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Peregrine wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
GW have repeatedly enforced that they are a model company first, gaming company second. They design models to look fun, immersive and diverse, which means NOT a Ctrl+C Ctrl+V of the same dude over and over.

And whoever set that policy should be fired for incompetence. The market has spoken, and the market wants uniform squads and the model components to build them. GW needs to STFU with their nonsense excuses and delusions about "back in 1980 we played full WYSIWYG with random weapons because rolling a D6 to decide what your squad is armed with is FORGING A NARRATIVE" and provide what their customers are demanding.

Peregrine wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
GW have repeatedly enforced that they are a model company first, gaming company second. They design models to look fun, immersive and diverse, which means NOT a Ctrl+C Ctrl+V of the same dude over and over.

And whoever set that policy should be fired for incompetence. The market has spoken, and the market wants uniform squads and the model components to build them. GW needs to STFU with their nonsense excuses and delusions about "back in 1980 we played full WYSIWYG with random weapons because rolling a D6 to decide what your squad is armed with is FORGING A NARRATIVE" and provide what their customers are demanding.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
GW have repeatedly enforced that they are a model company first, gaming company second. They design models to look fun, immersive and diverse, which means NOT a Ctrl+C Ctrl+V of the same dude over and over.

And whoever set that policy should be fired for incompetence. The market has spoken, and the market wants uniform squads and the model components to build them. GW needs to STFU with their nonsense excuses and delusions about "back in 1980 we played full WYSIWYG with random weapons because rolling a D6 to decide what your squad is armed with is FORGING A NARRATIVE" and provide what their customers are demanding.

In which case, why not just sell pre-built, pre-painted chess-pieces? The competitive crowd pushes this min-max mindset on every aspect of the company and hobby but there's other people who want variety and that Forge a Narrative setup. Neither are wrong, but complaining you don't get a full set of every single weapon on every single kit is bonkers.

Plus the third-party side of things - GW provides a havoc squad with 4x Lascannons, 4x chaincannons, 4x plasma, 4x missiles, all sergeant loadouts. That's a lot of leftover pieces for a savvy customer to buy up a bunch of used marine bodies and make a whole bunch of extra dudes. Sure, that can happen even now, but its a lot more beneficial to the company to limit the number of spare pieces.

It's also hillarious if we consider the fact that even if GW would think Copy paste would be bad, then why the feth do the NEW csm Kits have the excact same loadout options as tacticals?

Because they're the evil counterpart to Tacticals and have the same exact setup? They have the same options because they counterpart the Tacticals. I don't get what you're complaining about?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

redboi wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

redboi wrote:
I noticed this as well. Just more nonsensical rules writing by GW. It's like someone wrote a rough draft for the lieutenant and then just sent it out like that without anyone taking a second glance at it to check for consistency

Or maybe they don't want characters able to charge turn 1?

Bruh they gave the Captain infiltrate. Clearly its not an issue. How is a lieutenant charging in with his squad with his S4 0AP attacks a problem? Meanwhile I can jump an 80pt warboss and obliterate a knight turn one


The problem is that his war gear is flipped. Arm him like an infiltrator and he has grav chutes like a reiver and can't infiltrate with the squad. Arm him like a reiver and he loses his grav chutes and can't drop with the reivers

Well, the reroll wounds could be considered an issue for drop podders and exploding wounds. Or they simply didn't want a carbon copy.

It doesn't really matter.

Yet I can stick a normal lieutenant in the pod, or give one a jump pack, or just keep the phobos one and just not make him a reiver and keep his grav chutes. Not mentioning the fact that pods are dropping turn 1 before normal DSers

They goofed hard on this one bro, you don't have to defend every stupid mistake they make with even dumber excuses

 Deadshot wrote:
The rule is in place to avoid allowing other companies room to make conversion bits. Third Parties can't make Grav Chute conversion kits if the base model can't take Grav Chutes, and supplying them with the base kit reduces the chances of someone going third party.

That would make sense if ETB reivers came with them but the cheapest option to field 5 man squad doesn't have them.

Then you have stuff like SM captain on a bike, IG ogryn bodyguard, GK walkie grandmaster, or primaris melee options, all of which have zero official models...

 Ishagu wrote:
Reivers are great in a Repulsor as a cheap assault unit. Stick the Reiver Lt in with them.

Why on holy Terra would you do that when A ) intercessors are troops, B ) for almost the same points you get 50% more gun damage, C ) they have far better damage output due to actual melee weapons on sarge, D ) the forward ones can be veteranized for 1 CP making reivers even weaker in comparison?

Literally the only point of reivers is infiltration of backline and if you can't even add a character that is supposed to be with them in the first place to try to make up for all their deficiences then what good are they?

redboi wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

redboi wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

redboi wrote:
I noticed this as well. Just more nonsensical rules writing by GW. It's like someone wrote a rough draft for the lieutenant and then just sent it out like that without anyone taking a second glance at it to check for consistency

Or maybe they don't want characters able to charge turn 1?

Bruh they gave the Captain infiltrate. Clearly its not an issue. How is a lieutenant charging in with his squad with his S4 0AP attacks a problem? Meanwhile I can jump an 80pt warboss and obliterate a knight turn one


The problem is that his war gear is flipped. Arm him like an infiltrator and he has grav chutes like a reiver and can't infiltrate with the squad. Arm him like a reiver and he loses his grav chutes and can't drop with the reivers

Well, the reroll wounds could be considered an issue for drop podders and exploding wounds. Or they simply didn't want a carbon copy.

It doesn't really matter.

Yet I can stick a normal lieutenant in the pod, or give one a jump pack, or just keep the phobos one and just not make him a reiver and keep his grav chutes. Not mentioning the fact that pods are dropping turn 1 before normal DSers

They goofed hard on this one bro, you don't have to defend every stupid mistake they make with even dumber excuses

Goofed hard? Oh noes. Army useless!

People don't need to make a mountain out of a mole hill, either.

It doesn't really matter.

If you want to drop a pod for a single lieutenant be my guest. I imagine those invictor dreadnoughts greatly welcome reroll to wound on the front lines.

 Irbis wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The rule is in place to avoid allowing other companies room to make conversion bits. Third Parties can't make Grav Chute conversion kits if the base model can't take Grav Chutes, and supplying them with the base kit reduces the chances of someone going third party.

That would make sense if ETB reivers came with them but the cheapest option to field 5 man squad doesn't have them.

Then you have stuff like SM captain on a bike, IG ogryn bodyguard, GK walkie grandmaster, or primaris melee options, all of which have zero official

ETB are shortcuts for noobs. They arent meant to have all the kit that one could dream of. They're quick and easy models that newbie modellers dont get discouraged by.

SM captain on bike has the Biker Commander conversion kit. Ogryn bodyguard can be made using the parts in the Ogryn box. GKNDGM is just a dreadknight, there's no model difference other than a GM version maybe being a bit blingy-er. Primaris Lieutenants and Captains are interchangeable with Sergeants, so there exists already options for Power Sword, Power Fist and Chainsword.

Lieutenants maybe, Captains are noticably different. Although for the purposes of this discussion GW did release an upgrade sprue for Intercessors that makes it a moot point, the bits exist and you're buying something else either way.

Edit: GW did release a melee upgrade sprue didn't they? Am I taking crazy pills here?

The Newman wrote:
Lieutenants maybe, Captains are noticably different. Although for the purposes of this discussion GW did release an upgrade sprue for Intercessors that makes it a moot point, the bits exist and you're buying something else either way.

Edit: GW did release a melee upgrade sprue didn't they? Am I taking crazy pills here?

Yes and no...

The UM sprue has a power sword,the BA a chainsword, DA a power sword, and IF a power fist. So they're just all over the place...

 Deadshot wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The rule is in place to avoid allowing other companies room to make conversion bits. Third Parties can't make Grav Chute conversion kits if the base model can't take Grav Chutes, and supplying them with the base kit reduces the chances of someone going third party.

That would make sense if ETB reivers came with them but the cheapest option to field 5 man squad doesn't have them.

Then you have stuff like SM captain on a bike, IG ogryn bodyguard, GK walkie grandmaster, or primaris melee options, all of which have zero official

ETB are shortcuts for noobs. They arent meant to have all the kit that one could dream of. They're quick and easy models that newbie modellers dont get discouraged by.

SM captain on bike has the Biker Commander conversion kit. Ogryn bodyguard can be made using the parts in the Ogryn box. GKNDGM is just a dreadknight, there's no model difference other than a GM version maybe being a bit blingy-er. Primaris Lieutenants and Captains are interchangeable with Sergeants, so there exists already options for Power Sword, Power Fist and Chainsword.

I've actually bought a ETB kit of intercessors so I could try out a paint scheme I was developing without having issues with my actual squads.

Etb are an easy way to add at minimum 3 new poses to your intercessors/hellblasters & reivers/infil/incur.

I have current plans for a gravis capt w flamestorms, grenade, & TH. using a mix of etb, main kit & DI gravcapt.

mixing an etb redemptor & the full kit to build more variation in the poses. same goes for the BAC redemptor & resin relic one.

Whilst I in general level agree with GWs model first approach, and letting the designers to come up with any sort of models they think look cool without the rules team interfering, they might be taking it a bit too far. Like I really think that there should be some consulting with the rule people before the finishing touches. For example with this Reiver lieutenant I really do not think that it would have interfered with the artist's vision terribly much if they had been told to put grav chutes on the sprue so that the poor sod can actually get into combat and perhaps even a power cord on the blade that he can actually kill someone.

Racerguy180 wrote:
Etb are an easy way to add at minimum 3 new poses to your intercessors/hellblasters & reivers/infil/incur.

I have current plans for a gravis capt w flamestorms, grenade, & TH. using a mix of etb, main kit & DI gravcapt.

mixing an etb redemptor & the full kit to build more variation in the poses. same goes for the BAC redemptor & resin relic one.

Unfortunately the EBT kits don't generally swap parts with the non-EBT kits without significant modification. True about mixing up the poses though.

The Newman wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Etb are an easy way to add at minimum 3 new poses to your intercessors/hellblasters & reivers/infil/incur.

I have current plans for a gravis capt w flamestorms, grenade, & TH. using a mix of etb, main kit & DI gravcapt.

mixing an etb redemptor & the full kit to build more variation in the poses. same goes for the BAC redemptor & resin relic one.

Unfortunately the EBT kits don't generally swap parts with the non-EBT kits without significant modification. True about mixing up the poses though.

its not as significant as you think. convert a metal model, that's significant.

 Crimson wrote:
Whilst I in general level agree with GWs model first approach, and letting the designers to come up with any sort of models they think look cool without the rules team interfering, they might be taking it a bit too far. Like I really think that there should be some consulting with the rule people before the finishing touches. For example with this Reiver lieutenant I really do not think that it would have interfered with the artist's vision terribly much if they had been told to put grav chutes on the sprue so that the poor sod can actually get into combat and perhaps even a power cord on the blade that he can actually kill someone.

I think this is super important, things that function and are needed in the game are far more cool than something that just pops into existence and gets pushed out with less thought. Things like this should happen rarely, but i think it happens far to often.
Artistic vision on this case should be part of the game, as that itself should be part of the art and narrative.

 Deadshot wrote:
ETB are shortcuts for noobs. They arent meant to have all the kit that one could dream of. They're quick and easy models that newbie modellers dont get discouraged by.

Wrong. Even leaving aside the fact it's great source of cheap bodies with new poses to use with your leftover bits, these are honestly bad for noobs. Too many traps an inexperienced modeller might fall into. Also, if they really weren't intended as a cheap way to build minimum squad, they would not include the sarge, but would be 3 random dudes like multiple oldmarine ETB tryout kits...

 Deadshot wrote:
SM captain on bike has the Biker Commander conversion kit. Ogryn bodyguard can be made using the parts in the Ogryn box. GKNDGM is just a dreadknight, there's no model difference other than a GM version maybe being a bit blingy-er. Primaris Lieutenants and Captains are interchangeable with Sergeants, so there exists already options for Power Sword, Power Fist and Chainsword.

Riiight. And why I can't use that bike on chaplain or librarian? Also, wrong with GKNDGM, it looks significantly different (at least on GW photos) and is far more blinged out than standard one. As for primaris, ahahahahahahahahahaha. Interchangeable? What? I can take power fist on intercessor sarge. Where is fist option on captain (save for mega-ultra-limited-model) or Lt? Conversely, why Lt can only take sword + pistol or rifle when sarge can take sword + rifle? Why Lt and captain can't take bolt rifle like sarge? Where is thunder hammer option on cap or lt? Sarge can take one. Why DA lt can take plasma pistol, but sarge and regular lt can't? The frakking bit is right there in hellblaster box! Why reivers inanely can't take ANY melee option despite sharing arms with the rest of primaris range? Why hellblaster sarge, literally identical to intercessor one save for rifle choice, has zero options in comparison? Where are primaris power mauls? Why wolfwolves stole all primaris power axes (and, to make it even funnier, their Lt can take reiver rifle for some reason). Etc, etc...

 Irbis wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
ETB are shortcuts for noobs. They arent meant to have all the kit that one could dream of. They're quick and easy models that newbie modellers dont get discouraged by.

Wrong.

Except he's not, GW's own product descriptions for ETB kits outright state that they're marketed as much at new modellers as people just wanting to test schemes. That doesn't mean they're all perfect for it, but it's the explicit intention.

Racerguy180 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Etb are an easy way to add at minimum 3 new poses to your intercessors/hellblasters & reivers/infil/incur.

I have current plans for a gravis capt w flamestorms, grenade, & TH. using a mix of etb, main kit & DI gravcapt.

mixing an etb redemptor & the full kit to build more variation in the poses. same goes for the BAC redemptor & resin relic one.

Unfortunately the EBT kits don't generally swap parts with the non-EBT kits without significant modification. True about mixing up the poses though.

its not as significant as you think. convert a metal model, that's significant.

I've done both, so it's exactly as significant as I think it is. The EBT kits have the cables and what-not molded differently so using (just for example) the extra Assault Bolters from the full Inceptor kit on the EBT Inceptors takes a fair bit of work trying to line things up since you can't easily bend things on a plastic kit.

Working with metal is much harder, I'll grant you that.

just replace cables/wires with real cables and wires. a $2 trip to hardware store will nab you enuff for plenty of conversions.

Racerguy180 wrote:
just replace cables/wires with real cables and wires. a $2 trip to hardware store will nab you enuff for plenty of conversions.

Assuming you already have all the tools lying around. If you're new to the hobby you're looking at a Pin Vice, drill bits, wire cutters, and either a Jewer's Saw or Plastic Snips. Half of those are specialty tools your average ACE isn't going to have in stock, and it's going to set you back quite a bit more that $2.

Not that any of those things are a bad investment in the long run. I'd recommend getting the Plastic Snips anyway, they make getting parts off the sprue without damaging them significantly easier that any other tool I've tried. And I don't know what I'd do without my pin vice, it makes modularization a snap.

I'm not trying to say it's hard to do, it's just not as straight-forward as you're making it out to be either. What it definitely isn't is as easy as standard kit-bashing, which is what the original post I was replying to implied. Putting the Power Fist from a Tac Squad box on an Intercessor Sergeant, or even taking a right-handed Power Fist from a Taros Terminator box and putting it on an Intercessor Sergeant with a Gravis shoulder pad (since the shoulder is bigger on the Taros), those are zero-effort part swaps that even the greenest newb should be able to handle. The ETB kits are frequently not cut in the right places to make swaps like that ... non-trivial, let's say.

and plastic snips are easy to get, hell a kid could proably find a set in his dads tool bag.

I never said a person new to the hobby would be able to accomplish it. I was going more for those that have no problem thinking outside the box in adding/changing/swapping components/poses.

Yes the ETB are geared more for beginners with zero knowledge beforehand. They do give an additional, inexpensive way to test out theories on posing & paint schemes.

I recently snagged a ETB set myself to test out some colour schemes. worked out well as I had differant ideas for it. and it turns out the third time was the charm