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 DeathReaper wrote:
SeanDavid1991, What page of the rules is that on? Because I do not see that chart in the rules at all.

barontuman wrote:
DeathReaper is clearly wrong.

So you are going to ignore the rules quotes I posted that prove what I have been saying and call my quotes wrong anyway? Interesting.

Once the movement phase begins, then it's too late to use a strategem that indicates "at the start of the turn". It's too late because at the start of the turn, is BEFORE the movement phase. Before the start of the turn is not a phase, it is a distinct time frame which begins between either the end of the previous players turn, or the start of the game. It ends when the movement phase begins. Otherwise it would be written "at the start of the movement phase".

Can you show me a rules quote that says "Before the start of the turn is not a phase, it is a distinct time frame which begins between either the end of the previous players turn, or the start of the game. It ends when the movement phase begins."?

Because I can not find that in the rules at all.

But... as players, and (specifically as TOs) we need to consider what this does to our game. Does it break it? What strategems are now available to be done multiple times?

For necrons, Reclaim a Lost Empire can be applied multiple times to a single unit.

No it can not, as it happens at the end of your turn, there is no provision to use it multiple times, and Strategic Discipline rule only allows for Strats that are used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’, not for ones used at the end of your turn (Which is synonymous with the end of your morale phase).

Meaning that I can realistically add +5 to my saving throws, and +5 attacks per model if it doesn't move. Ones always fail, so it's got limited utility. Costly, but potentially hilarious, but hardly game breaking since the opponent doesn't have to shoot or charge the unit.

False as per the rules I posted.

Enhanced Reanimation protocols can be applied to multiple units.

No it can not, ERP is used at the beginning of your turn, so it is done at the start of the movement phase.

I do not know enough about the other abilities you posted, so I can not comment on those.

You cannot use something "At the start of your turn" in the Movement phase.

Movement Phase begins with selecting a unit to move (Pg3 Battle Primer).
Once this is done it is no longer the start of your turn so the rules cannot be activated.
Until this is done it is not your turn (according to your interpretation), so the rule cannot be used.

Your interpretation does not work.

 DeathReaper wrote:
SeanDavid1991, What page of the rules is that on? Because I do not see that chart in the rules at all.

barontuman wrote:
DeathReaper is clearly wrong.

So you are going to ignore the rules quotes I posted that prove what I have been saying and call my quotes wrong anyway? Interesting.

Dadavester wrote:


You cannot use something "At the start of your turn" in the Movement phase.

Movement Phase begins with selecting a unit to move (Pg3 Battle Primer).
Once this is done it is no longer the start of your turn so the rules cannot be activated.
Until this is done it is not your turn (according to your interpretation), so the rule cannot be used.

Your interpretation does not work.

"Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order."

The Core Rules state nothing about the start of a turn being a separate entity, only that there are a series of phases. So, by the Core Rules, DeathReaper is correct.

That said, there is the FAQ stating the end of a turn is something separate, so by inference the start would also be something separate, but that is the only indication in the rules that this is true. Also, general practice is to treat the start of the turn and the end of the turn as separate entities. So, going on that, you would be correct, but that is GW playing different from what they have said in RAW. They most likely have taken the "but of course they're different, it goes without saying" approach, so they didn't say it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barontuman wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
SeanDavid1991, What page of the rules is that on? Because I do not see that chart in the rules at all.

barontuman wrote:
DeathReaper is clearly wrong.

So you are going to ignore the rules quotes I posted that prove what I have been saying and call my quotes wrong anyway? Interesting.

You haven't quoted any rule that states that the start of the turn means the same thing as the start of the movement phase.

By stating a turn is made up of... it is implicitly stating this is all that the turn is made up of.
GW has then carved some exceptions out and made a mess. But reaper is right in this. There is a definition of the time slices a turn is made up of up of, and "start of turn" does not exist as a defined point in time

What this means is that those trying to prove dr wrong, by providing no contrary rules but a "these exist so it must work this way" argument miss that *gw messed up* is the actual answer, and instead of giving us rules based definitions, gave us purely colloquial ones.

The following is based on Deathreaper and BCB's predication.

If the start of the turn is in the movement phase, then the start of the turn is also the start of the movement phase.
Anything that requires you to do something at the start of the turn happens at the exact same time as something that happens at the start of your movement phase.

Example, My Will be Done and Moving a unit.
If they don't happen at the exact same time, then one of them isn't happening at the start of the phase and you can't do it.
If they aren't simultaneous then if you use MWBD then it's no longer the start of your movement phase and you cannot move any units.

 deviantduck wrote:
The following is based on Deathreaper and BCB's predication.

If the start of the turn is in the movement phase, then the start of the turn is also the start of the movement phase.
Anything that requires you to do something at the start of the turn happens at the exact same time as something that happens at the start of your movement phase.

Example, My Will be Done and Moving a unit.
If they don't happen at the exact same time, then one of them isn't happening at the start of the phase and you can't do it.
If they aren't simultaneous then if you use MWBD then it's no longer the start of your movement phase and you cannot move any units.

You're ignoring sequencing.

nosferatu : You've fairly summed up most of the arguments.

Essentially, we are trying to define what "At the start of the turn" means.

DeathReaper is claiming that it is equivalent to "At the start of the movement phase". If that's what was the intent, then why have such consistent different terminology? If we had 2 rules, one that was "at the start of the turn" and one that was "at the start of the movement phase", clearly the "start of the turn" would happen first. This means that they are not equivalent.

So, if something happens before the start of something else, then it is not a part of the same thing. It's simple mathematical / logical reasoning. You can't have something 2 things which are completely identical but different.

So, again, "start of the movement phase" is AFTER the "start of the turn" which means they are discrete instances of time which do not overlap. If the start of the turn does not overlap with the start of the movement phase, then it is not part of the phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said, I'd like to see the worst of the consequences that can break the game so that I can play a house-rule which says "start of the turn strategems cannot be played multiple times". Who knows? Maybe we're playing it wrong and is the reason that Necrons feel so underpowered right not (doubtful).

Dadavester wrote:


You cannot use something "At the start of your turn" in the Movement phase..

You have to, as that is the start of your turn.

Your turn starts at Phase 1...

barontuman wrote:

You haven't quoted any rule that states that the start of the turn means the same thing as the start of the movement phase.

I have, but i will show you again.

Page 2 40k Battle Primer " Once both players have completed a turn, the battle round has been completed" So the end of the second player turn is the end of the battle round.

And as we all know "Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows..."

Therefore when Phase 1 starts, the turn starts, and when phase 6 ends that players turn ends.

barontuman wrote:
DeathReaper is claiming that it is equivalent to "At the start of the movement phase".

The rules quotes I have provided actually prove that is correct. So I am not just claiming it, I have rules to back my stance.

If that's what was the intent, then why have such consistent different terminology?

Because GW can not write concise rules. This is a long standing problem, so I do not expect it to get fixed anytime soon.

I can only presume they've used the start of turn phrases to explicitly make things happen before you can possibly move a model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I can only presume they've used the start of turn phrases to explicitly make things happen before you can possibly move a model.

That would still apply to Start of the movement phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Dadavester wrote:


You cannot use something "At the start of your turn" in the Movement phase..

You have to, as that is the start of your turn.

Your turn starts at Phase 1...

So, as a necron player, i can move my models, and use RP and MWBD, because those rules happen at the same time, thus sequencing comes into play. And i can use stratagems at the start of the turn during the movement phase, because the movement phase starts, when i move my models.

The rules are not written well.

So I am going to agree with nosferatu1001 on this one:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I can only presume they've used the start of turn phrases to explicitly make things happen before you can possibly move a model.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules are not written well.

So I am going to agree with nosferatu1001 on this one:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I can only presume they've used the start of turn phrases to explicitly make things happen before you can possibly move a model.

So, the start of the movement phase is not the start of the turn. By that logic, the end of the turn is not the same as the morale phase.

The start of the movement phase is the start of the turn. As I have shown with rules quotes.

GW can not write concise rules so we get left trying to figure out what they meant with the whole "start of turn" thing.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The start of the movement phase is the start of the turn. As I have shown with rules quotes.

GW can not write concise rules so we get left trying to figure out what they meant with the whole "start of turn" thing.

You havent shown any rules quotes that prove your assumption.

Will you please just agree to disagree?

Its crystal clear this is going nowhere.

We have an example of GW stating that something can happen outside of a phase. Why is everyone ignoring that rule.

They literally say "... stratagems played outside of a phase..."

So a turn does not just consist of the phases and nothing else, GW themselves have said there is outside of a phase.

So as we know that outside of a phase can exsist it debunks the argument that nothing can hapoen outside of a phase.

Because, devils advocate, we still dont have a clear citation that something can be out of phases AND in a turn. Just examples of things that are out of turns and in battlerounds.

 Stux wrote:
Because, devils advocate, we still dont have a clear citation that something can be out of phases AND in a turn. Just examples of things that are out of turns and in battlerounds.

Is that not spliting hairs? We have no clear citation that the game is played with dice numbered 1-6, yet it is.

The strategic discipline rule uses the phrase 'such as' when describing out of phase situations, I read this to mean including, but not limited to..

At this point we have lots of evidence pointing to start and end of turn being outside of a phase. The only evidence we have that they are not is pg 1 of the battle primer not listing anything. But this is shown to be overuled by the strategic disc rule.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The start of the movement phase is the start of the turn. As I have shown with rules quotes.

GW can not write concise rules so we get left trying to figure out what they meant with the whole "start of turn" thing.

You havent shown any rules quotes that prove your assumption.

You know that is false.

I will post them again so you can read them again.

Page 2 of the Battle Primer wrote: Warhammer 40,000 is played in a series of battle rounds. During each battle round, both players have a turn.

So we know a battle round consists of 2 turns, one for each player.

Page 2 of the Battle Primer wrote:Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order.

The start of a players turn is the start of the movement phase, as it is the first thing listed, and numbered 1, and as such is the first thing that happens when the turn starts.

The turn starts at the start of the movement phase, since there is literally nothing listed before this.

So we know that a players turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. and then they list those 6 phases. That is all that a turn is comprised of.

There are no other phases outside of the 6 listed phases in a turn.

I have not seen anyone post any rules to say there are other phases, so there are not. There are of course special exceptions to play some strats, but that does not mean there is a magically created phase with no rules to back that up.

 DeathReaper wrote:

The start of a players turn is the start of the movement phase, as it is the first thing listed, and numbered 1, and as such is the first thing that happens when the turn starts.

So, as a necron player, i can pick a unit, and move its models, then do RP and MWBD because of sequencing, because, as you say, start of the turn, and start of movement phase, happen at the same time ?

Let me rephrase that, any player which has rules which are resolved at the start of his turn, can move the models from one of his unit, and because of sequencing, resolve those start of their turn rules, after he has moved the models from one unit ?

The rules say that you start your movement phase by picking a unit, once you actually select a unit to move, it is no longer the start of the turn/start of the movement phase. At that point you have moved on to and are in the movement phase.

GW intended for things that happen at the start of the turn to happen before movement. They just cant write rules that make sense to everyone.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules say that you start your movement phase by picking a unit, once you actually select a unit to move, it is no longer the start of the turn/start of the movement phase. At that point you have moved on to and are in the movement phase.

GW intended for things that happen at the start of the turn to happen before movement. They just cant write rules that make sense to everyone.

Ok, then this is settled. There is a point of time in the game (start of turn), that is not during a phase. Logically, the end of the turn is after the morale phase, and also not during a phase.

Not this old chestnut.

There are things in the rules that happen “at the start of a player’s turn” but before the Movement Phase. There’s also “at the start of the first Battle Round but before the first turn begins”. There are demonstrably events before and after the phases of a turn listed in the Battle Primer/BRB. There are also phases within phases... “at the start of the Movement Phase”, the main bulk of the Movement Phase, and “at the end of the Movement Phase” are in essence executed as three mini phases within the MP itself. It’s just how it is.

Some will argue vociferously against this but then various bits of rules break.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules say that you start your movement phase by picking a unit, once you actually select a unit to move, it is no longer the start of the turn/start of the movement phase. At that point you have moved on to and are in the movement phase.

GW intended for things that happen at the start of the turn to happen before movement. They just cant write rules that make sense to everyone.

Ok, then this is settled. There is a point of time in the game (start of turn), that is not during a phase. Logically, the end of the turn is after the morale phase, and also not during a phase.

(Emphasis mine)

Again, you have literally no citation for the the underlined part. So it is settled, but not how you have laid it out.

There is a point of time in the game (start of turn) that is during a phase (Phase 1). Logically, the end of the turn is the last thing in the morale phase.

Unless you have citations otherwise.

Guys you're literally just saying the same things over and over. You're not changing each other's minds, all the arguments have been presented ad nausium for others to make up their minds. Time to just step away.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules say that you start your movement phase by picking a unit, once you actually select a unit to move, it is no longer the start of the turn/start of the movement phase. At that point you have moved on to and are in the movement phase.

GW intended for things that happen at the start of the turn to happen before movement. They just cant write rules that make sense to everyone.

Ok, then this is settled. There is a point of time in the game (start of turn), that is not during a phase. Logically, the end of the turn is after the morale phase, and also not during a phase.

(Emphasis mine)

Again, you have literally no citation for the the underlined part. So it is settled, but not how you have laid it out.

You also have no citation that the start of the movement phase is equal to the start of the turn. The majority of people in this thread agree with my interpretation. There is lots of evidence and rule changes that there are points of time during the game which are not during a phase, and are not affected by the strategic discipline rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules say that you start your movement phase by picking a unit, once you actually select a unit to move, it is no longer the start of the turn/start of the movement phase. At that point you have moved on to and are in the movement phase.

GW intended for things that happen at the start of the turn to happen before movement. They just cant write rules that make sense to everyone.

Ok, then this is settled. There is a point of time in the game (start of turn), that is not during a phase. Logically, the end of the turn is after the morale phase, and also not during a phase.

(Emphasis mine)

Again, you have literally no citation for the the underlined part. So it is settled, but not how you have laid it out.

There is a point of time in the game (start of turn) that is during a phase (Phase 1). Logically, the end of the turn is the last thing in the morale phase.

Unless you have citations otherwise.

There is citations, and i have provided it many times during this thread. You keep ignoring the Strategic Discipline rule, rule proved there is a passage of play that is "Outside" of a phase.

This disproves your assertation that there is no part of the game outside of a phase.

Think this thread is done, all the points seem to have been covered and we are now just going in circles. If it becomes an issue in a game then to talk to your opponent or TO.