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G2A is basically the Napster of video games. The only reason to use it is if you’re an edgy teenager who likes pretending your not stealing from the people who make your favorite things.

Epic is obviously garbage, but the fact that so many indies are eager to jump on the deal really isn't surprising. First, direct influx of cash vs potential cash from sales is always nice for security, and two, good luck getting noticed on steam without spending big on youtuber/influencer marketing.
Steam has almost no oversight to speak of, so every garbage "game" that wouldn't be out of place on Itch.io or a flash games website clogs their "new releases" feed. I literally find my new indie titles by following a few letsplayers on YT, because eff ever browsing steam directly. Epic can very easily exploit that.

Aye Steam could do with a big overhaul of their front page and also their submission and approval system. The way I see it they saw games like Minecraft make a fortune and basically relaxed most of their application process to try and let more of those kind of games through. Sadly Greenlight and their current "pay us a nominal fee" approaches basically didn't work. It's flooded Steam with a lot of dross that wasn't there a few years back.

Indies can still do ok if they advertise, but any indie with a smaller budget or any niche title game might not make it onto the front page for very long if at all to get noticed. Once it would have guaranteed a week or so sitting there on the front page - now its not. Heck the steam front page is so cluttered with stuff now that it almost hides all the upcoming games barring the one on the banner.

Curration is one of my biggest gripes with steam.

And about the only thing epic has going for it from a custommer perspective.
However also from a custommer perspective, they are owned by tencent. I don't like that company, i won't go there. (not all are as paranoid as me though )

 Melissia wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I use G2A for most of my keys.

You really shouldn't. G2A is basically a money laundering site for identity thieves.

I've looked into it a lot over the years, and I really think some of the claims against them are over-exaggerated. They definitely have an issue with things like stolen keys, however, they've taken quite a few steps to improve their ability to filter out and punish accounts attempting to sell stolen materials. They've even started trying to work with Developers to create incentives and help them grow as well and have even begun to set up a key blocking tool so that developers can choose to allow or disallow their games to appear on the platform. They've even offered to pay independent developers a significant amount of money for lost charge-back issues.

https://www.g2a.co/g2a-proposes-a-key-blocking-tool-for-developers/

https://www.g2a.co/updated-g2a-vows-to-pay-devs-10x-the-money-proven-to-be-lost-on-chargebacks/

I think they're quite ernest in their willingness to hear complaints and take action to help improve their own business and the hobby itself. I typically use them for games that do not appear on Steam as I refuse to break up my library, so for me it is more about sticking it to EA/ActiBlizz than anything else.

I think at present developers still dislike G2A far more than they like. Things like the payback are as yet untested (no one has the money) and there's no talk that I've seen of long term means by which developers can continue to get payments on a rolling system to account for thefts and chargebacks.



Personally if I want cheap games I find that waiting, Fantaticals and Humble Bundle alongside Steam and GOG sales will generally get me cheap games.

 Togusa wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I use G2A for most of my keys.

You really shouldn't. G2A is basically a money laundering site for identity thieves.

I've looked into it a lot over the years, and I really think some of the claims against them are over-exaggerated. They definitely have an issue with things like stolen keys, however, they've taken quite a few steps to improve their ability to filter out and punish accounts attempting to sell stolen materials. They've even started trying to work with Developers to create incentives and help them grow as well and have even begun to set up a key blocking tool so that developers can choose to allow or disallow their games to appear on the platform. They've even offered to pay independent developers a significant amount of money for lost charge-back issues.

https://www.g2a.co/g2a-proposes-a-key-blocking-tool-for-developers/

https://www.g2a.co/updated-g2a-vows-to-pay-devs-10x-the-money-proven-to-be-lost-on-chargebacks/

I think they're quite ernest in their willingness to hear complaints and take action to help improve their own business and the hobby itself. I typically use them for games that do not appear on Steam as I refuse to break up my library, so for me it is more about sticking it to EA/ActiBlizz than anything else.

Of which G2A has yet actually to do anything.

The tool for exemple was claimed to be massively expensive (which it isn't to make but G2A if full of gak)

And G2A recently got challanged by the makers of Factzorio to pay up 300'000 $ which they haven't yet procurred.

G2A is anything but reliable or ernest, or even honest.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I use G2A for most of my keys.

You really shouldn't. G2A is basically a money laundering site for identity thieves.

I've looked into it a lot over the years, and I really think some of the claims against them are over-exaggerated. They definitely have an issue with things like stolen keys, however, they've taken quite a few steps to improve their ability to filter out and punish accounts attempting to sell stolen materials. They've even started trying to work with Developers to create incentives and help them grow as well and have even begun to set up a key blocking tool so that developers can choose to allow or disallow their games to appear on the platform. They've even offered to pay independent developers a significant amount of money for lost charge-back issues.

https://www.g2a.co/g2a-proposes-a-key-blocking-tool-for-developers/

https://www.g2a.co/updated-g2a-vows-to-pay-devs-10x-the-money-proven-to-be-lost-on-chargebacks/

I think they're quite ernest in their willingness to hear complaints and take action to help improve their own business and the hobby itself. I typically use them for games that do not appear on Steam as I refuse to break up my library, so for me it is more about sticking it to EA/ActiBlizz than anything else.

Of which G2A has yet actually to do anything.

The tool for exemple was claimed to be massively expensive (which it isn't to make but G2A if full of gak)

And G2A recently got challanged by the makers of Factzorio to pay up 300'000 $ which they haven't yet procurred.

G2A is anything but reliable or ernest, or even honest.

For things like these, it takes time. You don't just snap your fingers and pay Factzorio 300 grand.

People are far to quick to jump on the hate bandwagon these days....

 Togusa wrote:
For things like these, it takes time. You don't just snap your fingers and pay Factzorio 300 grand.

People are far to quick to jump on the hate bandwagon these days....

More like people are way to quick to give up and start making excuses for abusive behavior these days.

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I use G2A for most of my keys.

You really shouldn't. G2A is basically a money laundering site for identity thieves.

I've looked into it a lot over the years, and I really think some of the claims against them are over-exaggerated. They definitely have an issue with things like stolen keys, however, they've taken quite a few steps to improve their ability to filter out and punish accounts attempting to sell stolen materials. They've even started trying to work with Developers to create incentives and help them grow as well and have even begun to set up a key blocking tool so that developers can choose to allow or disallow their games to appear on the platform. They've even offered to pay independent developers a significant amount of money for lost charge-back issues.

https://www.g2a.co/g2a-proposes-a-key-blocking-tool-for-developers/

https://www.g2a.co/updated-g2a-vows-to-pay-devs-10x-the-money-proven-to-be-lost-on-chargebacks/

I think they're quite ernest in their willingness to hear complaints and take action to help improve their own business and the hobby itself. I typically use them for games that do not appear on Steam as I refuse to break up my library, so for me it is more about sticking it to EA/ActiBlizz than anything else.

Of which G2A has yet actually to do anything.

The tool for exemple was claimed to be massively expensive (which it isn't to make but G2A if full of gak)

And G2A recently got challanged by the makers of Factzorio to pay up 300'000 $ which they haven't yet procurred.

G2A is anything but reliable or ernest, or even honest.

For things like these, it takes time. You don't just snap your fingers and pay Factzorio 300 grand.

People are far to quick to jump on the hate bandwagon these days....

I mean it's only been 3 months and the only response from G2A was to announce they weren't going to make the tool. I'm certain they are upright, honest and totally meaning to get around to those refunds by 3050.

Btw, for such a huge ass Marketplace, don't you find the lack of available funds to run a bit critical low if that would be the case Togusa?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I use G2A for most of my keys.

You really shouldn't. G2A is basically a money laundering site for identity thieves.

I've looked into it a lot over the years, and I really think some of the claims against them are over-exaggerated. They definitely have an issue with things like stolen keys, however, they've taken quite a few steps to improve their ability to filter out and punish accounts attempting to sell stolen materials. They've even started trying to work with Developers to create incentives and help them grow as well and have even begun to set up a key blocking tool so that developers can choose to allow or disallow their games to appear on the platform. They've even offered to pay independent developers a significant amount of money for lost charge-back issues.

https://www.g2a.co/g2a-proposes-a-key-blocking-tool-for-developers/

https://www.g2a.co/updated-g2a-vows-to-pay-devs-10x-the-money-proven-to-be-lost-on-chargebacks/

I think they're quite ernest in their willingness to hear complaints and take action to help improve their own business and the hobby itself. I typically use them for games that do not appear on Steam as I refuse to break up my library, so for me it is more about sticking it to EA/ActiBlizz than anything else.

Of which G2A has yet actually to do anything.

The tool for exemple was claimed to be massively expensive (which it isn't to make but G2A if full of gak)

And G2A recently got challanged by the makers of Factorio to pay up 300'000 $ which they haven't yet procurred.

G2A is anything but reliable or ernest, or even honest.

For things like these, it takes time. You don't just snap your fingers and pay Factzorio 300 grand.

People are far to quick to jump on the hate bandwagon these days....

I mean it's only been 3 months and the only response from G2A was to announce they weren't going to make the tool. I'm certain they are upright, honest and totally meaning to get around to those refunds by 3050.

Btw, for such a huge ass Marketplace, don't you find the lack of available funds to run a bit critical low if that would be the case Togusa?

What do you mean?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
For things like these, it takes time. You don't just snap your fingers and pay Factzorio 300 grand.

People are far to quick to jump on the hate bandwagon these days....

More like people are way to quick to give up and start making excuses for abusive behavior these days.

No doubt, but I like to research these things before I turn. Currently I am looking up some of the things that were mentioned in this thread so that I can see what has transpired since the articles I shared were published.

What do you mean?

I mean that a market place off that size that can't throw up that ammount of money easily, even though knowingly operating in a legaly questionable realm, is strange.
Especially compared to their boast of 10x replacement, don't you think?

Their offer of 10* the lost money is a very overly generous offer. Most companies with a problem wouldn't turn around and offer ten times the money owed over the issue unless there was some major reason:

1) They feel its a big cost but cheaper than marketing to repair the damage to lost revenue by developers turning customers away from them.

2) It's a smokescreen that they hope to dissuade the developers badmouthing them for a time by making an offer and then locking them up for several months, or longer with negotiations and deals and suchlike.

3) They were unaware of the actual scale of the problem and thus made an overly generous offer which they thought wouldn't come with as great a cost as it is likely to become. This might mean their intentions were good, just that they were unaware of the scale of hteir own issue; which would be a stretch considering the store is one of the places that should get loads of complaints when keys are withdrawn due to theft.


If they had just offered to repay the money lost that would have been " just as good" but 10 times is a boastful value. Perhaps they really are raking in that much money and they perceive the theft problem being that small; perhaps is a smoke screen to prolong the site before all the cards come tumbling down

Their offer of 10 times the money lost is also a smokescreen because it's not legally enforceable. Contracts require two-way consideration; gifts are not contracts, and the promise to give a gift is not something you can be compelled to fulfill. It is nothing more than a gimmick to save face, because by the time reports of them not fulfilling the promise get on the news, they expect the controversy to be over and therefor they'll get away with it.

Not Online!!! wrote:

What do you mean?

I mean that a market place off that size that can't throw up that ammount of money easily, even though knowingly operating in a legaly questionable realm, is strange.
Especially compared to their boast of 10x replacement, don't you think?

I really don't. I am not understanding what you mean.

Are you saying that because a payment hasn't yet been made (assuming it will be eventually) that this means they don't have as much money as they claim to?

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

What do you mean?

I mean that a market place off that size that can't throw up that ammount of money easily, even though knowingly operating in a legaly questionable realm, is strange.
Especially compared to their boast of 10x replacement, don't you think?

I really don't. I am not understanding what you mean.

Are you saying that because a payment hasn't yet been made (assuming it will be eventually) that this means they don't have as much money as they claim to?

No i am saying that they have a missmanagement of security liquidity. Which is gak buissness planning.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Their offer of 10 times the money lost is also a smokescreen because it's not legally enforceable. Contracts require two-way consideration; gifts are not contracts, and the promise to give a gift is not something you can be compelled to fulfill. It is nothing more than a gimmick to save face, because by the time reports of them not fulfilling the promise get on the news, they expect the controversy to be over and therefor they'll get away with it.

Ayy it is a smoke screen, that doesn't change that someone now want's to see if it is Actuallly a smokescreen and badmouth them even harder or get his "due"share now doesn't it.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

What do you mean?

I mean that a market place off that size that can't throw up that ammount of money easily, even though knowingly operating in a legaly questionable realm, is strange.
Especially compared to their boast of 10x replacement, don't you think?

I really don't. I am not understanding what you mean.

Are you saying that because a payment hasn't yet been made (assuming it will be eventually) that this means they don't have as much money as they claim to?

No i am saying that they have a missmanagement of security liquidity. Which is gak buissness planning.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Their offer of 10 times the money lost is also a smokescreen because it's not legally enforceable. Contracts require two-way consideration; gifts are not contracts, and the promise to give a gift is not something you can be compelled to fulfill. It is nothing more than a gimmick to save face, because by the time reports of them not fulfilling the promise get on the news, they expect the controversy to be over and therefor they'll get away with it.

Ayy it is a smoke screen, that doesn't change that someone now want's to see if it is Actuallly a smokescreen and badmouth them even harder or get his "due"share now doesn't it.

It's possible. But I don't know anything about economics and haven't looked up how well or bad their company is doing.

Remember what i told you?

Na, it's tried and true robber Barons tactic.
And imo grounds for anti Kartell laws to kick in.
But that would require actual change in the circumstancial landscape of politics and big buisness and considering we allow exorbitant prices on life saving medication nothing will change in a comparativly unimportant market.

Yep, saw that earlier. It's clear that Epic has no interest in "bettering the market", and that was all just marketing lies.

"We don't have the bandwidth to sell this small indie game developed by a single person."
-- Producer behind Fortnite, the most successful game in the world, lying their asses off because they're liars.

 Melissia wrote:
Yep, saw that earlier. It's clear that Epic has no interest in "bettering the market", and that was all just marketing lies.

"We don't have the bandwidth to sell this small indie game developed by a single person."
-- Producer behind Fortnite, the most successful game in the world, lying their asses off because they're liars.

Considering that game is also just online available, one would expect them to have atleast basic ideas about online infrastructure.

Cronch wrote:
... but the fact that so many indies are eager to jump on the deal really isn't surprising...

I don't think indies jumping into bed with Epic is a problem (as long as said indies haven't taken pre-orders on steam/made promises about Steam/based their Kickstarter around steam).

It's the ones that do that, and the greedy AAA's that don't need the extra cash but do it anyway, they're the scum here.

Thing is for Indies Epic offers several big bonuses

1) The Golden Handshake for exclusivity - that in itself is a big guaranteed payout of a very significant portion

2) Guaranteed sales profit. Epic has a clause whereby if the game makes less sales than projected, Epic will cover the difference.

3) Bigger royalties per sale. For indies that might not ship hundreds of thousands of units easily this is another big bonus

4) Greater exposure. Whilst Epic isn't that popular, it still is a big store and the exclusives will keep cornering more and more customers. Right now Steam is a marketing mess and their front page can easily lose indie games who can't stump up the money for advertising space on the page.


Overall I can see why indies want in and even big AAA developers too. Epic is basically offering them a chance for easier profits and potentially greater profits. For indies or AAA games these are big numbers for those developers.

I don't think AAA games are being "scum" for going after money any more than indie games or any other developer - going after the money is kinda the whole point of running companies and this is pretty easy money to go after. I agree with regard to the predatory nature of Epic poaching games that already promised and even took pre-order money for other distribution networks. I think the drama there would be far less if Epic presented as a capable, feature rich store front and had a good track record of consumer support. IF GOG started getting predatory people would complain, but in the end they'd likely not complain half as much.

Also lets not forget that thus far games are actually selling rather well on Epic; its showing that the greater majority of complaints are "hot air" from a minority in the market. There ARE serious and valid concerns, but at present its a bit like paid lootboxes. It's bad for the health of the market, but financially it IS working.

A bigger royalties means nothing when they don't sell any copies because a) People don't want to use EGS and b) They piss off their potential customers by accepting EGS bribe money.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
A bigger royalties means nothing when they don't sell any copies because a) People don't want to use EGS and b) They piss off their potential customers by accepting EGS bribe money.

Very true, but from what I gather games are still selling pretty well on Epic store and the more exclusives they bag the greater their customer pool becomes. Plus Epic has guaranteed a minimum number of sales for the games. That in itself is a massive boon for many developers.


Of course my impression is that at present Epic is happy to lose money on the store or at least profit less whilst growing their marketbase and dominance in the market. Once they've grown up many of these bonuses might go away. Esp since they are takinga significantly smaller percentage from each sale.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
A bigger royalties means nothing when they don't sell any copies because a) People don't want to use EGS and b) They piss off their potential customers by accepting EGS bribe money.

This is as opposed to Steam bribe money, which is clean and acceptable.

I suspect that most people are triggered by the idea of having to shop on a store other than Steam. Valve has put a lot of legal and marketing money down to condition them and they aren't going to shake it for anything. I mean, Valve has been treating its customers like chattel for years and never suffered for it. .

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
A bigger royalties means nothing when they don't sell any copies because a) People don't want to use EGS and b) They piss off their potential customers by accepting EGS bribe money.

This is as opposed to Steam bribe money, which is clean and acceptable.

I suspect that most people are triggered by the idea of having to shop on a store other than Steam. Valve has put a lot of legal and marketing money down to condition them and they aren't going to shake it for anything. I mean, Valve has been treating its customers like chattel for years and never suffered for it. .

Show me when Valve has ever bribed a game dev to sell ONLY on Steam and nowhere else?

Well with any luck lootboxes get banned and Epic then feth off and die in a corner. Since there entire current bussiness model revolves around scamming kids I doubt they could recover from a ban.

If steam has had to bribe games onto their service then it was years ago when they were getting started. Otherwise right now steam is pretty much the baseline for getting released on PC - even more so now that its open submission. There's a paltry fee, which is likely voided/not even a bother for any major publisher; whilst even for small indies the amount of cost it has is tiny. Sure its another cost, but it should be nothing more than a handful of copies to recoup.

Steam doesn't have to secure exclusivity; heck for a long time it was pretty much exclusive because they were the only decent name in the game. A position they maintained until GOG came along and even then it took years for GOG to rise up. Meanwhile services like Battlenet and Uplay are limited to one publisher block (and Uplay sells through steam anyway. Origin is about the only other competition and they've never really pushed to beat steam; just secure enough interest in the market to keep the MS games selling strongly as their own exclusives.


Epic wanted a slice of Steam's pie so securing exclusives was a very smart and likely the only way to achieve that. It's what any other major company would have done to secure a slice of the pie in a meaningful way in a very short span of time. Epic's strategy is all about fast growth. Heck it might even be that the potential clamping down on lootboxes is what's driving them to want to use their current money and grow a fast service to replace their lootbox earnings. Plus any mmo company knows that any mmo is always on a time limit and, at some point, will stop being "the new hotness" and die off.

Yeah, the only thing really exclusive on Steam right now, IIRC, is the "console" and controller they themselves created to work with Steam. And even that is probably not. If a dev who has released on Steam wants to release on GoG or somewhere else, Valve never objects to it.

Don't get me wrong. I could gak all over Valve for their ineptitude in trying to solve problems due to their trying to focus on algorithms to solve them instead of using any sort of sense. They're not saints or angels by any means. But at least when you talk about how bad Valve is, talk about things that are actually true.