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2020/03/12 09:29:44
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
Definitely Yarrick. I am aware of Ragnar Blackmane, because I have been playing since 2nd edition, but Logan Grimnir is the character I associate more with Space Wolves. I don't read a lot of Black Library novels because they are mostly garbage, so my main insight into the background is the stuff published in game supplements.
Yarrick was in the intro campaign for 2nd edition when I started playing, and he was in the Third War for Armageddon supplement and associated material in White Dwarf. He has a much more memorable storyline than Ragnar Blackmane, who I know is an impetuous space wolf captain...that is not particularly unique.
So yeah, Ragnar is less known to me, although I know both characters.
I don't care about Ragnar beheading Ghaz. We Ork players have to remember we are only second class NPC players compared to Space Marines.
The response of 'both' is literally and definitively not an answer to the question posed. Look, an example;
'Was the coin toss heads or tails?'
'Both.'
'Kill me.'
Using an example of a binary question to illustrate a non-binary situation doesn't actually work.
A more apt example would be a photo finish between two horses in a race... Which of them won? Both did.
The questions asks which of the two people are more familiar with, initially without considering the possibility that people might be equally familiar with both. That doesn't mean that 'both' is an incorrect answer, it just means that the preset responses to the question did not adequately cover the possible options.
2020/03/12 09:41:25
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
If you disregard them as irrelevant to the question of which horse won, you'll never know.
The answer to that rhetorical question is 'none'. And, like in horse racing, the OP doesn't want to know and doesn't care. The question is which you know best. Pick one. Which horse won? Pick one.
2020/03/12 10:01:52
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
From a logical and statistical viewpoint, answering "both" is not the same as not answering.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/03/12 10:10:33
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
And, like in horse racing, the OP doesn't want to know and doesn't care.
Yes, because the OP was trying to make a specific point, and didn't actually think it through.
Asking a question and only accepting some of the possible answers is pointless.
Is the horse race thing supposed to be some sort of 'gotcha'?
You do realise that in all likelihood there would have been a true winner in all of those cases, whether by a hair, or an atom, but it couldn't be measured at the time?
This question is binary. If you truly can't decide between the two, don't vote, because that's your contribution to the question asked (none).
I'm genuinely amazed you're struggling with such a simple statistical rule.
2020/03/12 10:26:43
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
The response of 'both' is literally and definitively not an answer to the question posed. Look, an example;
'Was the coin toss heads or tails?'
'Both.'
'Kill me.'
Using an example of a binary question to illustrate a non-binary situation doesn't actually work.
It's also not a binary question - "edge" is an ignored third possibility, which depending on the coin can be significant enough to be allowed for in testing.
I believe Engligh pound coins - not sure if the current or old type, off the top of my head - are one example, ironically.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2020/03/12 10:27:58
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
JohnnyHell wrote:Wow. That added third option. Screams out the intent of the thread... and is just insulting to anyone who’d want to click it. Hilarious.
Yeah, honestly sounds a little passive-aggressive. Probably isn't, but it certainly comes across that way. You absolutely *can* be equally familiar - how about someone who doesn't know anything about either, or knows everything about both?
An Actual Englishman wrote: This question is binary. If you truly can't decide between the two, don't vote, because that's your contribution to the question asked (none).
It really isn't binary, and abstaining from voting provides less clarity and data - in this case, clearly settling some kind of rivalry between Yarrick and Blackmane. It's not a question with a binary outcome, especially seeing as there's even a "neither" option. Which, similarly, in the interest of data, should also be expressed (because otherwise, you couldn't tell if people just didn't look at the poll, or if they had an opinion, but you didn't provide place for it - which could even lead people to feeling forced into making a choice, skewing the results).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 10:29:31
They/them
2020/03/12 10:55:10
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
And, like in horse racing, the OP doesn't want to know and doesn't care.
Yes, because the OP was trying to make a specific point, and didn't actually think it through.
Asking a question and only accepting some of the possible answers is pointless.
Is the horse race thing supposed to be some sort of 'gotcha'?
You do realise that in all likelihood there would have been a true winner in all of those cases, whether by a hair, or an atom, but it couldn't be measured at the time?
This question is binary. If you truly can't decide between the two, don't vote, because that's your contribution to the question asked (none).
I'm genuinely amazed you're struggling with such a simple statistical rule.
Even though it doesn't seem to be the case, if the majority of the sample were equally familiar you're only querying a tiny minority of the potential responses which is a significant piece of data.
2020/03/12 11:34:51
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
They're both equally hugely well known characters to me. And certainly used to be a very common sight on the table before the game turned into a meta combo slug fest. Even if just using the models for generic characters.
They both have allot of very well known fluff.
And both have had books, though ragnar certainly got the most books by one of the better known writers.
Didn't vote as none of the 3 fit.
And it will depend on how long you've been involved.
The current generation of players have little to no interest in the lore. Only meta.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/12 11:48:39
2020/03/12 12:18:30
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
Regardless I voted Yarrick, Blackmane is somebody I just about remember from back in the day and when I see his mini I go "oh yeah". Lorewise Yarrick was an iconic 40k character for me personally.
Must be said that the reason for this could be as simple that he happened to feature in a couple of White Dwarfs that were around when I first started or something.
2020/03/12 12:24:11
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
Dai wrote: Well it seems this thread certainly has an agenda
Regardless I voted Yarrick, Blackmane is somebody I just about remember from back in the day and when I see his mini I go "oh yeah". Lorewise Yarrick was an iconic 40k character for me personally.
Must be said that the reason for this could be as simple that he happened to feature in a couple of White Dwarfs that were around when I first started or something.
The thread might as well read "who should have fought Ghaz" unless it's a genuine request for insight into how well known some characters are.
2020/03/12 14:06:28
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
Dai wrote: Well it seems this thread certainly has an agenda
Regardless I voted Yarrick, Blackmane is somebody I just about remember from back in the day and when I see his mini I go "oh yeah". Lorewise Yarrick was an iconic 40k character for me personally.
Must be said that the reason for this could be as simple that he happened to feature in a couple of White Dwarfs that were around when I first started or something.
The thread might as well read "who should have fought Ghaz" unless it's a genuine request for insight into how well known some characters are.
Have you read the OP? It literally states why the thread was created. If there is an agenda in this thread, the OP isn't the one pushing it.
TIL people don't know what binary means.
2020/03/12 14:12:41
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
Dai wrote: Well it seems this thread certainly has an agenda
Regardless I voted Yarrick, Blackmane is somebody I just about remember from back in the day and when I see his mini I go "oh yeah". Lorewise Yarrick was an iconic 40k character for me personally.
Must be said that the reason for this could be as simple that he happened to feature in a couple of White Dwarfs that were around when I first started or something.
The thread might as well read "who should have fought Ghaz" unless it's a genuine request for insight into how well known some characters are.
Have you read the OP? It literally states why the thread was created. If there is an agenda in this thread, the OP isn't the one pushing it.
TIL people don't know what binary means.
Yes, the OP opened the poll because:
I made an offhand comment of why didn't they pick a more well known character like Yarrick to fight Ghaz and, well, it started a pretty interesting discussion.
Also agreed it isn't the OP pushing the agenda directly, rather just funnelling issues form other threads inadvertently.
TIL that if you ignore all but 2 outcomes people consider something binary.
2020/03/12 14:43:40
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
I think it is important and different to have a both option [I would have voted both had the option been available at the time.]
If one was a nobody, and one was well known, then there might have been a case for the OP's agenda, but since they're both old and well established and well known characters, it doesn't actually really make a difference which one they used.
Anyway, back around to Ragnar Blackmane, a Primaris Blackmane was never really on my bucket list of things that I wanted. I would greatly have preferred a cool nobody/generic character model like Shadowspear or the DA guy from RoTD.
OTOH, I also see that Ragnar is A: the poster boy of the Space Wolves, B: a really old sculpt, and C: is generally well known, and as such is the ideal candidate for the box set, and if they had gone with a generic character, there would have been a general outcry like "why wasn't it Ragnar? He's so old! Why invent a new throwaway character for a line that has like 10 characters to have picked from!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 14:45:45
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2020/03/12 14:43:50
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
An Actual Englishman wrote:TIL people don't know what binary means.
TIL that apparently, if you only provide two answers and neglect to include other options, any question can count as "binary".
An Actual Englishman wrote:If a question has only 2 outcomes it is by definition a binary question, yes.
If you only put down two options for question that arguably needs three to four, it's a poor question, and a forced binary perspective.
It'd be like asking "what's your favourite food, pizza or cake?" - what if pizza or cake were neither someone's favourite? You either force them into giving an inaccurate answer, or you end up having a smaller sample size, reducing the validity of any study you were trying to conduct.
There absolutely are times for binary questions and answers, but this isn't it. A true binary would be "have you heard of Ragnar Blackmane before PA - yes or no?".
They/them
2020/03/12 15:15:39
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
Honestly my only complaint is that it's trying to pin another SM vs X dynamic more then anything else. Before it was IG/Yarrick, which feels.. annoying more then anything else that they've tried to shoehorn it in like this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 15:18:48
2020/03/12 15:35:34
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2020/03/12 15:43:54
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
The response of 'both' is literally and definitively not an answer to the question posed. Look, an example;
'Was the coin toss heads or tails?'
'Both.'
'Kill me.'
Using an example of a binary question to illustrate a non-binary situation doesn't actually work.
It's also not a binary question - "edge" is an ignored third possibility, which depending on the coin can be significant enough to be allowed for in testing.
I believe Engligh pound coins - not sure if the current or old type, off the top of my head - are one example, ironically.
If you flip a coin and catch it before placing said coin on the back of your hand?
Is it possible for it to land on it's edge without a purposeful attempt?
Cool story though.
ValentineGames wrote: I love how people are throwing binary around to TRY and look smart
Ah, the old Ad Hominems. Did you ever consider that "binary" was simply the best descriptor? Of course you didn't. Also, do you think the word 'binary' makes people look smart?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: TIL that apparently, if you only provide two answers and neglect to include other options, any question can count as "binary".
Absolutely, 100% correct.
An Actual Englishman wrote:If a question has only 2 outcomes it is by definition a binary question, yes.
If you only put down two options for question that arguably needs three to four, it's a poor question, and a forced binary perspective.
It'd be like asking "what's your favourite food, pizza or cake?" - what if pizza or cake were neither someone's favourite? You either force them into giving an inaccurate answer, or you end up having a smaller sample size, reducing the validity of any study you were trying to conduct.
There absolutely are times for binary questions and answers, but this isn't it. A true binary would be "have you heard of Ragnar Blackmane before PA - yes or no?".
Right - a binary question is one with only 2 outcomes. As the OP set our outcomes as either "Ragnar Blackmane" or "Commissar Yarrick" and had no others, it is, by definition a binary question.
As to whether it is a "poor question" or not, well that really depends on a number of things, the most important of which is probably; 'what was the poster trying to find out from his question?'
I suspect that the OP wanted to find out the following, given his statement here;
This is purely a "who is more well known" poll. So even if you've heard of both, vote for the one you feel you are more familiar with off the top of your head.
Now you may legitimately have the exact same amount of knowledge of both Ragnar and Yarrick, possibly. If that is truly the case and you answer with "both", do you actually help answer the OPs question of "who is more well known"? No, you don't. As interesting as the feedback is (is it?), it doesn't actually help answer what the OP was trying to ascertain. It has not answered the question and provides no useful information, as far as "who is more well known".
I suspect that the OP has created the poll in a binary way on purpose so that voters are forced to decide which they know more about, and hence actually answer the question he/she was asking. Therefore I'd say it's a perfectly fine question and it was fine without the option for "both".
Voss wrote: Yeah, this isn't a binary question. It is an open ended question: 'How little do you know about the 40k setting and characters?'
That's actually a pretty deep question and the pool of people who know very little about 40k is a lot bigger than I thought it was.
Again, by definition, it is a binary question. The OP hasn't asked; "how little do you know about the 40k setting and characters", they've asked; "who do you know more about - this guy, or this guy?" Two choices. Binary. Three choices would be trinary. So on and so forth.
Genuinely bizarre that people are struggling with such a simple concept.
2020/03/12 16:23:44
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
Well, if you asked me the series of questions about them you posed originally, I'd be more familiar with Yarrick
Signature weapon - Yarrick's got a claw
Signature battle/rivalry - Yarrick vs Ghazghkull at Armageddon
Describe them without describing their appearance or job - Obsessed, Fearless, Zealous but logical (i.e. understands enough about superstition to use the orks' superstitions about himself to his own advantage)
Ragnar
Signature weapon - it's like a chainsword. Also he's got wolfy pals
Signature battle/rivalry - no clue. IIRC his thing was drop pods?
Describe without appearance/job - young, impetuous, a little bezerk, shonen anime hero attack them head on type stuff.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/03/12 16:47:35
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
Sgt_Smudge wrote: TIL that apparently, if you only provide two answers and neglect to include other options, any question can count as "binary".
Absolutely, 100% correct.
Clearly not. Or are you actually saying that an open ended question suddenly magically becomes binary just because other options are removed?
In a poll asking for the participant's ethnicity, and it only provides two options, does that make ethnicity binary? Obviously not - it means the poll is garbage.
Right - a binary question is one with only 2 outcomes. As the OP set our outcomes as either "Ragnar Blackmane" or "Commissar Yarrick" and had no others, it is, by definition a binary question.
But it's a poorly written question, because the metric the OP is testing (familiarity) isn't a binary metric. It is completely possible to have equal familiarity (aka, no knowledge at all) to both, therefore necessitating at least a third option (neither).
The fact that OP uses an inherently non-binary metric to measure (familiarity) is why trying to measure it as a binary state simply doesn't work.
As to whether it is a "poor question" or not, well that really depends on a number of things, the most important of which is probably; 'what was the poster trying to find out from his question?'
I suspect that the OP wanted to find out the following, given his statement here;
This is purely a "who is more well known" poll. So even if you've heard of both, vote for the one you feel you are more familiar with off the top of your head.
Now you may legitimately have the exact same amount of knowledge of both Ragnar and Yarrick, possibly.
Users who have heard of neither, for example. What OP is doing there is essentially asking users to pick out of two unknown options, and using that random arbitrary knowledge to come to some kind of result: does that sound like a poll with high validity?
If that is truly the case and you answer with "both", do you actually help answer the OPs question of "who is more well known"? No, you don't.
But by not providing a "both" or "neither" option, participants will feel obliged to make a binary decision SIMPLY BECAUSE ONLY TWO OPTIONS ARE PROVIDED. It's a false binary - it's only "binary" because two options are provided, and that may influence participants into picking one arbitrarily, therefore skewing the data.
As interesting as the feedback is (is it?), it doesn't actually help answer what the OP was trying to ascertain. It has not answered the question and provides no useful information, as far as "who is more well known".
But by encouraging otherwise neutral participants into having to choose, that risks skewing potential data. It would remove nothing from the options to have a "both/neither" option which can then be discounted, if only to make sure that participants aren't being pressured into skewing their decision.
Anything else is calling the results into question.
I suspect that the OP has created the poll in a binary way on purpose so that voters are forced to decide which they know more about, and hence actually answer the question he/she was asking. Therefore I'd say it's a perfectly fine question and it was fine without the option for "both".
I absolutely agree it was made binary on purpose, but I think it was done to artificially inflate the votes on certain characters based on popularity, not on "familiarity". I don't think it's a stretch to notice how some users, ones who outright admit they know plenty about both, choose certain options simply because of that being the character they like more. And the OP outright admittance of "you might have equal knowledge", their choice not to create a third option, and the rather passive-aggressive wording of the now-third option seem to stand in support of the idea that it's a forced "binary" decision of an otherwise more nuanced and complicated question.
TL;DR - Information generated by this poll lack a great deal of validity for presenting a more complex question as a binary one, potentially with the intention of manipulating participant biases.
Again, by definition, it is a binary question. The OP hasn't asked; "how little do you know about the 40k setting and characters", they've asked; "who do you know more about - this guy, or this guy?" Two choices. Binary. Three choices would be trinary. So on and so forth.
Genuinely bizarre that people are struggling with such a simple concept.
I ask again - "what is your favourite food?", but I only provide options for cake or pizza - is that a binary question? No, because "favourite food" isn't a binary term. Just because I've provided two options doesn't suddenly make it binary, it means I've biased the data to either cake or pizza, and therefore any results of my poll lack validity.
They/them
2020/03/12 17:01:15
Subject: Who are you more familiar with, Commissar Yarrick or Ragnar Blackmane
The response of 'both' is literally and definitively not an answer to the question posed. Look, an example;
'Was the coin toss heads or tails?'
'Both.'
'Kill me.'
Using an example of a binary question to illustrate a non-binary situation doesn't actually work.
It's also not a binary question - "edge" is an ignored third possibility, which depending on the coin can be significant enough to be allowed for in testing.
I believe Engligh pound coins - not sure if the current or old type, off the top of my head - are one example, ironically.
If you flip a coin and catch it before placing said coin on the back of your hand?
Is it possible for it to land on it's edge without a purposeful attempt?
Cool story though.
If you're talking about a specific sort of coin toss, it is generally a good idea to specify that in your description. Many coin tosses - for example, to determine who might kick off a sporting event - won't be caught, but would use the floor/ground as the surface the coin lands upon.
If you do not provide sufficient specificity when setting out your poll, expect people to point out the flaws in it.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
