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ThatMG wrote: The key problem with the topic and lore is there is so many "issues" with 40k.
Simply put many people treat 40k like other IPs and commonly view it with the mindset of "historical" Fact. This isn't how the universe is set.
There are multiple instances within 40k lore to suggest things like
Extreme Time Travel
Multi-Dimensions.
Parallel Universes.
That with the overlay of having it "40k can be whatever you want it to be." A cool hook to build of, not concrete lore.
That and many characters state "history is either extremely incorrect, only fractions of truth and prone to extreme exaggeration."
That doesn't include years of propaganda and/or misinformation spread by enemies of the IoM.
That is a lazy cop out to excuse a lack of continuity between authors and an unwillingness by GW to keep their "canon" clean.
Stories from a 1st person perspective should be considered factual. If you want do stuff with secondhand stories, propaganda, or parallel universes, it should be apparent to the reader that it should be taken with a grain of salt. The readers shouldn't have to pick and guess which stories are "real" and which stories are "questionable".
I disagree. Adaptions are always made when a story is told theough a different medium or time. Think marvel cinematic universe vs comics and middle earth movies vs novels.
Having a fluid canon, even one with different streams of reality, actually makes sense in a setting that may be used as a novel, an audio book, a graphic novel, a fps, a rts, a rpg, a tabletop skirmish, an epic wargame, a figurine, etc. the artist can make sure he tells the story in the best way that medium is capable of.
If you want an in universe explanation for conflicting realities just consider them as different paths of the skean. All thr realities that might be or might have been.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/17 17:11:18
ThatMG wrote: The key problem with the topic and lore is there is so many "issues" with 40k.
Simply put many people treat 40k like other IPs and commonly view it with the mindset of "historical" Fact. This isn't how the universe is set.
There are multiple instances within 40k lore to suggest things like
Extreme Time Travel
Multi-Dimensions.
Parallel Universes.
That with the overlay of having it "40k can be whatever you want it to be." A cool hook to build of, not concrete lore.
That and many characters state "history is either extremely incorrect, only fractions of truth and prone to extreme exaggeration."
That doesn't include years of propaganda and/or misinformation spread by enemies of the IoM.
That is a lazy cop out to excuse a lack of continuity between authors and an unwillingness by GW to keep their "canon" clean.
Stories from a 1st person perspective should be considered factual. If you want do stuff with secondhand stories, propaganda, or parallel universes, it should be apparent to the reader that it should be taken with a grain of salt. The readers shouldn't have to pick and guess which stories are "real" and which stories are "questionable".
I disagree. Adaptions are always made when a story is told theough a different medium or time. Think marvel cinematic universe vs comics and middle earth movies vs novels.
Having a fluid canon, even one with different streams of reality, actually makes sense in a setting that may be used as a novel, an audio book, a graphic novel, a fps, a rts, a rpg, a tabletop skirmish, an epic wargame, a figurine, etc. the artist can make sure he tells the story in the best way that medium is capable of.
If you want an in universe explanation for conflicting realities just consider them as different paths of the skean. All thr realities that might be or might have been.
Firstly, IIRC, the marvel cinematic universe and the comics are separate settings. Saying they are one in the same or even exist in the same setting is incorrect.
Secondly, to be completely honest, what you are describing disgusts me. A strong, overarching narrative is the hallmark of a good setting.
Having a "laissez faire" attitude where directly contradictory accounts of the same events exist in the same setting, and is justified by a "lighten up dude, they all happened and are all right"... I mean, why even HAVE a background setting at all at that point? Why not have players just make up their own canon? Background lore for a setting shouldn't be a muddled mess like that. Events should be open to interpretation sure, but the events themselves should be concrete.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/18 01:32:20
ThatMG wrote: The key problem with the topic and lore is there is so many "issues" with 40k.
Simply put many people treat 40k like other IPs and commonly view it with the mindset of "historical" Fact. This isn't how the universe is set.
There are multiple instances within 40k lore to suggest things like
Extreme Time Travel
Multi-Dimensions.
Parallel Universes.
That with the overlay of having it "40k can be whatever you want it to be." A cool hook to build of, not concrete lore.
That and many characters state "history is either extremely incorrect, only fractions of truth and prone to extreme exaggeration."
That doesn't include years of propaganda and/or misinformation spread by enemies of the IoM.
My personal Fan Fiction was my first space marine Legion Dragons of Vengeance "The 2nd Legion" who had a genetic flaw and had to flee the imperium and fly into the galactic void.
They returned to "modern" 40k by using advanced multi-dimension tech, due to the fact that the 2nd Legion also has a Traitor Legion of the same origin my Chaos Space Marine Faction Crimson Blades.
I'm sorry, but this reads like you desperately attempting to handwave away all existing lore fragments on the basis of 'we really don't know anything about anything!' because you want to have your own headcanon still be a possibility.
Say what you will about GW's writers, a lot of fanfiction like this is a LOT worse.
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jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
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Been catching up on non Heresy books , in Dark Imperium Robby G encounters a daemon entity that proclaims it is of " The Lost Second" ? Coincidence ? It could also be a time reference rather than a Legion one but I can't help think that given they are using the primarch's appearance to revisit the themes of the pre Heresy and Heresy era, that it's Legion.
TwilightSparkles wrote: Been catching up on non Heresy books , in Dark Imperium Robby G encounters a daemon entity that proclaims it is of " The Lost Second" ? Coincidence ? It could also be a time reference rather than a Legion one but I can't help think that given they are using the primarch's appearance to revisit the themes of the pre Heresy and Heresy era, that it's Legion.
Could just be all chaosy and screwing with his head abit. They love playing games with people. Send the lord of impirum on a wasted trip digging up a long forgotten past.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Hmmm I'm not convinced. The Primarchs are still very much human - and humanity itself is very flawed. Capable of greatness and in equal measure of monstrous acts of cruelty.
Guilliman himself often talks about his humanity and all the shortcomings it entails.
Hmmm I'm not convinced. The Primarchs are still very much human - and humanity itself is very flawed. Capable of greatness and in equal measure of monstrous acts of cruelty.
Guilliman himself often talks about his humanity and all the shortcomings it entails.
I don't think I'd class Primarchs as human. They live centuries, have incredible physical abilities and are semi psychic at a fundamental level of their biology.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
That tension between human and monster makes for a killer hook though. Roboute Guilliman is boring as the ideal Primarch and Space Marine, author of the book on Space Marining, but pretty interesting as a man out of time, a unique entity, and the last (inhuman) hope of Mankind.
Hmmm I'm not convinced. The Primarchs are still very much human - and humanity itself is very flawed. Capable of greatness and in equal measure of monstrous acts of cruelty.
Guilliman himself often talks about his humanity and all the shortcomings it entails.
I don't think I'd class Primarchs as human. They live centuries, have incredible physical abilities and are semi psychic at a fundamental level of their biology.
And yet many of them failed or fell for the most human reasons you can list: Jealousy, insecurity, anger, fear, etc
That's the whole point - they are blessed with gifts far beyond a normal human but at the core, beneath that intellect, charisma and strength they are very much still human. Warts and all.
Hmmm I'm not convinced. The Primarchs are still very much human - and humanity itself is very flawed. Capable of greatness and in equal measure of monstrous acts of cruelty.
Guilliman himself often talks about his humanity and all the shortcomings it entails.
I don't think I'd class Primarchs as human. They live centuries, have incredible physical abilities and are semi psychic at a fundamental level of their biology.
And yet many of them failed or fell for the most human reasons you can list: Jealousy, insecurity, anger, fear, etc
That's the whole point - they are blessed with gifts far beyond a normal human but at the core, beneath that intellect, charisma and strength they are very much still human. Warts and all.
But things like disease, death, getting stuck on problems and basic athletic skills are so far beneath a Primarch that they simply aren't human beings and a lot of human issues don't apply to them. They're definitely people and have the attached flaws that come with individuality but calling them human is selling them short.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Wasn't John Grammaticus terrified when he was able to see beyond the Emperor's glamour and see the actual man behind the illusion, though?
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Wasn't John Grammaticus terrified when he was able to see beyond the Emperor's glamour and see the actual man behind the illusion, though?
The Sisters of Silence presumably see the Emperor as he is also, and aren't noticeably bothered. There's literally nothing in any book I've read suggesting he appears as anything other than a human of some form and we know he began life in the earliest human civilisation sure it could be false memory but unlikely, Malcador is also unphased by him and the Eldar make no mention, plus the remains are presumably in the golden throne. And humanlike.
Metaphorical monster maybe but only because he acted to try save all humanity regardless of the cost. If Magnus hadn't been a moron then potentially the webway project gets completed and it's a very different future if the Heresy erupts with the most powerful psychic Legion as a loyalist and the Wolves unblood. I think it's more likely Grammaticus sees him in Legion in terms of his full history, a being who has existed for over 30000 years , killed billions and engineered the fate of humankind, with designs on the galaxy itself, prepared to sacrifice everything for that goal. That he's manipulated so much to this aim, through century after century.
Though TBF Grammaticys ignores the fact that the Emperor intervenes most at the point humankind is at the brink of extinction , bringing the Thunder Warriors and Custodes to retake Earth, unify it, bring Mars back into the fold then launch a crusade that does push back and destroy a lot of threats.
I'm projecting..my desire to make my fanfic plausible within existing canon? Errrr...mate, I don't write fanfic. So that might be a little difficult.
The 1st part is factual source material from various rulebooks over the years. The 2nd part is me showing that even if "writers intent" wasn't for the blank legions to be used for narrative head canon, they still ended up being used.
GW lore is normally set in a "cool story bro, Now go play some games" mindset not something like "The Marvel Cinematic universe/Star Wars/New 52 DC Franchise.
You are, of course, entirely entitled to your opinion. I'm just not entirely sure 'Bro, it's all like, imaginary, anything could happen anywhere in parallel universes/other dimensions and it's all still canon!' is quite the official stance you believe it is. If it were, there'd be absolutely no editorial control over setting and story (which there most emphatically is); along with secret key charts laying out chronology and events for BL writers to work from and stick to.
I think C.S. Goto was the straw that broke the camel's back regarding the more laissez-faire attitude GW had towards its authors.
1) not talking novel writers...it's a mixed bag on that. I am talking rulebook lore, what is as official as it can get.
I said you are projecting because
A) I said "lore isn't set in stone, like typical IPs, it's flexible to allow you the player to "forge the Narrative."."
B) You said "I'm making stuff up, to suit my on fanfic"
C) I proved you wrong, as my post separated GW lore from my own homebrew stuff...
Typical IPs have strict lore, to keep the narrative consistent.
40k Lore exists for the "wow" factor. Cool stories to get you into the hobby and start playing games.
Narrative wise they offter starting points for "Why X faction vs Y faction" what is your armies goal.
Other than to crush you opponent in a hail of dice. The Win State of the core game.
An provides settings/time periods etc.
I am not saying one or the other is best. It's just this is how 40k is written.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/09/18 23:09:25
1) not talking novel writers...it's a mixed bag on that. I am talking rulebook lore, what is as official as it can get.
I said you are projecting because
A) I said "lore isn't set in stone, like typical IPs, it's flexible to allow you the player to "forge the Narrative."."
B) You said "I'm making stuff up, to suit my on fanfic"
C) I proved you wrong, as my post separated GW lore from my own homebrew stuff...
Quite frankly, I'm not finding you to make a great deal of sense at all. I'm happy to accept that you weren't claiming absolutely anything at all was possible within the 40K lore (contrary to established canon); but if that's the case, I'm really not entirely certain exactly what it is you are trying to say.
You might want to try and reword a little here, because I'm not seeing/understanding this distinction you have between 40K canon/lore, and what you imagine to be the 'strict' lore enforced by unspecified 'typical IP's'. Is it that you're claiming because Games Workshop occasionally retcon stuff from time to time, 40K narrative is not 'consistent' in your eyes?
Wasn't John Grammaticus terrified when he was able to see beyond the Emperor's glamour and see the actual man behind the illusion, though?
The Sisters of Silence presumably see the Emperor as he is also, and aren't noticeably bothered. There's literally nothing in any book I've read suggesting he appears as anything other than a human of some form and we know he began life in the earliest human civilisation sure it could be false memory but unlikely, Malcador is also unphased by him and the Eldar make no mention, plus the remains are presumably in the golden throne. And humanlike.
Though TBF Grammaticys ignores the fact that the Emperor intervenes most at the point humankind is at the brink of extinction , bringing the Thunder Warriors and Custodes to retake Earth, unify it, bring Mars back into the fold then launch a crusade that does push back and destroy a lot of threats.
Sisters of Silence are also fanatics. Grammaticus could just be terrified because he sees the Emperor as he is - an incompetent, insane tyrant with godly powers and is rightly terrified of that.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
1) not talking novel writers...it's a mixed bag on that. I am talking rulebook lore, what is as official as it can get.
I said you are projecting because
A) I said "lore isn't set in stone, like typical IPs, it's flexible to allow you the player to "forge the Narrative."."
B) You said "I'm making stuff up, to suit my on fanfic"
C) I proved you wrong, as my post separated GW lore from my own homebrew stuff...
Quite frankly, I'm not finding you to make a great deal of sense at all. I'm happy to accept that you weren't claiming absolutely anything at all was possible within the 40K lore (contrary to established canon); but if that's the case, I'm really not entirely certain exactly what it is you are trying to say.
You might want to try and reword a little here, because I'm not seeing/understanding this distinction you have between 40K canon/lore, and what you imagine to be the 'strict' lore enforced by unspecified 'typical IP's'. Is it that you're claiming because Games Workshop occasionally retcon stuff from time to time, 40K narrative is not 'consistent' in your eyes?
"The Purpose" of the Lore needs to be taken into account in my view.
Normal IPs have a linear narrative that's purpose is for the author to tell story. The user is just along for the ride.
40k's Lore purpose is to provide "narrative hooks" to get people playing games and involved in the hobby.
Reading 40k lore is designed to be turned into FanFiction/Headcanon for "you the player", as you playing with plastic minis is the purpose.
@ Your 40k question.
I not talking about changes to lore over time. I think GW is consistent in it's creation of it's lore however actual lore needs to be treated with care in regards to what it's source is. With the above purpose taken into account.
GW normally have one thing taking centre stage in the lore, they normally leave previous lore alone. This does and wlll sometime create contradictions and inconsistencies. However again if you agree with me that the lore only exists in the first place a starting point for the players to start collecting and playing games. You understand why the wouldn't have to validate past lore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/19 13:37:57
"The Purpose" of the Lore needs to be taken into account in my view.
Into account when considering what exactly? What's the argument you're responding to?
Normal IPs have a linear narrative that's purpose is for the author to tell story. The user is just along for the ride.
That's a book. An IP is far more wide ranging, and usually encompasses several different mediums of expression. A film director will tell one story, a book author another, a video game producer a third, a model campaign writer a fourth. All of these are encompassed within an IP. The linear narrative contained within each of them is part of the IP, but does not dictate it.
40k's Lore purpose is to provide "narrative hooks" to get people playing games and involved in the hobby.
Reading 40k lore is designed to be turned into FanFiction/Headcanon for "you the player", as you playing with plastic minis is the purpose.
And the ultimate goal/true purpose of a film director is to put bums in seats in a cinema. I'm still not really quite seeing the relevancy/point you're trying to make.
@ Your 40k question.
I not talking about changes to lore over time. I think GW is consistent in it's creation of it's lore however actual lore needs to be treated with care in regards to what it's source is. With the above purpose taken into account.
So....you're trying to say that we need to keep in mind Games Workshop's desire to make money when discussing existing lore/canon? Again, I'm really struggling to see the wider point here.
GW normally have one thing taking centre stage in the lore, they normally leave previous lore alone. This does and wlll sometime create contradictions and inconsistencies. However again if you agree with me that the lore only exists in the first place a starting point for the players to start collecting and playing games. You understand why the wouldn't have to validate past lore.
The lore exists for a large multitude of reasons, of which getting new players into the hobby is but one.
I'm sorry, but I really don't think I get whatever point it is you're trying impart, let alone how it ties back to the missing Primarchs.
Going back to the start of the thread what about the emperor as an emperor.
Perhaps one of the primarchs had established their own empire and creed and refused to accept the emperor and even the marines made from their gene seed (hence the swelling of the UM ranks)
Or even better one of them was sent off to bring a system into compliance but rather than claiming to be a son and herald of the emperor he claimed to be the emperor himself and set to usurp the emperor.
One of them could have been heavily corrupted by chaos as a decoy.
The emperor may have felt that he had seen off the rebel son and the corrupted son and the rest had proved their loyalty during conquest to unite the galaxy dropping his guard ignoring the true corruption taking place.
Also surely angron is the manifestation of the emperors monster side? Or not his monster sides
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