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Roberts84 wrote:
What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?

Well technically they have already fought in its vicinity and in other warped areas of the galaxy. As mentionned before, they are developping a Hive Fleet specifically designed to kill daemons and devour corrupted planets. Adapting and getting constantly stronger is pretty much what Tyranids are. The harder you beat them, the stronger they become. Also, as the Tyranid devour more and more worlds, the Gods of Chaos and other Warp entities get weaker. In all logic, should most of the galaxy be consumed by Tyranids, those Warp phenomenon would be weakened and ultimately disapear. The forces of Chaos can believably be defeated by two factions: Necrons and Tyranids.

 Andersp90 wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
The Orkz had some sort of device that interfered with the Hive Mind. If I remember correctly, the Mechanicus has it now and is trying to make it work. So I'd say the Necrons could probably figure out something similar.

I bet you the hive mind will figure out a counter.

From "the devastation of baal".

"Every machine and psychic ability the Imperium had geared towards detection, the lictor could evade. The hive mind had consumed far more advanced races than mankind. Infiltrating Baal was child’s play. There was no need for it to employ a fraction of its considerable talents."

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Necrons, really. Even if Tyranids 'won' and stripped the galaxy of life then moved on the Necrons would still be there. Heck some of them probably wouldn't even wake up!

The necrons will be trapped in their metal bodies for eternity if the tyranids pick the galaxy clean of life.

Typical Nids fan response. Nah! They will just evolve and become stronger than everything in the universe ever and not even Batman can beat them!

LOL. Yeah. OK Timmy.

What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?

Are you having a stroke?

I don't stroke over 40K. I get the impression you might occasionally. Those seductive Termagants..

Removed - Rule #1 please


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?

Well technically they have already fought in its vicinity and in other warped areas of the galaxy. As mentionned before, they are developping a Hive Fleet specifically designed to kill daemons and devour corrupted planets. Adapting and getting constantly stronger is pretty much what Tyranids are. The harder you beat them, the stronger they become. Also, as the Tyranid devour more and more worlds, the Gods of Chaos and other Warp entities get weaker. In all logic, should most of the galaxy be consumed by Tyranids, those Warp phenomenon would be weakened and ultimately disapear. The forces of Chaos can believably be defeated by two factions: Necrons and Tyranids.

Wrong. The Chaos Gods don't just get stronger through human action, it's any action. Every time a nid kills anything, or gives birth to anything, Khorne and Papa Nurgel get a power up.

Hence why I said earlier that Chaos is the strongest force in the Universe. Probably, anyway.

Roberts84 wrote:
It's ridiculous. Ask yourself; do you REALLY want the nids to be invincible?

Nope, and I have never claimed that they are.

Every time a nid kills anything, or gives birth to anything, Khorne and Papa Nurgel get a power up.

Nope.

From 6th edition:

"No blood was being spilled for Khorne, just putrid alien ichor. All of Nurgles diseases were ineffective in the face of Tyranid adaptation. The deadlock went on for days, and the Lord of Change K'rix'xi'kra blasted its way back to the Malestrom Cradle to abandon the effort. The two remaining Daemon Lords then led a final mad charge against the Tyranids. However the Hive Mind had by this point absorbed their opponents strategies, using Tyrannofexes and Trygons to meet them. The Daemonic lines soon collapsed, and as the Bloodthirster Hak'Vasha was dragged back into the Warp he was still wrestling with three Trygons."

All I'm seeing here are some people trying to apply logic to the 40k universe and others stating the lore as actual fact.

This is 40k, with logic and any lore GW decides to change thrown out the window, into a dumpster, and lit on fire for good measure.

Stop it.

Arcanis161 wrote:
All I'm seeing here are some people trying to apply logic to the 40k universe and others stating the lore as actual fact.

This is 40k, with logic and any lore GW decides to change thrown out the window, into a dumpster, and lit on fire for good measure.

Stop it.

The only solution is a duel at dawn! Everyone bring your best pewpew guns to the fight!




OR people can just debate lore and possibilities without childishly getting bent out of shape over it. I mean its not as if anything will change in the world from our discussion here. So just enjoy the lore and different perspectives.

Roberts84 wrote:
Ask yourself; do you REALLY want the nids to be invincible? Exactly how rewarding or interesting would that be?

That in my opinion is pretty much entire reason of being of the Tyranids in 40K. They are the great eraser. They come from beyond the galaxy, are older than any other race, are completely alien, do not give a single gak about their enemy. It's just food; it's not personnal. The entire 40K lore is a mythologised story of good against evil, of chaos against order. It's a conflict between heroes and villains and the multitude of sacrifices and shades of grey they all have to take. It's a tragedy of cosmic size and Tyranids are none of that. They are to 40K what the red curtain is to a tragedy. The thing that ends it and washes it all away into nothingness.

Wrong. The Chaos Gods don't just get stronger through human action, it's any action. Every time a nid kills anything, or gives birth to anything, Khorne and Papa Nurgel get a power up.

I disagree and it seems the fluff too. Tyranids don't have emotions. Gods of Chaos aren't powered by actions, they are powered by thoughts, feelings and desires (which generally lead to actions of course). What fuel Khorne is a desire for blood, destruction and combat not killing. Nurgle is powered by the fear of death, mortality and powerlessness. The Hive Mind does not feel, Tyranids do not fear. Their actions doesn't power the gods of Chaos because they are dispassionate.

 Andersp90 wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
It's ridiculous. Ask yourself; do you REALLY want the nids to be invincible?

Nope, and I have never claimed that they are.

Every time a nid kills anything, or gives birth to anything, Khorne and Papa Nurgel get a power up.

Nope.

From 6th edition:

"No blood was being spilled for Khorne, just putrid alien ichor. All of Nurgles diseases were ineffective in the face of Tyranid adaptation. The deadlock went on for days, and the Lord of Change K'rix'xi'kra blasted its way back to the Malestrom Cradle to abandon the effort. The two remaining Daemon Lords then led a final mad charge against the Tyranids. However the Hive Mind had by this point absorbed their opponents strategies, using Tyrannofexes and Trygons to meet them. The Daemonic lines soon collapsed, and as the Bloodthirster Hak'Vasha was dragged back into the Warp he was still wrestling with three Trygons."

Every act of killing or murder in the material universe gives Khorne power; the more senseless and destructive, the better.

Every. That is, all.

You keep pimping out the lore like it's coherent and makes any sense at all. It doesn't. In terms of logic it's an utter dog and pony show. It contradicts itself endlessly, and rarely even makes any sense at all. And it doesn't have to, because it's sci-fi. God knows what retcons and amendments will occur over the next year, let alone the next five years.

Roberts84 wrote:

In terms of logic it's an utter dog and pony show. It contradicts itself endlessly, and rarely even makes any sense at all. And it doesn't have to, because it's sci-fi. God knows what retcons and amendments will occur over the next year, let alone the next five years.

Roberts84 wrote:
The necrons have weapons that can instantly atomize planets. They can press a buton on a console and cause suns to supernova. If the Necrons were able to be unified under the silent king, it would be GG for the universe.

The Answer is Necrons. Definitely.

The lore is not the only thing to contradict itself it seems.

One should note that while Tyranids can potentially adapt to overcome any obstacle, they likely can't adapt to overcome ALL obstacles. Again, there's a give and take for Nids. Wanna be more resistant to attacks? You're gonna be a bit slower. Wanna be faster? Your carapace is gonna be a little thinner. Wanna do it all? You're gonna hafta use a lot of energy to power that body of yours.

There's a reason why most adaptations tend to be short-lived; the current Nid species have already evolved to be the best they can be (in terms of functionality and resource management) for what they do. When you start tacking on more stuff, things tend to slip in other areas.

In regards to "who would win", I suppose that depends on whether we're talking all Necrons vs a slow trickle of Nids, or whether all the Nids will be there too. And also on how the Necrons would fight. If I recall correctly, Necrons have weaponry which vaporizes its target. So, between the Necrons themselves providing no nutrition and the Nids losing the ability to "recoup their losses", it would be tough for the Nids to overcome a Necron stronghold of, say, a ring of life stripped systems around the rim of the galaxy.

Actually, I suppose the Crons could just do something like that wherever they wanted, and the Nids would consider getting inside to nom on any life they're defending to not be worth it.

 flandarz wrote:

There's a reason why most adaptations tend to be short-lived; the current Nid species have already evolved to be the best they can be.

That is not true. Its stated in the the codexes that the hive mind is constantly improving on existing "designs", and creating new organisms, using the genetic material being collected.

This is from "the devastation of baal".

epronovost wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?

Well technically they have already fought in its vicinity and in other warped areas of the galaxy. As mentionned before, they are developping a Hive Fleet specifically designed to kill daemons and devour corrupted planets. Adapting and getting constantly stronger is pretty much what Tyranids are. The harder you beat them, the stronger they become. Also, as the Tyranid devour more and more worlds, the Gods of Chaos and other Warp entities get weaker. In all logic, should most of the galaxy be consumed by Tyranids, those Warp phenomenon would be weakened and ultimately disapear. The forces of Chaos can believably be defeated by two factions: Necrons and Tyranids.

They die off but they get a really cool party beforehand. So it's a mixed bag for Chaos if the Nids eat everyone.

 Andersp90 wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:


Typical Nids fan response. Nah! They will just evolve and become stronger than everything in the universe ever and not even Batman can beat them!

LOL. Yeah. OK Timmy.

What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?

Are you having a stroke?

He's not wrong. Every one of the pro-nids arguments is esentially: "na unh! We have shields against (Insert lore here)" Every. Single. Time. We can "evolve". We can kill immortal races. No one knows how big our fleets are despite numerous hints by GW that the Zerg, ahem, excuse me, the Nids Don't have inexhaustable resources. They were defeated by Ultramar, and by several other battles. Decisively. Those defeats alone indicate 1.: They do not have infinite numbers as a checked box. and 2: They cannot outwit fixed fortifications, which strategically speaking To quote a genuis of war: "Are a monument to the stupidity of man" They do not possess this awesome force driving them. They are essentially slightly above Orks. and Orks can build and operate teleportation and warp devices. Also, If the books of Cain are anything to the actual lore, the Shadow can be blocked and interrupted.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:


Typical Nids fan response. Nah! They will just evolve and become stronger than everything in the universe ever and not even Batman can beat them!

LOL. Yeah. OK Timmy.

What Happens when the Nids hit the eye of Terror? What--shadow on the Warp?

Are you having a stroke?

He's not wrong. Every one of the pro-nids arguments is esentially: "na unh! We have shields against (Insert lore here)" Every. Single. Time. We can "evolve". We can kill immortal races. No one knows how big our fleets are despite numerous hints by GW that the Zerg, ahem, excuse me, the Nids Don't have inexhaustable resources. They were defeated by Ultramar, and by several other battles. Decisively. Those defeats alone indicate 1.: They do not have infinite numbers as a checked box. and 2: They cannot outwit fixed fortifications, which strategically speaking To quote a genuis of war: "Are a monument to the stupidity of man" They do not possess this awesome force driving them. They are essentially slightly above Orks. and Orks can build and operate teleportation and warp devices. Also, If the books of Cain are anything to the actual lore, the Shadow can be blocked and interrupted.

I know, right?

Remember that kid who always made up new rules and special abilities so that there was no way you could ever possibly beat them at said game?

Yeah, that kid grew up and became a Nids fan.

 Overread wrote:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
Pfft, Matt Ward had his fiction about the Necrons teaming up with Space Marines i forget which chapter to fight against the nids.

As panned as that was at the time, Necrons are now pretty much shown to be quite intelligent and "alive" for undead ghosts in machines. At least for the upper ranks in charge. Marines have also been shown to take xenos allies in the past - both Eldar and Orks have fought alongside Imperial forces (often against Tyranids). So its not "that bad" however it was hated at the time partly because it was wrapped up in GW making Necrons more than just a whole army of mindless Terminators (the film).

 CadianGateTroll wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
Pfft, Matt Ward had his fiction about the Necrons teaming up with Space Marines i forget which chapter to fight against the nids.

As panned as that was at the time, Necrons are now pretty much shown to be quite intelligent and "alive" for undead ghosts in machines. At least for the upper ranks in charge. Marines have also been shown to take xenos allies in the past - both Eldar and Orks have fought alongside Imperial forces (often against Tyranids). So its not "that bad" however it was hated at the time partly because it was wrapped up in GW making Necrons more than just a whole army of mindless Terminators (the film).

lol, yeah. I mean either Dante is really fething stupid and got rubed by Johnny tightlips or....well, the alternative is unthinkable. Both possibilities are bad.

 Andersp90 wrote:

 flandarz wrote:

There's a reason why most adaptations tend to be short-lived; the current Nid species have already evolved to be the best they can be.

That is not true. Its stated in the the codexes that the hive mind is constantly improving on existing "designs", and creating new organisms, using the genetic material being collected.

This is from "the devastation of baal".

Spoiler:

"More esoteric senses were equally well accounted for. Its electromagnetic profile was minimal. Its brain case was shielded by internal bone structures against energy leakage. The nerves in its body were similarly cloaked. Its hooves were shaped to make the minimum of vibration, and although it could not entirely stop the perturbation of the air made by its movements, its chitinous plates were fluted in precise molecular, fractal patterns to minimise its wake. It gave off no heat. It shed no cells unless damaged. Its psychic link with the hive mind was like spider silk, gossamer thin, strong, and almost impossible to detect.
More adaptations heaped on top of more. Unlike a natural organism, which loses certain gifts in favour of others as evolution pushes it down a particular path, the lictor’s advantages were retained, new gifts stacked atop the ­others."

Yeah, and that quote is terrible writing and worse biology.

If its even partially true, no lictor should ever be detected at all, and should never be out of synapse, and operating at some level above normal psychic communication (almost impossible to detect). Even in magic space fantasy land, the idea that you can stack infinite improvements on a biological organisms is just absurd. The physical and caloric requirements for that to work at all just aren't viable, and a closed biological system that gives off no heat and doesn't shed cells is just flatly impossible. And that's not even touching absurdities like 'precise but fractal.' Though really it falls down at 'sneaky hooves.' Nope. Hooved animals ain't quiet.

That makes Matt Ward and CS Goto fluff look like utter genius. Its a weirdly out of place masturbatory fantasy of an alien critter that just needs to be somewhat sneaky to get in a tunnel with an all-out war going on to distract the defenders.

I'd just like to point out that every faction in 40K has a "I win" argument in the Lore.

Chaos just mutates something
Imperium just throws more guard at them
Marines become even more plot armoured
Tyranids out-evolve them
Necrons unearth some massive superpowered weapon of ultimate doom from a forgotten temple
Tau spend a week in the garden shed and come out with an even more powerful weapon
Eldar work out some mysterious way to make one of the others do it for them using their trick
Dark Eldar do what the Eldar do, but then overtly stab their "ally" in the back and the front and the side for some fun
Orks just have a bigger WARGH!


Basically every faction has sufficient plot armour and reasoning to out evolve/develop/number/advance the others. That's why the Galaxy is trapped in an eternal stalemate of war. No one faction can get the edge on the others without the others getting the edge on them in return. Boarders shift; territories move; worlds are gained and lost; people live and die - the war remains eternal - Blessed is the Emperor.

The ultimate answer is of course the orks. No matter who wins, they get a better opponent to fight. If they won, then they won. If they die, then they died fighting so it doesn’t count. If they run away, then they’re still alive to fight again so they didn’t lose.

Remember the tag line is “There is only war”. By that logic, at the macro level the entire conflict is a stalemate for all parties, otherwise the conflict would conclude. No one can “win” because there would be a result that isn’t only war.

I will freely admit that SM's have the fluffiest of all the plot armors, followed by Orks, then Chaos. In my opinion.

That being said there are clear and evident logics that we can use: 1+1=2, or Necrons will always seek to eradicate all life. Sisters will always be ludicrously devoted and shouty, Adeptus Stupidous will always find a way to feth over the mission to find some lost forgotten archeotech. They are literally a Carbon copy of Weyland Yutani from the Aliens Franchise.

Using those known logic points we can verifiably predict.....absolutely nothing. GW's team of trained chimps at type writers will alaways lore break. Looking at you Primaris BS.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


He's not wrong. Every one of the pro-nids arguments is esentially: "na unh! We have shields against (Insert lore here)" Every. Single. Time. We can "evolve". We can kill immortal races.

Roberts84 wrote:

I know, right?

Remember that kid who always made up new rules and special abilities so that there was no way you could ever possibly beat them at said game?

Yeah, that kid grew up and became a Nids fan.

Are you two seriously saying that I am the unreasonable one here?

The OP asked if the the necrons could beat the tyranids. Does the lore state anything on this matter? Yes. If the necrons are to beat the tyranids, they will have to unite their forces under one flag.

Have I said who would win that fight? No, because I dont know.

Have you two? Yes!

Roberts84 wrote:


Uh-huh.

The necrons have weapons that can instantly atomize planets. They can press a buton on a console and cause suns to supernova. If the Necrons were able to be unified under the silent king, it would be GG for the universe.

The Answer is Necrons. Definitely.


Orks are as dangerous as Nids.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we stop with the "but my choice has shields against that" pedantic lore arguments? The lore can be changed at the literal drop of a hat by GW or Goto or whomever. For me it has to be Necrons. Apart from the obvious reasons, in the fluff there is no way for the nids to actually kill the necrons. They will just rebuild./reanimate. We know the necrons possess the ability to straitup CRTL ALT DELETE the Nids if they ever got around to it, why is anyones guess. Also, Intellect wins over Instinct every time. Nids are purely instinct driven, which means they can be controlled.

And I am clearly not the one who is making up the lore as I go...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
2: They cannot outwit fixed fortifications, which strategically speaking To quote a genuis of war: "Are a monument to the stupidity of man" They do not possess this awesome force driving them.

Codex tyranids 8th editon:

"THE FOLLY OF PRIDE

The supposedly impenetrable Iron Warriors fortress world of Forgefane falls to the Tyranids in less than a week."

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
They do not possess this awesome force driving them. They are essentially slightly above Orks. and Orks can build and operate teleportation and warp devices.

8th edition:

"At the rear of the Tyranid swarms, a hulking creature surveyed the carnage, observing the Blood Angels’ strategies, directing its lesser kin to counter their every move with a cunning born of aeons-long warfare. The Swarmlord, herald of the Hive Mind, had been spawned anew to ensure the Blood Angels’ demise."

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
We know the necrons possess the ability to straitup CRTL ALT DELETE the Nids if they ever got around to[ it.

They dont though. One dynasty has one device that can take out a star every few thousand years...




What this boils down to, is you two not having read the source material you are trying to discuss. It should be pretty evident by now..

Voss wrote:

If its even partially true, no lictor should ever be detected at all, and should never be out of synapse,

They are vangurad organims. They dont need the hive mind to guide them just like genestealers.

8th editon:

"The Lictor is a highly specialised development of the Tyranid Warrior bioform, specifically adapted to fill a scout role in the vanguard of the Tyranid advance. Lictors rove ahead of the main body of a swarm, seeking out pockets of resistance to be eradicated and native life forms to be absorbed."

Voss wrote:

the idea that you can stack infinite improvements on a biological organisms is just absurd.

Thats not what is stated in the quote. Its stated that the lictor can gain new attributes without losing out on prior abilities. But its not stated that this could go on forever.

Voss wrote:
The physical and caloric requirements for that to work at all just aren't viable, and a closed biological system that gives off no heat and doesn't shed cells is just flatly impossible. And that's not even touching absurdities like 'precise but fractal.' Though really it falls down at 'sneaky hooves.' Nope. Hooved animals ain't quiet.

It sounds silly because the lictor is a made up creature in the sci-fi universe called "warhammer 40000"..

Roberts84 wrote:


The fact that you post images of lore which emphatically describes them as unbeatable simply proves my point.

Which of my quotes claim them to be unbeatable?

So you want some Lore that hurts Nids chances?

The Only known C'tan god is the Voidragon, and he's currently at the Center of Mars. He is widely responible for the Men of Iron becomming Sentient and revolting, causing that whole mess? They had machines that literally bit a planet in half and could distort Space/time, or tear holes in the Warp. Yeah, that god, who's on the side of the Necrons. It's actually funny to me, every race has a God or Gods that protect and support them. Except for the Nids? Do they have religion or dieties? I assume that would be the Hive Mind?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, that god, who's on the side of the Necrons.

Really? The void dragon is still on the necrons side after they betrayed the c'tan and blew them up into shards?

Do you mind telling us where this is stated?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Do they have religion or dieties? I assume that would be the Hive Mind?

Tyranids don't have emotions nor superstitions so no dieties or religions. The Hive Mind pretty much fills the gap of Warp related power.

 Andersp90 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, that god, who's on the side of the Necrons.

Really? The void dragon is still on the necrons side after they betrayed the c'tan and blew them up into shards?

Do you mind telling us where this is stated?

Some Necrons function as though they were being commanded by CTan.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yeah, that god, who's on the side of the Necrons.

Really? The void dragon is still on the necrons side after they betrayed the c'tan and blew them up into shards?

Do you mind telling us where this is stated?

Some Necrons function as though they were being commanded by CTan.

They were never under the control of the c'tan in the newer lore, so that sounds a bit odd. Where is it mentioned?

I am hoping the newer lore gets re-retconned back to something more like the old lore.

 Andersp90 wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
Necrons. The necrons have the power to literally delete star systems and basically kind of just edit the Universe. They are OP.

The nids are overrated. Nids fans will squeal about how their true numbers cannot be resisted, but they also can't tell you how many there actually are and instead just expect you to believe their number is basically infinite on faith. They have been repelled by the Imperium, admittedly with heavy costs, many times by a few chapters, nothing like the combined force of the imperium.

That, and everything in the galaxy hates them, including chaos and the orks. If they truly do have enormous numbers, basically everything in the universe would fight them concomitantly.
My Money is on the Necrons.

Edit: Not a Necrons player.
Double edit: Chaos is probably the most potent force of destruction in the universe
Triple edit: Not a chaos player.

The silent king gak his metal pants when he saw the tyranid fleet when traveling beyond the galaxy. And he also knows that he has to reunite the entire necron race if they are to stand a chance.

Not because they threatened the Necrons but because they threaten the organic life that the necrons need if they’re gonna get back into organic bodies someday. Necrons easily beat Nids since attacking necron worlds would be a complete net loss for them since they can’t eat Necrons and the necron weapons atomise their targets so they can’t even eat their dead. Thats why they avoid tomb worlds unless they have to

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am hoping the newer lore gets re-retconned back to something more like the old lore.

I would like a mix of the old and the new. Bring back the c'tan and keep the necrons sentient. Having the nightbringer fighting the necrons (with his own army of mindless crons) to regain his lost/last shards would be interesting IMO.

Qyleterys wrote:


Not because they threatened the Necrons but because they threaten the organic life that the necrons need if they’re gonna get back into organic bodies someday. Necrons easily beat Nids since attacking necron worlds would be a complete net loss for them since they can’t eat Necrons and the necron weapons atomise their targets so they can’t even eat their dead. Thats why they avoid tomb worlds unless they have to

Please read through the thread before commenting.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am hoping the newer lore gets re-retconned back to something more like the old lore.

Personally I'd reset to oldcrons, add personality to higher ups like Lords and change some of the sillier bits like the Nightbringer inspiring fear of death in most races to more sensible things. Like using science magic to give the Nightbringer the appearance of whatever a species perceives as death like the Grim Reaper.