Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Karol wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Argive wrote:
If im going to get the rules for a codex I already bought. What am I getting for the subscription that not free already ?

crap I just realised something.. Its highly possible they will put FAQ's behind this paywall with this new model... that would be lunacy but its already lunacy what they are proposing.

I highly doubt they will restrict access to the FAQs. That would straight up murder any goodwill they have.

they already have CA which is paid for errata or patch update.

This old chestnut?

Also actually curious, did anyone expect GW to actually make the app not awful somehow?

I am not sure what this old chestnut means, as I assume it is not literal.

I think everyone expects a new app to have some sort of problems, not sure if it awful though. Awful in GW terms is something like the big box for eldar and dark eldar. The app seems to be standard GW stuff.

Good to see theyve picked an idea or two from the video games industry whilst farming out the IPs

Given im a chunky digitted luddite ill be sticking with my quill and ink

For the moment I would give GW the benefit of doubt that they had to settle on a limited set of features to get the app ready to be released alongside the new edition.

As long as it is not mandatory for anything it is hard for me to feel more than "let's try out the free stuff and put it aside if it's not worth it".

I can totally see big events putting the subscription to this app as a requirement for partecipating. It makes their life so much easier.

They can just shave off 5$ from the entry fee of the event and tell you to present a verified list and have the subscription running for the duration of the event, especially if they later intend to add objective tracking to the functions.

Unfortunately this smacks of the usual issues when you get outside software people to develope stuff for a niche market with perticular client's, (a 40k app is fairly niche and you know how much all 40k players love to complain).

The contractor is given the high level requirement, the softies go of and develope something that technically meets the requirement. However as they don't have any context around how it will be used they build something that is fundamentally flawed in the customers eyes as using it is so counter intuitive to how it needs to work contextually.

I worry that the price is high and will only get higher as the development costs will have probably been enough to build the app 5 tines over before we get a working product that anyone will actually feel is genuinely valuable in improving the playing experiance.

Like I dont get why some of the things the comunity has thrown out in like 24 hours haven't even been mentioned as possibly being features for the future.

Mission rules
Deployment maps
Objectives
Secondary choice

CP counter
Primary and secondary missions score recording
Built in dice app

NFC list swaps

The Newman wrote:
Actually, if the subscription cost gave you access to all the rules, all the codexes, all the errata, all the faqs, even then it wouldn't be a good deal. The minute you stop paying the subscription you lose access to the content. If you buy the books at least you have them for however long the paper and ink hold up.

Sorry I exalted because I misread.

To me, if for $4 I get a perfectly working and user friendly army builder, better than BattleScribe, plus access to all content be it index, codex, forgeworld or whatever, I'd do it.
It's still pricy because that means about $150 for one edition, but honestly I hate lugging around all that paper, it doesn't handle updates very well, etc.

But it would have to be actually usable, and not require purchasing any copy of anything on top of that.

An official app can do so much, that the few functions announced seem such a weak attempt at it.

Just immagine if the dice app had some of the functions of Roll20 macros. Now THAT would make games go faster.

Ice_can wrote:
Unfortunately this smacks of the usual issues when you get outside software people to develope stuff for a niche market with perticular client's, (a 40k app is fairly niche and you know how much all 40k players love to complain).

The contractor is given the high level requirement, the softies go of and develope something that technically meets the requirement. However as they don't have any context around how it will be used they build something that is fundamentally flawed in the customers eyes as using it is so counter intuitive to how it needs to work contextually.

I worry that the price is high and will only get higher as the development costs will have probably been enough to build the app 5 tines over before we get a working product that anyone will actually feel is genuinely valuable in improving the playing experiance.

Like I dont get why some of the things the comunity has thrown out in like 24 hours haven't even been mentioned as possibly being features for the future.

Mission rules
Deployment maps
Objectives
Secondary choice

CP counter
Primary and secondary missions score recording
Built in dice app

NFC list swaps

I refuse to believe a software company doesn't have at least one person with a passing connection to Warhammer.

 Sim-Life wrote:

I refuse to believe a software company doesn't have at least one person with a passing connection to Warhammer.

I would imagine they probably do, however unless they are in charge of the project most of these teams are led by muppets who won't listen to anyone even the paying customer (or atleast thats been my experiance the few times we have brought in outside contractors) its about minimum to meet the technical requirements and collect the money and ditch.

Ice_can wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

I refuse to believe a software company doesn't have at least one person with a passing connection to Warhammer.

I would imagine they probably do, however unless they are in charge of the project most of these teams are led by muppets who won't listen to anyone even the paying customer (or atleast thats been my experiance the few times we have brought in outside contractors) its about minimum to meet the technical requirements and collect the money and ditch.

Yeah, you need to try better outside contractors, like my company (shameless plug).

But it's true, most customers get what they deserve, and that's Accenture-type, sign here, lotsa $$, we don't give a gak if it doesn't work for you or suit the intended purpose, the contract has been completed have a nice day.

Ice_can wrote:
Unfortunately this smacks of the usual issues when you get outside software people to develope stuff for a niche market with perticular client's, (a 40k app is fairly niche and you know how much all 40k players love to complain).

The contractor is given the high level requirement, the softies go of and develope something that technically meets the requirement. However as they don't have any context around how it will be used they build something that is fundamentally flawed in the customers eyes as using it is so counter intuitive to how it needs to work contextually.

I worry that the price is high and will only get higher as the development costs will have probably been enough to build the app 5 tines over before we get a working product that anyone will actually feel is genuinely valuable in improving the playing experiance.

Like I dont get why some of the things the comunity has thrown out in like 24 hours haven't even been mentioned as possibly being features for the future.

Mission rules
Deployment maps
Objectives
Secondary choice

CP counter
Primary and secondary missions score recording
Built in dice app

NFC list swaps

So, being in both the software dev. industry and a 40k'er, I have questions that your post is a good jumping off point.
For reference I am asking because these are things I don't understand and would like answers too.

1 - There's this idea that the app is 'fundamentally flawed'. Could someone explain what the fundamental flaw of the app is, considering Azyr (the AoS app) and/or Battlescribe is on the market and both used and generally liked.
2 - The increase in price point/raising the subscription price? Where has this idea come from, or is it the same place as the 'but what if tournaments mandate it's use (when they don't do the same for Azyr)'?
3 - The community have given a list of features here that would be useful as gaming aids for a game in progress. Since GW have not announced they will be part of the app the assumption is that they wont be. Can someone explain why, when the same functionality isn't available in Azyr or Battlescribe, these unannounced features are a deal breaker?

I have a counter-point to 3 which is - them not announcing features like that list in no way means those features can't/wont be developed. Just you don't announce a feature to the public when it's not in a state to at least demo to the client (GW).

 BroodSpawn wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Unfortunately this smacks of the usual issues when you get outside software people to develope stuff for a niche market with perticular client's, (a 40k app is fairly niche and you know how much all 40k players love to complain).

The contractor is given the high level requirement, the softies go of and develope something that technically meets the requirement. However as they don't have any context around how it will be used they build something that is fundamentally flawed in the customers eyes as using it is so counter intuitive to how it needs to work contextually.

I worry that the price is high and will only get higher as the development costs will have probably been enough to build the app 5 tines over before we get a working product that anyone will actually feel is genuinely valuable in improving the playing experiance.

Like I dont get why some of the things the comunity has thrown out in like 24 hours haven't even been mentioned as possibly being features for the future.

Mission rules
Deployment maps
Objectives
Secondary choice

CP counter
Primary and secondary missions score recording
Built in dice app

NFC list swaps

So, being in both the software dev. industry and a 40k'er, I have questions that your post is a good jumping off point.
For reference I am asking because these are things I don't understand and would like answers too.

1 - There's this idea that the app is 'fundamentally flawed'. Could someone explain what the fundamental flaw of the app is, considering Azyr (the AoS app) and/or Battlescribe is on the market and both used and generally liked.
2 - The increase in price point/raising the subscription price? Where has this idea come from, or is it the same place as the 'but what if tournaments mandate it's use (when they don't do the same for Azyr)'?
3 - The community have given a list of features here that would be useful as gaming aids for a game in progress. Since GW have not announced they will be part of the app the assumption is that they wont be. Can someone explain why, when the same functionality isn't available in Azyr or Battlescribe, these unannounced features are a deal breaker?

I have a counter-point to 3 which is - them not announcing features like that list in no way means those features can't/wont be developed. Just you don't announce a feature to the public when it's not in a state to at least demo to the client (GW).

1) the army builder, list builder was Available on Launch day 11th of the month, now has been moved to a date of TBC

2) The AoS app is £.50 $1 a month, people are not sure what feature is justifying the 40k app being 8 times the price

3) it's more if those features where included the price would be less of an issue as it would be additional features to justify the cost.

 BroodSpawn wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Unfortunately this smacks of the usual issues when you get outside software people to develope stuff for a niche market with perticular client's, (a 40k app is fairly niche and you know how much all 40k players love to complain).

The contractor is given the high level requirement, the softies go of and develope something that technically meets the requirement. However as they don't have any context around how it will be used they build something that is fundamentally flawed in the customers eyes as using it is so counter intuitive to how it needs to work contextually.

I worry that the price is high and will only get higher as the development costs will have probably been enough to build the app 5 tines over before we get a working product that anyone will actually feel is genuinely valuable in improving the playing experiance.

Like I dont get why some of the things the comunity has thrown out in like 24 hours haven't even been mentioned as possibly being features for the future.

Mission rules
Deployment maps
Objectives
Secondary choice

CP counter
Primary and secondary missions score recording
Built in dice app

NFC list swaps

So, being in both the software dev. industry and a 40k'er, I have questions that your post is a good jumping off point.
For reference I am asking because these are things I don't understand and would like answers too.

1 - There's this idea that the app is 'fundamentally flawed'. Could someone explain what the fundamental flaw of the app is, considering Azyr (the AoS app) and/or Battlescribe is on the market and both used and generally liked.
2 - The increase in price point/raising the subscription price? Where has this idea come from, or is it the same place as the 'but what if tournaments mandate it's use (when they don't do the same for Azyr)'?
3 - The community have given a list of features here that would be useful as gaming aids for a game in progress. Since GW have not announced they will be part of the app the assumption is that they wont be. Can someone explain why, when the same functionality isn't available in Azyr or Battlescribe, these unannounced features are a deal breaker?

I have a counter-point to 3 which is - them not announcing features like that list in no way means those features can't/wont be developed. Just you don't announce a feature to the public when it's not in a state to at least demo to the client (GW).

I don’t personally think it’s fundamentally flawed, but kinda get the PoV from those who do. Does the product do what it needs to do? As it lacks core functionality at launch (the army builder) I can see people saying yes to this. I would only refer to a product as fundamentally flawed if it didn’t deliver. Which we won’t know until we have it in our hands. And as they did’t promise the army builder on launch, that’s less the app’s fault and more the management.

We like to borrow trouble from the future. Worrying over “What ifs”. What I (and others) don’t get is value for money from their subcription model. I’m paying how much a month and getting what for it? Right now it’s not required to get the app, but some worry that in the future it will be more required. And if becomes necessary to have to play the game, we will be stuck with the subscription which is overpriced.

I think some of the issues about the other features is a combination of wishlisting, and bemoaning a lost opportunity. The app could have all sorts of nice things to make it awesome. What we get is a bare-bones, feature light, overpriced program. If you ask yourself “What could they add to make it worth what they are charging for it” these features spring to mind. The AoS app gets a lot more slack because it’s subscription fee is a nominal one. Charge a quarter of the price for the 40k one, I’ll give it the same leeway.

(My opinions, I don’t speak for everyone here)

The full 8th being available on the app is clearly a way to cross the gap between now and when the app is going to have all the intended functions.

The current perceived value of the app is low, so they throw that in as a bonus.

Those 8th edition contents will lose value with time, and at the same time the app will gain new features.

Since I don't need those 8th edition books, I don't see a value in the subscription and so will wait until they offer me something interesting.

They still were forced to release the app, even if it is really light on content. There will never be a better moment to launch it than the start of the new edition.

For now they just need to make it so everyone makes an account and gets the free version. I think that we can all agree that we are doing it since... well free stuff is nice.
Once the players have this app installed, they can take their time in convincing you to subscribe.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 UncleJetMints wrote:
I'm so confused as to how GW can make an inferior version of something they already have (the AoS app), but then again 8th edition was just an inferior AoS so eh.

AoS Army Builder is rudimentary. The 40K version has to be magnitudes more complex.

Oh I know the army builder is different. I meant the rest of the app. I only carry my Ipad when playing AoS games. The unit data sheets are free and searchable on the main page of the app. Special faction rules are also there if you bought the battletomb through the app, battletomb are pretty easy to use and you can buy them cheaper through the app, that alone has gotten GW my money cause I pay half price to just own a codex for a friend's army so I can understand and search it's rules. The only subscription is Azyr....it is just so much better than what they are planning with the 40k one.

Here's hoping this app gives them the ammunition to go after Battlescribe - that nest of piracy needs to be purged.

What if you got 50% off all books if your an app subscriber?

mrFickle wrote:
What if you got 50% off all books if your an app subscriber?

That's still a problem cause you get that in AoS without subscribing. Literally all they had to do to make this a success was copy the AoS one, but with a 40k army builder.

I'm a bit disappointed. Not ill-disposed towards GW, but there is currently no reason for me to pay for the full version; I only play one faction/codex, and I have the PDFs I need.

mrFickle wrote:
What if you got 50% off all books if your an app subscriber?

It would still mean I'd have to pay much more than right now. The subscription alone costs me more than all the books I bought in 8th combined.

 Dysartes wrote:
Here's hoping this app gives them the ammunition to go after Battlescribe - that nest of piracy needs to be purged.

Yeah! 40k should be exclusive to the people who can afford it!

Also I don't think GW can do anything about Battlescribe. The app itself contains no data for armies, they would have to go after whoever makes the data files for it and that's a community thing and basically anonymous so good luck with that.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Yeah! 40k should be exclusive to the people who can afford it!

While I agree that GW is unlikely to go after Battlescribe, 40k is exclusive to who can afford it, that's how capitalism work.

I'm surprised at how negative a lot of the community is about this app. For a couple of bucks a month I get to digitize my paper books and able to quickly reference rules. I know that this was technically possible with Battlescribe but
1. There were ads
2. If you didn't want ads you had to give your credit card info to a guy whos app is essentially piracy
3. Battlescribe was never seen as "official" so you always had to reference the book anyway
Obviously, if it doesn't work well I can always go back to battlescribe or full paper/books. But honestly paying a couple of bucks a month to compile all my rules down onto an official app seems like good value to me. As long as the layout is smooth and intuitive ill be paying for the subscription. I do hope they have a free trial period to try out all the features

 Tyran wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Yeah! 40k should be exclusive to the people who can afford it!

While I agree that GW is unlikely to go after Battlescribe, 40k is exclusive to who can afford it, that's capitalism work.

Tell that to these people who think they should be able to play 40k whilst wearing an eye-patch and a peg-leg, with a parrot sat on their shoulder...

 Dysartes wrote:

Tell that to these people who think they should be able to play 40k whilst wearing an eye-patch and a peg-leg, with a parrot sat on their shoulder...

Yes, but only if they also sing the SpongeBob intro song.

I never thought BattleScribe was that good. If the GW army builder is really intuitive and helps you understand the various options for constructing your army then it could by worth the money if you are a seriously attempting to digitise the paper elements of your army.

I still just do not like the fact that I Willis be paying a subscription fee to GW and to get all the available rules for my army I need to buy a codex, vigilus and 2 PA books. This is what they need to sort out. But if they gave you all that then they have taken a massive dump on people who have been buying all the PA books

If they want to charge a monthly subscription then there needs to be monthly pay off thats worth the cost.

A digital copy of the codex with purchase is good and part of the free app. Great. Im signed up. Are those files being updated with faqs and such? No? Then they stop being usful 2 weeks after release when the inevitable faq errata releases.

Battlescribe is free. Their army builder shouldnt be behind a paywall.

Whats the giving me that i cant get anywhere else for less?

mrFickle wrote:
What if you got 50% off all books if your an app subscriber?

How? Most stores would tell you to go feth yourself. Why should they take a loss because you signed up for a service 5 minutes before you walked in a store?

I think that Battlescribe, once you get used to the quirks, is brilliant. But I'm someone who enjoys tinkering with lists, and hate doing so with quill and parchment.