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 Super Ready wrote:
The dangers of taking a simple dictionary definition... ok, I was mistaken on the meaning of "majority".
Let's call it "dominating" or "most popular" instead.

Let's face it, the prevalence of Primaris units in competitive Marine lists means there isn't that much functional difference between the Codex Chapters. The difference between taking Mephiston or Calgar in a list that's otherwise made up of Intercessors, Eliminators, Aggressors and so on is no more a difference than taking an Avatar instead of a Farseer - and most Codexes have an equivalent for the extra Chapter Tactics, like Klans or Septs.
To my mind, that means that really we have 3 Marine 'factions' worth considering as different. Marines, Space Wolves and Deathwatch. I realise that's an individual judgement call, though - and I'd be interested to see how that 28% (or whatever) is broken down when accounting for Wolves, Deathwatch and any non-Primaris lists.

I'd still split out the Big Four. The new Assault Intercessors + Red Thirst could make even Primaris BA run different enough to be their own. On the flip side I just checked out DA, and I don't know what they're doing with them. And entire detachment becomes a Ravenwing Attack Squadron I don't know if I would in 2 months. Or 2 Months + Big Four Supplements. Depends on what they do with Chapter Traits and unit homogeny.

They look good on paper, but maybe not quite as impressive as you might think.

If they weren't troops I don't think they'd be that great. That said, our marine players found they make great insurance policies against having to go second. Reserve a squad or two in impulsors (possibly using a slightly smaller squad in 1 so that you can add a Chaplain or similar) and then use them to charge objectives. Since they have Obsec they have to be dealt with because even if they don't outright claim the objective, they can typically challenge for it so they have to be dealt with. They're also good for counter charging. Get a squad in position to cover one or more objectives you already hold, and they become a threat to counter charge any enemy units that try to get to CC.

They definitely aren't garbage and they're a lot better than a lot of other troops choices (especially given certain strats) but yeah - if you're looking for OP - there are many other things in the Marine arsenal that take that title over these quite easily. I think the key with them (from what I've seen strictly anecdotally), is that unlike other marine units in the current dex, if you take them, you have to actually have a bit of a strategy for them and kind of build around them a bit, but in the right army they can provide some insurance that is very nice to have.

Depends on the chapter.

Let's look at White Scars:

2 Damage, AP-2, Str4 Assault Intercessors threaten pretty much anything. They can also advance and charge, fall back and charge, can get +1 to wound, and their pistols can do some work in a pinch, 3d6 charge out of deep strike strat.

Blood Angels:
+1 to wound, good strats to back them up, 3d6 charge.

The issue with most SM units it that there's a chapter that pushes them well beyond their point cost. Flamestorm Aggressors are probably cute in Ultramarines -- they are outright rat bastards in Salamander successors. It's really hard to balance a unit that can literally fit any upgrade it damn well chooses between 7-8 different codexes / unique stratagems.

I wish UM Aggressor squads weren't as good as they are. I don't have enough dice to roll an average of 100+ bolter shots per turn, from a relatively low cost 6-man unit. Aggressors also perform much better with Ravenguard delivery and Salamanders, but not as well in just about any other chapter.

 Thadin wrote:
I wish UM Aggressor squads weren't as good as they are. I don't have enough dice to roll an average of 100+ bolter shots per turn, from a relatively low cost 6-man unit. Aggressors also perform much better with Ravenguard delivery and Salamanders, but not as well in just about any other chapter.

At least last edition they were great for Iron Hands (5+ Overwatch with 9 shots meant you were less likely to get picked on) and of course Imperial Fists (exploding shots and ignoring cover)

Blood Angels will be thrilled when they get death company versions, but as of now, if you really want them to perform, fill up a Repulsor with 9 of these bad boys and add a Librarian/Chaplain/Captain to crash into the enemy lines with. Turn 2 charge, if they survive, turn 3 they get even better with -2 ap.

I suspect Death Company Assault Intercessors may well suffer the same issue that old-school Death Company used to have too - they were too damn expensive, especially once you work in the almost-obligatory transport and Chaplain, and they won't be troops either. Mind you, now they've got extra durability to go with.
...that's not gonna stop me taking some, though.

 Super Ready wrote:
I suspect Death Company Assault Intercessors may well suffer the same issue that old-school Death Company used to have too - they were too damn expensive, especially once you work in the almost-obligatory transport and Chaplain, and they won't be troops either. Mind you, now they've got extra durability to go with.
...that's not gonna stop me taking some, though.

I have playtested Death Company Intercessor's for a few games, they certainly work. 21 or 22 point DC Assault Intercessor's will probably be priced just right to wreck some Xenos scum.

Well the fundamental problem is that Intercessors do the same thing, but with range. This is a problem with melee unit design overall since 8th.

"Here's a unit. It does X damage at range. And here's another version of the unit that also does X damage, but only in melee! Yay!"

Assault Intercessors (or assault marines, or chainsword csm) have 1 more attack in melee than their ranged version, and one less attack at range, but with way worse range. Assuming a 24" starting deployment distance, footslogging melee units will get into combat on turn ~3, and fire their pistol once or twice (depending on ranges and advances). Assuming they stay in combat till turn 5, we're looking at 2 turns of CC. Assuming shock assault every turn, assault intercessors have 4 sword attacks and 1 pistol attack each cc turn, +1 pistol while closing. So 11 attacks. Meanwhile, the ranged intercessors have shot 10 times while standing on a backfield objective, probably in cover, without being hit back in melee and while avoiding close range threats.

Or if the ranged intercessors move up and shoot, then they could easily do 6 shots in the first 3 turns, then still 3 cc attacks each turn in melee for a larger total in the end.

This difference in design philosophy did make sense back in the days when bolter discipline didn't exist, so the ranged guys had to get closer anyway. And when long ranged bolt rifles didn't exist. And when sweeping advance and old powerfists meant that raw melee stats weren't as big of an issue (especially on durable units like marines.) And when transports were cheap and tough.

Melee units like this can still be useful sometimes when you can stack enough buffs or have the right transport, so I'm not saying they'll never show up. But that takes a lot of outside factors.

Overall, this is another example of GW not updating their unit design philosophy to take into account 8th's core rule systems changes. Melee units that follow this design philosophy will remain subpar until they get the memo.

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

not gonna lie I honestly made this thread because I was tired of seeing people claim every new Primaris unit is utterly OP etc, So I figured I'd call the people saying that and force them to eaither make an absurd case that assault intercessors are OP or well.. maybe climb down from their extreme stance

BrianDavion wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

not gonna lie I honestly made this thread because I was tired of seeing people claim every new Primaris unit is utterly OP etc, So I figured I'd call the people saying that and force them to eaither make an absurd case that assault intercessors are OP or well.. maybe climb down from their extreme stance

But no one is saying they're OP. It's almost like... people say OP units are OP. :gasp:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

not gonna lie I honestly made this thread because I was tired of seeing people claim every new Primaris unit is utterly OP etc, So I figured I'd call the people saying that and force them to eaither make an absurd case that assault intercessors are OP or well.. maybe climb down from their extreme stance

And you've proven that if a new unit isn't OP the majority of posters recognize that and don't call it as such. So maybe, just maybe, could it be that the units that they complain about could, just possibly, be considered a bit overpowered, underpriced, or both? Do you think it might be possible that people aren't overreacting to things like 40 PPM eradicators?

Or IJ've just proven that the people screaming GW makes every new space marine unit utterly OP are full of gak.

BrianDavion wrote:
Or IJ've just proven that the people screaming GW makes every new space marine unit utterly OP are full of gak.

BrianDavion wrote:
Or IJ've just proven that the people screaming GW makes every new space marine unit utterly OP are full of gak.

Who exactly, in this thread or elsewhere, has been referring to Assault Intercessors as "utterly OP"? All you've proven is that people can recognize the difference between a unit that is OP and one that is not. Nothing more.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

not gonna lie I honestly made this thread because I was tired of seeing people claim every new Primaris unit is utterly OP etc, So I figured I'd call the people saying that and force them to eaither make an absurd case that assault intercessors are OP or well.. maybe climb down from their extreme stance

And you've proven that if a new unit isn't OP the majority of posters recognize that and don't call it as such. So maybe, just maybe, could it be that the units that they complain about could, just possibly, be considered a bit overpowered, underpriced, or both? Do you think it might be possible that people aren't overreacting to things like 40 PPM eradicators?

technically this is all overreacting, ya know since nobody has a codex yet and no one knows what everything else is gonna be. like maybe, no bolter drill, or a massive change to doctrines, or....

point is we dont know anything for sure till then.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

not gonna lie I honestly made this thread because I was tired of seeing people claim every new Primaris unit is utterly OP etc, So I figured I'd call the people saying that and force them to eaither make an absurd case that assault intercessors are OP or well.. maybe climb down from their extreme stance

And you've proven that if a new unit isn't OP the majority of posters recognize that and don't call it as such. So maybe, just maybe, could it be that the units that they complain about could, just possibly, be considered a bit overpowered, underpriced, or both? Do you think it might be possible that people aren't overreacting to things like 40 PPM eradicators?

technically this is all overreacting, ya know since nobody has a codex yet and no one knows what everything else is gonna be. like maybe, no bolter drill, or a massive change to doctrines, or....

point is we dont know anything for sure till then.

That's a good point. We've already seen that they've dialed back most of the chapter tactics. Though losing bolter drill would do nothing to eradicators, and losing doctrines would only affect their output against things with a 2+ save and no invul for most chapters. If Salamanders lost their +1 to wound with melta weapons it would definitely help though. For the record, I repeat that my primary problem with them is their price, they're just too cheap for what they do.

Assaulcessors are a great running screen for Ragnar and Murderfang. Not amazing on their own but no slouches either. They work fine as Space Wolves at least, hitting on 2s when charging and rerolling ones when Raggy's around.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Or IJ've just proven that the people screaming GW makes every new space marine unit utterly OP are full of gak.

Who exactly, in this thread or elsewhere, has been referring to Assault Intercessors as "utterly OP"? All you've proven is that people can recognize the difference between a unit that is OP and one that is not. Nothing more.

Nobody has, but there's a lot of people who scream "but muhreens are the chosen ones, they get 500 releases a year, every model can beat my entire codex, I'm a poor little npc who had gw crap in my cereal".

BrianDavion wrote:

not gonna lie I honestly made this thread because I was tired of seeing people claim every new Primaris unit is utterly OP etc, So I figured I'd call the people saying that and force them to eaither make an absurd case that assault intercessors are OP or well.. maybe climb down from their extreme stance

People at this point can reasonably complain about the fact that they exist at this point. Marines are at the top of the meta; they were before Eradicators even came out, and they just had enough stuff. They didn't and don't need anything else. I dunno if that stupid crawling turret thing is OP, but I am still annoyed that it exists because it's just more stuff for the Marines. Even Marine players, their paintbrushes, and their wallets, are getting tired of keeping up with the releases.

if you're trying to keep up w releases, its probably not the best idea in the world to continue. Irrespective of who gets what/when/where/how.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

not gonna lie I honestly made this thread because I was tired of seeing people claim every new Primaris unit is utterly OP etc, So I figured I'd call the people saying that and force them to eaither make an absurd case that assault intercessors are OP or well.. maybe climb down from their extreme stance

People at this point can reasonably complain about the fact that they exist at this point. Marines are at the top of the meta; they were before Eradicators even came out, and they just had enough stuff. They didn't and don't need anything else. I dunno if that stupid crawling turret thing is OP, but I am still annoyed that it exists because it's just more stuff for the Marines. Even Marine players, their paintbrushes, and their wallets, are getting tired of keeping up with the releases.

Marine players don't have to buy every kit that comes out, they aren't forced to use Eradicators, youre describing a lot of problems that are personal choices. Likewise if there are too many options for marines that doesnt really impact you as a none marine player, you just have more months where you don't need to buy anything.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Blood Angels will be thrilled when they get death company versions, but as of now, if you really want them to perform, fill up a Repulsor with 9 of these bad boys and add a Librarian/Chaplain/Captain to crash into the enemy lines with. Turn 2 charge, if they survive, turn 3 they get even better with -2 ap.

Two five man’s in two shield dome or Bellicatus repulsors with a captain/chaplain/Libby/lieutenant/apothecary/judiciar/etc or two gets the same transport speed and likely costs about the same depending on how wild you get with the characters, but you get two bubbles/power fists/whatever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CEO Kasen wrote:


People at this point can reasonably complain about the fact that they exist at this point. Marines are at the top of the meta; they were before Eradicators even came out, and they just had enough stuff. They didn't and don't need anything else.

Marines or Primaris Marines? Between very reasonable theories old Marines are being squatted at some future point, and GW pushing the Indomitus Founding all Primaris Chapters they did need a CCW unit (or more) and a few other unit archetypes. Not all releases are/should be about the Meta, especially with what amounts to an entirely new faction/sub-faction being released.

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Or IJ've just proven that the people screaming GW makes every new space marine unit utterly OP are full of gak.

Who exactly, in this thread or elsewhere, has been referring to Assault Intercessors as "utterly OP"? All you've proven is that people can recognize the difference between a unit that is OP and one that is not. Nothing more.

Nobody has, but there's a lot of people who scream "but muhreens are the chosen ones, they get 500 releases a year, every model can beat my entire codex, I'm a poor little npc who had gw crap in my cereal".

Yes, but there's no reason to answer hyperbole with more hyperbole. Assault Intercessors are a good unit, not OP, just good. Other loyalist units like eradicators and relic contemptors, however, are underpriced. The fact that Assault Intercessors aren't OP doesn't make other loyalist units less so. Just because someone arguing that Assault Intercessors are OP is wrong doesn't mean someone making the same argument about other loyalist units is wrong as well.

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

"slightly" better. Just record breaking level of brokenness. "slightly" better indeed.

tneva82 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

"slightly" better. Just record breaking level of brokenness. "slightly" better indeed.

Is it though? Pretty sure mid-8th ynnari has that title still.

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

"slightly" better. Just record breaking level of brokenness. "slightly" better indeed.

Is it though? Pretty sure mid-8th ynnari has that title still.

nope, not to my knowledge, release day IH has them beat easily, and even afterwards.
However both don't really come close to scatbikes and taudar .

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

"slightly" better. Just record breaking level of brokenness. "slightly" better indeed.

Is it though? Pretty sure mid-8th ynnari has that title still.

nope, not to my knowledge, release day IH has them beat easily, and even afterwards.
However both don't really come close to scatbikes and taudar .

release day iron hands where (quite rightly) nerfed

Goes to show how bonkers they were when even afterwards they beat ynnari rather confidently winr rates wise.


But the most annoying issue with this is, how GW proceeded to just ignore the playtesters that warned them.-......

Not Online!!! wrote:
Goes to show how bonkers they were when even afterwards they beat ynnari rather confidently winr rates wise.


But the most annoying issue with this is, how GW proceeded to just ignore the playtesters that warned them.-......

By time Iron Hands where nerfed Ynnari had been nerfed into the ground already IIRC.

heck we had like 1-2 months of play after that nerf tops before covid shut everything down.