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 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

So we know that a players turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. and then they list those 6 phases. That is all that a turn is comprised of.

There are no other phases outside of the 6 listed phases in a turn.

I have never said that there more than 6 phases. But there are points of time in the game when its not during a phase, and those points in time are not limited by strategic discipline. Otherwise GW would not have mentioned those two examples. Until further clarification from GW, my opinion is that any stratagem that doesnt mention the name of a phase, is not limited by strategic discipline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
Wouldn't that also mean that Stratagems and Abilities that are worded without the Phase terminology would also be "specific exceptions"? Such as "at the end/beginning of the turn".

Yes, thats what i am saying all the time.

Providing you use the stratagem at the time of outside a phase (command re-roll for example still obeys strategic discipline depending when used).

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

So we know that a players turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. and then they list those 6 phases. That is all that a turn is comprised of.

There are no other phases outside of the 6 listed phases in a turn.

I have never said that there more than 6 phases. But there are points of time in the game when its not during a phase, and those points in time are not limited by strategic discipline. Otherwise GW would not have mentioned those two examples. Until further clarification from GW, my opinion is that any stratagem that doesnt mention the name of a phase, is not limited by strategic discipline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
Wouldn't that also mean that Stratagems and Abilities that are worded without the Phase terminology would also be "specific exceptions"? Such as "at the end/beginning of the turn".

Yes, thats what i am saying all the time.

Providing you use the stratagem at the time of outside a phase (command re-roll for example still obeys strategic discipline depending when used).

Yes, reclaim a lost empire is played at the end of turn, which is outside of a phase.

*maybe

If the start of the turn was the start of the movement phase then why couldn't you move your models and then use RP? They would happen at the same time and it would be the controlling player to decide the order of simultaneous events.

 deviantduck wrote:
If the start of the turn was the start of the movement phase then why couldn't you move your models and then use RP? They would happen at the same time and it would be the controlling player to decide the order of simultaneous events.

Because that would be the middle of the Movement phase, not the beginning of it.

 deviantduck wrote:
If the start of the turn was the start of the movement phase then why couldn't you move your models and then use RP? They would happen at the same time and it would be the controlling player to decide the order of simultaneous events.

Because It says you start your movement phase by picking a unit, once you do that it is not longer the start of the movement phase.

Sequencing does not enter into that scenario.

Sure it does. Sequencing some into effect whenever two things would happen at the same time.

If you start your Movement phase by picking a unit and an ability needs to happen at the start of the Movement phase, you have to use sequencing to have both happen.

And if the start of your turn is the start of your Movement phase, you also need to use sequencing to decide which happens first between picking a unit, start of the Movement phase actions, and start of the turn actions.

And if the start of the first player's turn is the start of of the battle round, you need to use sequencing to decide which happens first between picking a unit, start of the Movement phase actions, start of the turn actions, and start of the battle round.

The inverse must then be true for end of the Morale phase, end of the second player's turn, and end of the battle round. But we know that the end of the battle round is not in a phase per the Strategic Discipline rule.

Therefore the end of the battle round is not the end of the second player's turn. It is a non-phase point of the game that can only be accessed by abilities that you use at that time.

 alextroy wrote:
Sure it does. Sequencing some into effect whenever two things would happen at the same time.

Sure, but that is not what is happening in this case.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Sure it does. Sequencing some into effect whenever two things would happen at the same time.

Sure, but that is not what is happening in this case.

True, because the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase dont happen at the same time.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Sure it does. Sequencing some into effect whenever two things would happen at the same time.

Sure, but that is not what is happening in this case.

True, because the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase dont happen at the same time.

You have claimed that, but have not proven it, so Citation needed.

My Will Be Done states - "At the start of your Turn"

Movement phase states - "Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model
in that unit..."

So when is MWBD activated? This is not sequencing as the 2 rules do not have the same trigger. The only way MWBD, and similar rules, can work is if there is a gap between Start of Turn and Movement Phase.

If you say there is no gap many many rules just fail to activate, as the movement phase starts with selecting and moving a unit. Once you do that it is no longer the start of your turn.

Also with the start of turn is different to start of movement phase (which I agree with btw)

In missions like the new ritual of the damned with the chaos world stuff.

At the start of the turn you roll a D6 for the world effect table. You also at the start of the turn rotate turns to move unoccupied terrain up to 2d3".

This is all start of the turn/battleround. Not the start of the Attackers movement phase which is a diffferent phase.

There are a bountiful amount of rules that discriminate start of Turn/battleround and start of movement phase. There is a gap between phases and turns where stuff can happen. Granted stuff doesn't always happen which is why it goes by ignored a lot of the time. But they are still there.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Also with the start of turn is different to start of movement phase (which I agree with btw)

In missions like the new ritual of the damned with the chaos world stuff.

At the start of the turn you roll a D6 for the world effect table. You also at the start of the turn rotate turns to move unoccupied terrain up to 2d3".

This is all start of the turn/battleround. Not the start of the Attackers movement phase which is a diffferent phase.

There are a bountiful amount of rules that discriminate start of Turn/battleround and start of movement phase. There is a gap between phases and turns where stuff can happen. Granted stuff doesn't always happen which is why it goes by ignored a lot of the time. But they are still there.

Exactly.

The Strategic Discipline Rule even makes reference to "end of turn" not being part of a phase. There is ample evidence to show that Start of and End of turn are outside of phases, and as such Strategms can be used as often as you want in them. Unless stated otherwise of course.

Dadavester wrote:
My Will Be Done states - "At the start of your Turn"

Movement phase states - "Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model
in that unit..."

So when is MWBD activated? This is not sequencing as the 2 rules do not have the same trigger. The only way MWBD, and similar rules, can work is if there is a gap between Start of Turn and Movement Phase.

If you say there is no gap many many rules just fail to activate, as the movement phase starts with selecting and moving a unit. Once you do that it is no longer the start of your turn.

My Will Be Done is a special exception to the base rules, that is all it is.

 DeathReaper wrote:

My Will Be Done is a special exception to the base rules, that is all it is.

Give it up, you lost this battle.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
My Will Be Done states - "At the start of your Turn"

Movement phase states - "Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model
in that unit..."

So when is MWBD activated? This is not sequencing as the 2 rules do not have the same trigger. The only way MWBD, and similar rules, can work is if there is a gap between Start of Turn and Movement Phase.

If you say there is no gap many many rules just fail to activate, as the movement phase starts with selecting and moving a unit. Once you do that it is no longer the start of your turn.

My Will Be Done is a special exception to the base rules, that is all it is.

Even if you say that, and i disagree completely, what about Strategic Discipline specifying that End of Battle Round is not part of a phase? That by itself proves there is space between phases in which rules apply.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

My Will Be Done is a special exception to the base rules, that is all it is.

Give it up, you lost this battle.

Says the person that can not back up his position with actual rules.

I have posted rules that back my position.

Dadavester wrote:
Even if you say that, and i disagree completely, what about Strategic Discipline specifying that End of Battle Round is not part of a phase? That by itself proves there is space between phases in which rules apply.

That FAQ provides a special exception for that rule is all that does.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

My Will Be Done is a special exception to the base rules, that is all it is.

Give it up, you lost this battle.

Says the person that can not back up his position with actual rules.

I have posted rules that back my position.

Dadavester wrote:
Even if you say that, and i disagree completely, what about Strategic Discipline specifying that End of Battle Round is not part of a phase? That by itself proves there is space between phases in which rules apply.

That FAQ provides a special exception for that rule is all that does.

What exception for what rule?

Strategic discipline,

"The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’"

This is a Matched Play rule Not an FAQ. It clearly statesthat End of battle round is not part of a phase. This proves that space exists between Phases.

Dadavester wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

My Will Be Done is a special exception to the base rules, that is all it is.

Give it up, you lost this battle.

Says the person that can not back up his position with actual rules.

I have posted rules that back my position.

Dadavester wrote:
Even if you say that, and i disagree completely, what about Strategic Discipline specifying that End of Battle Round is not part of a phase? That by itself proves there is space between phases in which rules apply.

That FAQ provides a special exception for that rule is all that does.

What exception for what rule?

Strategic discipline,

"The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’"

This is a Matched Play rule Not an FAQ. It clearly statesthat End of battle round is not part of a phase. This proves that space exists between Phases.

The exception Strategic discipline has to occur outside of any known phase. Page 2 of the Battle Primer is clear on what 6 phases make up a whole player turn. Everything in a player turn happens within that time-frame.

Strategic discipline has a specific exception to be used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’ but does not create an additional phase, as Strategic discipline does not mention that it adds any phases to the turn.

Normally anything that happens ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’ would normally be in a phase, but the Strategic discipline FAQ (I use FAQ as a blanket catch all for errata, FAQ's, etc...) provides an exception to the normal rules about phases.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Dadavester wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

My Will Be Done is a special exception to the base rules, that is all it is.

Give it up, you lost this battle.

Says the person that can not back up his position with actual rules.

I have posted rules that back my position.

Dadavester wrote:
Even if you say that, and i disagree completely, what about Strategic Discipline specifying that End of Battle Round is not part of a phase? That by itself proves there is space between phases in which rules apply.

That FAQ provides a special exception for that rule is all that does.

What exception for what rule?

Strategic discipline,

"The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’"

This is a Matched Play rule Not an FAQ. It clearly statesthat End of battle round is not part of a phase. This proves that space exists between Phases.

The exception Strategic discipline has to occur outside of any known phase. Page 2 of the Battle Primer is clear on what 6 phases make up a whole player turn. Everything in a player turn happens within that time-frame.

Strategic discipline has a specific exception to be used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’ but does not create an additional phase, as Strategic discipline does not mention that it adds any phases to the turn.

Normally anything that happens ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’ would normally be in a phase, but the Strategic discipline FAQ (I use FAQ as a blanket catch all for errata, FAQ's, etc...) provides an exception to the normal rules about phases.

I'm starting to see your confusion here.

The gap between phases isn't hidden extra phases. You are quite right a turn is made of of those six phases. And a battle round is made up each player's turns.

The difference is there is a time gap between the phases that still happen. It just so happens that most of the time this time gap in instantaneous because rarely anything happens.

But the gap does exist. Much like the space between atoms. Everything is made up of atoms so how can there be a gap of emptiness.

In the event things happen in these gaps i.e. stratagems that happen at the end of the turn or start of the turn (in that gap oblivion) then they do not adhere to strategic discipline as they are not "in a phase". Unless the stratagem discloses otherwise. i.e. once per battle etc.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:


I'm starting to see your confusion here.

That is strange, because I am not confused.

The gap between phases isn't hidden extra phases. You are quite right a turn is made of of those six phases. And a battle round is made up each player's turns.

The difference is there is a time gap between the phases that still happen. It just so happens that most of the time this time gap in instantaneous because rarely anything happens.

This is false, there is no gap that still happens all the time, Unless you have a citation saying otherwise.

But the gap does exist. Much like the space between atoms. Everything is made up of atoms so how can there be a gap of emptiness.

Prove it with a rules quote.

In the event things happen in these gaps i.e. stratagems that happen at the end of the turn or start of the turn (in that gap oblivion) then they do not adhere to strategic discipline as they are not "in a phase". Unless the stratagem discloses otherwise. i.e. once per battle etc.

That is the only time anything ever happens there, and they have a special exception to happen at that specific time.

I have attached a flow to help.

A stratagem can be used any any point between the Gold Circles, Unless the stratagem specifically states it must be used outside these Gold circles. (I don't recall any but could be wrong)

The colours represent the phases.
1. Brown being Movement phase
2. Pink Psychic Phase
3. Yellow Shooting Phase
4. Red Charge Phase
5. Black Fight Phase
6. Cyan Morale Phase

As you can see the six phases do make up the turn but there are gaps between the phases indicated by the Dark blue and medium blue boxes. Also there is gap even there indicated by the flow arrows.

The stratagems dictate where within this flow they can be used. Some do not dictate and simply must be used between the gold Circles at start and end. In rare circumstances they may indicate they cannot happen in this flow at all and must happen before or after.

Edit* Strategic Discipline comes into play when you are using a stratagem within one of the six indicated colours.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:


I'm starting to see your confusion here.

That is strange, because I am not confused.

The gap between phases isn't hidden extra phases. You are quite right a turn is made of of those six phases. And a battle round is made up each player's turns.

The difference is there is a time gap between the phases that still happen. It just so happens that most of the time this time gap in instantaneous because rarely anything happens.

This is false, there is no gap that still happens all the time, Unless you have a citation saying otherwise.

But the gap does exist. Much like the space between atoms. Everything is made up of atoms so how can there be a gap of emptiness.

Prove it with a rules quote.

In the event things happen in these gaps i.e. stratagems that happen at the end of the turn or start of the turn (in that gap oblivion) then they do not adhere to strategic discipline as they are not "in a phase". Unless the stratagem discloses otherwise. i.e. once per battle etc.

That is the only time anything ever happens there, and they have a special exception to happen at that specific time.

Hang on? Are you agreeing that the answer to the Op's questions is that it can be used multiple times due to the exception granted?

Page 215 40k BRB wrote:Strategic Discipline
The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’.

If the strat happens ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’ then it can be used multiple times because the Strategic Discipline rules make an exemption for strats used at those times.

So, no, the OP can not use it more than once, since the OP was talking about a

raggagamer wrote:
...Necron Stratagem which happens “at the end of the turn”.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Page 215 40k BRB wrote:Strategic Discipline
The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’.

If the strat happens ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’ then it can be used multiple times because the Strategic Discipline rules make an exemption for strats used at those times.

So, no, the OP can not use it more than once, since the OP was talking about a

raggagamer wrote:
...Necron Stratagem which happens “at the end of the turn”.

Please refer to flow, you will see there is a time gap between the turn end and game end. Even a time gap between the turn end and battle round end. This gap is where this stratagem can be used. Stratagems can be used anywhere between the gold circles (unless otherwise dictated), certain stratagems dictate in which colours they can be used.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:


Please refer to flow

What page of the rules is that on?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:


Please refer to flow

What page of the rules is that on?

Let's try this another way.

The Red outline shows where stratagems can be used. Command re-roll and other such free ones.

The black online shows the turn. (which is made up of the 6 phases you love so much.

The green outline shows where this stratagem would be used.

The strategic disclipline only happens if you are using it in one of the colour coded boxes listsed:
Brown, Pink, Yellow, Red, Black and Cyan.

DeathReaper is clearly wrong. Once the movement phase begins, then it's too late to use a strategem that indicates "at the start of the turn". It's too late because at the start of the turn, is BEFORE the movement phase. Before the start of the turn is not a phase, it is a distinct time frame which begins between either the end of the previous players turn, or the start of the game. It ends when the movement phase begins. Otherwise it would be written "at the start of the movement phase".

But... as players, and (specifically as TOs) we need to consider what this does to our game. Does it break it? What strategems are now available to be done multiple times?

For necrons, Reclaim a Lost Empire can be applied multiple times to a single unit. Meaning that I can realistically add +5 to my saving throws, and +5 attacks per model if it doesn't move. Ones always fail, so it's got limited utility. Costly, but potentially hilarious, but hardly game breaking since the opponent doesn't have to shoot or charge the unit.

Enhanced Reanimation protocols can be applied to multiple units.

Enhanced invasion beams is a good example of why these things can stack.

Damage Control Override, could be applied to multiple DDAs. Hardly breaking, but potentially powerful.

Repair subroutines. Bring back wraiths from multiple units. Good, but not breaking.

Phaerons Will. Multiple Overlords can use MWBD.

So, are there strategems from other codices would break the game with this interpretation? I don't see Necrons having anything that will break the game. But I have a sneaking suspicion that we'll find some that simply make the game unplayable in other factions.

"Such as..." implies that these are not the only times when a Stratagem could be used outside of a Phase. As mentioned, the Necron Stratagem *could* have said "at the end of the Morale Phase", but instead it says "are the end of a turn". This also implies that GW sees these as distinct from one another. We already have FAQs in which GW has stated that the beginning of a turn is not the same as the beginning of the movement phase (quoted somewhere above). There is sufficient evidence that GW considers "beginning of a turn" and "end of a turn" to be separate from the Phase flow.

SeanDavid1991, What page of the rules is that on? Because I do not see that chart in the rules at all.

barontuman wrote:
DeathReaper is clearly wrong.

So you are going to ignore the rules quotes I posted that prove what I have been saying and call my quotes wrong anyway? Interesting.

Once the movement phase begins, then it's too late to use a strategem that indicates "at the start of the turn". It's too late because at the start of the turn, is BEFORE the movement phase. Before the start of the turn is not a phase, it is a distinct time frame which begins between either the end of the previous players turn, or the start of the game. It ends when the movement phase begins. Otherwise it would be written "at the start of the movement phase".

Can you show me a rules quote that says "Before the start of the turn is not a phase, it is a distinct time frame which begins between either the end of the previous players turn, or the start of the game. It ends when the movement phase begins."?

Because I can not find that in the rules at all.

But... as players, and (specifically as TOs) we need to consider what this does to our game. Does it break it? What strategems are now available to be done multiple times?

For necrons, Reclaim a Lost Empire can be applied multiple times to a single unit.

No it can not, as it happens at the end of your turn, there is no provision to use it multiple times, and Strategic Discipline rule only allows for Strats that are used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’, not for ones used at the end of your turn (Which is synonymous with the end of your morale phase).

Meaning that I can realistically add +5 to my saving throws, and +5 attacks per model if it doesn't move. Ones always fail, so it's got limited utility. Costly, but potentially hilarious, but hardly game breaking since the opponent doesn't have to shoot or charge the unit.

False as per the rules I posted.

Enhanced Reanimation protocols can be applied to multiple units.

No it can not, ERP is used at the beginning of your turn, so it is done at the start of the movement phase.

I do not know enough about the other abilities you posted, so I can not comment on those.