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Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






 Platuan4th wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
In my ideal world, non god worshipping CSM armies would be released in a codex that included more of the loyalist-specific stuff in it, to make up for the relative lack of options compared to the god worshipping legions.

End of the day, I think Chaos will end up in the exact spot Space Marines currently are: One central book that includes ALLLLLLL the datasheets and stuff everyone gets, and then a spinoff supplement for the various legions.

But yeah if you gave me the choice I'd have there be 5 chaos books, with one being some chaos stuff and some imperial stuff (more vehicles, dreadnought variants, flyers, etc so not everything has to be a daemon engine) and that would include legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Renegade chapters that aren't explicitly god-aligned, stuff like that. And then you'd have a daemonkin book for each god.


I'm not sold on supplements for chaos, there are more unique entries for death guard than blood angels and dark angels combined as a guess off top of my head.


Combined between the Angels, they have about twice as many Unique units than Death Guard do.


Death Guard have 15 unique units, including those which are just DG version of generic units, like blightlords or plague casters.
Dark Angels have 21 unique units, ignoring those who only differ in name and minor keywords (masters, deathwing tartaros, ravenwing speeders)
Blood Angels have 18 unique units

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




 Hollow wrote:
Quick everybody! build up your unrealistic expectations so that you can moan, groan and complain on the day about it being "underwhelming".


I fully expect underwhelming here. Most of it will be the models we've already seen with an extra detail or two, plus the primaris 'land speeder.' And some vague yammering about the crusade rules in the two books.

They're playing catch up, and this stuff has been on the release block for two months now. People honestly want to move on past the SM and Necron releases (and the known stuff for everything else) whether GW is ready or not. In all fairness it's completely understandable that they're not, but it doesn't make for interesting previews.

They started these reveals too early, and another hyped 'big preview' with still a month to go is a mistake.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/08 14:23:51


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






I just want to see all the new marine kits that will come with the codex. Some insight into the codex would be welcome too.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in fi
Crazed Wardancer





Voss wrote:
 Hollow wrote:
Quick everybody! build up your unrealistic expectations so that you can moan, groan and complain on the day about it being "underwhelming".


I fully expect underwhelming here. Most of it will be the models we've already seen with an extra detail or two, plus the primaris 'land speeder.' And some vague yammering about the crusade rules in the two books.

They're playing catch up, and this stuff has been on the release block for two months now. People honestly want to move on past the SM and Necron releases (and the known stuff for everything else) whether GW is ready or not. In all fairness it's completely understandable that they're not, but it doesn't make for interesting previews.

They started these reveals too early, and another hyped 'big preview' with still a month to go is a mistake.
In fairness, they don't seem to me massively overhyping it this time. The current language is just "oh, hey, if you want to see some new stuff, there will be some new stuff", rather than it being the biggest most exciting preview in the history of previews.
   
Made in gb
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





I think he said you're all supposed to build hype and then start crying during / after the reveals. You've started the crying part way too early.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

JWBS wrote:
I think he said you're all supposed to build hype and then start crying during / after the reveals. You've started the crying part way too early.


Some of them haven't stopped since the last time

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
In my ideal world, non god worshipping CSM armies would be released in a codex that included more of the loyalist-specific stuff in it, to make up for the relative lack of options compared to the god worshipping legions.

End of the day, I think Chaos will end up in the exact spot Space Marines currently are: One central book that includes ALLLLLLL the datasheets and stuff everyone gets, and then a spinoff supplement for the various legions.

But yeah if you gave me the choice I'd have there be 5 chaos books, with one being some chaos stuff and some imperial stuff (more vehicles, dreadnought variants, flyers, etc so not everything has to be a daemon engine) and that would include legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Renegade chapters that aren't explicitly god-aligned, stuff like that. And then you'd have a daemonkin book for each god.


I'm not sold on supplements for chaos, there are more unique entries for death guard than blood angels and dark angels combined as a guess off top of my head.


Dark Angels units I can find that are statistically different than their vanilla counterparts (not just names/keywords): asmodai azrael belial ezekiel lazarus talonmaster sammael on sableclaw sammael on corvex deathwing ancient/apothecary/champion deathwing terminators deathwing knights ravenwing ancient/apothecary/champion ravenwing bike squad ravenwing black knights ravenwing land speeder ravenwing attack bike ravenwing vengeance ravenwing darkshroud nephilim and dark talon.

24 datasheets

Death Guard units that are unique: mortarion typhus lord of contagion malignant plaguecaster plague marines poxwalkers biologis putrifier blightlord terminators deathshroud terminators foul blightspawn plague surgeon tallyman fetid bloatdrone myphitic blight hauler plagueburst crawler

14 datasheets.

Not even close. I haven't combed through blood angels, but I suspect the results would be similar. Again this is only counting stuff where the actual datasheets need to be reprinted to include unique rules like "Jink" on the Ravenwing Land Speeder datasheet or the varying access to weaponry on the Deathwing terminator datasheet, and not stuff that just has slightly altered names like "Interrogator-Chaplain" that can use the same datasheet as a chaplain.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
In my ideal world, non god worshipping CSM armies would be released in a codex that included more of the loyalist-specific stuff in it, to make up for the relative lack of options compared to the god worshipping legions.

End of the day, I think Chaos will end up in the exact spot Space Marines currently are: One central book that includes ALLLLLLL the datasheets and stuff everyone gets, and then a spinoff supplement for the various legions.

But yeah if you gave me the choice I'd have there be 5 chaos books, with one being some chaos stuff and some imperial stuff (more vehicles, dreadnought variants, flyers, etc so not everything has to be a daemon engine) and that would include legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Renegade chapters that aren't explicitly god-aligned, stuff like that. And then you'd have a daemonkin book for each god.


I'm not sold on supplements for chaos, there are more unique entries for death guard than blood angels and dark angels combined as a guess off top of my head.


Combined between the Angels, they have about twice as many Unique units than Death Guard do.


Death Guard have 15 unique units, including those which are just DG version of generic units, like blightlords or plague casters.
Dark Angels have 21 unique units, ignoring those who only differ in name and minor keywords (masters, deathwing tartaros, ravenwing speeders)
Blood Angels have 18 unique units


RW speeders/bikes/attack bikes actually are unique, they have the "Jink" ability on their datasheet.

I suppose you could put in a little "Keyword, unit name and extra rules" section at the beginning to handle them, as well as some of the space wolf units that get the Blood Claw 4+BS and bezerk charge rule. But I suspect GW would reprint the whole datasheet for the extra rules/weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's worth noting that

1) over half of the current datasheets legal within death guard are reprints from the generic CSM list

2) There have been many questions about WHY exactly many ancillary units like bikers, obliterators, raptors etc that people had in their decades-old death guard armies suddenly stopped being available options for the DG in their new 'dex.

Are DG now immune to the Obliterator virus? Why? Why would they not embrace it as one of nurgle's gifts?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/08 15:01:55


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in nl
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller






your mind

Anybody know where I can find more about that Vertigus box?

   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




the_scotsman wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
In my ideal world, non god worshipping CSM armies would be released in a codex that included more of the loyalist-specific stuff in it, to make up for the relative lack of options compared to the god worshipping legions.

End of the day, I think Chaos will end up in the exact spot Space Marines currently are: One central book that includes ALLLLLLL the datasheets and stuff everyone gets, and then a spinoff supplement for the various legions.

But yeah if you gave me the choice I'd have there be 5 chaos books, with one being some chaos stuff and some imperial stuff (more vehicles, dreadnought variants, flyers, etc so not everything has to be a daemon engine) and that would include legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Renegade chapters that aren't explicitly god-aligned, stuff like that. And then you'd have a daemonkin book for each god.


I'm not sold on supplements for chaos, there are more unique entries for death guard than blood angels and dark angels combined as a guess off top of my head.


Dark Angels units I can find that are statistically different than their vanilla counterparts (not just names/keywords): asmodai azrael belial ezekiel lazarus talonmaster sammael on sableclaw sammael on corvex deathwing ancient/apothecary/champion deathwing terminators deathwing knights ravenwing ancient/apothecary/champion ravenwing bike squad ravenwing black knights ravenwing land speeder ravenwing attack bike ravenwing vengeance ravenwing darkshroud nephilim and dark talon.

24 datasheets

Death Guard units that are unique: mortarion typhus lord of contagion malignant plaguecaster plague marines poxwalkers biologis putrifier blightlord terminators deathshroud terminators foul blightspawn plague surgeon tallyman fetid bloatdrone myphitic blight hauler plagueburst crawler

14 datasheets.

Not even close. I haven't combed through blood angels, but I suspect the results would be similar. Again this is only counting stuff where the actual datasheets need to be reprinted to include unique rules like "Jink" on the Ravenwing Land Speeder datasheet or the varying access to weaponry on the Deathwing terminator datasheet, and not stuff that just has slightly altered names like "Interrogator-Chaplain" that can use the same datasheet as a chaplain.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
In my ideal world, non god worshipping CSM armies would be released in a codex that included more of the loyalist-specific stuff in it, to make up for the relative lack of options compared to the god worshipping legions.

End of the day, I think Chaos will end up in the exact spot Space Marines currently are: One central book that includes ALLLLLLL the datasheets and stuff everyone gets, and then a spinoff supplement for the various legions.

But yeah if you gave me the choice I'd have there be 5 chaos books, with one being some chaos stuff and some imperial stuff (more vehicles, dreadnought variants, flyers, etc so not everything has to be a daemon engine) and that would include legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Renegade chapters that aren't explicitly god-aligned, stuff like that. And then you'd have a daemonkin book for each god.


I'm not sold on supplements for chaos, there are more unique entries for death guard than blood angels and dark angels combined as a guess off top of my head.


Combined between the Angels, they have about twice as many Unique units than Death Guard do.


Death Guard have 15 unique units, including those which are just DG version of generic units, like blightlords or plague casters.
Dark Angels have 21 unique units, ignoring those who only differ in name and minor keywords (masters, deathwing tartaros, ravenwing speeders)
Blood Angels have 18 unique units


RW speeders/bikes/attack bikes actually are unique, they have the "Jink" ability on their datasheet.

I suppose you could put in a little "Keyword, unit name and extra rules" section at the beginning to handle them, as well as some of the space wolf units that get the Blood Claw 4+BS and bezerk charge rule. But I suspect GW would reprint the whole datasheet for the extra rules/weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's worth noting that

1) over half of the current datasheets legal within death guard are reprints from the generic CSM list

2) There have been many questions about WHY exactly many ancillary units like bikers, obliterators, raptors etc that people had in their decades-old death guard armies suddenly stopped being available options for the DG in their new 'dex.

Are DG now immune to the Obliterator virus? Why? Why would they not embrace it as one of nurgle's gifts?


The obliterator virus thing is a bit weird, there are references to mortation helping develop it in the codex iirc, yet the original was a khornate gift to an iron warrior.

Real reason was probably to try and make the army a little more unique and have a negative rather than just being chaos marines with free stuff on top ala space marines.

Assume they became a supplement, they'd logically get all the chaos marine entries back. At that point where is the incentive for playing a none-legion? You just enter the space marine problem again.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







the_scotsman wrote:
....Though I would like to see Renegades as a separate book with access to all the imperial equipment, or even a "Brood Brothers' Style rule that allows you to bring stuff like Primaris, the loyalist-specific guns and tanks and things, over to chaos.


So you want Chaos to get everything Chaos has, plus (in terms of SM, at least) everything bar SC (and maybe Chapter-specific units) that the Imperium has?

Yeah, feth that noise.

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 Dysartes wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
....Though I would like to see Renegades as a separate book with access to all the imperial equipment, or even a "Brood Brothers' Style rule that allows you to bring stuff like Primaris, the loyalist-specific guns and tanks and things, over to chaos.


So you want Chaos to get everything Chaos has, plus (in terms of SM, at least) everything bar SC (and maybe Chapter-specific units) that the Imperium has?

Yeah, feth that noise.


I mean, if it's anything like how Brood Brothers works, you would literally just have to make it so they don't get doctrines (you know, like how chaos stuff currently is) and it'd never be a competitive option.

Just an option for people who want something that it would make perfect sense fluff-wise for renegades to have.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
In my ideal world, non god worshipping CSM armies would be released in a codex that included more of the loyalist-specific stuff in it, to make up for the relative lack of options compared to the god worshipping legions.

End of the day, I think Chaos will end up in the exact spot Space Marines currently are: One central book that includes ALLLLLLL the datasheets and stuff everyone gets, and then a spinoff supplement for the various legions.

But yeah if you gave me the choice I'd have there be 5 chaos books, with one being some chaos stuff and some imperial stuff (more vehicles, dreadnought variants, flyers, etc so not everything has to be a daemon engine) and that would include legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Renegade chapters that aren't explicitly god-aligned, stuff like that. And then you'd have a daemonkin book for each god.


I'm not sold on supplements for chaos, there are more unique entries for death guard than blood angels and dark angels combined as a guess off top of my head.


Dark Angels units I can find that are statistically different than their vanilla counterparts (not just names/keywords): asmodai azrael belial ezekiel lazarus talonmaster sammael on sableclaw sammael on corvex deathwing ancient/apothecary/champion deathwing terminators deathwing knights ravenwing ancient/apothecary/champion ravenwing bike squad ravenwing black knights ravenwing land speeder ravenwing attack bike ravenwing vengeance ravenwing darkshroud nephilim and dark talon.

24 datasheets

Death Guard units that are unique: mortarion typhus lord of contagion malignant plaguecaster plague marines poxwalkers biologis putrifier blightlord terminators deathshroud terminators foul blightspawn plague surgeon tallyman fetid bloatdrone myphitic blight hauler plagueburst crawler

14 datasheets.

Not even close. I haven't combed through blood angels, but I suspect the results would be similar. Again this is only counting stuff where the actual datasheets need to be reprinted to include unique rules like "Jink" on the Ravenwing Land Speeder datasheet or the varying access to weaponry on the Deathwing terminator datasheet, and not stuff that just has slightly altered names like "Interrogator-Chaplain" that can use the same datasheet as a chaplain.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
In my ideal world, non god worshipping CSM armies would be released in a codex that included more of the loyalist-specific stuff in it, to make up for the relative lack of options compared to the god worshipping legions.

End of the day, I think Chaos will end up in the exact spot Space Marines currently are: One central book that includes ALLLLLLL the datasheets and stuff everyone gets, and then a spinoff supplement for the various legions.

But yeah if you gave me the choice I'd have there be 5 chaos books, with one being some chaos stuff and some imperial stuff (more vehicles, dreadnought variants, flyers, etc so not everything has to be a daemon engine) and that would include legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Renegade chapters that aren't explicitly god-aligned, stuff like that. And then you'd have a daemonkin book for each god.


I'm not sold on supplements for chaos, there are more unique entries for death guard than blood angels and dark angels combined as a guess off top of my head.


Combined between the Angels, they have about twice as many Unique units than Death Guard do.


Death Guard have 15 unique units, including those which are just DG version of generic units, like blightlords or plague casters.
Dark Angels have 21 unique units, ignoring those who only differ in name and minor keywords (masters, deathwing tartaros, ravenwing speeders)
Blood Angels have 18 unique units


RW speeders/bikes/attack bikes actually are unique, they have the "Jink" ability on their datasheet.

I suppose you could put in a little "Keyword, unit name and extra rules" section at the beginning to handle them, as well as some of the space wolf units that get the Blood Claw 4+BS and bezerk charge rule. But I suspect GW would reprint the whole datasheet for the extra rules/weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's worth noting that

1) over half of the current datasheets legal within death guard are reprints from the generic CSM list

2) There have been many questions about WHY exactly many ancillary units like bikers, obliterators, raptors etc that people had in their decades-old death guard armies suddenly stopped being available options for the DG in their new 'dex.

Are DG now immune to the Obliterator virus? Why? Why would they not embrace it as one of nurgle's gifts?


The obliterator virus thing is a bit weird, there are references to mortation helping develop it in the codex iirc, yet the original was a khornate gift to an iron warrior.

Real reason was probably to try and make the army a little more unique and have a negative rather than just being chaos marines with free stuff on top ala space marines.

Assume they became a supplement, they'd logically get all the chaos marine entries back. At that point where is the incentive for playing a none-legion? You just enter the space marine problem again.


You know, like how all the competitive space marine lists are only Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels?

oh no wait they aren't that, because the distinction between the Space Wolves chapter tactic and the generic marine chapter tactics allows for those armies to have access to the full or nearly the full marine unit roster while not being overpowering, and you still have plnety of reasons to want to bring any chapter despite all chapters having access to the same shared units.

it was dumb when there were units that ONLY "not blood angels/spacewolves/dark angels" chapters got. I'm sorry. letting Dark Angels have Hunters/Stalkers changed precisely nothing.

And just to preempt the counterargument "but what about muh thunderwolves" yes. Sure. Fine. let everyone have space marine cavalry. it's a big universe. You come up with the reason. Who cares.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/09 00:28:02


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





Giving the Loyalist stuff to Renegades would be terrible. I don't play this game. It would still be terrible though.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
In my ideal world, non god worshipping CSM armies would be released in a codex that included more of the loyalist-specific stuff in it, to make up for the relative lack of options compared to the god worshipping legions.

End of the day, I think Chaos will end up in the exact spot Space Marines currently are: One central book that includes ALLLLLLL the datasheets and stuff everyone gets, and then a spinoff supplement for the various legions.

But yeah if you gave me the choice I'd have there be 5 chaos books, with one being some chaos stuff and some imperial stuff (more vehicles, dreadnought variants, flyers, etc so not everything has to be a daemon engine) and that would include legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Renegade chapters that aren't explicitly god-aligned, stuff like that. And then you'd have a daemonkin book for each god.


I'm not sold on supplements for chaos, there are more unique entries for death guard than blood angels and dark angels combined as a guess off top of my head.


Dark Angels units I can find that are statistically different than their vanilla counterparts (not just names/keywords): asmodai azrael belial ezekiel lazarus talonmaster sammael on sableclaw sammael on corvex deathwing ancient/apothecary/champion deathwing terminators deathwing knights ravenwing ancient/apothecary/champion ravenwing bike squad ravenwing black knights ravenwing land speeder ravenwing attack bike ravenwing vengeance ravenwing darkshroud nephilim and dark talon.

24 datasheets

Death Guard units that are unique: mortarion typhus lord of contagion malignant plaguecaster plague marines poxwalkers biologis putrifier blightlord terminators deathshroud terminators foul blightspawn plague surgeon tallyman fetid bloatdrone myphitic blight hauler plagueburst crawler

14 datasheets.

Not even close. I haven't combed through blood angels, but I suspect the results would be similar. Again this is only counting stuff where the actual datasheets need to be reprinted to include unique rules like "Jink" on the Ravenwing Land Speeder datasheet or the varying access to weaponry on the Deathwing terminator datasheet, and not stuff that just has slightly altered names like "Interrogator-Chaplain" that can use the same datasheet as a chaplain.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
In my ideal world, non god worshipping CSM armies would be released in a codex that included more of the loyalist-specific stuff in it, to make up for the relative lack of options compared to the god worshipping legions.

End of the day, I think Chaos will end up in the exact spot Space Marines currently are: One central book that includes ALLLLLLL the datasheets and stuff everyone gets, and then a spinoff supplement for the various legions.

But yeah if you gave me the choice I'd have there be 5 chaos books, with one being some chaos stuff and some imperial stuff (more vehicles, dreadnought variants, flyers, etc so not everything has to be a daemon engine) and that would include legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Renegade chapters that aren't explicitly god-aligned, stuff like that. And then you'd have a daemonkin book for each god.


I'm not sold on supplements for chaos, there are more unique entries for death guard than blood angels and dark angels combined as a guess off top of my head.


Combined between the Angels, they have about twice as many Unique units than Death Guard do.


Death Guard have 15 unique units, including those which are just DG version of generic units, like blightlords or plague casters.
Dark Angels have 21 unique units, ignoring those who only differ in name and minor keywords (masters, deathwing tartaros, ravenwing speeders)
Blood Angels have 18 unique units


RW speeders/bikes/attack bikes actually are unique, they have the "Jink" ability on their datasheet.

I suppose you could put in a little "Keyword, unit name and extra rules" section at the beginning to handle them, as well as some of the space wolf units that get the Blood Claw 4+BS and bezerk charge rule. But I suspect GW would reprint the whole datasheet for the extra rules/weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's worth noting that

1) over half of the current datasheets legal within death guard are reprints from the generic CSM list

2) There have been many questions about WHY exactly many ancillary units like bikers, obliterators, raptors etc that people had in their decades-old death guard armies suddenly stopped being available options for the DG in their new 'dex.

Are DG now immune to the Obliterator virus? Why? Why would they not embrace it as one of nurgle's gifts?


The obliterator virus thing is a bit weird, there are references to mortation helping develop it in the codex iirc, yet the original was a khornate gift to an iron warrior.

Real reason was probably to try and make the army a little more unique and have a negative rather than just being chaos marines with free stuff on top ala space marines.

Assume they became a supplement, they'd logically get all the chaos marine entries back. At that point where is the incentive for playing a none-legion? You just enter the space marine problem again.


You know, like how all the competitive space marine lists are only Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels?

oh no wait they aren't that, because the distinction between the Space Wolves chapter tactic and the generic marine chapter tactics allows for those armies to have access to the full or nearly the full marine unit roster while not being overpowering, and you still have plnety of reasons to want to bring any chapter despite all chapters having access to the same shared units.

it was dumb when there were units that ONLY "not blood angels/spacewolves/dark angels" chapters got. I'm sorry. letting Dark Angels have Hunters/Stalkers changed precisely nothing.

And just to preempt the counterargument "but what about muh thunderwolves" yes. Sure. Fine. let everyone have space marine cavalry. it's a big universe. You come up with the reason. Who cares.


Easy tiger, it sounds almost like you really missed the point.

Chaos legions are supposed to be more diverse than space marines, if you start applying space marine logic you end up with a heretic startes codex where my custom warband can take what it likes from the various legions, have amazing traits and an extra supplement of content in top. That never ended badly or enraged people for 12 months right?
   
Made in jp
Bounding Assault Marine




Stuck in the snow.

the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
In my ideal world, non god worshipping CSM armies would be released in a codex that included more of the loyalist-specific stuff in it, to make up for the relative lack of options compared to the god worshipping legions.

End of the day, I think Chaos will end up in the exact spot Space Marines currently are: One central book that includes ALLLLLLL the datasheets and stuff everyone gets, and then a spinoff supplement for the various legions.

But yeah if you gave me the choice I'd have there be 5 chaos books, with one being some chaos stuff and some imperial stuff (more vehicles, dreadnought variants, flyers, etc so not everything has to be a daemon engine) and that would include legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Renegade chapters that aren't explicitly god-aligned, stuff like that. And then you'd have a daemonkin book for each god.


I'm not sold on supplements for chaos, there are more unique entries for death guard than blood angels and dark angels combined as a guess off top of my head.


Dark Angels units I can find that are statistically different than their vanilla counterparts (not just names/keywords): asmodai azrael belial ezekiel lazarus talonmaster sammael on sableclaw sammael on corvex deathwing ancient/apothecary/champion deathwing terminators deathwing knights ravenwing ancient/apothecary/champion ravenwing bike squad ravenwing black knights ravenwing land speeder ravenwing attack bike ravenwing vengeance ravenwing darkshroud nephilim and dark talon.

24 datasheets

Death Guard units that are unique: mortarion typhus lord of contagion malignant plaguecaster plague marines poxwalkers biologis putrifier blightlord terminators deathshroud terminators foul blightspawn plague surgeon tallyman fetid bloatdrone myphitic blight hauler plagueburst crawler

14 datasheets.

Not even close. I haven't combed through blood angels, but I suspect the results would be similar. Again this is only counting stuff where the actual datasheets need to be reprinted to include unique rules like "Jink" on the Ravenwing Land Speeder datasheet or the varying access to weaponry on the Deathwing terminator datasheet, and not stuff that just has slightly altered names like "Interrogator-Chaplain" that can use the same datasheet as a chaplain.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
In my ideal world, non god worshipping CSM armies would be released in a codex that included more of the loyalist-specific stuff in it, to make up for the relative lack of options compared to the god worshipping legions.

End of the day, I think Chaos will end up in the exact spot Space Marines currently are: One central book that includes ALLLLLLL the datasheets and stuff everyone gets, and then a spinoff supplement for the various legions.

But yeah if you gave me the choice I'd have there be 5 chaos books, with one being some chaos stuff and some imperial stuff (more vehicles, dreadnought variants, flyers, etc so not everything has to be a daemon engine) and that would include legions like Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Renegade chapters that aren't explicitly god-aligned, stuff like that. And then you'd have a daemonkin book for each god.


I'm not sold on supplements for chaos, there are more unique entries for death guard than blood angels and dark angels combined as a guess off top of my head.


Combined between the Angels, they have about twice as many Unique units than Death Guard do.


Death Guard have 15 unique units, including those which are just DG version of generic units, like blightlords or plague casters.
Dark Angels have 21 unique units, ignoring those who only differ in name and minor keywords (masters, deathwing tartaros, ravenwing speeders)
Blood Angels have 18 unique units


RW speeders/bikes/attack bikes actually are unique, they have the "Jink" ability on their datasheet.

I suppose you could put in a little "Keyword, unit name and extra rules" section at the beginning to handle them, as well as some of the space wolf units that get the Blood Claw 4+BS and bezerk charge rule. But I suspect GW would reprint the whole datasheet for the extra rules/weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's worth noting that

1) over half of the current datasheets legal within death guard are reprints from the generic CSM list

2) There have been many questions about WHY exactly many ancillary units like bikers, obliterators, raptors etc that people had in their decades-old death guard armies suddenly stopped being available options for the DG in their new 'dex.

Are DG now immune to the Obliterator virus? Why? Why would they not embrace it as one of nurgle's gifts?


The obliterator virus thing is a bit weird, there are references to mortation helping develop it in the codex iirc, yet the original was a khornate gift to an iron warrior.

Real reason was probably to try and make the army a little more unique and have a negative rather than just being chaos marines with free stuff on top ala space marines.

Assume they became a supplement, they'd logically get all the chaos marine entries back. At that point where is the incentive for playing a none-legion? You just enter the space marine problem again.


You know, like how all the competitive space marine lists are only Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels?

oh no wait they aren't that, because the distinction between the Space Wolves chapter tactic and the generic marine chapter tactics allows for those armies to have access to the full or nearly the full marine unit roster while not being overpowering, and you still have plnety of reasons to want to bring any chapter despite all chapters having access to the same shared units.

it was dumb when there were units that ONLY "not blood angels/spacewolves/dark angels" chapters got. I'm sorry. letting Dark Angels have Hunters/Stalkers changed precisely nothing.

And just to preempt the counterargument "but what about muh thunderwolves" yes. Sure. Fine. let everyone have space marine cavalry. it's a big universe. You come up with the reason. Who cares.


People who actually give a gak about the setting/lore or having faction choice meaningful?

I'm all for more options, customization, etc. being represented on the tabletop and I'll champion that for as long as I play 40k. However, there is nothing that says having drawbacks or lacking options of a neighbor faction is bad, and it is actually good in the case of Death Guard for helping reinforce their faction identity and making their playstyle distinct from standard chaos.

Just because older dexes let you take bikes, raptors, ect doesn't mean that DG MUST still get them, especially with expansion of the lore surrounding DG as well as the introduction of their own unique units to fill those roles. It makes them distinct from someone running a Nurgle CSM warband. (Though the standard CSM units in DG like Chaos Lords should absolutely gain all of the DG special rules. The fact that they already don't is moronic)

The same goes for people whining about Renegade marines not getting Imperial tech, the complaint as it usually plays out makes no sense. "I want to have all the Chaos things, but I also want all the loyalist things."
It just reduces the uniqueness of Space Marines (who themselves are already guilty of stealing much of the unique wargear from from other Imperium factions) and make CSM play even more like Spiky Marines then they already are. Plus it then screws over the Unaligned 5 because then still wouldn't/shouldn't gain access to any of it.

It people honestly want lore accurate/well designed renegades then it should work on a sort of sliding scale. Out of pool Y you can take X amount of Loyalist units and then Y-X amount of Chaos units, which represents the change a Renegade warband faces as it progresses through it's history. They start out with less knowledge/availability/willingness to use Chaos tech, but the longer they spend away from the Imperium the more their old armory gets destroyed and replaced with whatever they can get a hold of from the Dark Mechanicum.


The space marine codex special units issue is an entirely different beast because it gets into the argument of whether or not it's fair that only BA and DA get access to a lot of the specialist loadouts that marines players want for their own chapters (mainly veteran bikers, bike command squads, terminator command squads, psychic dreadnoughts). In lore this is supposed to be representative of the DA's Ravenwing being an incredibly well trained specialist formation (which is terrible logic when you consider that WS get no sort of equivalent) or by DA and BA hording lost STCs (command terminators and psy dreads) which just feels unfair to most other marine players.

But good luck getting GW to ever reevaluate those stances given that they molded BA and DA symbols all over those sprues, and the one thing GW is loathe to do is ever tell anyone to do any amount of minor hobbying in the pursuit of building their miniatures...
   
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 Jack Flask wrote:
It people honestly want lore accurate/well designed renegades then it should work on a sort of sliding scale. Out of pool Y you can take X amount of Loyalist units and then Y-X amount of Chaos units, which represents the change a Renegade warband faces as it progresses through it's history. They start out with less knowledge/availability/willingness to use Chaos tech, but the longer they spend away from the Imperium the more their old armory gets destroyed and replaced with whatever they can get a hold of from the Dark Mechanicum.


I think this is what most people want. Renegades should be a mix of commonly available units from both factions, but not a deep dive into the secret armories of either.

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> Just because older dexes let you take bikes, raptors, ect doesn't mean that DG MUST still get them

Ahem. Those of us who have armies that predate the current codex would like to still be able to use all our models. Especially because, if you do have something like Death Guard Bikers, they were painstakingly converted. 8th edition has been probably the worst edition in terms of invalidating old models, and 9th looks to be continuing that trend. One of the biggest draws, for me, of being a long-term 40k player was that my collection could be used to build the core of an army from one edition to the next, with additions from the new hotness. Recently I've found myself owning more and more models that I can't use, either in the way I used to, or in some cases at all. Especially across my three different Chaos armies. Ironically, people like me are also the ones that "actually give a gak about the setting/lore or having faction choice meaningful", which is why we went to the trouble of building special models to represent esoteric troop types that were (usually) not terribly efficient in game terms.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/08 20:20:59


 
   
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Going out on a limb, I have a hunch the preview won’t be non chaos god worshipping renegades who have access to all the loyalist stuff.

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I would be genuinely shocked if Chaos didn't come after the Crons/Marines.

Apologies to Xenos etc (as I do genuinely support you all) but Chaos is the arch villain of 40k (hell, all Warhammer) so any competent designers shouldn't really leave it too long before giving them the updated treatment.

In addition, they're the next most played faction behind loyalists (i think, contemporary source needed).

Furthermore, the rules updates with 2 wounds, weapons etc means efficiency (and marketing budget) wise, it would be best for CSM at least to get new dexes in November or December at the latest.

I'd not be surprised to see CD, DG, TS and maybe even a supplement for EC (considering the AOS goings on) at the same time or to be at least hinted at. DG won't be a major priority i'd guess as they're in an ok place rules wise and had the most recent PA treatment.

Here's hoping that Xenos get some much needed love first thing in the NY if not before!

Not going to speculate on what's going to change as it's just utterly wish listing. The four cards may hint that they could be releasing 5 books, 4 God specific with relevant daemons & legions and then one undivided with Abaddon etc.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/08 21:17:04


- 10,000 pts CSM  
   
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 Oryza Sativa wrote:
> Just because older dexes let you take bikes, raptors, ect doesn't mean that DG MUST still get them

Ahem. Those of us who have armies that predate the current codex would like to still be able to use all our models. Especially because, if you do have something like Death Guard Bikers, they were painstakingly converted. 8th edition has been probably the worst edition in terms of invalidating old models, and 9th looks to be continuing that trend. One of the biggest draws, for me, of being a long-term 40k player was that my collection could be used to build the core of an army from one edition to the next, with additions from the new hotness. Recently I've found myself owning more and more models that I can't use, either in the way I used to, or in some cases at all. Especially across my three different Chaos armies. Ironically, people like me are also the ones that "actually give a gak about the setting/lore or having faction choice meaningful", which is why we went to the trouble of building special models to represent esoteric troop types that were (usually) not terribly efficient in game terms.


Traditionally death guard had minimal bike and jetpack units, whilst they were restricted in the holy grail that is 3.5 it does say "the death guard are primarily infantry based and lack the specialised fast attack choices available to other chaos forces". The new book just reflects that a little better and given t6 bikers were a standard for a while they're hardly esoteric or under performing historically.
   
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Overall it would be interesting if new Codex structure meant a restructuring and smaller amount of Codizes. Though with Chaos I'm not sure how they could do that without actually ending up with the same amount of books. If you had one Codex for each god(with CSM, DG and Nurgle Daemons in one for example) that would be great for me, but people who played mixed armies would have to buy the same number of books as before.
I guess they could at least put CSM, DG, TS and Chaos Knights in one book without problems...
All in all GW loves their books and aside from a supplement System I don't think that the overall number will become smaller if it wasn't for a radical approach of all Chaos in 1 book, all Eldar in another one, Tyranids and Genestealers in a third, all Imperium but Space Marines in a forth...
   
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@scotsman:
CSM with no major god-affiliation lacking options? Dude, 2nd got you covered. CSM are allowed to field vehicles restricted to SM such as Whirlwinds & Landspeeders by just adding 50% to their respective points cost.

So why haven't you downloaded the Battle Bible by now?
   
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So we don't have any info of what's getting previewed whatsoever huh?

CaptainStabby wrote:
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 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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UK

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So we don't have any info of what's getting previewed whatsoever huh?


We know they are going to talk about the new Codex for Marines and Necrons and the "new format" and what that means. They might also tease the next codex to come after that since we fairly well know what's coming for those two forces by now. They also teased some models from other races last time with "bits" of them showing so we might see those in full detail (some or all of them).

Right now we know most things up to mid November. We've got a Warcry release with a new boxed set and two warbands; an expansion book for AoS; a new duel Slaanesh and Daughters of Khaine boxed set with a new model for each; Necrons and Marines are going to dominate October with a slew of releases and there's a new Necromunda House book and models to come.

   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So we don't have any info of what's getting previewed whatsoever huh?


Well....
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/07/new-edition-new-codex-format-new-models-new-preview/
"Want to learn more about what you can look forward to in the new Warhammer 40,000 codexes? Set a reminder for this Saturday to catch your first solid look at the new Space Marines and Necrons books, find out what’s coming next, and witness a few more miniatures reveals for good measure! "

So...
Mostly Codex SM and Codex Necrons, a few more 'reveals' (likely of things we've already seen+ 'primaris land speeder') and a glimpse of 'what's next'

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/11 16:14:47


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Voss wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So we don't have any info of what's getting previewed whatsoever huh?


Well....
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/07/new-edition-new-codex-format-new-models-new-preview/
"Want to learn more about what you can look forward to in the new Warhammer 40,000 codexes? Set a reminder for this Saturday to catch your first solid look at the new Space Marines and Necrons books, find out what’s coming next, and witness a few more miniatures reveals for good measure! "

So...
Mostly Codex SM and Codex Necrons, a few more 'reveals' (likely of things we've already seen+ 'primaris land speeder') and a glimpse of 'what's next'


There was the weird cryptic chaos tarot cards as well.
   
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Right behind you.

Warhammer Community Twitter Feed wrote:The Codex Show approaches… Tomorrow sees the most exciting Warhammer 40,000 preview since the launch of the new edition, with news on the future of codexes, new miniature reveals, and more! Whatever you do, don't miss out!


That's the most they've given us since the initial article. They have hinted that we'll see more from the teased non-Marine/Necron bits.
   
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...someone really needs to curtail GW Marketing's use of the words "most exciting", at least until they have earned the right to use them again.

We've been burned before, after all.

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Right behind you.

Meh. People are always going to find something to get disappointed about. GW is great at being pedantic though--the last preview, "Shadow and Iron"? They were upfront about that not being 40k heavy...and people got upset about it.
   
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UK

 Dysartes wrote:
...someone really needs to curtail GW Marketing's use of the words "most exciting", at least until they have earned the right to use them again.

We've been burned before, after all.


Is the issue that GW is overusing the marketing words or that geeks are not allowing their inner child to get excited enough?

Perhaps the issue is too much pessimism?

   
 
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