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I get killed by a model immediately fighting after I kill him, can I finish the rest of my attacks?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 vict0988 wrote:
Spoiler:
 doctortom wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Stop replying to the thread with stuff you're pulling out of nowhere. If you cannot provide a definition made by GW of what "removed from play" is don't invent it and say "models removed from play have no effect on the game unless their abilities say otherwise". If Guilliman's abilities can have effect because his abiltilities say they can, then why can a model not continue to make its attacks after being removed from play when GW tells me to continue making the attacks?



I'm not "pulling out of nowhere", I'm quoting rules from the Battle Primer, and frankly it's quite insulting for you to claim that. It makes it look like you haven't read the basic rules.

Gulliman's abilities can have an effect because he has a special exemption specifically stated on his sheet that it will happen. Your model does not have a specific ability on his sheet stating that he can continue attacking after he has been removed from play. In fact, you would need to provide a quotation that in general a model may use it's remaining attacks after being removed from play in order to do so. We have been told the model is removed from play, you have to have a rule that allows it to act as if it is in play after it has been removed. It's really up to you to provide the rules quote saying you can do it.



You call this:
[
Spoiler:
quote=doctortom 786655 10753483 837797a5e63469ae3364b91d45fe22f9.jpeg]
 vict0988 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Burden of proof is on you to demonstrate there’s a rule that allows you to do so...

This has turned into one of those “ OP asks a question > consensus established > OP ignores consensus and argues Reddit-logic until thread lock” type of threads.

I already did, read the thread. People have only been saying "well it's common knowledge that dead models don't get to do nuttin'"


Also from the "resolve attacks" section, from 5. Inflict Damage

"If a model's wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play"

Continuing attacks after removing it from play is as if it is not removed from play.

Linking that back with what I put earlier, about step 1. Hit roll... "Each time a model makes an attack, roll a dice"


There is model in play when you are trying to make those attacks, as it had been removed from play after being slain. You have to have a model in play to be able to have the model make attacks. If the model is dead, you have to show a special rule allowing the model to make attacks after it has been slain. Without such a rule, you aren't eligible to make the second set of attacks because there is no model in play to make the attacks. That's more than "common knowledge", that's an application of the rules.

[spoiler]Quoting the rulebook?


Yes I do, I have the relevant quotes in quotations, referencing where in the basic rules they came from. You might not like it, but they are rules quotations, and I think they point out why you can't do what you're insisting what you can.


 vict0988 wrote:
[ What you quoted had nothing to do with whether a model that has been removed from play can continue making its attacks, you quoted irrelevant parts of the attack sequence that say "each time a model", I highlighted the rules you invented, unless you can share some rules that actually say what you claim the rules say.


a) After saying "you call this...quoting the rulebook?" here you even say "what you quoted".
b) "When a model" is important. Models make attacks. The model isn't there, so what is making the attacks? It has no special rules about making or continuing attacks, so we must assume that GW means what it says when a model is "removed from play" - it's actually removed from play, and barring any special rules that you have not so far specified it does not affect game play on the board further


 vict0988 wrote:
[spoiler]What about models that are inside vehicles but that can still shoot.

"Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model Fell Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on."

So when my opponent rolls to hit I can ask them:

- "but good sir, what model is making the attack?"

- "the models inside as per the instruction of my ability"

- "but good sir, the rules for rolling to hit require for your model to be on the table, if it is not then you cannot refer to your model and the attacks are lost"

Explain to me how that is different than

- "but vict0988 how can your model make attacks when it has been removed from play?"

- "as per the instruction of resolving an attack after I have made all my attacks against one target I move on to the next"

- "but vict0988, the rules for rolling to hit require for your model to be on the table, if it is not then you cannot refer to your model and the attacks are lost"

Don't tell me it has anything to do with the model needing range or line of sight, I have already explained how this is irrelevant since it is done in a previous step. You can declare you will shoot with models inside open-topped transports but you cannot roll to hit, because while the rule allows you to shoot, it does not allow you to roll to hit even though your models are not on the table.


Okay, I won't tell you that. I will tell you that transports have a special rule Open-Topped which allows passengers inside to shoot. Once again it is a case of a special rule allowing this. Notice that passengers in vehicles without the open topped rule can not shoot from vehicles. Also, the embarked passengers are not on the board, but they are not "removed from play" after being slain the way casualties are. You need a special rule for casualties to continue doing something after death. Everything you've shown us is a special rule while being off the board or "when removed from play". The key characteristic here is that they are all special rules specifying these actions may be taken. Coming in and saying with the attitiude "nothing says I can't" (despite it being demonstrated) when it's a permissive ruleset and you have to show specific permission to take or continue actions after the model has been removed from play. If you don't have a special rule, for it, then it can't make any actions such as attacking after it has been removed from play, that's a part of what goes with being removed from play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/25 18:01:04


 
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Jackal90 wrote:
It’s been given specific rules that exempt it from standard steps, that’s the difference.

The ork that killed you also had a similar clause in its rules, allowing it to interrupt your sequence.

You have no rules that allow you to carry on fighting after being killed.




Edit: enough of the “where’s the rules that say that”
No rules say I don’t instantly win after deploying my army.
See how useless that view is?
This is why we use rules.

The rules explicitly allow me to split my attacks and roll to hit and to wound, whether the models are still on the table when the attacks are resolved is never mentioned, it's irrelevant unless YOU prove that it is relevant. You claim it is relevant that my model is on the table when I roll to hit, why is it relevant? Just like I would need to prove it is relevant that the units inside the transport are not on the table when they roll to hit, it isn't because the rules for rolling to hit and to wound do not care if the unit making the attacks are on the table, inside a transport or off the table. The thing that matters is that units cannot declare attacks if they are not on the table or they have a rule that allows them to declare attacks despite not being on the table.

The rules for winning the game are quite clear, I don't claim you cannot win the game if you have no models on the table because you need models to win, you don't. Older missions do award victory to you if you destroy all your opponent's models, but newer ones don't. So it's irrelevant whether you have models on the table when you check to see if you've gotten kingslayer and check to see who wins the game.

 JNAProductions wrote:

What part of the rulebook says this?
The part where it's a permissive ruleset, and therefore everything needs permission?

And what part of the rulebook says dice have to be numbered 1-6? Why can't I have a die with six 6s on it?

As I said, the rules for splitting attacks and rolling to hit allow me to roll to hit, what removes this allowance?

The tools of war section of the rulebook describes what dice to use.

 doctortom wrote:
a) After saying "you call this...quoting the rulebook?" here you even say "what you quoted".
b) "When a model" is important. Models make attacks. The model isn't there, so what is making the attacks? It has no special rules about making or continuing attacks, so we must assume that GW means what it says when a model is "removed from play" - it's actually removed from play, and barring any special rules that you have not so far specified it does not affect game play on the board further

a) You quoted something saying one thing, then you said a totally different thing, that's not how quotes work.
b) Just like models inside a transport isn't there. The rules say you have to be on the table when you declare your attack, not when you roll to hit.
 vict0988 wrote:
What about models that are inside vehicles but that can still shoot.

"Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model Fell Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on."

So when my opponent rolls to hit I can ask them:

- "but good sir, what model is making the attack?"

- "the models inside as per the instruction of my ability"

- "but good sir, the rules for rolling to hit require for your model to be on the table, if it is not then you cannot refer to your model and the attacks are lost"

Explain to me how that is different than

- "but vict0988 how can your model make attacks when it has been removed from play?"

- "as per the instruction of resolving an attack after I have made all my attacks against one target I move on to the next"

- "but vict0988, the rules for rolling to hit require for your model to be on the table, if it is not then you cannot refer to your model and the attacks are lost"

Don't tell me it has anything to do with the model needing range or line of sight, I have already explained how this is irrelevant since it is done in a previous step. You can declare you will shoot with models inside open-topped transports but you cannot roll to hit, because while the rule allows you to shoot, it does not allow you to roll to hit even though your models are not on the table.

Okay, I won't tell you that. I will tell you that transports have a special rule Open-Topped which allows passengers inside to shoot.

It allows them to shoot in the same way the rules allow me to attack. What is the difference? Neither model is on the table when you roll to hit, both models are allowed to attack when they declare their attacks. The rule for open-topped transports allow you to attack, not to roll to hit despite not being on the table.
Once again it is a case of a special rule allowing this. Notice that passengers in vehicles without the open topped rule can not shoot from vehicles. Also, the embarked passengers are not on the board, but they are not "removed from play" after being slain the way casualties are.

You need a special rule for casualties to continue doing something after death.

The rules for the game allow me to attack as well, I was within range when I declared my attacks and none of you have proven that models not on the table cannot interact with the table unless they have an ability saying otherwise, you're just pulling it out of a hat.
Everything you've shown us is a special rule while being off the board or "when removed from play". The key characteristic here is that they are all special rules specifying these actions may be taken.
Why would the rules say you can continue making your attacks even if your model is destroyed while making them when the rules never state you cannot. Why do you assume you cannot?
Coming in and saying with the attitiude "nothing says I can't" (despite it being demonstrated) when it's a permissive ruleset and you have to show specific permission to take or continue actions after the model has been removed from play. If you don't have a special rule, for it, then it can't make any actions such as attacking after it has been removed from play, that's a part of what goes with being removed from play.

The rules say I can, you tell me I cannot because of rules you made up. This "You need a special rule for casualties to continue doing something after death." is something you made up, this is not from the rules. Stop claiming you've displayed or proven or done anything but pull rules out of hats or god knows where.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2020/03/25 19:14:02


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I have proven it.
Dead models cannot fight in combat, it’s as simple as that.

A slain model and one inside a transport are very different.
One has rules allowing it to be an exception to normal rules.



For the love of all that is holy, read what is written and not what you decide it says.
I wasn’t talking about win conditions.
I was stating that I simply win by default as no rule says I can’t.
That’s the logic to your side of the debate.


Please show me where it states dead models can perform actions (other than being removed from the board)
And then show me where in the rules it states you have this exception.
To give you a hint, you can’t.






Edit: the part that prevents you from finishing attacks is rhe fact that the model is now a casualty and is removed from the board.
You have allocated hits, that is all.
You have not actually hit anything at this stage, you have simply said what you were going to hit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/25 18:47:30


 
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Jackal90 wrote:
I have proven it.
Dead models cannot fight in combat, it’s as simple as that.

Why? Models cannot declare attacks if they are not on the table, but nothing says they cannot finish attacks they have already declared. The rules assume that if you've declared your attacks you will finish them.
   
Made in gb
Brutal Butcher





 vict0988 wrote:
Jackal90 wrote:
I have proven it.
Dead models cannot fight in combat, it’s as simple as that.

Why? Models cannot declare attacks if they are not on the table, but nothing says they cannot finish attacks they have already declared. The rules assume that if you've declared your attacks you will finish them.


They cant attack if they're dead! That's all there is to this.

If you disagree for some reason, fine. But please move on and leave this. You are clearly convincing nobody of your position.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 vict0988 wrote:
Jackal90 wrote:
I have proven it.
Dead models cannot fight in combat, it’s as simple as that.

Why? Models cannot declare attacks if they are not on the table, but nothing says they cannot finish attacks they have already declared. The rules assume that if you've declared your attacks you will finish them.



“Nothing says I can’t”
Again, it’s permissive.
Show me where it states you can ignore multiple rules just to finish attacks.

It’s done in a sequence.
That sequence ends when it’s finished or broken.
The model being killed breaks that sequence.

The mode has no special permissions to stay fighting after it’s dead.


Now, show me in the rules where it states that your dead model can continue to fight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/25 19:30:10


 
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

On that note, there are multiple rule citations which reinforce that the attack sequence can end early. Including the attack sequence itself, actually, since if you fail to hit, you don't then go on to roll to Wound for that attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For that matter, how would you even attack at all? A model that's been removed from play has also had its WS removed from play. So, even if you roll those attacks, you cannot roll over a number that no longer exists in that game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/25 19:35:53


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 vict0988 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
...You need explicit permission to do ANYTHING if you're not on the table.

What part of the rulebook says this?

We can deduce from the rules that there are two states for models. These are "in play" and "removed from (out of) play".

In any game you need to be in play to have an effect, that is just how games work. Just like a D6 needs to be six sided and numbered from 1-6. Nothing in the rules states that dice need to be numbered 1-6 but that doesn't mean I can bring dice that have all 5's and 6's on them.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






 Stux wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Jackal90 wrote:
I have proven it.
Dead models cannot fight in combat, it’s as simple as that.

Why? Models cannot declare attacks if they are not on the table, but nothing says they cannot finish attacks they have already declared. The rules assume that if you've declared your attacks you will finish them.


They cant attack if they're dead! That's all there is to this.

If you disagree for some reason, fine. But please move on and leave this. You are clearly convincing nobody of your position.

Models get to finish any attacks they have already declared, it's in the rules for attacking with a unit that once you've finished with your attacks against one target you move on to the attacks against the next target. "They cant attack if they're dead!" you're just pulling rules out of your hat, you're clearly violating the rules of this forum. Go read them again, whether it is reasonable that models that are dead end their attack sequence doesn't matter if it's not in the rules and you cannot provide any rules source, but you keep. on. saying. the. same. thing, provide a rules source or stop posting. I am disagreeing because I don't appreciate you passing off your opinion as a rule. You can say "I have a feeling models should not be able to finish their attacks if they are dead", I can then say thanks and get out I can't use that to argue with my opponent in the case I'm using such a Stratagem against an enemy before they finish their attacks.

Jackal90 wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Jackal90 wrote:
I have proven it.
Dead models cannot fight in combat, it’s as simple as that.

Why? Models cannot declare attacks if they are not on the table, but nothing says they cannot finish attacks they have already declared. The rules assume that if you've declared your attacks you will finish them.



“Nothing says I can’t”
Again, it’s permissive.
Show me where it states you can ignore multiple rules just to finish attacks.

It’s done in a sequence.
That sequence ends when it’s finished or broken.
The model being killed breaks that sequence.

The mode has no special permissions to stay fighting after it’s dead.


Now, show me in the rules where it states that your dead model can continue to fight.

What rules am I ignoring? The one no one has posted yet that says that models removed from the table cannot do anything? Where is it?

I start my attack sequence, same as a unit inside transport that is allowed to attack despite being inside a transport, now my attack has started and 0 rules change that. Nothing in the rules tell me to stop the attack sequence, it doesn't matter what happens between me declaring my attacks and me moving on to the second unit, I get to complete all my attacks. That's what the rules say.

"3. Choose Targets
First, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. To target an enemy unit, the attacking model must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of another model from its own unit that is itself within 1" of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in two ranks. Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase."

I am within 1" of two units, I charged both units this turn I am able to attack them both.

"If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible target units as you wish. Similarly if a unit contains more than one model, each can target a different enemy unit. In either case, declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks before any dice are rolled, and resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next."

I make more than one attack, I split them 1/5. I resolve all attacks against the first target, I am destroyed, I move on to the next.

"1) Hit Roll
Each time a model makes an attack, roll a dice. If the roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model’s Ballistic Skill characteristic, then it scores a hit with the weapon it is using. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply."

My model isn't on the table, but neither are models inside an open-topped transport, so I refer to the model that made the attack, not necessarily a model on the table. You need to be on the table within 1" to declare attacks, but not to finish them.

"5) Inflict Damage
The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon used in the attack. A model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers. If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play. If a model loses several wounds from a single attack and is destroyed, any excess damage inflicted by that attack is lost and has no effect."

The inflict damage step doesn't mention anything about models being destroyed stopping any attack sequences that have already been started. Now where in the rules do you get to break the rules for the attack sequence, the rules very clearly let me do my attacks, what stops me?

 flandarz wrote:
On that note, there are multiple rule citations which reinforce that the attack sequence can end early. Including the attack sequence itself, actually, since if you fail to hit, you don't then go on to roll to Wound for that attack.

For that matter, how would you even attack at all? A model that's been removed from play has also had its WS removed from play. So, even if you roll those attacks, you cannot roll over a number that no longer exists in that game.

What rule tells me that the attack sequence ends early if the model isn't on the table or that my hit rolls automatically fail if my model isn't on the table, do models inside transports automatically fail their hit rolls? They can shoot, but can they hit?

No the WS has not been removed from play, the WS is whatever it is on the datasheet. The same way a model inside a transport that isn't on the table still gets to resolve its attacks.

 DeathReaper wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
...You need explicit permission to do ANYTHING if you're not on the table.

What part of the rulebook says this?

We can deduce from the rules that there are two states for models. These are "in play" and "removed from (out of) play".

In any game you need to be in play to have an effect, that is just how games work. Just like a D6 needs to be six sided and numbered from 1-6. Nothing in the rules states that dice need to be numbered 1-6 but that doesn't mean I can bring dice that have all 5's and 6's on them.

From which rules can we deduce this? I can deduce from the rules that I can finish my attack sequence unless a rule says otherwise.

Read the rules or at least read the thread, stop trolling.

"Tools of War
In order to fight a battle, you will require a tape measure and some dice.

Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model’s hull instead. You can measure distances whenever you wish.

Warhammer 40,000 uses six-sided dice, sometimes abbreviated to D6. Some rules refer to 2D6, 3D6 and so on – in such cases, roll that many D6s and add the results together. If a rule requires you to roll a D3, roll a dice and halve the total. When halving any dice roll, round fractions up before applying modifiers (if any) to the result. All modifiers are cumulative. If a rule requires a dice roll of, for example, 3 or more, this is often abbreviated to 3+."

Now, what was that about not knowing what type of dice to use? Get back under you bridge you don't own this bridge you don't get to ask me to pay a troll toll. You're just a filthy homeless troll and this bridge is owned by the devils, we're allowing you to stay here despite not knowing the rules or owning the bridge, don't go around saying the rules don't say which dice to use and ask for a troll toll. Well I crossed the bridge, I guess I'll just have to live with it being ambiguous. Maybe in 24 months GW will answer the question because none of you can quote anything relevant in FAQs or the rulebook about models being unable to do anything whilst not on the table, thanks to the people that legitimately tried to find the correct rules and less thanks to the people trolling about "woe is me what dice am I to use".
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 vict0988 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

We can deduce from the rules that there are two states for models. These are "in play" and "removed from (out of) play".

In any game you need to be in play to have an effect, that is just how games work. Just like a D6 needs to be six sided and numbered from 1-6. Nothing in the rules states that dice need to be numbered 1-6 but that doesn't mean I can bring dice that have all 5's and 6's on them.

From which rules can we deduce this? I can deduce from the rules that I can finish my attack sequence unless a rule says otherwise.
You cant, because things need to be in play to have an effect on the game. that is just how games work. Something that is out of play, by definition, can not have any effect on the game.

Read the rules or at least read the thread, stop trolling.
who has not read the rules or the thread? No one here is trolling, mate.
"Tools of War
In order to fight a battle, you will require a tape measure and some dice.

Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model’s hull instead. You can measure distances whenever you wish.

Warhammer 40,000 uses six-sided dice, sometimes abbreviated to D6. Some rules refer to 2D6, 3D6 and so on – in such cases, roll that many D6s and add the results together. If a rule requires you to roll a D3, roll a dice and halve the total. When halving any dice roll, round fractions up before applying modifiers (if any) to the result. All modifiers are cumulative. If a rule requires a dice roll of, for example, 3 or more, this is often abbreviated to 3+."

Now, what was that about not knowing what type of dice to use? Get back under you bridge you don't own this bridge you don't get to ask me to pay a troll toll. You're just a filthy homeless troll and this bridge is owned by the devils, we're allowing you to stay here despite not knowing the rules or owning the bridge, don't go around saying the rules don't say which dice to use and ask for a troll toll. Well I crossed the bridge, I guess I'll just have to live with it being ambiguous. Maybe in 24 months GW will answer the question because none of you can quote anything relevant in FAQs or the rulebook about models being unable to do anything whilst not on the table, thanks to the people that legitimately tried to find the correct rules and less thanks to the people trolling about "woe is me what dice am I to use".
Where in that quote does it say that "six-sided dice" or "D6" if you will, need to be numbered 1 through six on the sides?
You call me a troll, but I am not the one trolling, it seems you are not actually reading the rules you post.

You need to learn how games in general work.

First rule is that the rules are permissive. Second if they reference something like a D6 and do not explain what that means, we need to use the common definition of said thing (In this case a D6 is a fair die, which would be numbered 1 to 6 one number per side).

"The rules don't say I can't!"
This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you've been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false. The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





You keep telling people to show rules yet constantly fail to do so in your own posts.

The only rules you have quoted so far are in no way relevant to the discussion.
You quoted the basic attack sequence, completely missing the point that this isn’t a regular attack sequence as your model was reduced to 0 wounds.
Show me where in the rules it says a dead model can continue to fight.

So, you ask for rules and ignore those posted.
You fail to produce any rules that actually back your claim.
You call those who don’t agree with you a troll because you can’t counter an argument.

Show valid rules or just stop, and by valid rules, I mean ones that back your claim.
This does not mean post basic core rules that relate in no way to this debate.


Core rules state that when a model is reduced to 0 wounds it is removed.
It does not tell you to finish any actions before being removed.
It does not tell you that you can ignore this.
Your model has no rules to prevent this.
   
Made in gb
Brutal Butcher





 vict0988 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Jackal90 wrote:
I have proven it.
Dead models cannot fight in combat, it’s as simple as that.

Why? Models cannot declare attacks if they are not on the table, but nothing says they cannot finish attacks they have already declared. The rules assume that if you've declared your attacks you will finish them.


They cant attack if they're dead! That's all there is to this.

If you disagree for some reason, fine. But please move on and leave this. You are clearly convincing nobody of your position.

Models get to finish any attacks they have already declared, it's in the rules for attacking with a unit that once you've finished with your attacks against one target you move on to the attacks against the next target. "They cant attack if they're dead!" you're just pulling rules out of your hat, you're clearly violating the rules of this forum. Go read them again, whether it is reasonable that models that are dead end their attack sequence doesn't matter if it's not in the rules and you cannot provide any rules source, but you keep. on. saying. the. same. thing, provide a rules source or stop posting. I am disagreeing because I don't appreciate you passing off your opinion as a rule. You can say "I have a feeling models should not be able to finish their attacks if they are dead", I can then say thanks and get out I can't use that to argue with my opponent in the case I'm using such a Stratagem against an enemy before they finish their attacks.


It's not opinion, it's how the game works. Dead models cant make attacks. It's you passing off an opinion that declaring something means you are forced to do it, which is absurd.

The onus is on you to provide a rule that explicitly says a dead model can make attacks. Which you haven't.

If you cant get your head around that, you are playing a different game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/26 08:46:47


 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Hmm.... tricky....

The model was alive at the appropriate point to allocate and declare the attacks.... But is dead by the time the rolls are actually made...

What are peoples thoughts on the reverse situation of making attacks against a unit that is destroyed during the attack sequence?

Say a unit of 5 hellblasters each firing 2 shots on super charge against a single unit.

Luck is with the hellblasters, and after 5 shots the target is destroyed.

What happens to the remainining 5 declared shots?
Namely do you stop shotting (the target is dead) or do you have to make the attack rolls (as each shot could kill the firing model)?

Whilst a slightly different context the answer seems quite relevant.

From 1.6 Core Rules FAQ
Q: If one of my units shoots an enemy unit in which only one model is visible, and I resolve the attacks one at a time, slaying that model before I have resolved all of my unit’s attacks, what happens to the rest of the attacks – are they wasted? A: No. You determine the number of attacks the firing unit will make against the target unit before any of those attacks are made (i.e. before any hit rolls are made). If you are resolving these attacks one at a time and your opponent removes the only visible model as a casualty, you still continue to resolve the remainder of the firing unit’s attacks against that target.

The important bit is 'You determine the number of attacks the firing unit will make against the target unit before any of those attacks are made'. To me this would mean that unit of hellblaster must continue rolling for thier attacks until they've made all 10 even though their target is dead after 5. 10 Attacks were declared, therefor 10 to hit rolls must be made. In this case the results of those extra attack rolls are important not to determine if the attacks hits, but if the Hellblasters kill themselves.

This also supports the notion that when a model is killed by interupt abilities before all of their declared attacks have been resolved those declared attacks will still be resolved as they have been 'locked' when declared.

But is indeed tricky and given the number of interupt abilities out there some offical guidance would be useful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/26 09:14:49


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





While the above is indeed a similar type of situation, it’s still different enough to cause an issue.

Targeting dead models is the above issue.
This issue though is caused as a dead model is trying to fight.

It would be more akin to the helblasters trying to shoot if they had been killed before rolling to hit.
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

You cannot resolve attacks against something that isnt on the battlefield anymore, when it has been killed. Similar, you cant attack anymore when your attacking model has been removed from the battlefield. Consensus is that models not on the battlefield (anymore) cannot do anything, unless a special rule says otherwise. There is no rule or FAQ for this, its common sense that anything that is no longer in the game, cant do anything anymore.
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

You keep bringing up "models in a transport can shoot" like it's the normal way things go, instead of literally a special rule (called Open-Topped) that allows you to do something you normally cannot do.

As per the rules, datasheets are applied to models. If your model has been removed from play, then there is nothing for the datasheet to apply to. Therefore, you cannot use that datasheet.
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Indomitable Hellrider of Glorious Renown






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

Locked, as the question appears to be answered and it has devolved into the usual YMDC shenanigans.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/26 16:43:38


Be ash and cinder forevermore!



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