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the_scotsman wrote:
I'll admit it I did not have "unable to sate their oppression narrative with existing threads, marine players create their own marine salt thread in order to complain about how people are complaining about marines" on my dakka bingo card.

I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Think you hit the nail on the head with the use of the "oppression". I bet marine players probably do feel a little oppressed and victimised atm.

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

OFC they are OP, 100 on the table GO GO GO

EDIT: JK you need HQ's so 70 on the table.

Not gonna lie. The only time I saw them on the table, they got, tanglefoot grenaded so they failed their charge, got shot and then got counter charged by my Custodes, and they all died before they swung back.

They look good on paper, but maybe not quite as impressive as you might think.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Not gonna lie. The only time I saw them on the table, they got, tanglefoot grenaded so they failed their charge, got shot and then got counter charged by my Custodes, and they all died before they swung back.

They look good on paper, but maybe not quite as impressive as you might think.

like i said, they are good melee units, but they are neither Khorne berzerkers nor designed to actually work with the current paradigms for melee units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
OFC they are OP, 100 on the table GO GO GO

EDIT: JK you need HQ's so 70 on the table.

Feint URA URA URA noises*

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

I mean the page is right there, I can just click the link and find out that the post actually said "they're better than every other factions TROOPS."

Which is.... maybe an exaggeration? Most troop choices aren't in good spot right now.

Assuming I could either also have their transport, or they could board my factions' transports (like we're imagining that they're some kind of new "Ultra 'Ard Boyz" or "Necron Phase-Reapers" or "Eldar Shock Guardians" unit with identical stats to assault intercessors) I would take my own factions' troops over assault intercessors....pretty much just with Harlequin Troupes and MAYBE rubric marines.

I'd take them over Chaos Marines for sure.
I'd take them over Ork Boyz in my trukk list, I'd probably take boyz still in my ghazzy footslogging list
I'd take them over all the drukhari troops in a heartbeat, lol. Two piddly kabalite warriors or one of those 4A S4 AP-1 chads? Every day. Those things are like 2 wyches stapled together that don't need to be in melee to have a save.
I'd take them over everything eldar no question at all.
I'd take them over GSC acolytes for sure.
Hmmm, guys with W2 and 3+sv or Genstealers with W1 and 5++ save, decisions decisions for Tyranids!

So, not every unit, just every troop. Which I think is very slightly hyperbolic because Custodes and Harlequins exist, and it's tough to compare them to like nurglings because they're that's like saying "what's better a grot squad or a quadlas predator" there's no comparison that makes any sense there.

But seriously?

People are not remembering the Eldar meta?

People are not remembering the claims of "You can take ANY 2000 points of models from the Eldar codex and win against tournament armies from EVERY other faction!!!!"? And people going "But, wait. Storm guardians, dire avengers, autarchs, all the named characters, avatars...?" and people saying they'd stab their firstborn child for a unit as crazy OP as a Dire Avenger?

How quickly we forget. You even have an eldar avatar.

the_scotsman wrote:


How quickly we forget. You even have an eldar avatar.

She's not an Eldar. She's Governor Elena Derosa from Dawn of War 2.

 RaptorusRex wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


How quickly we forget. You even have an eldar avatar.

She's not an Eldar. She's Governor Elena Derosa from Dawn of War 2.

oh, I just assume any video game female from the 40k universe is an eldar because that's usually where they stick the token woman character. The default farseer has been a helmetless woman in all the DoW games I've played despite there never being a farseer model like that to my knowledge. Or a farseer model that's not wearing a ghosthelm I dont think.

 Super Ready wrote:
To me, their biggest issue is that they're kitted out for getting up close and personal, but as Troops, you also kinda want them sitting on objectives.
Of course, in a vacuum that makes them look bad but in reality, you can take them alongside other Intercessors or Tacs and have your Assault Intercessors push for further objectives, for instance those missions where you've got some in the enemy deployment zone or damn near to it.

I want them sitting on your objectives. 5 Assault Intercessors and an Apothecary, or Chaplain/Captain/Lieutenant bubble, or Judiciar with their Big Sword of High Strength High AP Death pretending to be a semi-hidden power fist fit inside a Repulsor with a 4++

 Irbis wrote:


You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

yep each day, every day. And now when SM are good and finaly fun to play in different ways for multiple marine factions, it is somehow breaking the balance of the game and making the game unfun for everyone. Even when marine players make up the majority of all players.

I still haven't built mine yet. Not sure what to do with them. Don't fit my Ravenguard as they are mostly phobos, dark angels don't really benefit from them as much, maybe Deathwatch? Going to wait for codex before doing much of anything with my Indomitus marines.

Karol wrote:

 Irbis wrote:


You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

yep each day, every day. And now when SM are good and finaly fun to play in different ways for multiple marine factions, it is somehow breaking the balance of the game and making the game unfun for everyone. Even when marine players make up the majority of all players.

Wasn't the most recent number 28% or 32% or something from the tournament data?

In the middle of a marine dominated meta?

Is 28% a majority now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
I still haven't built mine yet. Not sure what to do with them. Don't fit my Ravenguard as they are mostly phobos, dark angels don't really benefit from them as much, maybe Deathwatch? Going to wait for codex before doing much of anything with my Indomitus marines.

I'd love it if Deathwatch got the ability to take them in the mixed kill team squads. There's a lot of potential to make primaris a lot more interesting from a squad setup standpoint if DW got the ability to mix and match.

You could put like aggressors in with them and use aggressors like an actual assault unit.

 bullyboy wrote:
I still haven't built mine yet. Not sure what to do with them. Don't fit my Ravenguard as they are mostly phobos, dark angels don't really benefit from them as much, maybe Deathwatch? Going to wait for codex before doing much of anything with my Indomitus marines.

They're BP/CCW scouts/marines/Grey Hunters/CSM. Sort of. Most of the same things you would have used them for you'd use these for. They're slightly cheaper than gun intercessors. Fit nicely with a character in an Impulsor. In some ways the tag along character is even better here than in the scouts. In some ways its worse. More temptation to give up 2+ bodies for 1 character.

I agree they're not for your Ravenwing if you're doing a Phobos theme, but I think the Dark Angels could benefit from them replacing one shooty Intercessor or two especially around a chaplain they're known for.

Karol wrote:

yep each day, every day. And now when SM are good and finaly fun to play in different ways for multiple marine factions, it is somehow breaking the balance of the game and making the game unfun for everyone. Even when marine players make up the majority of all players.

Very few marine players enjoy playing against other SM armies though, I certainly don't. Which is what happens when the most popular faction is also the edition's top tier.

I'd rather have a mediocre SW army that manages to find games against non loyalists than a top tier one that mostly has to fight against other loyalists. In fact despite people considered SW a mediocre-mid tier army at most during 8th I had a lot of fun with it and it was powerful enough to avoid primaris (which I don't like and I'll never buy) or doctrines (which became available to SW during the lockdown).

Now I have mixed feelings since I consider my army really too powerful for many opponents I could actually face and have to tone it down my favorite lists significantly, which I'm willing to do it although I'm not 100% happy about making changes to the lists I prefer to play.

 Blackie wrote:

Karol wrote:

yep each day, every day. And now when SM are good and finaly fun to play in different ways for multiple marine factions, it is somehow breaking the balance of the game and making the game unfun for everyone. Even when marine players make up the majority of all players.

Very few marine players enjoy playing against other SM armies though, I certainly don't. Which is what happens when the most popular faction is also the edition's top tier.

I'd rather have a mediocre SW army that manages to find games against non loyalists than a top tier one that mostly has to fight against other loyalists. In fact despite people considered SW a mediocre-mid tier army at most during 8th I had a lot of fun with it and it was powerful enough to avoid primaris (which I don't like and I'll never buy) or doctrines (which became available to SW during the lockdown).

Now I have mixed feelings since I consider my army really too powerful for many opponents I could actually face and have to tone it down my favorite lists significantly, which I'm willing to do it although I'm not 100% happy about making changes to the lists I prefer to play.

I play marines and don't mind the mirror at all. I actually find those matches rather fun. I would much rather play against another marine list than say a pure knight list that brought two relic guns and proceeds to nuke all my vehicles off the table turn 1.

As a matter of fact in my experience the marine players that whine about the mirror are the ones in the minority.

the_scotsman wrote:
Wasn't the most recent number 28% or 32% or something from the tournament data?
In the middle of a marine dominated meta?
Is 28% a majority now?

That's over a quarter, in a game with factions going into double figures. "Majority" doesn't mean over 50%, it just means the most popular in a given set. So yes, absolutely, Marines are currently a majority.

Majority (in simple case) does in fact mean over 50%.

You're thinking of 'plurality'. This can also be called relative (unsimple ) majority if you're trying to confuse everyone.

 Irbis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm enjoying the satirical nature of the thread but also the fact nobody has come in actually screaming about how anything is OP even when baited.

Did you actually read this thread? Because even though OP openly admitted this is bait, SECOND post was from someone who bit hook line and sinker screaming every single SM unit is better than all other books combined

You know, it's funny, Eldar and Tau were broken beyond belief for 2.5 half editions, and the only thing players of both said on repeat was 'game is totes balanced, git gud'. Now that SM are slightly better than either for the first time in forever the sky is suddenly falling and the xeno players turned into children screaming their bottle of milk is too hot, even though in actual reality, not in their imagination, xenos still trounce SM without problems (see harlequins and dark eldar results in tournaments). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...

Between completely misunderstanding the post about Troops comparison, acting as if Eldar and Tau = all xenos players, suggesting that all xenos (Tyranids, Orks, GSC) have a shot because Harlies and DE are showing up in tournaments, and describing the 70+% win rate of Salamanders as 'slightly better', I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess you play Marines.

You know, there are plenty of xenos players who don't defend Alaitoc flyer spam or Triptides, or have meltdowns over Marines dominating the meta at the start of 8th. Not everyone has this spiteful 'feth you, I got mine' attitude. Just something to consider.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

I play marines and don't mind the mirror at all. I actually find those matches rather fun. I would much rather play against another marine list than say a pure knight list that brought two relic guns and proceeds to nuke all my vehicles off the table turn 1.

As a matter of fact in my experience the marine players that whine about the mirror are the ones in the minority.

I don't whine about it, but I do enjoy a vs CSM list a lot more than I enjoy a vs SW etc list. Its not the units/style I don't enjoy about a SM v SM/DA/BA/SW/etc list its the narrative/fluff. More stories of Space Marines scrapping with each other over lets say policy disagreements like the Wolves and the Inquisition might help that.

 Super Ready wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Wasn't the most recent number 28% or 32% or something from the tournament data?
In the middle of a marine dominated meta?
Is 28% a majority now?

That's over a quarter, in a game with factions going into double figures. "Majority" doesn't mean over 50%, it just means the most popular in a given set. So yes, absolutely, Marines are currently a majority.

Considering that the figure of 28% accounts for the combination of what are currently 5/24 published codexes (Space Marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Dark Angels) given perfectly even representation of all codexes, you would expect 20.8% to be marines.

It's this bizarre dance that marine players do where depending on the question being asked they want to be considered as multiple codexes or the same codex.

Do marines have too many model releases?

Well, we have to consider marines to be 5 codexes! Since they all use the primaris models collectively, it's not an out of whack model release schedule at all!

Are marines overpowered?

Well, we have to consider the win percentages of all the various marine factions together, including the ones that have fewer of the most powerful rules like Deathwatch, who don't get their own psychic power list, only get basic doctrines, don't get Bolter Discipline on their special ammo they pay more points for, etc! Their 30% winrate must be folded in to marines' overall winrate to be "fair"!

Are marines overrepresented in competitive play?

Why, no, marines are five codexes now again! They're just barely over the expected average!

On Marine Majority.

Lets say you had a huge 3 game tournament and 28% of all lists are Marines. Assuming all game allocations were random (to remove any performance related skew, which probably increases the odds at the top end and reduces them at the bottom if Marines overperform.)

The odds of not encountering any Marines would be 0.72*0.72*0.72=37%.
The odds of playing Marines once would be 43%.
The odds of playing Marines twice would be 17%
And finally the odds of playing Marines 3 times would be 2%. (The 1% gap is due to my rounding).

As you can see, that's an awful lot of players playing a lot of marines.

If by contrast Harlequins made up even 10% of the field, the odds of not encountering any would be 0.9*0.9*0.9=72.9%.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Wasn't the most recent number 28% or 32% or something from the tournament data?
In the middle of a marine dominated meta?
Is 28% a majority now?

That's over a quarter, in a game with factions going into double figures. "Majority" doesn't mean over 50%, it just means the most popular in a given set. So yes, absolutely, Marines are currently a majority.

Considering that the figure of 28% accounts for the combination of what are currently 5/24 published codexes (Space Marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Dark Angels) given perfectly even representation of all codexes, you would expect 20.8% to be marines.

It's this bizarre dance that marine players do where depending on the question being asked they want to be considered as multiple codexes or the same codex.

Do marines have too many model releases?

Well, we have to consider marines to be 5 codexes! Since they all use the primaris models collectively, it's not an out of whack model release schedule at all!

Are marines overpowered?

Well, we have to consider the win percentages of all the various marine factions together, including the ones that have fewer of the most powerful rules like Deathwatch, who don't get their own psychic power list, only get basic doctrines, don't get Bolter Discipline on their special ammo they pay more points for, etc! Their 30% winrate must be folded in to marines' overall winrate to be "fair"!

Are marines overrepresented in competitive play?

Why, no, marines are five codexes now again! They're just barely over the expected average!

It's different arguments with different people, it's not some central body publishing when marines should be considered separate or otherwise.

Personal takes:

Each codex/supplement should be considered separate regards power levels and tourney results. The releases are fair due to the large number of players and codex the models covered, likewise if they wanted a fully fleshed out Primaris line they needed more stuff adding but are pretty much there now.

Again Historically when looking at releases, people kick off about new marine kits that all those various factions can use, but nobody kicked up a massive stink when we had separate kits and releases for tac squads, grey hunters, blood angels tac squad, dark angels vets box etc.

Personally, when the next Space Wolf Codex comes out, I hope GW gives them the option to buy Bolt Rifles too or vice-versus gives regular Intercessors the option to add on an Astartes Chainsword. That way they would be the equivalent to "Primaris Grey Hunters".

 Eonfuzz wrote:
It's better than any other faction's troops, but is eclipsed in power by almost any other marine unit.

Assault intercessors are better than Harlequin troopes? Riiight....

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Personally, when the next Space Wolf Codex comes out, I hope GW gives them the option to buy Bolt Rifles too or vice-versus gives regular Intercessors the option to add on an Astartes Chainsword. That way they would be the equivalent to "Primaris Grey Hunters".

I think these are your Grey Hunters. I think you're going to have to pick between almost a rifle pistols+ chainsword or definitely a rifle.

I'd also guess these will be the Primaris Sword Brethren.

Your supplement will probably have Old Marine Grey Hunters, theirs will probably have old marine Brethren + Optional Neophyte Squads.

I see you guys getting Cents and what all else you didn't have before, and I also see everyone getting some of your stuff especially if it crosses multiple supplements

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Wasn't the most recent number 28% or 32% or something from the tournament data?
In the middle of a marine dominated meta?
Is 28% a majority now?

That's over a quarter, in a game with factions going into double figures. "Majority" doesn't mean over 50%, it just means the most popular in a given set. So yes, absolutely, Marines are currently a majority.

Considering that the figure of 28% accounts for the combination of what are currently 5/24 published codexes (Space Marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Dark Angels) given perfectly even representation of all codexes, you would expect 20.8% to be marines.

It's this bizarre dance that marine players do where depending on the question being asked they want to be considered as multiple codexes or the same codex.

Do marines have too many model releases?

Well, we have to consider marines to be 5 codexes! Since they all use the primaris models collectively, it's not an out of whack model release schedule at all!

Are marines overpowered?

Well, we have to consider the win percentages of all the various marine factions together, including the ones that have fewer of the most powerful rules like Deathwatch, who don't get their own psychic power list, only get basic doctrines, don't get Bolter Discipline on their special ammo they pay more points for, etc! Their 30% winrate must be folded in to marines' overall winrate to be "fair"!

Are marines overrepresented in competitive play?

Why, no, marines are five codexes now again! They're just barely over the expected average!

It's different arguments with different people, it's not some central body publishing when marines should be considered separate or otherwise.

Personal takes:

Each codex/supplement should be considered separate regards power levels and tourney results. The releases are fair due to the large number of players and codex the models covered, likewise if they wanted a fully fleshed out Primaris line they needed more stuff adding but are pretty much there now.

Again Historically when looking at releases, people kick off about new marine kits that all those various factions can use, but nobody kicked up a massive stink when we had separate kits and releases for tac squads, grey hunters, blood angels tac squad, dark angels vets box etc.

Probably because back then, marines were 5 separate codexes that "took their turn" in the model release schedule.

Looking back at 6th/7th, you basically had a codex release, and you'd get 3-4 kits, and GW would cycle thru:

-Marines
-then Chaos Marines
-Then Orks
-Then Blood Angels
-Then Space Wolves
-Then Eldar
-Then Guard

they accounted for the massive popularity of marines by splintering the marine playerbase into the various sub-codexes so that marines "counted as" five (or six) codexes instead of just 1.

The reason for the grumblings and frustration currently is because we're rounding the corner on year 2 of nonstop slathering of attention on just the marine factions. First we got the Shadowspear release, which then got spaced out with the full kit releases for everything+the new vehicles. Then we got supplements, which made Codex: Space Marines 1, the only codex to get a full second revision pass in 8th edition, and 2, that 2.0 release had 6x the rules content of any other codex with the supplements.

Then there was psychic awakening, where the marine factions got MUCH more in-depth updates than the various other factions got. You just have to compare the Drukhari or GSC update for a couple seconds with the GK, BA, SW, etc update to see the difference immediately.

And then after that, marines again with indomitus! Also, marines 3.0 codex incoming! that's right kids it's 40k's first ever BACK TO BACK codex release!

Since the introduction of primaris, marines have not felt like 5 separate codexes following the same release schedule as everyone else. They've felt like one uber-faction getting over 50% of the releases and attention, and to pour salt in the wound they've been the competitive army to beat for the past year with 7th ed eldar level rules.

You absolutely would have seen this level of rage if during the height of the eldar meta in 7th we got back to back to back eldar model releases, keeping anyone from ever forgetting about the existence of eldar for 5 seconds.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Wasn't the most recent number 28% or 32% or something from the tournament data?
In the middle of a marine dominated meta?
Is 28% a majority now?

That's over a quarter, in a game with factions going into double figures. "Majority" doesn't mean over 50%, it just means the most popular in a given set. So yes, absolutely, Marines are currently a majority.

Considering that the figure of 28% accounts for the combination of what are currently 5/24 published codexes (Space Marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Dark Angels) given perfectly even representation of all codexes, you would expect 20.8% to be marines.

It's this bizarre dance that marine players do where depending on the question being asked they want to be considered as multiple codexes or the same codex.

Do marines have too many model releases?

Well, we have to consider marines to be 5 codexes! Since they all use the primaris models collectively, it's not an out of whack model release schedule at all!

Are marines overpowered?

Well, we have to consider the win percentages of all the various marine factions together, including the ones that have fewer of the most powerful rules like Deathwatch, who don't get their own psychic power list, only get basic doctrines, don't get Bolter Discipline on their special ammo they pay more points for, etc! Their 30% winrate must be folded in to marines' overall winrate to be "fair"!

Are marines overrepresented in competitive play?

Why, no, marines are five codexes now again! They're just barely over the expected average!

This is a pretty circular argument you are making. "Marines" is not an army when speaking from a standpoint of competitive balance. Each supplement is a different army because their rules are vastly different. They share the same units for the most part though so this equates to more people buying those models. Most marine players want less special snowflake chapter rules like supplements. At least I know I would - marines chapters should not differ as much as they do. Maybe it's just because I play "Vanilla" marines that I feel that way.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Wasn't the most recent number 28% or 32% or something from the tournament data?
In the middle of a marine dominated meta?
Is 28% a majority now?

That's over a quarter, in a game with factions going into double figures. "Majority" doesn't mean over 50%, it just means the most popular in a given set. So yes, absolutely, Marines are currently a majority.

Considering that the figure of 28% accounts for the combination of what are currently 5/24 published codexes (Space Marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Dark Angels) given perfectly even representation of all codexes, you would expect 20.8% to be marines.

It's this bizarre dance that marine players do where depending on the question being asked they want to be considered as multiple codexes or the same codex.

Do marines have too many model releases?

Well, we have to consider marines to be 5 codexes! Since they all use the primaris models collectively, it's not an out of whack model release schedule at all!

Are marines overpowered?

Well, we have to consider the win percentages of all the various marine factions together, including the ones that have fewer of the most powerful rules like Deathwatch, who don't get their own psychic power list, only get basic doctrines, don't get Bolter Discipline on their special ammo they pay more points for, etc! Their 30% winrate must be folded in to marines' overall winrate to be "fair"!

Are marines overrepresented in competitive play?

Why, no, marines are five codexes now again! They're just barely over the expected average!

This is a pretty circular argument you are making. "Marines" is not an army when speaking from a standpoint of competitive balance. Each supplement is a different army because their rules are vastly different. They share the same units for the most part though so this equates to more people buying those models. Most marine players want less special snowflake chapter rules like supplements. At least I know I would - marines chapters should not differ as much as they do. Maybe it's just because I play "Vanilla" marines that I feel that way.

I'm in complete agreement. I would love nothing more than for Marines 3.0 to carve the special snowflake BS back to the level of subfaction distinction that you see between ork clans, eldar craftworlds or guard regiments.

Also, how 'bout they follow the same rules everyone else does for custom subfactions, considering the obvious powergaming potential of getting to tailor your detachment rules?

the_scotsman wrote:


I'm in complete agreement. I would love nothing more than for Marines 3.0 to carve the special snowflake BS back to the level of subfaction distinction that you see between ork clans, eldar craftworlds or guard regiments.

Also, how 'bout they follow the same rules everyone else does for custom subfactions, considering the obvious powergaming potential of getting to tailor your detachment rules?

I"m not sure where Eldar are right now, but I suspect I'd rather go the other way. I want Deathwing or Ravenwing or Deathwing AND Ravenwing to be able to make armies with Batallions and ObSec that work. White Scar Bikers, or Wild Rider jetbike armies should be a valid functional thing too. I think Tau have a subfaction like this too.. something to do with Firewarriors and Shas'Someone'Or'Other. I don't even know what it is, but make that work too. The more different functional lists a faction can make, the happier I am.

The dangers of taking a simple dictionary definition... ok, I was mistaken on the meaning of "majority".
Let's call it "dominating" or "most popular" instead.

Let's face it, the prevalence of Primaris units in competitive Marine lists means there isn't that much functional difference between the Codex Chapters. The difference between taking Mephiston or Calgar in a list that's otherwise made up of Intercessors, Eliminators, Aggressors and so on is no more a difference than taking an Avatar instead of a Farseer - and most Codexes have an equivalent for the extra Chapter Tactics, like Klans or Septs.
To my mind, that means that really we have 3 Marine 'factions' worth considering as different. Marines, Space Wolves and Deathwatch. I realise that's an individual judgement call, though - and I'd be interested to see how that 28% (or whatever) is broken down when accounting for Wolves, Deathwatch and any non-Primaris lists.