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 insaniak wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
And there has never been any suggestion that the Rainbow Warriors were a first founding Chapter, so I'm not sure why you brought them up.

He might be thinking of the original 12 chapters to get official chapter icons in RT-era 40K publications and packaging (e.g. the RTB001 box, but also on the Space Crusade game board). Those were the Blood Angels, Blood Drinkers, Crimson Fists (Space Crusade replaced them with the Imperial Fists), Dark Angels, Flesh Eaters, Flesh Tearers, Whitescars, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Silver Skulls, Iron Hands, and... Rainbow Warriors.

To be fair, there was also a fan theory for some time that the Rainbow Warriors were one of the two missing Legions due to not being seen since Rogue Trader, combined with the old art piece of a Battle Sister 'purging' a Rainbow Warrior with fire.

That was never backed up by anything official, and then around 5th edition or so GW started showing Rainbow Warriors in amongst Chapter colour scheme collections again, which sort of blew that idea out of the water.

They have been mentioned since! They're a second founding ultramarines successor.

1) In....I think it's the 4th edition (?) marine codex, their chapter symbol is on the map of Astartes homeworlds associated with a world called "prism".

2) In Gav Thorpe's Deathwatch Audio Book Mission: Purge, they get name-checked by a space wolf. The Blackshield in Watch-Captain Artemis' Kill-team won't say what chapter he's from (because that's kind of the point of being a blackshield!) and the space wolf annoys him by continuously making stupid guesses. One guess:

".....Is it the Rainbow Warriors? If that was my chapter, I'd want to cover it up too..."

".....The Rainbow Warriors are proud and noble sons of Gulliman!"

".....Yes, but it's the name."

BrianDavion wrote:

No, that was just Word Bearer b-hurt Ultramarines were much more competently organized and recruited, trying to invent some conspiracy theory excusing WB shortcomings. We see UM organization in FW books and there are no 'foreign' elements.

And the author outright said his intent was just word bearers pushing unfounded conspiracy theories rather then giving the Ultramarines their due. People need to stop taking every quote in the novels as the unfiltered truth, sometimes people are misinformed, and sometimes they even lie to the point of making elaborate conspiracy theories to discredit those they don't like.

In fairness, I also said "The First Heretic is a little sketchy, because the narrative is being related by an unreliable Chaos source...". That part was left out of the subsequent quote that you're responding to. Being misquoted out of the greater context frequently makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Malcador has a throne with two skulls, one on each arm rest, the skulls are numbered , matching the two missing legions. This was the cover of the Sigilite audiobook , the xi Legion is to his left, possibly hinting they were purged because they strayed , the II on his right, suggesting they were killed or lost in action.

In another Heresy book an assassin says he knows it's not the first time they have been used to try kill a Primarch. That's prior to the first documented attempt in the Heresy series.

That legions were lost against the Rangdan doesn't necessarily mean these two, or either. Black Library has documented another chapter being destroyed but then secretly rebuilt so nine outside the chapter and the high lords know of it. It's hinted it's not the first time.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Malcador has a throne with two skulls, one on each arm rest, the skulls are numbered , matching the two missing legions. This was the cover of the Sigilite audiobook , the xi Legion is to his left, possibly hinting they were purged because they strayed , the II on his right, suggesting they were killed or lost in action.

In another Heresy book an assassin says he knows it's not the first time they have been used to try kill a Primarch. That's prior to the first documented attempt in the Heresy series.

That legions were lost against the Rangdan doesn't necessarily mean these two, or either. Black Library has documented another chapter being destroyed but then secretly rebuilt so nine outside the chapter and the high lords know of it. It's hinted it's not the first time.

You know the Legions weren't chapters, right? Numbers in the tens to hundreds of thousands and command over entire war fleets and imperial armies? Hypothesizing that some additional super secret Legions existed that absolutely no-one knew of that were then wiped out and secretly replaced by others in the same colours is....frankly ludicrous. You'd have to rewrite half the Heresy. It's one thing to cover up the elimination of a thousand solitary Imperial Fists on a battlefield far away, it's another to speculate on absolutely no evidence that Mystery Primarch #37 with the entire Legion of War Dogs was wiped out just before Angron got found, only to be replaced by new marines and the Big Red. Because it's one step from that to wondering if the Emperor is just Tzeentch in lots of makeup.

No, at least one of the established 'Missing Legions' was lost against the Rangdan. Possibly both. Why try and over-complicate things?

The issue I have with "they got wiped out of battle" of...why is it FORBIDDEN to speak of them?

It's not forbidden to speak of the 9 traitor legions (for those allowed to be in the know).

Is getting wiped out a sin greater than full scale violent rebellion? I don't think it is.

If it's an artifact of "before the Heresy getting wiped out was the greatest sin one could consider for a Legion" why not talk about them (fondly...As lost loyal brothers) after the Heresy? There are definitely survivors of the Heresy who know about the lost Legions.

jbuck wrote:
The issue I have with "they got wiped out of battle" of...why is it FORBIDDEN to speak of them?

It's not forbidden to speak of the 9 traitor legions (for those allowed to be in the know).

Is getting wiped out a sin greater than full scale violent rebellion? I don't think it is.

If it's an artifact of "before the Heresy getting wiped out was the greatest sin one could consider for a Legion" why not talk about them (fondly...As lost loyal brothers) after the Heresy? There are definitely survivors of the Heresy who know about the lost Legions.

Well, with the hints of the Space Wolves having eliminated one of them, perhaps one or both were somehow infected and/or driven insane and had to be put down? The sin here not in being eliminated, but in either being corrupted by xenos and/or degenerating into madness.

There are many potential reasons. Perhaps the dumb decision our Rangdan Primarch made involved ignoring direct orders. Perhaps the bio-taint was seen as shameful. Perhaps it was kept secret to avoid morale loss and preserve the illusion the Astartes were unbeatable. There are many possible reasons why the Emperor might not want them talked about.

Maybe they were tainted beyond redemption because of orders direct from the Emperor which their Primarchs faithfully followed

they had to go because of the taint, they were purged from History because they were a clear indication the Emperor was fallible which clearly contradicted the Imperial message and made the big guy look bad,

Once they were totally eliminated removing them from history covered up that mistake (and would be 'simple' to do in that they wouldn't be coming back all the time running black crusades, raiding and generally being obviously still around)

If the Emperor had 'won' the Horus Heresy i'd expect the traitor legions would have been removed from history too, but since he's stuck in the golden throne unable to issue explicit direct orders, and the traitor legions still exist and keep on attacking the imperium that's not possible

I've always thought that the first two legions to fall were isolated enough incidents that the IOM could plausibly remove them from history, especially with Malcador leading the charge on rewriting history.

The HH is something that can't be cleanly removed like that, given that it was a decades long war across the entire galaxy.

Deliverance Lost strongly suggests that Corax is the geneticist, with the Emperor trusting him with his notes and that he can use them to rebuild the RG. It didn't seem that this was something that other primarchs would have been capable of, by the way it was written, if I recall correctly.

Given the night lords and world eater where pushing the limits of the impiral very wide and loose remit and where not sanctioned with destruction. The iron warriors where given drges for wasting decent imperial lives. But they where not majorly sanctioned to any degree. You had to alot to mess up to be annulated.

Angron was basically mentally degrading and put in command of a legion when found.

Whatever they and there legions did had to be pretty extreme to be sanctioned for destruction and erasure.

 JamesY wrote:
Deliverance Lost strongly suggests that Corax is the geneticist, with the Emperor trusting him with his notes and that he can use them to rebuild the RG. It didn't seem that this was something that other primarchs would have been capable of, by the way it was written, if I recall correctly.

IIRC the Emperor gave him more than his notes. I seem to recall he gave him some kind of mental download. Possibly one of the other Primarchs could have done the same with the same treatment.

I think the information was given to Corax for two reasons. Firstly, he had just proved his loyalty beyond any doubt. Secondly, the Emperor had underestimated the number of Legions that would side with Horus and needed the loyalists to catch up to prevent the Heresy turning into a curb-stomp. Had Vulkan returned from Istvaan in the same situation, it is possible that he might have wound up playing the same role.

The key problem with the topic and lore is there is so many "issues" with 40k.

Simply put many people treat 40k like other IPs and commonly view it with the mindset of "historical" Fact. This isn't how the universe is set.

There are multiple instances within 40k lore to suggest things like
Extreme Time Travel
Multi-Dimensions.
Parallel Universes.

That with the overlay of having it "40k can be whatever you want it to be." A cool hook to build of, not concrete lore.

That and many characters state "history is either extremely incorrect, only fractions of truth and prone to extreme exaggeration."
That doesn't include years of propaganda and/or misinformation spread by enemies of the IoM.

My personal Fan Fiction was my first space marine Legion Dragons of Vengeance "The 2nd Legion" who had a genetic flaw and had to flee the imperium and fly into the galactic void.
They returned to "modern" 40k by using advanced multi-dimension tech, due to the fact that the 2nd Legion also has a Traitor Legion of the same origin my Chaos Space Marine Faction Crimson Blades.

ThatMG wrote:
The key problem with the topic and lore is there is so many "issues" with 40k.

Simply put many people treat 40k like other IPs and commonly view it with the mindset of "historical" Fact. This isn't how the universe is set.

There are multiple instances within 40k lore to suggest things like
Extreme Time Travel
Multi-Dimensions.
Parallel Universes.

That with the overlay of having it "40k can be whatever you want it to be." A cool hook to build of, not concrete lore.

That and many characters state "history is either extremely incorrect, only fractions of truth and prone to extreme exaggeration."
That doesn't include years of propaganda and/or misinformation spread by enemies of the IoM.

That is a lazy cop out to excuse a lack of continuity between authors and an unwillingness by GW to keep their "canon" clean.

Stories from a 1st person perspective should be considered factual. If you want do stuff with secondhand stories, propaganda, or parallel universes, it should be apparent to the reader that it should be taken with a grain of salt. The readers shouldn't have to pick and guess which stories are "real" and which stories are "questionable".

GW has gotten better at keeping things orginized of late, but thats something they've only moved towards recently. so there's always going to be the odd novel that doesn't work out, keeping a continuality 100% clean when you have multiple sources, multiple writers etc all working together is difficult. I don't think any franchise has pulled it off perfectly.

ThatMG wrote:
The key problem with the topic and lore is there is so many "issues" with 40k.

Simply put many people treat 40k like other IPs and commonly view it with the mindset of "historical" Fact. This isn't how the universe is set.

There are multiple instances within 40k lore to suggest things like
Extreme Time Travel
Multi-Dimensions.
Parallel Universes.

That with the overlay of having it "40k can be whatever you want it to be." A cool hook to build of, not concrete lore.

That and many characters state "history is either extremely incorrect, only fractions of truth and prone to extreme exaggeration."
That doesn't include years of propaganda and/or misinformation spread by enemies of the IoM.

My personal Fan Fiction was my first space marine Legion Dragons of Vengeance "The 2nd Legion" who had a genetic flaw and had to flee the imperium and fly into the galactic void.
They returned to "modern" 40k by using advanced multi-dimension tech, due to the fact that the 2nd Legion also has a Traitor Legion of the same origin my Chaos Space Marine Faction Crimson Blades.

I'm sorry, but this reads like you desperately attempting to handwave away all existing lore fragments on the basis of 'we really don't know anything about anything!' because you want to have your own headcanon still be a possibility.

And I get that. You wrote your fanfic about the second legion, who were (lest we forget) originally intended to be left as a blank slate for people like you to fill in as they liked! So it kind of sucks when GW come along and keep dropping hints left right and centre; until they've dropped so many that it starts adding up into a coherent whole and begins invalidating that blank slate.

Unfortunately, we have waaaay too many bits and pieces dropped by the Primarchs themselves now; combined with neutral lore taken from the Heresy book series. Even discounting all the questionable fragments (like the Word Bearers bitching to each other, the vague in-universe context, the minor discrepancy around Corax and the Emperors's meeting vis-a-vis Primarch findings, etc), there's just too many good sources to handwave it as in-universe bias (or...parallel universes?).

No, one step at a time, they keep locking down facets of the two missing legions. I don't know if they'll ever bother to fully fill them in; I suspect not. But then again, there are lots of periods in 40K history where we only get a snapshot or a summary. Doesn't mean there isn't still wiggle room to work with and head cannon, it just restricts your scope slightly.

jbuck wrote:
The issue I have with "they got wiped out of battle" of...why is it FORBIDDEN to speak of them?

It's not forbidden to speak of the 9 traitor legions (for those allowed to be in the know).

Is getting wiped out a sin greater than full scale violent rebellion? I don't think it is.

If it's an artifact of "before the Heresy getting wiped out was the greatest sin one could consider for a Legion" why not talk about them (fondly...As lost loyal brothers) after the Heresy? There are definitely survivors of the Heresy who know about the lost Legions.

In the Master of Mankind, the Emperor and Ra have a dialogue in which the Emperor says that there are things much worse than betrayal and Ra replies that such a thing is failure, with which the Emperor agrees.
So yes, if 2 and 11 were bad tactics and strategists and could not adequately fight the enemies in Xenocide, this explains why the Emperor forbade talking about them (it is worth noting that the decision to forbade talking about 2 and 11 was still with the active Emperor, and that if he had not sat on the Golden Throne at the end of the Heresy, he could have erased all references to traitors in the same way).

 Ketara wrote:

ThatMG wrote:
The key problem with the topic and lore is there is so many "issues" with 40k.

Simply put many people treat 40k like other IPs and commonly view it with the mindset of "historical" Fact. This isn't how the universe is set.

There are multiple instances within 40k lore to suggest things like
Extreme Time Travel
Multi-Dimensions.
Parallel Universes.

That with the overlay of having it "40k can be whatever you want it to be." A cool hook to build of, not concrete lore.

That and many characters state "history is either extremely incorrect, only fractions of truth and prone to extreme exaggeration."
That doesn't include years of propaganda and/or misinformation spread by enemies of the IoM.

My personal Fan Fiction was my first space marine Legion Dragons of Vengeance "The 2nd Legion" who had a genetic flaw and had to flee the imperium and fly into the galactic void.
They returned to "modern" 40k by using advanced multi-dimension tech, due to the fact that the 2nd Legion also has a Traitor Legion of the same origin my Chaos Space Marine Faction Crimson Blades.

I'm sorry, but this reads like you desperately attempting to handwave away all existing lore fragments on the basis of 'we really don't know anything about anything!' because you want to have your own headcanon still be a possibility.

And I get that. You wrote your fanfic about the second legion, who were (lest we forget) originally intended to be left as a blank slate for people like you to fill in as they liked! So it kind of sucks when GW come along and keep dropping hints left right and centre; until they've dropped so many that it starts adding up into a coherent whole and begins invalidating that blank slate.

Unfortunately, we have waaaay too many bits and pieces dropped by the Primarchs themselves now; combined with neutral lore taken from the Heresy book series. Even discounting all the questionable fragments (like the Word Bearers bitching to each other, the vague in-universe context, the minor discrepancy around Corax and the Emperors's meeting vis-a-vis Primarch findings, etc), there's just too many good sources to handwave it as in-universe bias (or...parallel universes?).

No, one step at a time, they keep locking down facets of the two missing legions. I don't know if they'll ever bother to fully fill them in; I suspect not. But then again, there are lots of periods in 40K history where we only get a snapshot or a summary. Doesn't mean there isn't still wiggle room to work with and head cannon, it just restricts your scope slightly.

Nah, that's a lot of projection you are doing. The 1st part is factual source material from various rulebooks over the years. The 2nd part is me showing that even if "writers intent" wasn't for the blank legions to be used for narrative head canon, they still ended up being used.

GW lore is normally set in a "cool story bro, Now go play some games" mindset not something like "The Marvel Cinematic universe/Star Wars/New 52 DC Franchise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

Spoiler:

ThatMG wrote:
The key problem with the topic and lore is there is so many "issues" with 40k.

Simply put many people treat 40k like other IPs and commonly view it with the mindset of "historical" Fact. This isn't how the universe is set.

There are multiple instances within 40k lore to suggest things like
Extreme Time Travel
Multi-Dimensions.
Parallel Universes.

That with the overlay of having it "40k can be whatever you want it to be." A cool hook to build of, not concrete lore.

That and many characters state "history is either extremely incorrect, only fractions of truth and prone to extreme exaggeration."
That doesn't include years of propaganda and/or misinformation spread by enemies of the IoM.

That is a lazy cop out to excuse a lack of continuity between authors and an unwillingness by GW to keep their "canon" clean.

Stories from a 1st person perspective should be considered factual. If you want do stuff with secondhand stories, propaganda, or parallel universes, it should be apparent to the reader that it should be taken with a grain of salt. The readers shouldn't have to pick and guess which stories are "real" and which stories are "questionable".

I don't see how you can just state some stories are creditable or not. One of the Horus Heresy books had an event where during the crusades a legion met a "strange anomaly" that is heavily suggested in the story to be a gate to a different "30k universe." It was ultimately destroyed by said legion.

darkoms wrote:

jbuck wrote:
The issue I have with "they got wiped out of battle" of...why is it FORBIDDEN to speak of them?

It's not forbidden to speak of the 9 traitor legions (for those allowed to be in the know).

Is getting wiped out a sin greater than full scale violent rebellion? I don't think it is.

If it's an artifact of "before the Heresy getting wiped out was the greatest sin one could consider for a Legion" why not talk about them (fondly...As lost loyal brothers) after the Heresy? There are definitely survivors of the Heresy who know about the lost Legions.

In the Master of Mankind, the Emperor and Ra have a dialogue in which the Emperor says that there are things much worse than betrayal and Ra replies that such a thing is failure, with which the Emperor agrees.
So yes, if 2 and 11 were bad tactics and strategists and could not adequately fight the enemies in Xenocide, this explains why the Emperor forbade talking about them (it is worth noting that the decision to forbade talking about 2 and 11 was still with the active Emperor, and that if he had not sat on the Golden Throne at the end of the Heresy, he could have erased all references to traitors in the same way).

But if being bad at your job was such an atrocious thing that two Legions were wiped from memory because of it that raises the question - Why was Lorgar and arguably Angron permitted to live?

pm713 wrote:

darkoms wrote:

jbuck wrote:
The issue I have with "they got wiped out of battle" of...why is it FORBIDDEN to speak of them?

It's not forbidden to speak of the 9 traitor legions (for those allowed to be in the know).

Is getting wiped out a sin greater than full scale violent rebellion? I don't think it is.

If it's an artifact of "before the Heresy getting wiped out was the greatest sin one could consider for a Legion" why not talk about them (fondly...As lost loyal brothers) after the Heresy? There are definitely survivors of the Heresy who know about the lost Legions.

In the Master of Mankind, the Emperor and Ra have a dialogue in which the Emperor says that there are things much worse than betrayal and Ra replies that such a thing is failure, with which the Emperor agrees.
So yes, if 2 and 11 were bad tactics and strategists and could not adequately fight the enemies in Xenocide, this explains why the Emperor forbade talking about them (it is worth noting that the decision to forbade talking about 2 and 11 was still with the active Emperor, and that if he had not sat on the Golden Throne at the end of the Heresy, he could have erased all references to traitors in the same way).

But if being bad at your job was such an atrocious thing that two Legions were wiped from memory because of it that raises the question - Why was Lorgar and arguably Angron permitted to live?

Or another answer.

Perhaps they did land on Xeno world's and where not driven to take the fight to the Xeno and such instead of protecting them or showing they where not fully behind the emparors vision of mankind ruling?

Ot they grew up on world's and mutated, or the planets caused them to adopt xeno traits. Many primarchs showed that once arrived they rapidly took upon traits of those world's.

 jhe90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

darkoms wrote:

jbuck wrote:
The issue I have with "they got wiped out of battle" of...why is it FORBIDDEN to speak of them?

It's not forbidden to speak of the 9 traitor legions (for those allowed to be in the know).

Is getting wiped out a sin greater than full scale violent rebellion? I don't think it is.

If it's an artifact of "before the Heresy getting wiped out was the greatest sin one could consider for a Legion" why not talk about them (fondly...As lost loyal brothers) after the Heresy? There are definitely survivors of the Heresy who know about the lost Legions.

In the Master of Mankind, the Emperor and Ra have a dialogue in which the Emperor says that there are things much worse than betrayal and Ra replies that such a thing is failure, with which the Emperor agrees.
So yes, if 2 and 11 were bad tactics and strategists and could not adequately fight the enemies in Xenocide, this explains why the Emperor forbade talking about them (it is worth noting that the decision to forbade talking about 2 and 11 was still with the active Emperor, and that if he had not sat on the Golden Throne at the end of the Heresy, he could have erased all references to traitors in the same way).

But if being bad at your job was such an atrocious thing that two Legions were wiped from memory because of it that raises the question - Why was Lorgar and arguably Angron permitted to live?

Or another answer.

Perhaps they did land on Xeno world's and where not driven to take the fight to the Xeno and such instead of protecting them or showing they where not fully behind the emparors vision of mankind ruling?

Ot they grew up on world's and mutated, or the planets caused them to adopt xeno traits. Many primarchs showed that once arrived they rapidly took upon traits of those world's.

Same question applies really. If they weren't behind the Emperor's vision and that's why they were removed why did Angron get a pass? If they were killed for mutations then why wasn't Sanguinius killed?

pm713 wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

darkoms wrote:

jbuck wrote:
The issue I have with "they got wiped out of battle" of...why is it FORBIDDEN to speak of them?

It's not forbidden to speak of the 9 traitor legions (for those allowed to be in the know).

Is getting wiped out a sin greater than full scale violent rebellion? I don't think it is.

If it's an artifact of "before the Heresy getting wiped out was the greatest sin one could consider for a Legion" why not talk about them (fondly...As lost loyal brothers) after the Heresy? There are definitely survivors of the Heresy who know about the lost Legions.

In the Master of Mankind, the Emperor and Ra have a dialogue in which the Emperor says that there are things much worse than betrayal and Ra replies that such a thing is failure, with which the Emperor agrees.
So yes, if 2 and 11 were bad tactics and strategists and could not adequately fight the enemies in Xenocide, this explains why the Emperor forbade talking about them (it is worth noting that the decision to forbade talking about 2 and 11 was still with the active Emperor, and that if he had not sat on the Golden Throne at the end of the Heresy, he could have erased all references to traitors in the same way).

But if being bad at your job was such an atrocious thing that two Legions were wiped from memory because of it that raises the question - Why was Lorgar and arguably Angron permitted to live?

Or another answer.

Perhaps they did land on Xeno world's and where not driven to take the fight to the Xeno and such instead of protecting them or showing they where not fully behind the emparors vision of mankind ruling?

Ot they grew up on world's and mutated, or the planets caused them to adopt xeno traits. Many primarchs showed that once arrived they rapidly took upon traits of those world's.

Same question applies really. If they weren't behind the Emperor's vision and that's why they were removed why did Angron get a pass? If they were killed for mutations then why wasn't Sanguinius killed?

Stable mutations though, and still mostly human form. No deliberating major effects impacting there ability to fight. Sangys mutation increased his combat efficiency and gave him a good image to exploit, the angelic host.

Yes angron was mentally unstable and degrading but he was stable enough to fight and function.

Even the worst primarchs where still mentally capable of command and physically suited for combat. Ok (at first angron was not mentally stable at all by the end)

ThatMG wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Spoiler:

ThatMG wrote:
The key problem with the topic and lore is there is so many "issues" with 40k.

Simply put many people treat 40k like other IPs and commonly view it with the mindset of "historical" Fact. This isn't how the universe is set.

There are multiple instances within 40k lore to suggest things like
Extreme Time Travel
Multi-Dimensions.
Parallel Universes.

That with the overlay of having it "40k can be whatever you want it to be." A cool hook to build of, not concrete lore.

That and many characters state "history is either extremely incorrect, only fractions of truth and prone to extreme exaggeration."
That doesn't include years of propaganda and/or misinformation spread by enemies of the IoM.

That is a lazy cop out to excuse a lack of continuity between authors and an unwillingness by GW to keep their "canon" clean.

Stories from a 1st person perspective should be considered factual. If you want do stuff with secondhand stories, propaganda, or parallel universes, it should be apparent to the reader that it should be taken with a grain of salt. The readers shouldn't have to pick and guess which stories are "real" and which stories are "questionable".

I don't see how you can just state some stories are creditable or not. One of the Horus Heresy books had an event where during the crusades a legion met a "strange anomaly" that is heavily suggested in the story to be a gate to a different "30k universe." It was ultimately destroyed by said legion.

You don't have to outright state that the story in question isn't canon. But you can do things like tell it from a historical point of view, or with an unreliable narrator to convey that the story may not be entirely true, or that it may be embellished in places.

Treating every story as suspect destroys the overarching narrative consistency of 40k, because anything can be argued as "inaccurate" or a "point of view". Having clear canon is like one of the main things behind good world building. It doesn't have to be perfect, but what we have now doesn't cut it. There is too much ambiguity.

Having wildly conflicting first person accounts of the same event is a huge no-no.

 jhe90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

darkoms wrote:

jbuck wrote:
The issue I have with "they got wiped out of battle" of...why is it FORBIDDEN to speak of them?

It's not forbidden to speak of the 9 traitor legions (for those allowed to be in the know).

Is getting wiped out a sin greater than full scale violent rebellion? I don't think it is.

If it's an artifact of "before the Heresy getting wiped out was the greatest sin one could consider for a Legion" why not talk about them (fondly...As lost loyal brothers) after the Heresy? There are definitely survivors of the Heresy who know about the lost Legions.

In the Master of Mankind, the Emperor and Ra have a dialogue in which the Emperor says that there are things much worse than betrayal and Ra replies that such a thing is failure, with which the Emperor agrees.
So yes, if 2 and 11 were bad tactics and strategists and could not adequately fight the enemies in Xenocide, this explains why the Emperor forbade talking about them (it is worth noting that the decision to forbade talking about 2 and 11 was still with the active Emperor, and that if he had not sat on the Golden Throne at the end of the Heresy, he could have erased all references to traitors in the same way).

But if being bad at your job was such an atrocious thing that two Legions were wiped from memory because of it that raises the question - Why was Lorgar and arguably Angron permitted to live?

Or another answer.

Perhaps they did land on Xeno world's and where not driven to take the fight to the Xeno and such instead of protecting them or showing they where not fully behind the emparors vision of mankind ruling?

Ot they grew up on world's and mutated, or the planets caused them to adopt xeno traits. Many primarchs showed that once arrived they rapidly took upon traits of those world's.

Same question applies really. If they weren't behind the Emperor's vision and that's why they were removed why did Angron get a pass? If they were killed for mutations then why wasn't Sanguinius killed?

Stable mutations though, and still mostly human form. No deliberating major effects impacting there ability to fight. Sangys mutation increased his combat efficiency and gave him a good image to exploit, the angelic host.

Yes angron was mentally unstable and degrading but he was stable enough to fight and function.

Even the worst primarchs where still mentally capable of command and physically suited for combat. Ok (at first angron was not mentally stable at all by the end)

Then I have to ask what happened to the lost Primarchs? It would be some intense mutation to kill them and if they were just utterly useless then why get rid of their Legions too?

I think it's just one of those things that can't be resolved well without radically changing the lore of some Primarchs.

As an aside I've always found it weird that Sanguinius had those wings and seemed to get absolutely 0 flak for it.

pm713 wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

darkoms wrote:

jbuck wrote:
The issue I have with "they got wiped out of battle" of...why is it FORBIDDEN to speak of them?

It's not forbidden to speak of the 9 traitor legions (for those allowed to be in the know).

Is getting wiped out a sin greater than full scale violent rebellion? I don't think it is.

If it's an artifact of "before the Heresy getting wiped out was the greatest sin one could consider for a Legion" why not talk about them (fondly...As lost loyal brothers) after the Heresy? There are definitely survivors of the Heresy who know about the lost Legions.

In the Master of Mankind, the Emperor and Ra have a dialogue in which the Emperor says that there are things much worse than betrayal and Ra replies that such a thing is failure, with which the Emperor agrees.
So yes, if 2 and 11 were bad tactics and strategists and could not adequately fight the enemies in Xenocide, this explains why the Emperor forbade talking about them (it is worth noting that the decision to forbade talking about 2 and 11 was still with the active Emperor, and that if he had not sat on the Golden Throne at the end of the Heresy, he could have erased all references to traitors in the same way).

But if being bad at your job was such an atrocious thing that two Legions were wiped from memory because of it that raises the question - Why was Lorgar and arguably Angron permitted to live?

Or another answer.

Perhaps they did land on Xeno world's and where not driven to take the fight to the Xeno and such instead of protecting them or showing they where not fully behind the emparors vision of mankind ruling?

Ot they grew up on world's and mutated, or the planets caused them to adopt xeno traits. Many primarchs showed that once arrived they rapidly took upon traits of those world's.

Same question applies really. If they weren't behind the Emperor's vision and that's why they were removed why did Angron get a pass? If they were killed for mutations then why wasn't Sanguinius killed?

Stable mutations though, and still mostly human form. No deliberating major effects impacting there ability to fight. Sangys mutation increased his combat efficiency and gave him a good image to exploit, the angelic host.

Yes angron was mentally unstable and degrading but he was stable enough to fight and function.

Even the worst primarchs where still mentally capable of command and physically suited for combat. Ok (at first angron was not mentally stable at all by the end)

Then I have to ask what happened to the lost Primarchs? It would be some intense mutation to kill them and if they were just utterly useless then why get rid of their Legions too?

I think it's just one of those things that can't be resolved well without radically changing the lore of some Primarchs.

As an aside I've always found it weird that Sanguinius had those wings and seemed to get absolutely 0 flak for it.

I think he gets away with it specifically because of the shape his mutation took, it aligned with a specific historical archetype and symbol that resonates within mankind as holy/pure literally angelic. If his mutation had given him horns and insect eyes there prob would have been issues.

ThatMG wrote:

Nah, that's a lot of projection you are doing.

I'm projecting..my desire to make my fanfic plausible within existing canon? Errrr...mate, I don't write fanfic. So that might be a little difficult.

The 1st part is factual source material from various rulebooks over the years. The 2nd part is me showing that even if "writers intent" wasn't for the blank legions to be used for narrative head canon, they still ended up being used.

GW lore is normally set in a "cool story bro, Now go play some games" mindset not something like "The Marvel Cinematic universe/Star Wars/New 52 DC Franchise.

You are, of course, entirely entitled to your opinion. I'm just not entirely sure 'Bro, it's all like, imaginary, anything could happen anywhere in parallel universes/other dimensions and it's all still canon!' is quite the official stance you believe it is. If it were, there'd be absolutely no editorial control over setting and story (which there most emphatically is); along with secret key charts laying out chronology and events for BL writers to work from and stick to.

I think C.S. Goto was the straw that broke the camel's back regarding the more laissez-faire attitude GW had towards its authors.

So what if Abbadon was one of the missing Primarchs? Like a twin to Horus like Omegon was to Alpharius?

Nurglitch wrote:
So what if Abbadon was one of the missing Primarchs? Like a twin to Horus like Omegon was to Alpharius?

He was tall for a marine but small for a primarch. Plus on a power level he was good. But not that good. Even a weak primarch was capable of cutting thought even marines like butter.

Only Primarch sized now ISH we juiced up majorly on chaos god's power. Really juiced up especially with a large deamon sword.

jareddm wrote:
Rick Priestly answered the original intent for the missing legions in an interview with Baron Bifford. He said that they were initially just added to include a sense of mystery. No make your own legion, no reference to lost Roman legions. The intent was to eventually fill in who the missing legions were and why they were removed, but Priestly left GW before it became a thing.

To quote exactly,

PRIESTLEY: I always imaged these Legions were deleted from the records as a result of things that happened during the Horus Heresy - and that the 'purging' was a recognition that whatever terrible things they had done had been - in the end - redeemed in some way. So - with the passing of all record of them was also expunged all record of their misdeeds - they are forgiven and forgotten. As opposed to those legions which rebelled and which remain 'traitor' legions.

Of course - I never imagined that the Horus Heresy would even emerge from a mythic past (it was ten thousand years ago after all!) so I fondly imaged we had many thousand of years in which we could create diverse and colourful histories. In fact, the Horus Heresy idea was picked up and became a strong theme for the 'epic' game and later for 40K in other ways - but it was also meant to be mysterious and 'beyond knowing' as I conceived it.

That's what Dorn thinks when Malkador lets him remember the missing primarchs: "What came to pass could overshadow everything ... The raw, hateful truth is clear to me. If they were here with us now... This war would already have been lost."