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 MinMax wrote:
Yes. Primaris lore is an abomination. I run exclusively Firstborn Marines.

Exalted.
Indom almost had me but... I will never own a restartes weenie.

Recently started a new Blood Angels army, I considered making it purely Primaris, but I’ve already cracked and added the various BA Dreadnoughts. I want some Deimos preds too. I have tonnes of firstborn marines painted up in my custom chapter colours, and they just look silly next to the new models, so will likely keep the infantry models as Primaris only, with the exception of Terminators.

If I’m taking snipers I tend to prefer scouts over eliminators. The toy bullets have to work pretty hard to beat 3x as many shots + a heavy weapon, plus a filled troop slot and a few more points.

Pre outriders it was extremely difficult to find fast moving and/or deep striking close combat in the Primaris line.

Land Speeders - unless they release a flying skimmer with similar weapon choices - are going to be making a big comeback in 9th in the multimelta rule changes matriculate. Subject to what we know now changing, I’m pretty sure I’d use landspeeders over attack bikes over the ATV for a flanking marauder unit.. I.e. what we used to look for to get a side/rear armor tank buster unit.

Prior to the Impulsor mechanized infantry pretty much had to be old marines, Repulsors are too expensive for that kind of list.

I'm basically waiting for primaris to replace everything so any marine deployed on the table will be one anyway.

Then my army will remain the same and I won't need to care about old vs new marines

 Stormonu wrote:
As the title, are you still using the 1W marine models - as firstborn marines for your marine army?

If so, what infantry units are you still running?

For me it would be tactical squads, terminators and assault squads (with jetpacks), stuffed into rhinos, raiders and razorbacks. And at least one devastor squad (now that I've gotten over my "mad" of using them).

I am, and have been, and will almost certainly do so more based on the way my lists are going right now, be running long fangs, grey hunters, blood claws, wolf guard, and wolf guard terminators, so yes.

Also, most of my characters are, were, and will continue to be regular marines because regular marines have options (bike, jetpack) and are stronger offensively (Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields, ho!).

I started a new Ravenguard force when that supplement dropped which is almost exclusively Primaris (except vanguard Veterans and a JP Chaplain). However, my Dark Angels have a high proportion of firstborns and I will continue to flesh that out. Large Deathwing and Ravenwing elements, Greenwing with x3 tacs, x2 dev, x1 Assault (might get one more), plus vets. Plenty of characters, armour (just added a Pred and Pod for cheap), but only a couple of dreadnoughts (might need to add another one there). They're great for narrative play, no issues whatsoever.
I have added some Primaris to the DA but in a separate wing, and will add to them gradually, but only with models I like. Fortunately for my Ravenguard, I really wanted a heavy Phobos feel, and they fit the theme perfectly.

I am. And I'm never gonna stop. Primaris marines make the rest of my supersoldiers-vivisected-by-a-tyranical-fascist-war-machine-cult-from-men-into-killing-machines look weedy and short. Terminator honors are the highest a marine can bear. Why then are my terminators dwarfed by vat-grown re-hashes of mk4 armor, but with none of the legacy?
I love firstborn marines. The interchangeability, the history, the fact that I can take a mini from the 90s and he'll still scale well with the rest of his squad - the stories one can tell with mixed armor marks, individualized wargear, the goofy poses, the retro bits, the unadulterated classic GW aesthetic.
Upstart cycling short marines who've stolen their helmets from the reclusiarch, and their bolters from COD are simply not as compelling to me, no matter how many Warhammer Community articles I read, nor GW simps on this site hoping that if they whiteknight hard enought they'll get a second interview tell me that the lore "is ackshually very deep and well-done, you just need to buy 3 different cawl-centric novels, and take leave of your senses".

GW wants me to re-buy my army, but I'm not that dumb. I just got done buying the first version.

My collection of classic marines is sufficiently large (150+ infantry, dozens of vehicles) that I don't feel any temptation to expand into collecting Primaris; I'd rather build up my other armies than do the same thing all over again.

Furthermore, while I like most of the Primaris models (the MkX infantry are especially nice) I don't care for the lore.

Yep, tacticals in rhinos and land raider, backed by devastators and assult marines. No termies though

I don't like primaris models and I refuse to re-buy an entire army I already own, I'd rather start a completely new faction if my non primaris SW get squatted.

Truth is I've never even had the feeling that I needed primaris to compete, an optimized firstborn SM army is good enough to be extremely solid in any real meta. I won't win tournaments but really, it's only primaris armies that have an edge to my SW, anything else is a fair match. And I've refused to play imperium vs imperium since 3rd edition, so being subpar against primaris in not an issue.

Being SW it's easy to avoid primaris, as all the iconic units don't have a primaris equivalent.

My dark angels are still free of any primaris. I was building crimson fists as primaris only but I found that style really boring to play and lacking in anti tank. Added devastators and non primaris characters to make my list more competitive.

Dark angels should always be free of primaris.

As an old school DA player i know such outsiders would never really be accepted by the unforgiven, no matter how the GW writers try to spin it.

 aphyon wrote:
Dark angels should always be free of primaris.

As an old school DA player i know such outsiders would never really be accepted by the unforgiven, no matter how the GW writers try to spin it.

Tell me, a Space Marine trained from birth/young teen-hood is accepted by the DA, yes? They take on new recruits?

Why would that Marine having a few extra organs disqualify them from that? Note: I'm talking about the Indoctrinated, who are practically identical to any other normal recruit, not the Awoken, the ex-Legion Primaris. Or, what about a DA Marine that has served the Chapter for centuries beforehand, and then crosses the Rubicon Primaris - the Ascended? Are they suddenly a different person?

If you don't want your own force to have Primaris, that's cool. But there's no reason that the whole Chapter would decline, especially in the situation the DA were put in when Guilliman approached them.



However, that doesn't change that Indoctrinated and Ascended Primaris are no different to any other member of the Chapter.

The way I see it, DA and SW would definitely be more inclined not to trust the Primaris inductees that Cawl dumped into their lap, for a time. They'd have to earn their respect, and it'd be a VEEEEERY long time before any got inducted into the Deathwing.
But brand new recruits who undergo the Primaris transformation instead of the old-school one? I don't see any difference.

I'm also thinking that SW in particular would come to be proud of their fellow Primaris by their deeds and sagas, over time. There'd be some friendly rivalry and shoulder-nudging between the "grizzled dinosaurs" and the "brash upstarts", but that's not exactly the same as mistrust.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
However, that doesn't change that Indoctrinated and Ascended Primaris are no different to any other member of the Chapter.

In the w40k world tech is seen as something religious. And for space marines, stuff like the procedures that make them and above else their gene seed is even more so. They are practicaly holy objects. Any form of change to those things should be viewed as a border line heresy.

Now GW of course wants to sell primaris models to all marines players, and can shape the lore how ever they may please. It does not change the fact that chapters like DA or SW accepting primaris makes zero sense regarding the acceptance of primaris. Anyone who had to join a sports team or even a class mid seson knows how bad it is, and neither of those are religious or military organisations. Well at least in most cases they aren't.

Why would that Marine having a few extra organs disqualify them from that?

Is that a rethorical question, because we had wars here over the fact that part of the population here thought that the Holy Ghost comes from the Father and the Son, while the other thought that the Holy Ghost comes from the Father through the Son, with all other aspects of religions being the same.

Humans can be unaccepting and disqualifing over many things. And to marines those organs are holy objects often more important then a marines life.

Because primaris are guillimans pet project ultra marines. the DA would never accept them as anything other than UM, and the "tech heresy" of cawl is an afront to everything they stand for in devotion to the emperor.

 Stormonu wrote:
As the title, are you still using the 1W marine models - as firstborn marines for your marine army?

If so, what infantry units are you still running?

For me it would be tactical squads, terminators and assault squads (with jetpacks), stuffed into rhinos, raiders and razorbacks. And at least one devastor squad (now that I've gotten over my "mad" of using them).

I am using all of the good old stuff. Our group has abolished by the way the atrocious Restartes stuff. GW won't force hot garbage down our throats.

Depends.

For fluffy games, I prefer all Primaris.


If you rock up to a tournament, you probably still want some Smash Captains, perhaps a Thunderfire, some Centurions or Grav Devs in a Drop Pod, etc..

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
However, that doesn't change that Indoctrinated and Ascended Primaris are no different to any other member of the Chapter.

In the w40k world tech is seen as something religious. And for space marines, stuff like the procedures that make them and above else their gene seed is even more so. They are practicaly holy objects. Any form of change to those things should be viewed as a border line heresy.

Yet Marines are more than happy to upgrade equipment and gear if it proves to be effective at completing their goal of serving the Emperor.

If DA Marines were so adverse to change, why do they wear Mark VII power armour? Necessity. Why did they accept Primaris? Necessity.

It does not change the fact that chapters like DA or SW accepting primaris makes zero sense regarding the acceptance of primaris.

It only makes sense if you assume that they're dumb.

The Space Wolves had nearly been wiped out after great swathes of the Fenris system were destroyed. The Dark Angels had lost their most valuable prisoner, and the entire DA bloodline had suffered massive losses. This is ignoring the Great Rift and the fall of Cadia, two cataclysmic events that put the Imperium in the weakest place it's been in millenia.

Astartes might be proud, but they're not dumb. The Space Wolves needed reinforcement to get back into the fight. The Dark Angels wanted to build up strength at get on Guilliman's good side. Rejecting Primaris would have been counterintuitive.

Anyone who had to join a sports team or even a class mid seson knows how bad it is, and neither of those are religious or military organisations. Well at least in most cases they aren't.

But the stakes of those situations aren't anywhere NEAR like the Primaris situation.

It would be a case of "put this guy on your team, or else you don't get to play this season, and we'll ban you permanently". And I don't see any First Founding Chapter, especially with the legacies they fight to uphold, opposing that.

Why would that Marine having a few extra organs disqualify them from that?

Is that a rethorical question, because we had wars here over the fact that part of the population here thought that the Holy Ghost comes from the Father and the Son, while the other thought that the Holy Ghost comes from the Father through the Son, with all other aspects of religions being the same.

And? Space Marines are already pumped full of new and different organs. Some don't even work on all Space Marines (Imperial Fists and their lack of a Betcher's Gland)

Another way to look at the Primaris upgrades is that they bring the Marines closer to their Primarchs - the use of the Sangprimus Portum literally helps bring that "Primarch juice" into the Astartes - and there's not a single First Founding Chapter that wouldn't want to be closer to their Primarch. Hell, the Space Wolves would ESPECIALLY like that.

Humans can be unaccepting and disqualifing over many things. And to marines those organs are holy objects often more important then a marines life.

Humans can also be pragmatic, self-serving, and driven to desperation.

Why do you ascribe all the worst aspects of humanity to Astartes, and never the good ones?

aphyon wrote:Because primaris are guillimans pet project ultra marines.

The Awoken? You might have a point. The Ascended and Indoctrinated? Not a chance. They're functionally identical to any other DA.

Why are they different?

the DA would never accept them as anything other than UM

Why? Let's take Brothers Ammion and Berthus. Both are recruited in 999.M41, but Ammion is one of the first DA Marines to be given the Primaris indoctrination. He is the same ages as Berthus, recruited from the same planet, both have had the same upbringing and exposure to the Chapter and wider Imperium. Both are given their Space Marine enhancements, and Ammion is given the extra Primaris ones. They are educated side by side, ingrained in the Chapters' stories and culture and legacy at the same time.

How is Ammion anything but a Dark Angel?

And, let's introduce Brother Centus to the mix, the Marine who trained Ammion and Berthus. He's been fighting for the Dark Angels since 500.M41, with centuries of experience under his belt. He's proven his loyalty hundreds of times over to the Chapter and his brothers, and has been considered for membership to the Inner Circle. He goes under the knife, and takes the Rubicon Primaris. He comes out the other side, the same Marine, but stronger, taller, faster. Why is he no longer a Dark Angel?

, and the "tech heresy" of cawl is an afront to everything they stand for in devotion to the emperor.

You mean the tech heresy the Emperor, his Regent, and the Custodes all endorse and support?

I've seen it said before (in universe) that the best form of worship to the Emperor is combat. Wilfully rejecting better equipment and resources to aid in combat is a greater form of disrespect and disloyalty, I'd argue.

smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

We all know that they would not be accepted in lore....but oh look we will toss on super disaster upon disaster to FORCE abnormal behavior...AKA buy more primaris minis, they are new and we have given them better stats and gear.

While i see guilliman tossing aside his index in favor of returning to the days of the legions and focused unit combat tactics . the advent of the "perfected" primaris with cawl removing all thier flaws is the equivalent of all space marines are now generic ultra marines with different paint schemes.

Nope. The moment I saw the new primaris models in flesh I knew that my old marines were permanently retired.

 aphyon wrote:
smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

And your entire argument is based and frankly ridiculous assertations.

Look, I frankly don't care if you like or dislike Primaris, if you want them in your army or not - no-one's forcing you. But spare a thought for the people who might play DA and actually want some Primaris in their army?

We all know that they would not be accepted in lore

Well, except that's not true. But do go on.

....but oh look we will toss on super disaster upon disaster to FORCE abnormal behavior

Hang on, so you're admitting that it makes sense in lore that they'd accept them because of disasters, but you... dislike that they made those disasters happen? What kind of hokey logic is that!

"UGGHHHH it's so unrealistic that Tyranids exist GAWD screw GW for writing the fluff of them coming in from BEYOND THE GALAXY god how convenient"
"WOWWWWWW these Tau JUST HAPPEN to survive because of """warp storms""" SUPER CONVENIENT amirite"
"GW just HAD to make it so that Horus (THE BESTEST PRIMARCH) turned traitor so they could justify Chaos Marines to FORCE ABNORMAL BEHAVIOUR"

You realise that's what you're sounding like, right?

...AKA buy more primaris minis, they are new and we have given them better stats and gear.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Primaris inferior in terms of gameplay to Firstborn Marines upon release? Like, aside from Inceptors and Hellblasters, weren't Firstborn units more "meta" at the time?

While i see guilliman tossing aside his index in favor of returning to the days of the legions and focused unit combat tactics . the advent of the "perfected" primaris with cawl removing all thier flaws is the equivalent of all space marines are now generic ultra marines with different paint schemes.

Dude, you really need to pick up a book and actually read something.

Primaris Marines aren't flawless. Wulfen Primaris exist. Primaris Blood Angels (and their successors) fall to the Red Thirst/Black Rage. The vast majority of Primaris Marines aren't even the ones that were in stasis at the start of the Indomitus Crusade, they're literally just recruited normally, like Marines in the 10,000 years before. What part of that don't you understand?

It's like you're stuck in a time loop from when the only Primaris that existed were the ones who'd just been thawed out. Get with the times. You're free to dislike Primaris, but at least dislike them with up-to-date information.

My Firstborn Marines are retired into a display case. Their size next to Guardsmen and the like never sat well with me but hell I had to deal with it. Now I don't lol. I love the look of Primaris Marines (though I use a lot of bits from Firstborn Marines to customise mine). Hell Sicarius was always a favorite so I kit bashed and razor sawed up an original and made him Primaris using a Primaris Capt model. On one hand it did suck buying my Ultramarines army *again* BUT, the look of the new one makes up for that for my personal case.

Not really. I run Pedro Kantor as my Chapter Master, but he is in a crowded slot and a lot of points. Plus he can't ride in any of my transports, so all he can really do is March with the Aggressors and give them bonuses to shooting and attacks. Depending on how things go, he might be out of the army soon. If he gets a Primaris model, I would add it to my list in a heartbeat though.

 aphyon wrote:
smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

This.

I'm basically ignoring M42 lore these days.

aphyon wrote:smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

you do realize the entire point of the lore is to get you to buy miniatures? cuz, that's how it works.

 aphyon wrote:
Dark angels should always be free of primaris.

As an old school DA player i know such outsiders would never really be accepted by the unforgiven, no matter how the GW writers try to spin it.

And who was it that gave you that DA/Unforgiven lore in the 1st place?

Racerguy180 wrote:

aphyon wrote:smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

you do realize the entire point of the lore is to get you to buy miniatures? cuz, that's how it works.

It worked differently and it worked well for 25 years prior to 8th and it's sweeping changes.

Can you guys take the DA lore argument elsewhere?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

aphyon wrote:smudge your entire argument is the power of plot pushed on us by GW to try and force the primaris narrative.

you do realize the entire point of the lore is to get you to buy miniatures? cuz, that's how it works.

It worked differently and it worked well for 25 years prior to 8th and it's sweeping changes.

Well that might be your impression of it....