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I recently had a small discussion on reddit concerning a Necron Stratagem which happens “at the end of the turn”. A user told me, that I could in fact use this Strat more than once if I wanted to, since the matched play restriction states “a Strat can only be used once per PHASE”.

I see that RAW this is in fact true, but still can’t believe, that I would really be allowed to spend (in my case) 6 CP to bring my Serapteks Invuln up to a 2++ (from a 5++).

Does anyone know of an errrata concerning such cases? I found other threads that never went anywhere really. Some say “at the end ...” is not a thing, others state different cases where saves have been FAQd to not be able to get better than 3++ or 4++.

There is no clear RAW.

There are arguments for and against this interpretation, but honestly there simply isnt enough information in the game rules to say for absolute certain.

Until there is an FAQ, if ever, to clarify it you will have to discuss with your opponent before the game and come to an agreement.

RAW is clear. The six phases are listed in the core rules. Start and end of turn is not during a phase. A turn goes like this : Start of turn, movement phase, psychic phase, shooting phase, charge phase, fight phase, morale phase, end of turn. Thus you can play reclaim a lost empire as many times as you can pay for it with CP. BCB may come in and claim that the end of the morale phase is the end of the turn, but he hasnt provided a citation to back it up. If the end of the morale phase would be the same as end of turn GW wouldnt write end of turn, they would write end of morale phase.

This is technically allowed, but I think it is pretty clear that infinite stacking of invulnerable saves is not intentional.

Since it says “at the end of the turn” and not after the turn, but before the next turn begins, it is indeed still within a battle round and can only be used once.

There is no infinite stacking of inv. Stratagems cost CP, and those are finite. A natural roll of 1 always fails, so the best you can do is 2+ inv. Playing the stratagem on a unit with 5+ inv costs you 6CP. Also note that you must be within 3" of an objective marker or didnt move that turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Since it says “at the end of the turn” and not after the turn, but before the next turn begins, it is indeed still within a battle round and can only be used once.

Wrong. Stratagems are limited to once per phase, not once per battle round.

 p5freak wrote:
There is no infinite stacking of inv. Stratagems cost CP, and those are finite. A natural roll of 1 always fails, so the best you can do is 2+ inv. Playing the stratagem on a unit with 5+ inv costs you 6CP. Also note that you must be within 3" of an objective marker or didnt move that turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Since it says “at the end of the turn” and not after the turn, but before the next turn begins, it is indeed still within a battle round and can only be used once.

Wrong. Stratagems are limited to once per phase, not once per battle round.

Who said Stratagems are limited to once per battle round? I did not say that...

RAW this is fine and allowed.

Obviously use common sense. If your opponent is showing clear unhappiness about it, speak to them. If it ruins the game for them it's not a crucial mechanic maybe do it once like a phase.

 p5freak wrote:
RAW is clear.

I think your interpretation usually makes the most sense on this issue specifically, but it is certainly far from clear.

I also dont believe GW intended this to stack, not because end of turn must be in a phase, but because they forget their own rules nuances. But that is my hunch.

OP, just talk to your opponent. Either way you'll have to come to an amicable agreement, or have this whole debate every time you want to use the rule.

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
RAW is clear.

I think your interpretation usually makes the most sense on this issue specifically, but it is certainly far from clear.

I also dont believe GW intended this to stack, not because end of turn must be in a phase, but because they forget their own rules nuances. But that is my hunch.

OP, just talk to your opponent. Either way you'll have to come to an amicable agreement, or have this whole debate every time you want to use the rule.

It is clear. The phases are listed in the core rules. Anything else is not affected by the tactical reserves rule. GW could have simply changed the tactical reserves rule to every stratagem only once per turn. But they didnt. Reclaim a lost empire wasnt changed either, and there have been multiple FAQs since the release of the necron codex. So, its probably intended. I wouldnt mind if my opponent spends 6CP to increase the inv of a unit to 2+. Necrons dont swim in CP, and no necron unit is worth spending so many CPs on it. I would simply ignore it, and shoot everything else.

The Admech have an identical Stratagem (Acquisition at Any Cost) that was specifically FAQ'd to add "This stratagem can be used only once per turn". Until/unless Reclaim a Lost Empire gets a similar FAQ, RAW is pretty clear.

Mariongodspeed wrote:
The Admech have an identical Stratagem (Acquisition at Any Cost) that was specifically FAQ'd to add "This stratagem can be used only once per turn". Until/unless Reclaim a Lost Empire gets a similar FAQ, RAW is pretty clear.

Same happened to jury rigging, AM stratagem.

Yeah, while technically allowed, I'm pretty sure this will be FAQ'd at some point to be once per turn.

I'd go farther and say that the intention is probably that anything happening BEFORE the game really starts can be used multiple times. Anything that happens during the game is probably intended to be a once per phase (or per turn if specified as start or end of turn).

The end of the turn is the end of the morale phase. There is no magical in-between.

Citation? Someone mentioned above that it GW had meant "end of the Morale Phase" they would have said as such, and I got to agree there.

Is it implicit that two things are the same, or that two things are not the same? Or is it a matter of interpretation?

This is why this will never be resolved until an explicit and generalised FAQ.

 flandarz wrote:
Citation? Someone mentioned above that it GW had meant "end of the Morale Phase" they would have said as such, and I got to agree there.

This start and end of turn thing being the same as the start of movement or the end of the morale phase has come up in discussions before. His citation would be the Battle Round section on page one of the Battle Primer, where it says the battle round is a series of phases then lists the phases. It doesn't list end of turn or beginning of turn as something separate. That said, GW in FAQs has treated the start of a battle round as something different, and seems to have treated end of a turn and beginning of a turn as something different. I agree with Kriswall about GW's probable intention adn that this is something they just hadn't FAQ'd yet to be once per phase the way they have some of the other stratagems used at the start of a turn.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The end of the turn is the end of the morale phase. There is no magical in-between.

You said this many times, and you haven't provided any citation so far, to back it up.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The end of the turn is the end of the morale phase. There is no magical in-between.

You said this many times, and you haven't provided any citation so far, to back it up.

Neither have you, so it's pretty equal as it stands.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The end of the turn is the end of the morale phase. There is no magical in-between.

You said this many times, and you haven't provided any citation so far, to back it up.

Here is why, Page 2 40k Battle Primer " Once both players have completed a turn, the battle round has been completed"

So the end of the second player turn is the end of the battle round.

And as we all know "Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows..."

Therefore when Phase 1 starts, the turn starts, and when phase 6 ends that players turn ends.

Q: If both players have Stratagems or abilities that are used ‘at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins’ (for example, if both players use the Forward Operatives Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines), who resolves their abilities first?
A: Unless the rule in question says otherwise, the players roll off and, starting with the winner, alternate resolving such rules one at a time.

Given this FAQ answer, GW implicitly acknowledges a time between the beginning of a Battle Round and a Player Turn. That implies there is also such period between the beginning of a Player Turn and the beginning of the Movement Phase since a Battle Round is made up of two player turns while a Player Turn is made up of a number of Phases.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Therefore when Phase 1 starts, the turn starts, and when phase 6 ends that players turn ends.

Wrong. Phase 1, the movement phase, starts when you move your models. Check the movement phase rules. Before that, at the start of a players turn, a Necron player rolls for RP and does MWBD. Read the Necron rules before giving false information.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Therefore when Phase 1 starts, the turn starts, and when phase 6 ends that players turn ends.

Wrong. Phase 1, the movement phase, starts when you move your models. Check the movement phase rules. Before that, at the start of a players turn, a Necron player rolls for RP and does MWBD. Read the Necron rules before giving false information.

You can contest it all you want, the facts back up my position though.
The start of a players turn is the start of the movement phase, as it is the first thing listed, and numbered 1, and as such is the first thing that happens when the turn starts.

No. The first PHASE that happens is the Movement Phase. The first thing that happens is anything that happens at the beginning of the turn, which must happen before the beginning of the Movement Phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You can contest it all you want, the facts back up my position though.
The start of a players turn is the start of the movement phase, as it is the first thing listed, and numbered 1, and as such is the first thing that happens when the turn starts.

Wrong. Necrons use MWBD and roll for RP at the start of the turn, which is before the movement phase begins, before you move your models. If the start of the turn would be the same as start of movement phase, necron MWBD and RP rules would be written with start of movement phase, and not start of the turn. The same logic applies to the end of the turn. Reclaim a lost empire would say end of morale phase, instead of end of turn, if both would be the same. But they arent.

You may also wanna check the BRB pg. 215 strategic discipline. There are two examples which points of time in the game are not during a phase. Its before the battle begins, and end of battle round. There is more in a turn/round than just the six phases, otherwise GW wouldnt have given these two examples.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You can contest it all you want, the facts back up my position though.
The start of a players turn is the start of the movement phase, as it is the first thing listed, and numbered 1, and as such is the first thing that happens when the turn starts.

Wrong. Necrons use MWBD and roll for RP at the start of the turn, which is before the movement phase begins, before you move your models. If the start of the turn would be the same as start of movement phase, necron MWBD and RP rules would be written with start of movement phase, and not start of the turn. The same logic applies to the end of the turn. Reclaim a lost empire would say end of morale phase, instead of end of turn, if both would be the same. But they arent.

You may also wanna check the BRB pg. 215 strategic discipline. There are two examples which points of time in the game are not during a phase. Its before the battle begins, and end of battle round. There is more in a turn/round than just the six phases, otherwise GW wouldnt have given these two examples.

Stop ignoring the rules.

You said "There is more in a turn/round than just the six phases" but there is literally nothing in the BRB to back that up.

 alextroy wrote:
No. The first PHASE that happens is the Movement Phase. The first thing that happens is anything that happens at the beginning of the turn, which must happen before the beginning of the Movement Phase.

The turn starts at the start of the movement phase as well, since there is literally nothing listed before this.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Stop ignoring the rules.

You said "There is more in a turn/round than just the six phases" but there is literally nothing in the BRB to back that up.

You are ignoring the rules. There are literally two examples provided by GW in the BRB on pg. 215 strategic discipline when stratagems are not affected by the once per phase rule.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Stop ignoring the rules.

You said "There is more in a turn/round than just the six phases" but there is literally nothing in the BRB to back that up.

You are ignoring the rules. There are literally two examples provided by GW in the BRB on pg. 215 strategic discipline when stratagems are not affected by the once per phase rule.

It is like those are specific exceptions, and not a new phase fabricated out of thin air.

Page 2 of the Battle Primer wrote: Warhammer 40,000 is played in a series of battle rounds. During each battle round, both players have a turn.

So we know a battle round consists of 2 turns, one for each player.

Page 2 of the Battle Primer wrote:Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order.

So we know that a players turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. and then they list those 6 phases. That is all that a turn is comprised of.

There are no other phases outside of the 6 listed phases in a turn.

I have not seen anyone post any rules to say there are other phases, so there are not. There are of course special exceptions to play some strats, but that does not mean there is a magically created phase with no rules to back that up.

Wouldn't that also mean that Stratagems and Abilities that are worded without the Phase terminology would also be "specific exceptions"? Such as "at the end/beginning of the turn".

 DeathReaper wrote:

So we know that a players turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. and then they list those 6 phases. That is all that a turn is comprised of.

There are no other phases outside of the 6 listed phases in a turn.

I have never said that there more than 6 phases. But there are points of time in the game when its not during a phase, and those points in time are not limited by strategic discipline. Otherwise GW would not have mentioned those two examples. Until further clarification from GW, my opinion is that any stratagem that doesnt mention the name of a phase, is not limited by strategic discipline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
Wouldn't that also mean that Stratagems and Abilities that are worded without the Phase terminology would also be "specific exceptions"? Such as "at the end/beginning of the turn".

Yes, thats what i am saying all the time.