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ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

aphyon wrote:smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

you do realize the entire point of the lore is to get you to buy miniatures? cuz, that's how it works.

It worked differently and it worked well for 25 years prior to 8th and it's sweeping changes.

Well that might be your impression of it....

Lore pushed models, sure. But the way lore pushed models was a bit different, shall we say. The biggest upset was arguably the Necron 3rd edition lore, which altered some portions of Eldar back story but changed nothing on the galactic map. The Eye of Terror stayed put, etc. Lore was mostly expanded, but not advanced.

Primarch awakening, Great Rift, Primaris replacements to the traditional Marines. That's quite different. There's a lot more advancement to sell models, rather than expansion.

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

aphyon wrote:smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

you do realize the entire point of the lore is to get you to buy miniatures? cuz, that's how it works.

It worked differently and it worked well for 25 years prior to 8th and it's sweeping changes.

Well that might be your impression of it....

RTB-01 were pushed by RT so from the beginning, lore has pushed models. some forget that, Pepperidge Farm remembers. How about all the "oh it's been here the whole time, juuuuusssssttttt out of frame", flyers. centurions, etc.

Racerguy180 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

aphyon wrote:smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

you do realize the entire point of the lore is to get you to buy miniatures? cuz, that's how it works.

It worked differently and it worked well for 25 years prior to 8th and it's sweeping changes.

Well that might be your impression of it....

RTB-01 were pushed by RT so from the beginning, lore has pushed models. some forget that, Pepperidge Farm remembers. How about all the "oh it's been here the whole time, juuuuusssssttttt out of frame", flyers. centurions, etc.

Sure, but that falls under the "expanding" banner, rather than the "advancement" one.

Insectum7 wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

This.

I'm basically ignoring M42 lore these days.

You're more than welcome to! Enjoy 40k how you like, and all that jazz.

But when someone points out how it all fits together, how the actual facts aren't accurate at all to what you're describing, just know that your grounds are essentially "nuh uh, I'm not listening".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

This.

I'm basically ignoring M42 lore these days.

You're more than welcome to! Enjoy 40k how you like, and all that jazz.

But when someone points out how it all fits together, how the actual facts aren't accurate at all to what you're describing, just know that your grounds are essentially "nuh uh, I'm not listening".

One can also take in that information, and explain why they think it sucks too. That's been done too.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

This.

I'm basically ignoring M42 lore these days.

You're more than welcome to! Enjoy 40k how you like, and all that jazz.

But when someone points out how it all fits together, how the actual facts aren't accurate at all to what you're describing, just know that your grounds are essentially "nuh uh, I'm not listening".

One can also take in that information, and explain why they think it sucks too. That's been done too.

Absolutely. But they ought to be consistent too. And for a great many people, it's rather clear that there's a good deal of unawareness on the actual details, and that their information is pretty badly out of date. Which is fine - but don't expect not to be corrected if it gets brought up.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

aphyon wrote:smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

you do realize the entire point of the lore is to get you to buy miniatures? cuz, that's how it works.

It worked differently and it worked well for 25 years prior to 8th and it's sweeping changes.

Well that might be your impression of it....

RTB-01 were pushed by RT so from the beginning, lore has pushed models. some forget that, Pepperidge Farm remembers. How about all the "oh it's been here the whole time, juuuuusssssttttt out of frame", flyers. centurions, etc.

Sure, but that falls under the "expanding" banner, rather than the "advancement" one.

Squats being squatted = Advancement
Necrons not being chaos androids = Advancement
Tau being introduced = Advancement

so I'm gonna assume you ignore that lore as well?

Racerguy180 wrote:
. . .
Squats being squatted = Advancement
Necrons not being chaos androids = Advancement
Tau being introduced = Advancement

so I'm gonna assume you ignore that lore as well?

Arguably Tau was expansion, and Chaos Androids could have been completely separate from Necrons, keeping Necrons as expansion as well. Necrons are certainly more expansion than advancement.

The removal of Squats was very much the opposite of "changing lore to sell models."

Either way, none of those is nearly as central to the setting as The Great Rift, a Primarch reborn, and Primaris.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
. . .
Squats being squatted = Advancement
Necrons not being chaos androids = Advancement
Tau being introduced = Advancement

so I'm gonna assume you ignore that lore as well?

Arguably Tau was expansion, and Chaos Androids could have been completely separate from Necrons, keeping Necrons as expansion as well. Necrons are certainly more expansion than advancement.

The removal of Squats was very much the opposite of "changing lore to sell models."

Either way, none of those is nearly as central to the setting as The Great Rift, a Primarch reborn, and Primaris.

Army wise Necrons are an expansion, but with the change to the lore they were most certainly an advancement.

I still play my RT marines, and they ride in an original rhino, the ones with the hand flamers don't see the field much, and the only heavy weapon they have is a missile launcher (it was all that came in the kit).

I am really glad about the new blast rules, means my banana launchers have a use again.

I retrofitted them with some other heavy weapons so I could have more options.

My original assault marines just have bolt pistols, the new ones have chainswords!

Amazing what changes in 30 years!

Alongside those little red guys I now run some bigger red guys, with more wounds, and better weapons, and I have no qualms about it.

I am very glad I don't have many of the marines that came in between RT and primaris, cause they are mostly plug ugly IMHO.

Of course.

1) why wouldn't I?

2) I paid good money for those

3) I like these models

4) I like this army

5) ....

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
. . .
Squats being squatted = Advancement
Necrons not being chaos androids = Advancement
Tau being introduced = Advancement

so I'm gonna assume you ignore that lore as well?

Arguably Tau was expansion, and Chaos Androids could have been completely separate from Necrons, keeping Necrons as expansion as well. Necrons are certainly more expansion than advancement.

Oh, so you missed the coming of the Necrons in late 2e? That was advancement. The story advanced. Slightly. A new enemy was discovered.
Then came the Tau. The story advanced & more new enemies were discovered.
And before the Necrons? It was the Tyranids.

Guess what? Each time they made some new models & wrote up some lore to go with them.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Either way, none of those is nearly as central to the setting as The Great Rift, a Primarch reborn, and Primaris.

All I see is business as usual. New models get made & some {crappy} lore accompanies them.

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
. . .
Squats being squatted = Advancement
Necrons not being chaos androids = Advancement
Tau being introduced = Advancement

so I'm gonna assume you ignore that lore as well?

Arguably Tau was expansion, and Chaos Androids could have been completely separate from Necrons, keeping Necrons as expansion as well. Necrons are certainly more expansion than advancement.

Oh, so you missed the coming of the Necrons in late 2e? That was advancement. The story advanced. Slightly. A new enemy was discovered.
Then came the Tau. The story advanced & more new enemies were discovered.
And before the Necrons? It was the Tyranids.

Guess what? Each time they made some new models & wrote up some lore to go with them.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Either way, none of those is nearly as central to the setting as The Great Rift, a Primarch reborn, and Primaris.

All I see is business as usual. New models get made & some {crappy} lore accompanies them.

Galactic map changes, Primarch comes back to life, and core/most popular army being replaced is "business as usual" huh? Ok.

7 i think the disconnect in "moving the story forward" is the change in attitude of the game designers.

They always want to sell more minis, that's how they make their money. before when they were building the hard cannon for the universe in 3rd ed the models were driven by the lore. now the focus is reversed and the models drive the lore-
IE we have to find a way to sell these new kits and justify it in the story.

At first the new lore says Cawl fixed every legions flaws and his new "better than the emperor made" marines (including the traitor legions apparently) were literally nothing more than generic ultras with different paint schemes. this of course breaks the lore reason to play a specific faction so they started putting back in the flaws. when they figured out the original explanation of how Cawl pulled it off was incredibly weak and inconsistent they started making new books to retcon the lore almost immediately.

The idea that the various first founding chapters might be more accepting if they did the marine transition primaris style instead of old style themselves. seems like a good argument until you understand lore wise that doing it new style in of itself is heresy against the emperors designs.

Rather you like the look of the new kit or not(i do but that's because i like the MKIV maximus suits) GW is pushing everybody to switch over in a slow deliberate less painful push that doesn't require a full army re-buy immediately. eventually everything pre-primaris will be replaced by a new unit that does the same job but better. any current benefit will disappear when those new units get released and the originals will inevitably get squatted.

I only run regular marines and they do quite well. Normally go for jump Chapter Master, jump Master of Sanctity, Emperor's Champion, 3 MSU plas/combi-plas Crusader Squads, 5 LC Vanguard Vets (no jump pack) and 5 TH/SS Termies, then mount them all up in Land Raiders/Crusaders/Rhinos/Lazorbacks, with Termies in deep strike. Works well with the progression of combat doctrines and is pretty mobile, and a Crusader Helm on the Chapter Master combines with Fervent Acclamation on the MoS means everyone gets reroll to hits pretty much everywhere they go, plus can put the LC vets in Assault Doctrine early if needed. Also Divine Protection 5+ FNP Land Raiders are pretty tough.

If they ever squat regular marines I'll probably just play them as CSM. I don't like most of the Primaris designs and won't be complicit in phasing out my own models. I've never minded marines being a bit on the small side and prefer it immensely to everything becoming so much larger than before; scale creep has always been a thing but it was gradual and in smaller increments.

ccs wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
. . .
Squats being squatted = Advancement
Necrons not being chaos androids = Advancement
Tau being introduced = Advancement

so I'm gonna assume you ignore that lore as well?

Arguably Tau was expansion, and Chaos Androids could have been completely separate from Necrons, keeping Necrons as expansion as well. Necrons are certainly more expansion than advancement.

Oh, so you missed the coming of the Necrons in late 2e? That was advancement. The story advanced. Slightly. A new enemy was discovered.
Then came the Tau. The story advanced & more new enemies were discovered.
And before the Necrons? It was the Tyranids.

Guess what? Each time they made some new models & wrote up some lore to go with them.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Either way, none of those is nearly as central to the setting as The Great Rift, a Primarch reborn, and Primaris.

All I see is business as usual. New models get made & some {crappy} lore accompanies them.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Galactic map changes, Primarch comes back to life, and core/most popular army being replaced is "business as usual" huh? Ok.

Yep.

Galactic map re-drawn?
I honestly don't care. The only maps I've ever been concerned about 40kwise are the ones represented on the gaming tables. Oh sure, I have a passing knowledge of the galactic map. But as I've never played any grand tactical BFG style game where I needed to know where planets xyz etc are I've not worried about it. This lack of caring has never yet influenced a minis purchase. Nor has it ever influenced an actual game.

Primarchs coming back & getting rules/minis? A whole new line of SM minis?
Yep, business as usual. New minis are always accompanied by new lore. It doesn't matter to me if they sculpt the mini first & then write the lore, or if they sit down and write out a master plan for the story & then make the minis. The results the same. New minis arrive.
I look at the minis (and some times their rules).
If I like the minis? I buy & use them. If I don't? Well, better luck next time GW.
But the lore GW attaches to them? I don't really care. I haven't cared for a long time (around 4th I think). And that's never stopped me from enjoying the game.
The lore that does matter, to me? Comes from the games I've played. You might say I've been doing Crusade since the closing days of RT.

Oh, and as for the Primaris replacing the oldmarines? Ain't happened yet. (though it looks like this is the edition where I finally lose access to my las/plas razorback turrets).

All well and good, but you not caring about a thing happening is quite different than the thing itself happening or not.

Well if someone is person who cares about the game and not some secondary thing like lore, then the changes don't really matter much.

What is the difference between a model being called this or that way. I am sure people use local slang to describe stuff anyway.

Tycho wrote:
The original list I made at the start of 8th still gets brought out now and again. Vanguard, Lord Executioner, Chaplain w/jump pack, assault marines, a ton of scouts, two tac squads with dreadnaughts each in it's own Storm Raven.

It's my "40k" version of a Long Range Recon Patrol from Vietnam. The idea was the scouts and jump troops were on patrol and called in the support in the airborne troops from the ravens. It ... is not a good list, but it is fun!

I kind of like it actually.

So, to answer the OPs original question, I'm thinking that with the upcoming marine chages, grey hunters are going to likely become the "Best troop choice" for space wolves. assuming they pay an extra point for their chainswords you're looking at intercessors that give up their point of AP for the ability to take special weapons

Short answer is yes.

Longer answer:

I cant stand the Primaris models and refuse to use them. I have my Crimson Fists, and a home made chapter that I am collecting, mainly second hand, and want nothing else from the SM list unless it is from the old line of miniatures. It is old school miniatures for me.

40K is turning into how Fantasy is working for me. Every year GW pushed me away as a customer with the new models that are ugly as hell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Banzaimash wrote:
I only run regular marines and they do quite well. Normally go for jump Chapter Master, jump Master of Sanctity, Emperor's Champion, 3 MSU plas/combi-plas Crusader Squads, 5 LC Vanguard Vets (no jump pack) and 5 TH/SS Termies, then mount them all up in Land Raiders/Crusaders/Rhinos/Lazorbacks, with Termies in deep strike. Works well with the progression of combat doctrines and is pretty mobile, and a Crusader Helm on the Chapter Master combines with Fervent Acclamation on the MoS means everyone gets reroll to hits pretty much everywhere they go, plus can put the LC vets in Assault Doctrine early if needed. Also Divine Protection 5+ FNP Land Raiders are pretty tough.

If they ever squat regular marines I'll probably just play them as CSM. I don't like most of the Primaris designs and won't be complicit in phasing out my own models. I've never minded marines being a bit on the small side and prefer it immensely to everything becoming so much larger than before; scale creep has always been a thing but it was gradual and in smaller increments.

In my mind Space Marines are really basically the size of linemen in football but instead of fat they are all muscle, so being as tall as 8' is no big deal to me.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinMax wrote:
Yes. Primaris lore is an abomination. I run exclusively Firstborn Marines.

What he said. Exalted.

Less so.
The primaris line game me the objective to build a battleforce of my custom Chapter, so I'm focusing on them exclusively.

I like a lot the Primaris line so far, so that's a plus.

Probably will keep using a Firstborn Deathwatch in Kill Team and that's it.

Well, the announcement that first-born Marines get 2W each changes everything.
Most of us have first-born Marines at the shelves and can now rethink about using them game-wise.
Not a bad move by GW.

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
. . .
Squats being squatted = Advancement
Necrons not being chaos androids = Advancement
Tau being introduced = Advancement

so I'm gonna assume you ignore that lore as well?

Arguably Tau was expansion, and Chaos Androids could have been completely separate from Necrons, keeping Necrons as expansion as well. Necrons are certainly more expansion than advancement.

Oh, so you missed the coming of the Necrons in late 2e? That was advancement. The story advanced. Slightly. A new enemy was discovered.
Then came the Tau. The story advanced & more new enemies were discovered.
And before the Necrons? It was the Tyranids.

Guess what? Each time they made some new models & wrote up some lore to go with them.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Either way, none of those is nearly as central to the setting as The Great Rift, a Primarch reborn, and Primaris.

All I see is business as usual. New models get made & some {crappy} lore accompanies them.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Galactic map changes, Primarch comes back to life, and core/most popular army being replaced is "business as usual" huh? Ok.

Yep.

Galactic map re-drawn?
I honestly don't care. The only maps I've ever been concerned about 40kwise are the ones represented on the gaming tables. Oh sure, I have a passing knowledge of the galactic map. But as I've never played any grand tactical BFG style game where I needed to know where planets xyz etc are I've not worried about it. This lack of caring has never yet influenced a minis purchase. Nor has it ever influenced an actual game.

Primarchs coming back & getting rules/minis? A whole new line of SM minis?
Yep, business as usual. New minis are always accompanied by new lore. It doesn't matter to me if they sculpt the mini first & then write the lore, or if they sit down and write out a master plan for the story & then make the minis. The results the same. New minis arrive.
I look at the minis (and some times their rules).
If I like the minis? I buy & use them. If I don't? Well, better luck next time GW.
But the lore GW attaches to them? I don't really care. I haven't cared for a long time (around 4th I think). And that's never stopped me from enjoying the game.
The lore that does matter, to me? Comes from the games I've played. You might say I've been doing Crusade since the closing days of RT.

Oh, and as for the Primaris replacing the oldmarines? Ain't happened yet. (though it looks like this is the edition where I finally lose access to my las/plas razorback turrets).

All well and good, but you not caring about a thing happening is quite different than the thing itself happening or not.

It also doesn't change that it happening now isn't just more buisiness as usual.