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 Arbitrator wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Yes it's too much to expect the book to be absolutely FLAWLESS.

you count what 4 mistakes out of how many unit entries? two of which are just some legends based confusion, one of which is a classic spread sheet collum error (those mistakes are realllly easy to make) and one is just an "wtf" points valuer that may well be the intent. still let's assume they're all mistakes. this is hardly an ERROR RIDDLED book. error riddled would be a mistake every page or two. seriously, the fact that you call out 4 errors as "riddled" does indeed suggest you have unrealistic expectations.

Heaven forbid a company making 'record profits' should be expected to put out a thoroughly proof read product by paying for a couple of editors.

But then again GW's always got plenty of white knights who would defend the pages being bound together by faeces and they'd not lack for people going "wow so much salt over a bit of poop, grow up whiners "

I'm not sure I would consider this white knight, but yeah the level of "It's not worth complaining" or "I'm just gonna play while you whine" is a bit disheartening. This is a company making record (and largely undeserved) profits. You're telling me you're okay accepting shoddy work that anywhere else would get someone fired for not doing their job acceptable? I don't get what it is about GW that gets people to take the abuse and keep coming back for more while saying it's no big deal. Any other company would get raked over the coals for this. If any other wargaming company tried to peddle this gak they would be laughed at. Only GW has people still salivating to buy a product that clearly has no thought or care put into it and, to top it all off, are thankful for getting the opportunity to buy such a piece of gak.

This is why 8th edition is such a dumpster fire, and why GW has no reason to improve. Their fans still eat up everything they put out and give them amazing profits for garbage. What reason do they have to change? This community lost its chance to get real change when they bought hook line and sinker into the bullgak GW peddled at the start of 8th edition and it's all but turned out to be smoke and mirrors and politician's promises. Yet the masses still eat it up like candy.

Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.

 bullyboy wrote:
Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.

Rules overall are still a bloated mess (the core is great, its everything else heaped on top) and still no care for balance. Doesn't matter how responsive GW is if they continually miss the point. That's the main reason. Half of what they promised in the previews either turned out to be totally false or were said in such a vague political way that it could be spun that they technically didn't lie.

 bullyboy wrote:
Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.

have we allready forgotten ynnari and Castelan meta?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.

have we allready forgotten ynnari and Castelan meta?

Have we already forgotten how there's always a meta where something is strong that competitive players need to be mindful of when constructing lists and playing the game, because that's the nature of games? Just because there are metas where some stuff is really strong doesn't mean it's worse than other editions where there were also metas where some stuff was really strong. So, with those two things being equal, we can still say that 8th has better balance than many previous editions because so much more stuff is capable of doing things and interacting with the game than before. Even the current Marine Meta isn't the be-all-end-all; T'au have been taking a lot of top spots in big tourneys.

Wayniac wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Yes it's too much to expect the book to be absolutely FLAWLESS.

you count what 4 mistakes out of how many unit entries? two of which are just some legends based confusion, one of which is a classic spread sheet collum error (those mistakes are realllly easy to make) and one is just an "wtf" points valuer that may well be the intent. still let's assume they're all mistakes. this is hardly an ERROR RIDDLED book. error riddled would be a mistake every page or two. seriously, the fact that you call out 4 errors as "riddled" does indeed suggest you have unrealistic expectations.

Heaven forbid a company making 'record profits' should be expected to put out a thoroughly proof read product by paying for a couple of editors.

But then again GW's always got plenty of white knights who would defend the pages being bound together by faeces and they'd not lack for people going "wow so much salt over a bit of poop, grow up whiners "

I'm not sure I would consider this white knight, but yeah the level of "It's not worth complaining" or "I'm just gonna play while you whine" is a bit disheartening. This is a company making record (and largely undeserved) profits. You're telling me you're okay accepting shoddy work that anywhere else would get someone fired for not doing their job acceptable? I don't get what it is about GW that gets people to take the abuse and keep coming back for more while saying it's no big deal. Any other company would get raked over the coals for this. If any other wargaming company tried to peddle this gak they would be laughed at. Only GW has people still salivating to buy a product that clearly has no thought or care put into it and, to top it all off, are thankful for getting the opportunity to buy such a piece of gak.

This is why 8th edition is such a dumpster fire, and why GW has no reason to improve. Their fans still eat up everything they put out and give them amazing profits for garbage. What reason do they have to change? This community lost its chance to get real change when they bought hook line and sinker into the bullgak GW peddled at the start of 8th edition and it's all but turned out to be smoke and mirrors and politician's promises. Yet the masses still eat it up like candy.

It's typical Dakka hyperbole. Rather than address arguments with legitimate counter-points, its easier to just strawman their arguments. Just pretend they said something productive like: "GW is radically reorganizing and still adjusting to the new release schedule and the huge number of copy+paste style errors is a direct symptom of that. In theory it should get better over time, but companies and their methods sadly don't change nearly as fast as we'd wish them to. Remember, simply separating point costs from the rest of CA was already a positive step in the right direction and yearly balance patches (broken and all) are still better than before."

That being said, some of the copy+paste issues are atrocious. Looking over the Tau portions, I noticed a few errors. The shield generator has 3 different costs: Y'Vahra(old unchanged big suit cost), Stormsurge(new big suit cost), and everything else. The heavy burst cannon has two costs, Codex and FW. Which is hilarious because the HBC doesn't even exist in the FW index anymore since they lazy fixed it by changing the name to "Swiftstrike Burst Cannon" and "Twin Swiftstrike Burst Cannon" so it wouldn't share the same profile. Btw, both of the new names are completely missing from the weapons list. The Ion Cannon has 2 costs as well so Tigersharks pay 20pts more per cannon. Oh and stimulant injectors which were changed into a strategem when the codex dropped are still listed with a point cost in the FW point changes. Oddly enough, the Fusion Blaster uses the same cost for both Codex and FW which was changed in CA 2019.
Edit: Fixed some grammar for clarity

Other than a few exceptions I don't think they looked at fw very hard at all. It seems they've forgotten some units and even whole armies exist.

See eldar corsairs, r&h, and hellforged/relic super heavys.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Because you HAVE to have these books to play the game. It could be in crayon written by 3rd graders and people would still buy it. GW will never care about the quality of their books as long as they are required to play the game. There's no incentive and books are their highest money maker.

Not really, I didn't buy this one or any of the others, I play with the points listed in my codex and haven't had any troubles with that.

I would guess it matters in the competitive scene but, feth that.

I find it amusing that people pay for this stuff in 2019. This used to be free back in the day but now they expect the customer to pay money for a book that fixes their mistakes? No other gaming company charges for FAQs or rule tweaks. Hell some evdn hand out free rule books when editions change.

I would deffintly be in the pissed off catagory had I spent money on a product that should have been free only to find a load of mistakes.

Daston wrote:
I find it amusing that people pay for this stuff in 2019. This used to be free back in the day but now they expect the customer to pay money for a book that fixes their mistakes? No other gaming company charges for FAQs or rule tweaks. Hell some evdn hand out free rule books when editions change.

I would deffintly be in the pissed off catagory had I spent money on a product that should have been free only to find a load of mistakes.

You pay a book that fixes their mistakes, only to introduce new ones or undo ones that have been done until they realize and issue an errata for the book that's meant to be the errata while yes, them issuing FAQs faster and such is a good thing, the fact that every single fething book has needed an errata to fix grammar or missing things is beyond ridiculous. Seriously. There has not been one single book GW has released that didn't have errors or missing entries or wrong entries that needed to be fixed in the FAQ later on. Not a single one! So the FAQ is taken up by fixing crap that shouldn't have made it to print, rather than addressing the ambiguities or interactoins.

But yeah only GW can get away with this, for some reason. Any other company multiple times of this crap would cause major issues. But no, business as usual for GW and their fans.

I'm going to buy twenty!

 Togusa wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Because you HAVE to have these books to play the game. It could be in crayon written by 3rd graders and people would still buy it. GW will never care about the quality of their books as long as they are required to play the game. There's no incentive and books are their highest money maker.

Not really, I didn't buy this one or any of the others, I play with the points listed in my codex and haven't had any troubles with that.

I would guess it matters in the competitive scene but, feth that.

IOW you don't care about balance patches due to the poor initial writing of the codices. Fantastic attitude that goes hand in hand with the white knighting of the CA writing, ironically.

It's GW. Anything that got good points drops just assume they have excess inventory. Anything that got a points increase, they probably have sold most of that. Anything else is not really important for business operations. Who cares about quality when you can just FAQ it months later.

They have several games like this where they need to change the rules to sell excess inventory or to slow sales so they don't have to manufacture more. I'm sure it's a careful juggling act but they know they have a loyal fan base that is resilient to their tactics.

 dotcomee wrote:
It's GW. Anything that got good points drops just assume they have excess inventory. Anything that got a points increase, they probably have sold most of that. Anything else is not really important for business operations. Who cares about quality when you can just FAQ it months later.

They have several games like this where they need to change the rules to sell excess inventory or to slow sales so they don't have to manufacture more. I'm sure it's a careful juggling act but they know they have a loyal fan base that is resilient to their tactics.

I'm not even sure anymore it's sales-related. I think they just have no idea what needs to actually be fixed, so rather than put time into figuring it out to have a real fix (now that is likely because of sales and the crazy release schedule that probably does not leave much time for actual testing and design), they adjust points and appease the "muh balance" people until the next round when the cycle continues.

Adjusting only points proves that they really don't understand the problem, let alone how to fix it. It's an easy way to look like you're fixing balance while not doing much of anything. That's probably the reason why point changes seem so haphazard and random. They're just going by "is this getting used across tournaments? Raise its points. Is it not being used at all? Lower its points" and then a few random tweaks thrown in.

 dotcomee wrote:
It's GW. Anything that got good points drops just assume they have excess inventory. Anything that got a points increase, they probably have sold most of that. Anything else is not really important for business operations.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a Winnah!!!!!

How do you explain newer units like the Admech Skorpius Disintegrator that is currently way too awesome for its current points and should have seen a points increase? Oh, it's the new hotness; a new small tank model smaller than a Rhino that sells for twice as much; cha-ching! (I expect the new Admech flyer to be a bargain in points as well).


Why have Necron Warriors not received a much-needed points drop? (no only plays them competitively anymore) Oh, it's because GW sold tons of kits years ago, there are plenty on the used market, and GW won't make much money off of that kit until they redesign them. Once they are redesigned, then expect the points drop.


Why did it take so long for the Castellan to get nerfed? Oh, it's because GW had to clear out more stock. Once sufficient numbers were sold, then it got nerfed.


Sorry to be such a pessimist, but this game could be so much better if the designers weren't constrained by the accountants.

bullyboy wrote:Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.

8th is what got me back in the game. I tried to come back in 7th but one look at the shitshow of rules and "feth this" came to mind.

is 8th the best ever? actually no ruleset is the best ever, since ever hasnt happened yet. Is it the best one yet? probably but I love RT/2nd so....

the game is fun, now it may not be for those who like feth you lists and squeezing every last minuscule point/whatever, but why on Terra are you playing a GW game. it has never been a competitive style game(cuz GW would rather both players talk & enjoy the game)and for the foreseeable future, isnt gonna change.

Errors happen, ALL THE TIME, irrespective of the company's ability/size to mitigate them. many posts have lamented the inability to catch even the most glaring problems. now whether it's due to incompetence, malice or neither for some it is just too much. If so then you really need to look in the mirror and ask yourself 'why do I continue to play this game?' since it obviously isnt what I want and vote with your $€£¥.

 Gnarlly wrote:

 dotcomee wrote:
It's GW. Anything that got good points drops just assume they have excess inventory. Anything that got a points increase, they probably have sold most of that. Anything else is not really important for business operations.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a Winnah!!!!!

How do you explain newer units like the Admech Skorpius Disintegrator that is currently way too awesome for its current points and should have seen a points increase? Oh, it's the new hotness; a new small tank model smaller than a Rhino that sells for twice as much; cha-ching! (I expect the new Admech flyer to be a bargain in points as well).


Why have Necron Warriors not received a much-needed points drop? (no only plays them competitively anymore) Oh, it's because GW sold tons of kits years ago, there are plenty on the used market, and GW won't make much money off of that kit until they redesign them. Once they are redesigned, then expect the points drop.


Why did it take so long for the Castellan to get nerfed? Oh, it's because GW had to clear out more stock. Once sufficient numbers were sold, then it got nerfed.


Sorry to be such a pessimist, but this game could be so much better if the designers weren't constrained by the accountants.

Not always the case though.
It’s easy to throw in a pattern where there isn’t always one.

Generally, pricing was done based on the products role.
Characters and elite units would sell the least, thus a higher price.
Things like the rhino have to be cheap as people will often run several of them in an army.
It’s been like this for ages though so nothing really new.
Dual kits and kits with several options also took a hit and the price jumped too, despite their roles respectively.

Not sure if it's been mentioned already but p.103 has Icarus Lascannons putting out 2D6 shots now.

Racerguy180 wrote:

bullyboy wrote:Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.

8th is what got me back in the game. I tried to come back in 7th but one look at the shitshow of rules and "feth this" came to mind.

is 8th the best ever? actually no ruleset is the best ever, since ever hasnt happened yet. Is it the best one yet? probably but I love RT/2nd so....

the game is fun, now it may not be for those who like feth you lists and squeezing every last minuscule point/whatever, but why on Terra are you playing a GW game. it has never been a competitive style game(cuz GW would rather both players talk & enjoy the game)and for the foreseeable future, isnt gonna change.

Errors happen, ALL THE TIME, irrespective of the company's ability/size to mitigate them. many posts have lamented the inability to catch even the most glaring problems. now whether it's due to incompetence, malice or neither for some it is just too much. If so then you really need to look in the mirror and ask yourself 'why do I continue to play this game?' since it obviously isnt what I want and vote with your $€£¥.

I mean, the OP has admitted they don’t even play actual real games of 40K. Make of that what you will.

And another vote for 8th being rather fun here. So salty round here sometimes...

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

bullyboy wrote:Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.

8th is what got me back in the game. I tried to come back in 7th but one look at the shitshow of rules and "feth this" came to mind.

is 8th the best ever? actually no ruleset is the best ever, since ever hasnt happened yet. Is it the best one yet? probably but I love RT/2nd so....

the game is fun, now it may not be for those who like feth you lists and squeezing every last minuscule point/whatever, but why on Terra are you playing a GW game. it has never been a competitive style game(cuz GW would rather both players talk & enjoy the game)and for the foreseeable future, isnt gonna change.

Errors happen, ALL THE TIME, irrespective of the company's ability/size to mitigate them. many posts have lamented the inability to catch even the most glaring problems. now whether it's due to incompetence, malice or neither for some it is just too much. If so then you really need to look in the mirror and ask yourself 'why do I continue to play this game?' since it obviously isnt what I want and vote with your $€£¥.

I mean, the OP has admitted they don’t even play actual real games of 40K. Make of that what you will.

And another vote for 8th being rather fun here. So salty round here sometimes...

Who has time to play? Complaining on Dakka is the true hobby end game.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

bullyboy wrote:Not exactly sure I understand how people call 8th a "Dumpster Fire". It is extremely popular, has had better balance than many previous editions (current marine meta may be first real exception), has a more responsive GW than previous years, more players, better sales, but yeah....dumpster fire.

8th is what got me back in the game. I tried to come back in 7th but one look at the shitshow of rules and "feth this" came to mind.

is 8th the best ever? actually no ruleset is the best ever, since ever hasnt happened yet. Is it the best one yet? probably but I love RT/2nd so....

the game is fun, now it may not be for those who like feth you lists and squeezing every last minuscule point/whatever, but why on Terra are you playing a GW game. it has never been a competitive style game(cuz GW would rather both players talk & enjoy the game)and for the foreseeable future, isnt gonna change.

Errors happen, ALL THE TIME, irrespective of the company's ability/size to mitigate them. many posts have lamented the inability to catch even the most glaring problems. now whether it's due to incompetence, malice or neither for some it is just too much. If so then you really need to look in the mirror and ask yourself 'why do I continue to play this game?' since it obviously isnt what I want and vote with your $€£¥.

I mean, the OP has admitted they don’t even play actual real games of 40K. Make of that what you will.

And another vote for 8th being rather fun here. So salty round here sometimes...

Yeah, shame that some people are saying you should hold GW to a standard higher than something like Walmart, and then you continue to make excuses for things that people are catching like half an hour into leaked rules.

Keep stuffing that strawman, Slayer.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Keep stuffing that strawman, Slayer.

That's not a strawman. Quite a few people have proved they don't care about quality in this very thread, not to mention how often people make excuses and say how it's no big deal to have tons of proofing and grammatical or copy/paste errors in a "premium" book put out by a large multi-million dollar company. Slayer is 100% right. For some reason GW can put out horrible quality that any other company would get lambasted over and people are happy to shell out money for it and defend them putting out poor quality. Some time ago I even saw some birdbrain defend it by saying GW isn't a publishing company, as though that somehow means they shouldn't do any proofreading or proper editing like you know, every other fething company in the world that has books they also sell.

My only gripe with errors in the books, and by errors I mean stuff that are typos, is the fact that GW seemed to have sent to print non english versions with a bit different points in it. Not everyone in my area reads or likes to use english, but more then a few use german as their foreign language. I really hope the german CA is not going to end up requiring a separate FAQ.

On the rest, I do agree with others, that GW is selling a premium product, and premium products are suppose to be as close to foultless as possible. A bad product would kill any company making luxurious stuff, with GW there seem to be whole legions of people, who think that having multiple errors in 50$ books is okey.

Karol wrote:
My only gripe with errors in the books, and by errors I mean stuff that are typos, is the fact that GW seemed to have sent to print non english versions with a bit different points in it. Not everyone in my area reads or likes to use english, but more then a few use german as their foreign language. I really hope the german CA is not going to end up requiring a separate FAQ.

On the rest, I do agree with others, that GW is selling a premium product, and premium products are suppose to be as close to foultless as possible. A bad product would kill any company making luxurious stuff, with GW there seem to be whole legions of people, who think that having multiple errors in 50$ books is okey.

Chapter approved is $35, but still. It's not like this is the first book. Every single book has been riddled with errors or just lazy copy/pasting things without taking into account that it's changed elsewhere. So people are never sure what's right or not because a lazy copy/paste in CA might mean someone forgot to check FAQs, or that they actually changed it back. It causes more confusion and it happens EVERY. fething. TIME.

There's no excuse for this amateur hour horsegak.

Well we have a 23% vat on all books, plus GW has some really strange exchange rates as far as pound to zloty goes. On new stuff it is was over costed in their favour. On some old stuff on the other hand it seems cheap, if you take GW price in zlotys and change it to dollars, the scouts come out cheaper then in the US. That is of course, if GW actualy has them in stock.

Don't disagree about the errors though, or that their products seem to require a day one errata/FAQ.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Keep stuffing that strawman, Slayer.

Show me where the strawman is. You're gonna have a hard time though.

It’s a strawman if you’re putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say. I made no excuses for GW, mounted no defense of errors etc. You inferred a lot. I simply said the OP doesn’t play, that I enjoy 8th and the salt levels can become tiring. You provided everything else. If other people in the thread said stuff do direct it at them.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s a strawman if you’re putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say. I made no excuses for GW, mounted no defense of errors etc. You inferred a lot. I simply said the OP doesn’t play, that I enjoy 8th and the salt levels can become tiring. You provided everything else. If other people in the thread said stuff do direct it at them.

Speaking as a 40k salt factory, I can tell you that if you want the salt to stop flowing, you'll have to stop the mine. There are justified reasons to be salty about 8th edition, and those reasons are squarely in GW's realm, not that of the players.

I go off and on of 8th - am playing now thanks to the new Sororitas dex. But I won't be surprised if I am gone again in a few months.

To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.