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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Most Aspect Warriors are distinctly underwhelming in 8th edition which is a shame as they were what hooked me into Eldar way back in WD127 (showing my age a bit here). Reapers are decent and Avengers are OK since they help fill the Troop tax but most of the others suffer.

Dragons are outperformed in every way by Wraithguard who cost only slightly more. Scorpions seem to lack a niche although at 10 ppm they are not so bad. Hawks bring mobile anti-infantry firepower but Eldar have lots of units that can do that and many are better. Spiders have lost their jump-shoot-jump which was the only thing that kept them alive in previous editions. Shining Spears can be OK but the models are aweful. If I had the time to convert some of the new Jetbike models with high-elf riders, they might look OK but my modelling time is a limited commodity these days. :(

I am hoping the new models will be accompanied by some shiny new rules.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Karhedron wrote:
Most Aspect Warriors are distinctly underwhelming in 8th edition which is a shame as they were what hooked me into Eldar way back in WD127 (showing my age a bit here). Reapers are decent and Avengers are OK since they help fill the Troop tax but most of the others suffer.

Dragons are outperformed in every way by Wraithguard who cost only slightly more. Scorpions seem to lack a niche although at 10 ppm they are not so bad. Hawks bring mobile anti-infantry firepower but Eldar have lots of units that can do that and many are better. Spiders have lost their jump-shoot-jump which was the only thing that kept them alive in previous editions. Shining Spears can be OK but the models are aweful. If I had the time to convert some of the new Jetbike models with high-elf riders, they might look OK but my modelling time is a limited commodity these days. :(

I am hoping the new models will be accompanied by some shiny new rules.


The problem sadly isnt the units, its 8th it self. 3+/4+ armor means nothing now, and when damage is also increase by 300% across the board, why take a 20-30pt model that does 1 shot and dies, when you can take a tank that will do the same thing with 2x toughness, 3x wounds, -1 to be damage, -1 to hit, maybe an invul, a FnP, etc.. There is a reason why CWE is flyer spam.

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I know this is kinda off topic, but I have been thinking of adding some daemons to my AoS Khorne Bloodbound army. While that's not 40K, daemons can be used in either game. That said, what exactly is a Bloodletter Bomb?

Thanks in advance

SG

40K - T'au Empire
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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




MSU close combat also doesn't really work in 8th, thanks to the interrupt stratagem. Harlequins, etc.. struggle with this as well. If you rely on multiple close combat units (+ buff characters) to bring down a reasonable threat (e.g. not just clearing guardsmen off objectives), the interrupt strat is gonna ruin your day.

You need something of Gallant / Aberrant / Mortarion / etc.. caliber that can get the job done in one go for the most part, to make the effort of delivery even worthwhile.

Everything else is likely using CC units as distraction / chaff clearing / etc.. , not as the main punch of the army.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/06 20:05:58


 
   
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Russia, Moscow

Harlequins at least hit like a truck and have fantastic special rules.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Shadenuat wrote:
Harlequins at least hit like a truck and have fantastic special rules.



Wyches hit harder and are more survivable for equal points. Harlequins are actually over costed by 3pts.

Wyches are 6+++, 4++ in melee 6++ vs shooting, 10 wounds to troupes 5 wounds, hits on 2+ turn turn 3 but can be turn 2, 6 of the 10 models are for sure weaker in damage and they do help with damage output the other 4 are more important os you have a couple wounds to sac for OW unlike harlequins. You may think 4-5 Str 5 attacks is better, but 10 Wyches are Str 4 with 4-5 attacks as well, but they can also be Str 6 with 3 attack each, you can actually have a Str 4 4 attack unit base and a Str 5 3 attack unit base. When you have 10 models thats either 40 str 4, or 30 str 5 where quins are either 20 or 25 str 5.


Even Wyches being a 6++/6+++ vs shooting, its 10 wounds vs 5 4++ wounds, if you do roll 100% average, thats 10 wounds to kill off the harlequin unit, the same 10 wounds will only kill 6.8 wyches (so 7), meaning wyches live longer, and even more so in melee.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/06 20:21:17


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Wyches are pretty garbage yo. Harlequins would also be garbage if not for their reroll wounds auras coming out of troop masters.

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 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:
Harlequins at least hit like a truck and have fantastic special rules.



Wyches hit harder and are more survivable for equal points. Harlequins are actually over costed by 3pts.

Wyches are 6+++, 4++ in melee 6++ vs shooting, 10 wounds to troupes 5 wounds, hits on 2+ turn turn 3 but can be turn 2, 6 of the 10 models are for sure weaker in damage and they do help with damage output the other 4 are more important os you have a couple wounds to sac for OW unlike harlequins. You may think 4-5 Str 5 attacks is better, but 10 Wyches are Str 4 with 4-5 attacks as well, but they can also be Str 6 with 3 attack each, you can actually have a Str 4 4 attack unit base and a Str 5 3 attack unit base. When you have 10 models thats either 40 str 4, or 30 str 5 where quins are either 20 or 25 str 5.


Even Wyches being a 6++/6+++ vs shooting, its 10 wounds vs 5 4++ wounds, if you do roll 100% average, thats 10 wounds to kill off the harlequin unit, the same 10 wounds will only kill 6.8 wyches (so 7), meaning wyches live longer, and even more so in melee.

Flip Belt. If you're gonna be melee infantry, Flip Belt is just amazing. It's a gamechanger.

Doesn't make Harlies OP, but it's certainly a large part of their power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
MSU close combat also doesn't really work in 8th, thanks to the interrupt stratagem. Harlequins, etc.. struggle with this as well. If you rely on multiple close combat units (+ buff characters) to bring down a reasonable threat (e.g. not just clearing guardsmen off objectives), the interrupt strat is gonna ruin your day.

You need something of Gallant / Aberrant / Mortarion / etc.. caliber that can get the job done in one go for the most part, to make the effort of delivery even worthwhile.

Everything else is likely using CC units as distraction / chaff clearing / etc.. , not as the main punch of the army.


MSU might work if you had many small interchangeable units. Aspects generally fare poorly when spammed. While deathstars work for CWE, that's mostly about buffs that target one unit. MSU CC units are at a disadvantage in 8th (harder to get them all in combat, easier for the enemy to focus fire, etc) beyond just the interrupt strat.

But even if that weren't the case, CWE doesn't have the options to do MSU melee. Scorpions, Banshees, and Storm Guardians work even worse spammed than when included in moderation. And mixing them with Wraithblades is basically asking for all the weaknesses of both and strengths of neither (the speed of the faster units won't matter, if half the force can't keep up. And the durability of the slower half won't matter, because the faster half is going to attract all the firepower).

CWE can make good use of CC units in a combined-arms force - a little cleanup here, a little skirmish here. But MSU CC is one area they're terrible at.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/06 20:53:04


 
   
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UK

 ServiceGames wrote:
I know this is kinda off topic, but I have been thinking of adding some daemons to my AoS Khorne Bloodbound army. While that's not 40K, daemons can be used in either game. That said, what exactly is a Bloodletter Bomb?

You take a large unit of Blood Letters (20+) and put them in the Warp. You give them a few upgrades (I think there is a banner or something). They come in from Reserves and get a 3D6"+1 charge and get a bucket-load of attacks with exploding 6s. I forget all the details but I have been on the receiving end of one enough times to know that it is effective.

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I believe they also have access to a "fight again" stratagem. Basically they're fething obnoxious.

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




The problem with the current Banshee is twinfold. First, they aren't what they have been historically in previous editions nor do they behave like one would expect from their fluff. Second, they are in the wrong niche to do waht they are actually good at right now.

Banshee right now are a denial, fast moving unit. They can make very long charges and move accross the board very quickly, especially for infantry on foot. They are also capable of denying the enemy overwatch when they charge them. The problem is thtat they have no stamina, no hit and run mechanic and no killing power. Drop their power swords (or reduce further it's AP) and their price accordingly and move them to the troop choice to grant them objective secure and suddenly they become interesting as some sort of Eldar version of the Hormagaunt. They might not become genial or very competitive, but you could at least build a list around that form of Banshee 2.0.

The other option is to try to make what they were in 2nd/3rd edition, their time of glory, possible in 8th. Back then, Banshee were one of the few units with power swords and they would strike first. The idea then is to give them very few attacks, but make those attacks terribly deadly. Make the Banshee the elite killer while Scorpions handle the hordes and Wraithblade play the flex role. Give them an AP boost and maybe a small strength boost thanks to brand new and trademarked Banshee's Swords. Make the Banshee Mask allow the Banshee to hit automatically and prevent the strike back, make them a little slower and then they are right now and once again you got a use for them.

Right now, they are sort of like trying to do both. While you remaining at low cost. This makes them bad at both. Low cost units cannot have multiple roles. They can only be good at one thing and one thing only. If they were cheap and good at two thing, they would be OP. GW seems to struggle with old units and niche roles. They were rather lazy in the past and just copied their stats and abilities without considering the ecosystem changes in their game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/06 23:48:34


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




epronovost wrote:
The problem with the current Banshee is twinfold. First, they aren't what they have been historically in previous editions nor do they behave like one would expect from their fluff. Second, they are in the wrong niche to do waht they are actually good at right now.

Banshee right now are a denial, fast moving unit. They can make very long charges and move accross the board very quickly, especially for infantry on foot. They are also capable of denying the enemy overwatch when they charge them. The problem is thtat they have no stamina, no hit and run mechanic and no killing power. Drop their power swords (or reduce further it's AP) and their price accordingly and move them to the troop choice to grant them objective secure and suddenly they become interesting as some sort of Eldar version of the Hormagaunt. They might not become genial or very competitive, but you could at least build a list around that form of Banshee 2.0.

The other option is to try to make what they were in 2nd/3rd edition, their time of glory, possible in 8th. Back then, Banshee were one of the few units with power swords and they would strike first. The idea then is to give them very few attacks, but make those attacks terribly deadly. Make the Banshee the elite killer while Scorpions handle the hordes and Wraithblade play the flex role. Give them an AP boost and maybe a small strength boost thanks to brand new and trademarked Banshee's Swords. Make the Banshee Mask allow the Banshee to hit automatically and prevent the strike back, make them a little slower and then they are right now and once again you got a use for them.

Right now, they are sort of like trying to do both. While you remaining at low cost. This makes them bad at both. Low cost units cannot have multiple roles. They can only be good at one thing and one thing only. If they were cheap and good at two thing, they would be OP. GW seems to struggle with old units and niche roles. They were rather lazy in the past and just copied their stats and abilities without considering the ecosystem changes in their game.


In 2nd edition, the Banshee mask did both the prevention of overwatch against them, and made the enemy roll 0 attack dice. That and their old S5 -3 ASM power swords in 2nd edition really made the Banshees the shock infantry chargers of 2nd edition. That was how they differed from the Scorpions, whose mandiblasters made them better at handling hordes of lightly armored enemies. Mind you, in 2nd edition, I think Banshees outclassed Scorpions so arguably back then there was a different problem.

The problem is now they lack the killing power. In 3rd edition, they were differentiated from Scorpions by the S difference in their weapons and by the all or nothing AP system which made the power swords valuable. Now in 8th edition, GW may have gone back from the AP system but they never fixed the Strength change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/07 01:09:08


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




epronovost wrote:
The problem with the current Banshee is twinfold. First, they aren't what they have been historically in previous editions nor do they behave like one would expect from their fluff. Second, they are in the wrong niche to do waht they are actually good at right now.

Banshee right now are a denial, fast moving unit. They can make very long charges and move accross the board very quickly, especially for infantry on foot. They are also capable of denying the enemy overwatch when they charge them. The problem is thtat they have no stamina, no hit and run mechanic and no killing power. Drop their power swords (or reduce further it's AP) and their price accordingly and move them to the troop choice to grant them objective secure and suddenly they become interesting as some sort of Eldar version of the Hormagaunt. They might not become genial or very competitive, but you could at least build a list around that form of Banshee 2.0.

The other option is to try to make what they were in 2nd/3rd edition, their time of glory, possible in 8th. Back then, Banshee were one of the few units with power swords and they would strike first. The idea then is to give them very few attacks, but make those attacks terribly deadly. Make the Banshee the elite killer while Scorpions handle the hordes and Wraithblade play the flex role. Give them an AP boost and maybe a small strength boost thanks to brand new and trademarked Banshee's Swords. Make the Banshee Mask allow the Banshee to hit automatically and prevent the strike back, make them a little slower and then they are right now and once again you got a use for them.

Right now, they are sort of like trying to do both. While you remaining at low cost. This makes them bad at both. Low cost units cannot have multiple roles. They can only be good at one thing and one thing only. If they were cheap and good at two thing, they would be OP. GW seems to struggle with old units and niche roles. They were rather lazy in the past and just copied their stats and abilities without considering the ecosystem changes in their game.


Well put. Agreed on all points. Maybe they could bring back exarch powers and let you build banshees for one of several roles depending on the "Shrine Teachings" you chose. So you might be able to build fast disruption banshees, low-quantity/high-quality attack banshees, and maybe even have a third option that just lets you field them as troops; my Iybraesil list would love some troop banshees.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wyldhunt wrote:
Maybe they could bring back exarch powers and let you build banshees for one of several roles depending on the "Shrine Teachings" you chose. So you might be able to build fast disruption banshees, low-quantity/high-quality attack banshees, and maybe even have a third option that just lets you field them as troops; my Iybraesil list would love some troop banshees.



I'm personnaly not a big fan of multiple roles for Aspect Warriors (or units in general) as I think it breaks the fluff of the Aspect Warriors as being super-specialised elite warriors and. from a game perspective, makes internal balance between the various units of a single codex more difficult. This is especially true with old factions like Craftworld Eldars who have a lot of different units. Right now, Banshees are competing with four other dedicated close combat infantry (or bike mounted) unit in their codex alone: Storm Guardians, Striking Scorpions, Shinning Spears and Wraithblades. The idea is to have each of these units have their own niche and specialty as to make list building about balancing between them or choosing a special role for close combat infantry in your personnal list.

In my opinion, Exarch should be powerful squad leaders that serve to boost the squad in their particular domain or to mitigate a weakness a little bit. For example, I could see a Banshee Exarch increase the speed and punch or the speed and defense ability of a disruptive Banshee style squads. On the opposite should Banshee be an "elite killer" units, the Exarch would increase punch and speed or punch and defense depending on the power chosen. The Exarch doesn't change the role of the squad it modifies slightly how the squad performs the role in question. At least that's my take on it. What do you think?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/08 06:14:54


 
   
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epronovost wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Maybe they could bring back exarch powers and let you build banshees for one of several roles depending on the "Shrine Teachings" you chose. So you might be able to build fast disruption banshees, low-quantity/high-quality attack banshees, and maybe even have a third option that just lets you field them as troops; my Iybraesil list would love some troop banshees.



I'm personnaly not a big fan of multiple roles for Aspect Warriors (or units in general) as I think it breaks the fluff of the Aspect Warriors as being super-specialised elite warriors and. from a game perspective, makes internal balance between the various units of a single codex more difficult. This is especially true with old factions like Craftworld Eldars who have a lot of different units. Right now, Banshees are competing with four other dedicated close combat infantry (or bike mounted) unit in their codex alone: Storm Guardians, Striking Scorpions, Shinning Spears and Wraithblades. The idea is to have each of these units have their own niche and specialty as to make list building about balancing between them or choosing a special role for close combat infantry in your personnal list.

In my opinion, Exarch should be powerful squad leaders that serve to boost the squad in their particular domain or to mitigate a weakness a little bit. For example, I could see a Banshee Exarch increase the speed and punch or the speed and defense ability of a disruptive Banshee style squads. On the opposite should Banshee be an "elite killer" units, the Exarch would increase punch and speed or punch and defense depending on the power chosen. The Exarch doesn't change the role of the squad is modifies slightly how the squad performs the role in question. At least that's my take on it. What do you think.


I think that's a fantastic way of looking at the issue.
   
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They have their purpose and several rules to give them the ability to serve that purpose.

The question is how many points is that worth compared to sheer effectiveness in combat?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They have their purpose and several rules to give them the ability to serve that purpose.

The question is how many points is that worth compared to sheer effectiveness in combat?


Once upon a time, Banshees were fantastic at killing elite units.


Their Power Swords swung at S5 and denied ALL armour saves. They were immune to Overwatch, the enemy was not allowed to fight back in the turn that the Banshees charged, and they didn't care for terrain slowing them down so fought at full initiative 5 despite not having grenades.


Nowadays they can charge quite a long ways without getting hit by Overwatch, but a Banshee can't even kill a Guardsman in a single round of combat (2 attacks at WS3+, S3, AP-3, D1 inflict 2/3rds of a wound on GEQ) and they fare even worse against the elite units they were once meant to mercilessly wreck (5 Banshees will inflict 1.85 unsaved wounds on MEQ on the charge). And get wrecked in turn by these Marines (the remaining 3-ish Tactical Marines will knock 2 wounds off of Banshees before the next Fight phase (1.33 melee + 0.66 Pistols)). That's melee Specialist banshees at 13ppm losing in melee to shooting-focused generalist marines at 13ppm.


I propose that all the melee-focussed Aspect Warriors have their attacks characteristics raised by 1 (so 3 attacks base, 4 for the Exarch) and that Banshees specifically get +1 Strength on the charge. This ties into their current theme of being able to cross the board very quickly on foot, and then stab things. But would actually let them do something when they get around to the stabbing.


Earlier Epronovost mentioned the multitude of INFANTRY units vying to be good at melee in the Craftworlds codex.


So my proposal is that Storm Guardians remain cheap troops choices, but get pushed up to 2 attacks base (3 with the chainsword) and stay at 8ppm. Cheap chaff that has some killing potential and can hide some fusion guns / flamers in the unit.


Scorpions stay at their current 10 points and get the aforementioned +1 Attack, making them decent for tarpit-blending with Mandiblasters + 3 S4 attacks a head. Deepstrike and the Exarch build options make up the rest.
   
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If Banshees got +1 Strength and Attacks on the charge (just like bloodletters) it would solve 95% of their problems for me.

Combined with their speed and overwatch negation, they would be an actual threat.
   
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Xenomancers wrote:Wyches are pretty garbage yo. Harlequins would also be garbage if not for their reroll wounds auras coming out of troop masters.


The math is with the re-roll to wounds, wyches still hit harder, thats the point. If you actually add in all the buffs both units can get (which is a lot) wyches are well more than double the damage, 51 Str 4 attacks hitting on 2+, with rr1's to hit, 15 attacks re-roll wounds from 10 models, the best Quins can do is from equal points, 30 attacks with re-roll wounds at Str 5.

Bharring wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Shadenuat wrote:
Harlequins at least hit like a truck and have fantastic special rules.



Wyches hit harder and are more survivable for equal points. Harlequins are actually over costed by 3pts.

Wyches are 6+++, 4++ in melee 6++ vs shooting, 10 wounds to troupes 5 wounds, hits on 2+ turn turn 3 but can be turn 2, 6 of the 10 models are for sure weaker in damage and they do help with damage output the other 4 are more important os you have a couple wounds to sac for OW unlike harlequins. You may think 4-5 Str 5 attacks is better, but 10 Wyches are Str 4 with 4-5 attacks as well, but they can also be Str 6 with 3 attack each, you can actually have a Str 4 4 attack unit base and a Str 5 3 attack unit base. When you have 10 models thats either 40 str 4, or 30 str 5 where quins are either 20 or 25 str 5.


Even Wyches being a 6++/6+++ vs shooting, its 10 wounds vs 5 4++ wounds, if you do roll 100% average, thats 10 wounds to kill off the harlequin unit, the same 10 wounds will only kill 6.8 wyches (so 7), meaning wyches live longer, and even more so in melee.

Flip Belt. If you're gonna be melee infantry, Flip Belt is just amazing. It's a gamechanger.

Doesn't make Harlies OP, but it's certainly a large part of their power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yes Flip belts are good, but not 4pts more good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/08 11:57:02


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Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm not convinced wyches are amazing (partly due to the stupid detachment rules DE have, if you could just slot them into a Kabal detachment it would be easier) - but if you want something comparable to a bloodletterer bomb they are it. Cheap enough to chuck in, troops so obsec, 4++/6+++ is also reasonably survivable against anything without loads of attacks. Again, I'm not convinced its "good", which is why you don't usually see it, but it can be effective, especially against certain armies.

Imo Banshees have been bad for a very long time. If they were good in 2nd, its because most people didn't min/max their lists, close combat was completely different to now, and, imo at least, tables were more MEQ dominated than today.

In simple terms, they don't do enough damage. This is a critical issue for any assault unit given its all or nothing nature. Failed charges happen, no mater the movement buffs, no matter the ignoring of overwatch. They have too few attacks to be efficient versus cheap infantry. They have too low strength (and attacks and damage) to be good against vehicles or monsters. Their bizarre strength of 3 makes them mediocre even against the preferred target of MEQ. They bring Fire Warrior defensive stats for nearly twice the points. Just bring a wave serpent - well Serpents are not free (although there is a good chance you were going to take some).

As has been said this is compounded by the squad size being so small that one round of shooting (or any significant counter-charge) likely renders the unit dead or an irrelevance - you quickly go from killing a little, to maybe killing a couple of marines. Oh no.

This usually brings up the idea that really they are there to prevent overwatch, but then you are in a weird scenario of... prevent overwatch "for what"? You can build an assault focused Eldar force... its just not very good. So you are back to "just tie things up, do no damage but force them to fallback and therefore not shoot". And yeah, that time you tag 3 Tank Commanders or something? Its great (its also what Wave Serpents are for...) But most of the things you want to tag are going to be deeply screened by good players and flying (or rules to the same effect) is so common. I don't think its worth it. Every assault unit theoretically does this tagging - its just good ones can also inflict efficient amounts of damage at the same time.

Take Banshee, compare to Genestealer.
   
 
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