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It is not an interpretation. The rules state Da Jump counts as moving for all rules purposes. The reinforcement rules state you cannot move further in that turn. Reinforcement rules are RULES. So as per Da Jumps' 'counts as moving for any RULES purposes' the unit cannot move as per the reinforcement rule. That is very clear.
Now if Da Jump is not moving as you mantain prove it, dont just keep repeating it. Provide some rules citiation to back up your claim just like myself, and others have.
that is not correct. The rules state that unit counts as having moved after the jump. Counting as moving is not the same as moving itself. From your viewpoint, Da Jump would not be able to be used on a unit that had disembarked from a Trukk, or even a unit that had moved already because they have already moved.
It is not an interpretation. The rules state Da Jump counts as moving for all rules purposes. The reinforcement rules state you cannot move further in that turn. Reinforcement rules are RULES. So as per Da Jumps' 'counts as moving for any RULES purposes' the unit cannot move as per the reinforcement rule. That is very clear.
Now if Da Jump is not moving as you mantain prove it, dont just keep repeating it. Provide some rules citiation to back up your claim just like myself, and others have.
that is not correct. The rules state that unit counts as having moved after the jump. Counting as moving is not the same as moving itself. From your viewpoint, Da Jump would not be able to be used on a unit that had disembarked from a Trukk, or even a unit that had moved already because they have already moved.
No that is not my view point, there are rules that let you move twice.
Reinforcements cannot move further in there turn, the rule specfically says you cannot. If you use Da Jump they count as moving for any rules purposes, thus breaking the reinfoecements rule.
It is not an interpretation. The rules state Da Jump counts as moving for all rules purposes. The reinforcement rules state you cannot move further in that turn. Reinforcement rules are RULES. So as per Da Jumps' 'counts as moving for any RULES purposes' the unit cannot move as per the reinforcement rule. That is very clear.
Now if Da Jump is not moving as you mantain prove it, dont just keep repeating it. Provide some rules citiation to back up your claim just like myself, and others have.
that is not correct. The rules state that unit counts as having moved after the jump. Counting as moving is not the same as moving itself. From your viewpoint, Da Jump would not be able to be used on a unit that had disembarked from a Trukk, or even a unit that had moved already because they have already moved.
No that is not my view point, there are rules that let you move twice.
Reinforcements cannot move further in there turn, the rule specfically says you cannot. If you use Da Jump they count as moving for any rules purposes, thus breaking the reinfoecements rule.
How many times does it need to be said, "count as moving" is not moving. The very fact they state you count as moving proves you didn't move.
Dadavester wrote: It is not an interpretation. The rules state Da Jump counts as moving for all rules purposes.
It does not say that, not even close to saying that.
It says that units that arrive as reinforcements (i.e. are "set-up" mid turn) count as moving for all rules purposes (after they have been set up).
BCB, read Da Jump it very much says that.
Da jump states "This unit counts as having moved for the purposes of any rules"
So if Da Jump COUNTS AS moving for ANY rules, it cannot be affected by Da Jump as as that directly breaks the rules for reinforcements which state the unit cannot move any further.
Now you will keep repeating counts as is not the same as moving. But it is in black and white. Da Jump counts as moving for ANY rules (this includes the reinforcement rule) and as such directly conflicts with it.
If you disagree provide a citation for counts as not being the same as moving with regards to the rules (not the physical act of picking the model up)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/02 21:31:47
Dadavester wrote: It is not an interpretation. The rules state Da Jump counts as moving for all rules purposes.
It does not say that, not even close to saying that.
It says that units that arrive as reinforcements (i.e. are "set-up" mid turn) count as moving for all rules purposes (after they have been set up).
Da jump states "This unit counts as having moved for the purposes of any rules"
So if Da Jump COUNTS AS moving for ANY rules, it cannot be affected by Da Jump as as that directly breaks the rules for reinforcements which state the unit cannot move any further.
Now you will keep repeating counts as is not the same as moving. But it is in black and white. Da Jump counts as moving for ANY rules (this includes the reinforcement rule) and as such directly conflicts with it.
If you disagree provide a citation for counts as not being the same as moving with regards to the rules (not the physical act of picking the model up)
Not possible to, so watch those goalposts move again...
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Dadavester wrote: It is not an interpretation. The rules state Da Jump counts as moving for all rules purposes.
It does not say that, not even close to saying that.
It says that units that arrive as reinforcements (i.e. are "set-up" mid turn) count as moving for all rules purposes (after they have been set up).
Da jump states "This unit counts as having moved for the purposes of any rules"
So if Da Jump COUNTS AS moving for ANY rules, it cannot be affected by Da Jump as as that directly breaks the rules for reinforcements which state the unit cannot move any further.
Now you will keep repeating counts as is not the same as moving. But it is in black and white. Da Jump counts as moving for ANY rules (this includes the reinforcement rule) and as such directly conflicts with it.
If you disagree provide a citation for counts as not being the same as moving with regards to the rules (not the physical act of picking the model up)
Not possible to, so watch those goalposts move again...
No-one needs to move any goalposts, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped the snarky comments.
It's pretty simple and BCB has said it above - they COUNT AS moving (so aren't ACTUALLY MOVING). Since the reinforcement rules state, very specifically, that units cannot MOVE again, the rule is not broken.
Da jump states "This unit counts as having moved for the purposes of any rules"
So if Da Jump COUNTS AS moving for ANY rules
Once again, that's not how it works. The unit counting as having moved after using Da Jump is not the same as Da Jump being a move itself. If it were, they would say that Da Jump is a move where you remove them from the board, etc. etc. They don't say that. What you are quoting is not proof that Da Jump is a move.
They count as moving for all rules purposes. That means *spoilers* they don’t move in the usual sense (I agree) but you apply all rules that would apply if they had done so. There is literally no practical difference. There is no rules difference.
What aren’t you getting here, AEE?
So, if the unit would count as moving, and you can’t move after coming in from reinforcements, then you can’t move/count as moving/any other way you wanna phrase it lest a nitpick occurs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/02 21:45:04
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
The part where the unit counts as having moved after the fact is the same as saying that the power is moving during the fact when you use it. Nobody's provided a credible rules quotation for it yet. What aren't you getting here?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/02 21:52:56
The physical act of moving a unit is meaningless in this instance. All the matters is that for rules purposes the unit has moved.
A unit can advance yet not phyiscally move. It is still in the exact same place, yet for rules purposes it has moved.
A unit that has arrived by reinforcements cannot be selected for an action that would cause it to move.
This is explained in the various rules citiations provided.
Counts as moving means exactly the same as moved in terms of rules, all counts as does is allow rules writers to add a condition to a stationary unit. Weather the unit is moving/being removed and resetup or anything else is irrelevant, according to the rules it counts as moving and as such contridicts the reinforcement rule.
JohnnyHell wrote: They count as moving for all rules purposes. That means *spoilers* they don’t move in the usual sense (I agree) but you apply all rules that would apply if they had done so. There is literally no practical difference. There is no rules difference.
What aren’t you getting here, AEE?
So, if the unit would count as moving, and you can’t move after coming in from reinforcements, then you can’t move/count as moving/any other way you wanna phrase it lest a nitpick occurs.
Because, to me, GW would have said that Da Jump is exactly a Move action (albeit an unusual one because you're free to go anywhere on the table >9" from the enemy) if that were the case. I read the statement that it "counts as" as proof that it isn't a move. In which case it doesn't break the reinforcement rule because that rule states very clearly that a unit may not move again for any reason. Well this isn't a move, as proven?
As I said earlier, I don't think there's a clear cut answer here and now we're all just going around in circles. We don't need someone jumping on the thread and stating something we've all heard before though, it just pushes us through another cycle of repeating our various beliefs of how the rules are parsed, ad infinitum. We'll have to wait for clarification from GW.
The part where the unit counts as having moved after the fact is the same as saying that the power is moving during the fact when you use it. Nobody's provided a credible rules quotation for it yet. What aren't you getting here?
You can't provide a rules quotation for a rule that doesn't exist.
"Counts as moving" means that other rules which are effected by whether or not a unit has moved will be effected. It does not mean that the unit is actually moving. I can't give you a rules citation for "a rule which isn't movement isn't movement", because to my knowledge nobody thought it would be important to print something that redundant.
Found the re-setup faq gonna add it here but dont think it offers any gems on they count as moving so have they moved debate, might do thou?
Spoiler:
(RE)SETTING UP MODELS
There are several abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers that let players remove a unit from the battlefield and then
set it back up in a different location, but these rules are causing some confusion. The confusion is partly because it is
not clear whether or not any effects that applied to the unit before it is removed from the battlefield continue to apply
when it is set back up, and also because the wording of this rule is sometimes written as these units being set up ‘as if
they were reinforcements’, even though they are technically on the battlefield already.
The intent of the ‘as if they were reinforcements’ wording was to try and make it clear that the units had counted as
moving for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons, and that they can’t move further again this turn (other
than to charge, pile in or consolidate) – after all, these units have potentially been displaced across the entire length of
the battlefield already. This wording was also used to try and make it clear that such units would trigger other abilities
or Stratagems, such as Auspex Scans and Early Warning Overrides, that are used when a unit is set up on the battlefield
as reinforcements – our feeling was that it shouldn’t make a difference as to the whether a unit teleported onto the
battlefield from an orbiting spacecraft or from over the next hill.
To clarify how these abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers work, we are adding the following FAQ to the Warhammer
40,000 rulebook, which is preprinted here for convenience:
WARHAMMER 40,000 UPDATE – APRIL 2019 4
Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic
powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?
A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the
following rules apply to that unit:
1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also
triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield.
2. Models in that unit count as having moved a distance equal to their Move characteristic that turn (and so
suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons). If the unit has a minimum Move
characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum Move characteristic.
3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn for any reason, other than to make a charge move,
to pile in, or to consolidate.
4. If that unit was within 1" of an enemy unit when it was removed, it does not count as having Fallen Back
when it is set back up on the battlefield.
5. If that unit has Advanced during this turn, it still counts as having Advanced after it has been set back up on
the battlefield.
6. Any destroyed models in that unit when it is removed are still destroyed when their unit is set back up on the
battlefield. If they were destroyed during this turn, they still count towards any Morale tests taken for that
unit this turn.
7. Any models in that unit that have lost any wounds do not regain those wounds when they are removed, and
will still have lost them when their unit is set back up on the battlefield.
8. Any rules that unit was being affected by when it was removed, and which would continue to affect it for a
specific duration (from abilities, Stratagems, psychic powers, etc.), continue to affect that unit until such a
point as they would normally have no longer applied. For example, a unit that was within range of an aura
ability when it was removed would no longer be affected by that ability if it was set up outside of that aura’s
range, whereas a unit that was being affected by a psychic power that lasted until the end of that turn would
still be affected by it until the end of that turn.
Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the Sustained Assault rule, any unit that has been
added to your army during the battle and has been set up (such as those added via the Daemonic Ritual
ability), or units set up via any of the following Stratagems: Fresh Converts (see Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus),
Tide of Traitors (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines), Unstoppable Green Tide (see Codex: Orks), More Where They
Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), Send in the Next Wave (Codex: Astra Militarum), and Endless
Swarm (Codex: Tyranids). These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units
being repositioned on the battlefield.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/02 22:50:47
Dadavester wrote: Da jump states "This unit counts as having moved for the purposes of any rules"
So if Da Jump COUNTS AS moving for ANY rules, it cannot be affected by Da Jump as as that directly breaks the rules for reinforcements which state the unit cannot move any further.
Wow.
Just flipping wow.
You said "Da Jump COUNTS AS moving."
This is a lie.
Do not bear false witness.
The rule actually states "The UNIT counts as HAVING moved."
It is not Da Jump that "counts". It is the UNIT that "counts". Why is this so hard for you?
Da Jump is one type of removing a unit from the battlefield and re-setting it up. This can be done AN INFINITE NUMBER OF TIMES in a turn. AN INFINITE NUMBER. As long as it doesn't MOVE twice.
You cannot move twice, but since Da Jump isn't moving, nor does the act of dajumping "count as" moving (only certain liars state that it does.) The UNIT (not the rule) counts as HAVING moved when done.
A unit can be COUNTED AS HAVING MOVED an INFINITE NUMBER OF TIMES per turn. You can COUNT A UNIT AS HAVING MOVED, then COUNT IT AGAIN AS HAVING MOVED. There is no restrictions to the number of times you can COUNT a unit as having moved. No Limit At All. You can "count" as unit as having moved AN INFINITE NUMBER OF TIMES PER TURN.
Da Jump is not movement, nor does THE RULE "count" as movement. Only units "count". Not Rules. And you can "count" it as having moved twice JUST FINE. As long as it only moved once.
Latro_ wrote: Found the re-setup faq gonna add it here but dont think it offers any gems on they count as moving so have they moved debate, might do thou?
Spoiler:
(RE)SETTING UP MODELS
There are several abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers that let players remove a unit from the battlefield and then
set it back up in a different location, but these rules are causing some confusion. The confusion is partly because it is
not clear whether or not any effects that applied to the unit before it is removed from the battlefield continue to apply
when it is set back up, and also because the wording of this rule is sometimes written as these units being set up ‘as if
they were reinforcements’, even though they are technically on the battlefield already.
The intent of the ‘as if they were reinforcements’ wording was to try and make it clear that the units had counted as
moving for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons, and that they can’t move further again this turn (other
than to charge, pile in or consolidate) – after all, these units have potentially been displaced across the entire length of
the battlefield already. This wording was also used to try and make it clear that such units would trigger other abilities
or Stratagems, such as Auspex Scans and Early Warning Overrides, that are used when a unit is set up on the battlefield
as reinforcements – our feeling was that it shouldn’t make a difference as to the whether a unit teleported onto the
battlefield from an orbiting spacecraft or from over the next hill.
To clarify how these abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers work, we are adding the following FAQ to the Warhammer
40,000 rulebook, which is preprinted here for convenience:
WARHAMMER 40,000 UPDATE – APRIL 2019 4
Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic
powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?
A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the
following rules apply to that unit:
1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also
triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield.
2. Models in that unit count as having moved a distance equal to their Move characteristic that turn (and so
suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons). If the unit has a minimum Move
characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum Move characteristic.
3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn for any reason, other than to make a charge move,
to pile in, or to consolidate.
4. If that unit was within 1" of an enemy unit when it was removed, it does not count as having Fallen Back
when it is set back up on the battlefield.
5. If that unit has Advanced during this turn, it still counts as having Advanced after it has been set back up on
the battlefield.
6. Any destroyed models in that unit when it is removed are still destroyed when their unit is set back up on the
battlefield. If they were destroyed during this turn, they still count towards any Morale tests taken for that
unit this turn.
7. Any models in that unit that have lost any wounds do not regain those wounds when they are removed, and
will still have lost them when their unit is set back up on the battlefield.
8. Any rules that unit was being affected by when it was removed, and which would continue to affect it for a
specific duration (from abilities, Stratagems, psychic powers, etc.), continue to affect that unit until such a
point as they would normally have no longer applied. For example, a unit that was within range of an aura
ability when it was removed would no longer be affected by that ability if it was set up outside of that aura’s
range, whereas a unit that was being affected by a psychic power that lasted until the end of that turn would
still be affected by it until the end of that turn.
Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the Sustained Assault rule, any unit that has been
added to your army during the battle and has been set up (such as those added via the Daemonic Ritual
ability), or units set up via any of the following Stratagems: Fresh Converts (see Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus),
Tide of Traitors (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines), Unstoppable Green Tide (see Codex: Orks), More Where They
Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), Send in the Next Wave (Codex: Astra Militarum), and Endless
Swarm (Codex: Tyranids). These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units
being repositioned on the battlefield.
So Unstoppable Green Tide is specifically listed in the April FAQ as a 'Resetting up models' style rule.
I'm also solid 100% behind JimOnMars's point about the wording of Da jump referring to the unit as having moved and not da jump itself being a move.
I also like the part where everyone not understanding this thinks that GW wrote a rule in a psychic ability used in the psychic phase that has to do with restricting our movement which happens in the movement phase. Movement phase being the phase that happens before the psychic phase, which is where Da Jump is used.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/03 05:28:04
I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works.
JohnnyHell wrote: They count as moving for all rules purposes. That means *spoilers* they don’t move in the usual sense (I agree) but you apply all rules that would apply if they had done so. There is literally no practical difference. There is no rules difference.
What aren’t you getting here, AEE?
So, if the unit would count as moving, and you can’t move after coming in from reinforcements, then you can’t move/count as moving/any other way you wanna phrase it lest a nitpick occurs.
Because, to me, GW would have said that Da Jump is exactly a Move action (albeit an unusual one because you're free to go anywhere on the table >9" from the enemy) if that were the case. I read the statement that it "counts as" as proof that it isn't a move. In which case it doesn't break the reinforcement rule because that rule states very clearly that a unit may not move again for any reason. Well this isn't a move, as proven?
As I said earlier, I don't think there's a clear cut answer here and now we're all just going around in circles. We don't need someone jumping on the thread and stating something we've all heard before though, it just pushes us through another cycle of repeating our various beliefs of how the rules are parsed, ad infinitum. We'll have to wait for clarification from GW.
No-one jumped on (aha), been in the thread a while. What doesn’t help is people who aren’t reading the rules correctly going “but it’s unclear” and pretending that gives an incorrect take some validity. Sorry no. If you’ve read it wrong it’s not an interpretation, it’s just wrong. Not being mean here, just factual. It doesn’t need clarification. “Counts as moving for all rules purposes” is about as simple and clear as you can get unless determined to misinterpret.
Still baffled that people think GW would spell out something counts as moving, yet somehow that counts for nothing in-game. “Counts as moving” isn’t a move... but it means all rules that would apply if the unit moved apply. So no, it’s not a move, correct, but you treat the unit as if it had moved. They give you the example that Heavy weapons suffer the -1 to hit for example. All other rules apply. This includes a unit that arrives from reinforcements not being able to move, so the combo in question is not usable.
I’ll leave it at that, as apparently the thread is at the “shout loudest til thread lock” phase of its life.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Dark Matter Crystal is used in the movement phase yet interacts with warp time which is cast in the psychic phase. Specifically denied by the FAQ so the move happening in a different phase has no bearing.
No one is taking about anyone moving before they are green tided or even moving before getting da jumped. It's a question of if a unit, after being set-up on the battlefield, can move (it can't) unless counts as moving =/= moving (which seems a stretch but people argued for pages about as if the shooting phase so just ask a T.O....)
3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn for any reason, other than to make a charge move,
to pile in, or to consolidate.
So Da Jump makes a unit count as doing something that it cannot do. Yep, makes sense in GW rules land I guess.
Dadavester wrote: Da jump states "This unit counts as having moved for the purposes of any rules"
So if Da Jump COUNTS AS moving for ANY rules, it cannot be affected by Da Jump as as that directly breaks the rules for reinforcements which state the unit cannot move any further.
Wow.
Just flipping wow.
You said "Da Jump COUNTS AS moving."
This is a lie.
Do not bear false witness.
The rule actually states "The UNIT counts as HAVING moved."
It is not Da Jump that "counts". It is the UNIT that "counts". Why is this so hard for you?
Da Jump is one type of removing a unit from the battlefield and re-setting it up. This can be done AN INFINITE NUMBER OF TIMES in a turn. AN INFINITE NUMBER. As long as it doesn't MOVE twice.
You cannot move twice, but since Da Jump isn't moving, nor does the act of dajumping "count as" moving (only certain liars state that it does.) The UNIT (not the rule) counts as HAVING moved when done.
A unit can be COUNTED AS HAVING MOVED an INFINITE NUMBER OF TIMES per turn. You can COUNT A UNIT AS HAVING MOVED, then COUNT IT AGAIN AS HAVING MOVED. There is no restrictions to the number of times you can COUNT a unit as having moved. No Limit At All. You can "count" as unit as having moved AN INFINITE NUMBER OF TIMES PER TURN.
Da Jump is not movement, nor does THE RULE "count" as movement. Only units "count". Not Rules. And you can "count" it as having moved twice JUST FINE. As long as it only moved once.
Why is this so hard for you?
Ok let put this in a simply way.
UGT brings the unit in as reinforcements. These cannot move again. Rules to prove this have been shown.
The text for Da Jump states the unit counts as Moved if affected by this. Rules to prove this have been sown.
Therefore the you cannot use Da Jump on reinforcements without breaking the rules.
What is so hard to understand there?
Im going to leave it at that as it is clear people either want to rules lawyer for advantage or are not reading it correctly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 06:08:15
JohnnyHell wrote: They count as moving for all rules purposes. That means *spoilers* they don’t move in the usual sense (I agree) but you apply all rules that would apply if they had done so. There is literally no practical difference. There is no rules difference.
What aren’t you getting here, AEE?
So, if the unit would count as moving, and you can’t move after coming in from reinforcements, then you can’t move/count as moving/any other way you wanna phrase it lest a nitpick occurs.
Because, to me, GW would have said that Da Jump is exactly a Move action (albeit an unusual one because you're free to go anywhere on the table >9" from the enemy) if that were the case. I read the statement that it "counts as" as proof that it isn't a move. In which case it doesn't break the reinforcement rule because that rule states very clearly that a unit may not move again for any reason. Well this isn't a move, as proven?
As I said earlier, I don't think there's a clear cut answer here and now we're all just going around in circles. We don't need someone jumping on the thread and stating something we've all heard before though, it just pushes us through another cycle of repeating our various beliefs of how the rules are parsed, ad infinitum. We'll have to wait for clarification from GW.
No-one jumped on (aha), been in the thread a while. What doesn’t help is people who aren’t reading the rules correctly going “but it’s unclear” and pretending that gives an incorrect take some validity. Sorry no. If you’ve read it wrong it’s not an interpretation, it’s just wrong. Not being mean here, just factual. It doesn’t need clarification. “Counts as moving for all rules purposes” is about as simple and clear as you can get unless determined to misinterpret.
Still baffled that people think GW would spell out something counts as moving, yet somehow that counts for nothing in-game. “Counts as moving” isn’t a move... but it means all rules that would apply if the unit moved apply. So no, it’s not a move, correct, but you treat the unit as if it had moved. They give you the example that Heavy weapons suffer the -1 to hit for example. All other rules apply. This includes a unit that arrives from reinforcements not being able to move, so the combo in question is not usable.
I’ll leave it at that, as apparently the thread is at the “shout loudest til thread lock” phase of its life.
I wasn’t talking about you jumping into the thread but ok. Now as far as I’m concerned,along with many others, it is you who is simply reading the rule wrong. The unit counts as moving for firing heavy weapons etc. That’s where the rule interaction comes in. I can’t use stratagems or abilities that actually MOVE the unit again. Since DJ isn’t a move it’s not an issue. Simple, really.
E - This happens every time there’s one of these threads too; if someone bends even a tiny bit, admits that perhaps the rule is unclear and hence why there are multiple pages of argument, those who disagree with their stance immediately use that as a basis for alleged weakness in the argument itself. It’s obvious and unnecessary. Your certainty in your own stance doesn’t make you any less likely to be wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 06:28:00
In the reinforcement rule in the BRB, it states the following in paragraph 3 of the Reinforcements tab:
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield -but they can otherwise act normally (Shoot,charge,ect.) for the rest of their turn
This is stating that units that arrive as reinforcements cannot move for any reason. It also has in the next paragraph:
Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting heavy weapons (pg 180).
This means that the unit has counted as being moved in their movement phase for all rules purposes, which would mean that it cannot be selected for reinforcements as this specific rule specifies the unit using their movement phase already. This is also to prevent people from making the same unit "hop" around the battlefield by using an ability that could be used multiple times. (remember that open and narative play is still a thing)
Since unstoppable green tide counts as reinforcements, it means that it has used it's movement phase, which means that "Da jump" which also counts as reinforcements would not be allowed on that unit because it has already "reinforced" itself.
The reason "Da jump" works on a unit on the battlefield even though it had moved, is because it has not been "Reinforced" yet. As it is the reinforcements rule that applies the "This unit cannot move any further" therefore it is aplied during it's psychic phase, not it's movement phase like most other reinforcement abilities. It even states this in the reinforcements tab paragraph 2.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 06:49:17
JohnnyHell wrote: They count as moving for all rules purposes. That means *spoilers* they don’t move in the usual sense (I agree) but you apply all rules that would apply if they had done so. There is literally no practical difference. There is no rules difference.
What aren’t you getting here, AEE?
So, if the unit would count as moving, and you can’t move after coming in from reinforcements, then you can’t move/count as moving/any other way you wanna phrase it lest a nitpick occurs.
Because, to me, GW would have said that Da Jump is exactly a Move action (albeit an unusual one because you're free to go anywhere on the table >9" from the enemy) if that were the case. I read the statement that it "counts as" as proof that it isn't a move. In which case it doesn't break the reinforcement rule because that rule states very clearly that a unit may not move again for any reason. Well this isn't a move, as proven?
As I said earlier, I don't think there's a clear cut answer here and now we're all just going around in circles. We don't need someone jumping on the thread and stating something we've all heard before though, it just pushes us through another cycle of repeating our various beliefs of how the rules are parsed, ad infinitum. We'll have to wait for clarification from GW.
No-one jumped on (aha), been in the thread a while. What doesn’t help is people who aren’t reading the rules correctly going “but it’s unclear” and pretending that gives an incorrect take some validity. Sorry no. If you’ve read it wrong it’s not an interpretation, it’s just wrong. Not being mean here, just factual. It doesn’t need clarification. “Counts as moving for all rules purposes” is about as simple and clear as you can get unless determined to misinterpret.
Still baffled that people think GW would spell out something counts as moving, yet somehow that counts for nothing in-game. “Counts as moving” isn’t a move... but it means all rules that would apply if the unit moved apply. So no, it’s not a move, correct, but you treat the unit as if it had moved. They give you the example that Heavy weapons suffer the -1 to hit for example. All other rules apply. This includes a unit that arrives from reinforcements not being able to move, so the combo in question is not usable.
I’ll leave it at that, as apparently the thread is at the “shout loudest til thread lock” phase of its life.
I wasn’t talking about you jumping into the thread but ok. Now as far as I’m concerned,along with many others, it is you who is simply reading the rule wrong. The unit counts as moving for firing heavy weapons etc. That’s where the rule interaction comes in. I can’t use stratagems or abilities that actually MOVE the unit again. Since DJ isn’t a move it’s not an issue. Simple, really.
E - This happens every time there’s one of these threads too; if someone bends even a tiny bit, admits that perhaps the rule is unclear and hence why there are multiple pages of argument, those who disagree with their stance immediately use that as a basis for alleged weakness in the argument itself. It’s obvious and unnecessary. Your certainty in your own stance doesn’t make you any less likely to be wrong.
I’m always open to being wrong. I’m not intractable. Your take just doesn’t hold rules water, is all. You’re just ignoring part of the rules.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Ok, the main issues I'm seeing on here is people claiming that the rules specifically state that "Da Jump is Moving".
They don't. The rules state, as many others have correctly pointed out, that the unit counts as having moved. Not counts as moving. very different statements.
I'm going to throw out 2 fictional scenarios (which are perfectly feasible, and may even exist), using exactly the same rules as we are dealing with - to show how the conclusion isn't making sense.
To clarify, the point of contention, with all other things taken out of account:
A unit which has been deployed as reinforcements cannot move again. Can a unit then perform an action which includes the rule "This unit counts as having moved for all rules purposes, such as firing heavy weapons, etc.".
Scenario 1:
A unit which has a special rule called Wobbly Legs, which means that this model always counts as having moved, even if it does not move.
Can the model be redeployed? After placing, it then becomes affected by the term "This model always counts as having moved". does this count as it moving twice?
Scenario 2: a model with the rule "This model always counts as not having moved for rules purposes EG firing heavy weapons".
Can this model be redeployed and then warptimed (which is actually movement) as it would still count as not having moved?
(no, because it will actually have redeployed and then moved, whether it counts as moving or not).
"his model counts as having moved" is a retrospective, written in past tense. It means that rules which take place after this event will treat the model as having moved, regardless of its displacement from its starting position.
To get to the bottom if this, we need to isolate this disagreement.
Does "counts as having moved" (those EXACT words) mean that the action which caused this effect was in fact the act of "Moving"?
Because if it isn't then the phrase "The unit cannot move" doesn't prohibit an action which is not a "move", but which ultimately results in the unit counting as "having moved".
Further conjecture: If a weapon states "The target unit counts as taking 2 extra casualties for all rules purposes, such as morale checks, mob rule etc.", does it actually kill 2 models? do 2 models have to not shoot until they are actually killed?
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The rule states counts as having moved for ANY rules purposes. What does this mean to you?
This means to me that the unit counts as having moved for any rules purposes.
It does not mean that Da Jump is a move. As such, Da Jump is not restricted as if it were a move by other rules. What's happening is people are tying 2 rules together which are not the same thing:
"The unit counts as having moved" =/= "da jump is a move".
The rule prohibits "Moving". Not "actions or abilities which cause the model to count as having moved".
Disembarking is not movement, but it does cause the unit to count as having moved for any rules purposes.
Arriving from reinforcements is not movement, but it does cause the unit to count as having moved for any rules purposes.
Moving is movement, and it causes the unit to count as having moved for any rules purposes.
Here is the explanation of why "counts as having moved" does not mean that the action involved was movement.
Please explain why "Counts as having moved" means that the action causing it was in fact a movement!
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
