only that but it's only capable of buffing the ranged attacks of 2 units - with with medium-long range weapons, and neither of which wants to be anywhere near combat.

Not nearly as bad as some other contenders here but definitely a shining example of nonsensical design.

I'll take the Ghetto Celestine Destroyer Lord over several different HQ units any day.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Greater possesed.

Yes they are a beatstick.

they are a Beatstick in an army that has way better beatsticks, in the same point range.

AND their aura is, well, Daemon engines are meh in melee or too fast for them and the venomcrawler is bad and the only thing that would profit from the additional S.
Also the other units (possesd) beyond having just bad sculpts are also overpriced to the point you can consider all other Marine units fieldable.

I'm not a Chaos player but I'm surprised Greater Possessed don't have some sort of mutation ability.

Seems like they'd at least be more fun if they could do stuff like grow wings for a turn.

Nope, they can't for reasons.

Bharring wrote:
Is the Land Raider "The epitome of bad". Is it the perfectly worst choice in the entire game.

The Executioner thread is being flooded with claims that it's the Land Raider, and that seems exaggerated to me.

Things I think of as worse:
-Drop Pods (as now - I was called out for arguing they would be undercosted when someone suggested 0ppm for them, so I mean as currently pointed.)
-Any Titan
-Tantaulous
-FW Greater Demons (Sir Vowels-For-name, not "Fateweaver")
-Assault Marines
-Stompa
-Gorka/Morkanaught
-Squiggoths
-Vampyr Hunter/Raider
-Corsairs (foot, jetpack, or bike)

In an effort to declutter the Executioner thread, lets hash this out here.

A grey Knight army sporting 2x land raiders won the GT in Australia a couple months ago.

I was recently reminded that Space Marine Reivers are a unit that exists. They're bafflingly bad.

 Smotejob wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Is the Land Raider "The epitome of bad". Is it the perfectly worst choice in the entire game.

The Executioner thread is being flooded with claims that it's the Land Raider, and that seems exaggerated to me.

Things I think of as worse:
-Drop Pods (as now - I was called out for arguing they would be undercosted when someone suggested 0ppm for them, so I mean as currently pointed.)
-Any Titan
-Tantaulous
-FW Greater Demons (Sir Vowels-For-name, not "Fateweaver")
-Assault Marines
-Stompa
-Gorka/Morkanaught
-Squiggoths
-Vampyr Hunter/Raider
-Corsairs (foot, jetpack, or bike)

In an effort to declutter the Executioner thread, lets hash this out here.

A grey Knight army sporting 2x land raiders won the GT in Australia a couple months ago.

Had to be a fluff bunny tournament.

Court of the Archon.

They are basically characters without the CHARACTER keyword, so a 2/3 wound model that just gets shot.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Wraithknights

After their 100 points drop they are reasonably average. With 5+FNP on it it is quite chunky and has reasonable firepower with the suncannon build. By no means amazing but better than a knight in certain situations. Where having decent shooting and a 5++ in melle are what you are looking for. It also can have the infamous -1 to hit aloitoc trait.

More expensive than most knights, lower invulnerable, need couple of psychers to babysit it and no good stratagems.
It`s not the worst units in the game, but certainly is in the top places if we exclude FW CWE units who no one even talks about.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
I'll nominate the DE HQs - especially the Archon and Succubus.

Archons:
- Vastly overcosted for what they bring (they're about on par with a Canoness, yet cost ~25pts more).
- Gimmicky, unreliable save and no longer has any option to swap it out for a basic 4++.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space and stupid minimum squad sizes.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on a special weapon and a heavy weapon.
- Very poor melee ability, doubly so for an HQ that just lost it's only decent shooting weapon.
- Passable ranged ability . . . but only if you use an Index (i.e. non-Codex) option.
- 0 synergy with his own subfaction.
- 0 ability to buff other subfactions.
- Worthless aura that's completely incompatible with the entire playstyle of DE.
- As mentioned above, the Archon has no mobility option outside of a transport. However, his aura isn't allowed to extend outside of a transport.
- What's more, other Kabal units want to be in transports as well, and even if the Archon is on foot his aura still isn't allowed to affect units inside nearby transports.
- The Archon's aura doesn't even affect units inside his own transport.
- Hell, the Archon can't even buff *himself* when inside a transport. This, I remind you, from the leader of a faction that is supposed to have trained for millennia in the art of fighting from transports.
- Even outside of a transport, the Archon's aura is completely useless on his own Court.

Succubi:
- Dedicated melee HQ... yet has the fewest attacks of our HQs.
- In spite of being a melee HQ, her melee presence is laughably bad - not least because of how horrendously awful the Glaive is. Sorry but 4 attacks at S5 AP-3 with a miserably 1 damage is not scaring anyone. And to make matters worse, GW thought this weapon so unbelievably powerful that it needed a -1 to hit. That's how much they hate the idea of our HQs being even remotely good.
- Hope you're playing Red Grief so that you can actually access the only worthwhile melee weapon for your melee HQ. Also, just to reiterate this point, I think it says something about the quality of our melee weapons that a Power Fist is worthy of being an artefact.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on at least one special weapon.
- Piddling aura.
- As with the Archon, has no ability to buff units outside of her subfaction.
- However, she is also unable to buff some units within her subfaction - namely Beasts (incidentally, the only fast unit she could potentially keep up with).
- Because of aforementioned lack of mobility, isn't able to keep up with Hellions or Reavers to buff them.

And what makes these so much worse is that they're mandatory. For as godawful as Land Raiders are, Marine players at least have the option of ignoring them entirely. DE players don't have that luxury because these two are the only available HQs for Kabal and Cult armies, respectively (outside of Drazhar, who somehow manages to be even worse). A Kabal Battalion has to include two of the useless bastards.

You must be joking, Archon and Succubi are one of the most point effiecient HQs in aeldar faction.
Look at the phoenix lords, all of them are 2-3 times more expensive with lower aura benefits and fighting power.
They are slow but Archon buffing Ravagers is pretty good and it had really good melee relic if you want fighting Archon.
Succubus is maybe the cheapest aeldar HQ for only 50 pts.

Yea, aeldar HQs really need some buffs, to be on par with non-aeldar factions but compare them with the poor phoenix lords:

1. Asurman -175 pts give only 6 inch 5++ aura to aspects. 4++ range and 3++ melee.
2. Baharoth -110 pts give +1 LD to aspect or 2 LD to swooping hawks. No invul save
3. Fuegan - 140 pts, 6`inch reroll 1 on fire dragons. No invul
4. Jin Zar - 115 pts, 6 inch aura always fight first for banshees. No invul.
5. Karandras - 125 pts, 6 inch aura scorpions extra attack on 6+. No invul
6. Maugan RA - 140 pts, 6 inch aura reroll 1 for reapers. No invul.
7. Irrilyth - 160 pts 18 inch morale debuff aura. No invul

Led`s add and our super cool sniper, who was always out shinned, even more after they made assassins total BS:
8. Illic - 80 pts 5+ save when not in cover !!! No invul

Marin wrote:
You must be joking, Archon and Succubi are one of the most point effiecient HQs in aeldar faction.

[Citation needed.]

You do understand that "cheap" does not equate to "efficient", right? Though even then I'm not sure you could call the Archon 'cheap' with a straight face. The Succubus, sure. But the Archon, not so much. Especially when you stop to look at what you're actually getting for that price.

Marin wrote:
Look at the phoenix lords, all of them are 2-3 times more expensive with lower aura benefits and fighting power.

Phoenix Lords are not your base HQs. If you don't want to use them, you can fall back on Farseers, Jetbike Farseers, Autarchs, Winged Autarchs, Warp-Spider Autarchs, Jetbike Autarchs, Warlocks, Jetbike Warlocks, Warlock Conclaves, Jetbike Warlock Conclaves, Spiritseers etc.

If I don't like Archons or Succubi (or if I want to mix things up with a second HQ) I have 0 options other than special characters. I don't even have the option to give them Wings or Jetbikes. These are the only HQs I can ever have in an army.

Hence, you'll forgive me if I'm lacking in sympathy because some of your Phoenix Lords (a group of special characters who are equal in number to my entire HQ section) aren't quite to you tastes. I guess you'll just have to cope with having one of the best Psyker HQs in the entire game.

If you want to compare the Phoenix Lords to anything, feel free to give Drazhar a look. Go ahead, I'll wait.


All that being said, I've no clue where you're even getting 'lower aura and fighting power'. The Archon and Succubus are also incredibly limited in their auras. The Succubus can technically buff multiple units, but since all of them bar Wyches completely outpace her, she's basically limited to buffing Wyches. Similarly, the Archon can't buff units in, into, or out of transports (which is the only place Kabalites ever want to be); and his aura is redundant on his own Court. So the only thing he can buff in any meaningful way is Ravagers.

As for fighting ability:
- Asurmen has vastly better melee ability
- Baharroth likewise has much better melee, plus he flies (a power entirely unavailable to the Archon or Succubus)
- Fuegan hits like a truck
- Jain Zar is better than either (and can also Advance and Charge)
- Karandras' base weapon is a Power Fist with no penalty to hit. The Succubus literally has to take a Relic to get the equivalent, and that's before you factor in Karandras' other bonuses.
- Even Maugan Ra has better melee.

Marin wrote:

They are slow but Archon buffing Ravagers is pretty good and it had really good melee relic if you want fighting Archon.

First off, do you not see anything incongruous about a melee HQ being so worthless that his only possible role is sitting at the back of the field to buff the DE equivalent of artillery?

Also, let's say I'm taking a Kabal Battalion. Okay, my first Archon is showing off his melee prowess by buffing Ravagers. What's the second Archon buffing? Because, unlike your army, I can't just take a different HQ.

With regard to melee weapons, you do realise that a biker Autarch has a better melee weapon than the Djin Blade Archon without even needing to take a Relic, right? Plus, you know, a way to reliably get into melee.

Also, you'll forgive me if I don't find "+2 attacks on a mediocre weapon" to be a "good melee relic". The only reason it looks even remotely good is because the bar for DE weapons is so low that it's intruding on Satan's wine cellar.

Marin wrote:

Succubus is maybe the cheapest aeldar HQ for only 50 pts.

Tell you what, I'll trade you the Succubus for the Farseer. I mean, the Farseer is more than twice the price of a Succubus so clearly you'll want the cheaper of the two because apparently "cheaper" always equates to "better". Meanwhile, I'll take the plunge and suffer having to have a Farseer in my DE army. That sound fair?

You do understand that "cheap" does not equate to "efficient", right? Though even then I'm not sure you could call the Archon 'cheap' with a straight face. The Succubus, sure. But the Archon, not so much. Especially when you stop to look at what you're actually getting for that price.

I`m getting better version of Autarch on foot, that have decent melee and invul save. Yes, Autarch can take reaper luncher, but it`s index option that is for instance not allowed in ETC.

Phoenix Lords are not your base HQs. If you don't want to use them, you can fall back on Farseers, Jetbike Farseers, Autarchs, Winged Autarchs, Warp-Spider Autarchs, Jetbike Autarchs, Warlocks, Jetbike Warlocks, Warlock Conclaves, Jetbike Warlock Conclaves, Spiritseers etc.

The topic is worse that Land Raider, i showed you some HQ that are worst than Archon and Saccumbus, because i think you are just whining without real reason.

Hence, you'll forgive me if I'm lacking in sympathy because some of your Phoenix Lords (a group of special characters who are equal in number to my entire HQ section) aren't quite to you tastes. I guess you'll just have to cope with having one of the best Psyker HQs in the entire game.

I don`t search for any sympathy, every faction need to have different strength and weak points. Except the Draznar all your HQ are good, even Draznar is good, but it`s overpriced.
Should Archon be cheaper ? Maybe, maybe not, game designers will decide that. Is Archon bad as you claim ? Certainly no, he is good HQ.

First off, do you not see anything incongruous about a melee HQ being so worthless that his only possible role is sitting at the back of the field to buff the DE equivalent of artillery?

Also, let's say I'm taking a Kabal Battalion. Okay, my first Archon is showing off his melee prowess by buffing Ravagers. What's the second Archon buffing? Because, unlike your army, I can't just take a different HQ.

With regard to melee weapons, you do realise that a biker Autarch has a better melee weapon than the Djin Blade Archon without even needing to take a Relic, right? Plus, you know, a way to reliably get into melee.

Sorry there is no full happiness in list building, that is the reason being cheap is useful for the list. I think Kebalites are on of the cheapest infantry squads you can take, so that really give you points for other stuff. DE have cheap open topped transports something that a lot of CWE players cry about. I guess everything wants what they don`t have.
Skyrunner have less attacks and his weapon is strong only during charge and i`ts still 30 pts more.

Tell you what, I'll trade you the Succubus for the Farseer. I mean, the Farseer is more than twice the price of a Succubus so clearly you'll want the cheaper of the two because apparently "cheaper" always equates to "better". Meanwhile, I'll take the plunge and suffer having to have a Farseer in my DE army. That sound fair?

It`s not fair for you, what will you do with HQ that can`t buff your units, don`t have stategems and have 0 fighting power ? I see you think farseer will come with the powers and the stratagems, sorry but they are in different book.

Joke aside you want eldar pshychics powers sorry, but that don`t make your HQ choices bad

Marin wrote:

I`m getting better version of Autarch on foot, that have decent melee and invul save.

How are either of them better than the Autarch?

The Autarch has a much better melee weapon (plus far more ranged options if you use the Index), a vastly better aura, and a transport where you can actually fit him in with a squad.

Also, I'd trade the Archon's Shadowfield for the Autarch's 4++ in a heartbeat.

Marin wrote:

The topic is worse that Land Raider, i showed you some HQ that are worst than Archon and Saccumbus, because i think you are just whining without real reason.

Except that you nothing you said was a rebuttal to any of the issues I raised.

All you said was 'But muh Phoenix Lords'.

Frankly, you are the one who seems to be whining. If you want to make a case that Phoenix Lords are bad, go nuts. I fail to see, however, why Phoenix Lords being bad somehow makes the terrible DE HQs suddenly good.

Marin wrote:

I don`t search for any sympathy, every faction need to have different strength and weak points. Except the Draznar all your HQ are good, even Draznar is good, but it`s overpriced.

Again, you have yet to provide a shred of evidence for this.

I've provided a whole list of issues with DE HQs, and all I've seen from you is "nah, they're good rly".

Marin wrote:

Should Archon be cheaper ? Maybe, maybe not, game designers will decide that. Is Archon bad as you claim ? Certainly no, he is good HQ.

Should []the Phoenix Lords] be cheaper ? Maybe, maybe not, game designers will decide that. Are the [Phoenix Lords] bad as you claim ? Certainly no, they are good HQ.

See, when you provide 0 evidence, I can just turn your own argument round on you.

Hell, by this logic, every unit in the game is great because I can just write it and apparently that makes it true.

Who needs logic, reason or evidence when we can just provide circular-reasoning.

Marin wrote:

Sorry there is no full happiness in list building, that is the reason being cheap is useful for the list.

What does this even mean?

Marin wrote:
I think Kebalites are on of the cheapest infantry squads you can take, so that really give you points for other stuff.

By that logic, the existence of Storm Guardians invalidates all your complaints about Phoenix Lords.

Marin wrote:
DE have cheap open topped transports something that a lot of CWE players cry about.

Excuse me while I get out my telescope.

Yes . . . yes . . . I think I can just about make out where you've moved the goalposts to.

Marin wrote:
I guess everything wants what they don`t have.

I'd settle for DE getting back what they used to have.

Also, I'm not sure why you're saying this, given that you were the one who elected to pick a fight over which Eldar faction has the better HQs.

Marin wrote:

Skyrunner have less attacks and his weapon is strong only during charge and i`ts still 30 pts more.

I would gladly give up an attack if it meant the ability to get a weapon that has (compared to the Huskblade) +2S on the charge, 2 better AP, more consistent damage, *and* a free shooting attack.

Also, do you know how much DE players would pay for a fething Jetbike HQ? Let alone one with an aura that can buff their entire army *and* has a chance of gaining them extra CPs.

Marin wrote:
It`s not fair for you, what will you do with HQ that can`t buff your units, don`t have stategems and have 0 fighting power ?

That literally sums up my current HQ choices.

What you have utterly failed to understand is that I would gladly take a Farseer over my current HQs - even if its powers weren't changed to work on Drukhari units. That's how irredeemably abysmal the Archon and Succubus are.

Marin wrote:
Joke aside you want eldar pshychics powers sorry, but that don`t make your HQ choices bad

I didn't say it did. I said the Succubus being cheaper than a Farseer didn't equate to it being in any way better or more efficient, but it seems you missed that point.

I was, however, kind enough to provide you with a whole list of reasons on why the Archon and Succubus are bad (none of which involved comparisons with Eldar HQs or a lack of psychic powers). Maybe you could have read that, rather than responding to a whole lot of claims that I didn't make in the first place?

ryuken87 wrote:
Court of the Archon.

They are basically characters without the CHARACTER keyword, so a 2/3 wound model that just gets shot.

If you put your Archon in a Venom, it can be worth it to give them a single, cheap Court of the Archon model (I use a Lhamaean, kitbashed from spare bits) to reduce the chances of your Archon being the one who bites the dust if the Venom gets destroyed. If the sacrificial model survives, it can help the Archon in other ways (e.g. absorb overwatch before the Archon charges into the fray).

Actually, possesed, we had greater possesed allready , might aswell also put down their smaller some chromosomes short version:

A possesed is a 20 pts model. (at one point even 22 ppm)

Now you'd asume that they would be generally be worth it.

they have B7 (ok i mean nice) and W2 (he basically a primaris?) and S5 (great)
the rest is literally tac marine statline.

They have ap-2 and D1 so allready worse then most weapon options chaos has.
They have d3 attacks. No buffs, no option for a special weapon, no ranged attack of any kind ( not even frag nades)

So on average you have a 20 pts model generating 2 attacks with S5 Ap-2 D1.

A khorne berzerker just with an axe for 3 pts less, gets baseline 4 attacks with his dublefighting ability allready. S6 ap -1 and is still cheaper. Infact with an additional Chainsword he has 4 attacks S6 ap-1 and 2 with S5.
Whilest beeing casually 3 pts cheaper / model.

Remembering the statement about the greater possesed, beeing also so bad because they fullfill a role allready better fullfilled by cheaper alternatives?
Yeah, this same instance, except the buyable unit sucks instead of just beeing decent.

Khorne Berserkers are two attacks base, not four.