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 LordofHats wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Seems par for the course to me, how is this new at all? 40k has always had disturbing imagery, body horror, and grotesque morbid imagery permeated throughout its existence. Imagery of skulls, decapitated heads, daemons, sacrifices, xenos monsters, weaponry, blood spatter, twisted body parts, cybernetic horrors, self flaggelation, etc ad nauseum are replete throughout 40k rulebooks and codex art. Hell, the 4E imagery of the High Lords of Terra has half of them looking like horrific cybermonsters.


I feel like when I was playing in 5th and 6th, the art was so fetishy for skulls it became kind of funny. Kind of like where's Waldo but instead of finding Waldo it was all about finding something that didn't have a skull somewhere on it XD

Is that just me? Not complaining about creepy imagery, it totally fits the setting, but I look back at my old books and feel like the art for a time was more laughable in how it seemed to slap skulls on every surface it could than creepy. So throwing in more actual creepiness seems like an improvement XD Mountains of skulls haven't been creepy since Terminator.


There are periods in medieval cathedrals, the art, sculpture and engravings particularly, that are obsessed with depictions of death. GW's fixation with skulls and general cartoony-ness actually tones it down a little from the direction inspiration. More of a caricature of the real-world stuff people were actually fixated on.

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Not Online!!! wrote:
Like, why does the wall of martyerers, have so many bloody skulls on it...


Probably because it is a wall which is decorated with the bodies of fallen soldiers (the literal martyrs here).

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 Dysartes wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Like, why does the wall of martyerers, have so many bloody skulls on it...


Probably because it is a wall which is decorated with the bodies of fallen soldiers (the literal martyrs here).


There is something to be said about Moderation though.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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I don't know. Some of the churches in Eastern Europe can get especially metal!

like these ones and then theres the catacombs in Paris XD

It's actually kind of wild when you think about it that the Spanish found Aztec skull racks so hardcore, cause there's some churches like this in Spain. I guess I'm not sure if they existed before contact though XD

   
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Matt Swain wrote:The 40k rulebook is not. It's stuff people made up. The creators decided to make what looked like guns with fetuses on them. Just for gross points or shock value. Also even in 40k it doesn;t seem to make sense. It's just gross for shock value.
Yes - it's shocking and horrific.
That's the point.

It takes inspiration from the ossuaries, mausoleums, and other memento mori of the church, and turn it up to 11. It's *supposed* to be seen as stupid and irrational and downright barbaric to us, because that's what the Imperium *is*. It's drowned in symbols of death, martyrdom, eternal servitude to the state, and of the death of innocence. A cherub-like fetus attached to a gun is the most perfect encapsulation of that.

Like, it bears reinforcing that the Imperium are *not* the good guys here.

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I'm not sure I've read through a 40k rulebook that wasn't creapy to some degree.

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Karol wrote:
Casualty 792072 10932058 wrote:

Something similar used to happen in Ireland, but it tailed off a bit at least in part because people started pointing out the images were in fact of cat fetuses. Because human fetuses didn't look human enough to provoke the reaction they were angling for.

I mention this because the imagery above, while creepy, is also extremely stylised, further because of how it's coloured. It's not even clear if the faces are organic at all. They are shocking and strange, but they aren't clearly practical or biological realistic - the intention is entirely to evoke and disturb.



Oh I don't claim it isn't stylised or that I have big know how in the nature of fetuses, but to me it doesn't seem historical or creepy. When I was 2 years younger and my mom was still forcing me to go to church, I had to dingle a censer that would fit in to w40k. 3 baby faced buttom and the cap in form of a stylised wings. And in a big convent near us, there is a censer, which is still being used durning big festivities, that has the bottom in the shape of a females face and the top is a saints top of the skull inlaid in silver. Now DG on the other hand, those models are creepy as hell. Worse they make me remember how dead horse smells.


Like, why does the wall of martyerers, have so many bloody skulls on it...

Well there are those things in churchs called ossoariums or martyr walls, whole rooms made out of monk and priests bones and skulls. There are a few in Poland, and I know they are also in spain. Maybe it was inspired by that.


Like, Sedlech isn't unique in execution, just in preservation .
   
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Watch Fortress Excalibris

Of course GW are going to turn the creepy/horror aspect of the setting up to 11.

Without wanting to get too far into the dreaded politics/culture wars nonsense, GW recently became aware that there are... certain people out there who have come to see 40K as unironic pro-fascist propaganda. To the point that it was starting to damage GW's public image and might eventually have hurt its bottom line (remember that kids playing 40K in school clubs is a big part of GW's business model, at least in some countries).

That view was predicated on the Imperium being portrayed as not just the main protagonists in a setting with no good guys, but actually as the good guys.

GW inadvertently fuelled that wrong impression by bringing back Guilliman.

So they now need (or feel they need) to redress the balance.

Putting fetus-bolters in the new rulebook is their way of grabbing the reader firmly by the ears, shaking him until his teeth rattle, and screaming directly into his face: "The Imperium are not the good guys, you stupid numpty! They're monsters! Everybody in this setting is a monster, especially the humans! Stop idolising the Imperium and raving on the internet about how fascism is good actually! You absolute muppet!"

So expect to see more stuff showing that the Imperium is a total horror-show. Also expect Guilliman to get a serious dog-kicking moment before too long.

40K has never had a ruleset finely balanced enough for things like 'correct base size' or 'modelling for advantage' to be worth worrying about.

The tournament mindset is a cancer on the hobby.

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 Duskweaver wrote:
Of course GW are going to turn the creepy/horror aspect of the setting up to 11.

Without wanting to get too far into the dreaded politics/culture wars nonsense, GW recently became aware that there are... certain people out there who have come to see 40K as unironic pro-fascist propaganda. To the point that it was starting to damage GW's public image and might eventually have hurt its bottom line (remember that kids playing 40K in school clubs is a big part of GW's business model, at least in some countries).

That view was predicated on the Imperium being portrayed as not just the main protagonists in a setting with no good guys, but actually as the good guys.

GW inadvertently fuelled that wrong impression by bringing back Guilliman.

So they now need (or feel they need) to redress the balance.

Putting fetus-bolters in the new rulebook is their way of grabbing the reader firmly by the ears, shaking him until his teeth rattle, and screaming directly into his face: "The Imperium are not the good guys, you stupid numpty! They're monsters! Everybody in this setting is a monster, especially the humans! Stop idolising the Imperium and raving on the internet about how fascism is good actually! You absolute muppet!"

So expect to see more stuff showing that the Imperium is a total horror-show. Also expect Guilliman to get a serious dog-kicking moment before too long.


I think you're reading too much into cherubs and similar things that have always been around in 40K.
   
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Also if by turn up the setting to 11, making it an utter skullflanderisation of unimaginable proportions to the point that it get's ridiculed then yes that is accurate

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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on the forum. Obviously

 Duskweaver wrote:
Of course GW are going to turn the creepy/horror aspect of the setting up to 11.

Without wanting to get too far into the dreaded politics/culture wars nonsense, GW recently became aware that there are... certain people out there who have come to see 40K as unironic pro-fascist propaganda. To the point that it was starting to damage GW's public image and might eventually have hurt its bottom line (remember that kids playing 40K in school clubs is a big part of GW's business model, at least in some countries).

That view was predicated on the Imperium being portrayed as not just the main protagonists in a setting with no good guys, but actually as the good guys.

GW inadvertently fuelled that wrong impression by bringing back Guilliman.

So they now need (or feel they need) to redress the balance.

Putting fetus-bolters in the new rulebook is their way of grabbing the reader firmly by the ears, shaking him until his teeth rattle, and screaming directly into his face: "The Imperium are not the good guys, you stupid numpty! They're monsters! Everybody in this setting is a monster, especially the humans! Stop idolising the Imperium and raving on the internet about how fascism is good actually! You absolute muppet!"

So expect to see more stuff showing that the Imperium is a total horror-show. Also expect Guilliman to get a serious dog-kicking moment before too long.


I don't think there were that many people who actually believed that, and if they thought the IoM is fascist they need to revise the definition of fascism.
Authoritarian =/= Fascist (though Fascist = Authoritarian). Fascist is a very specific political and economic ideology that arose in the mid 20th century. Labeling the IoM as simply fascist is like calling the Tau simply communists.

If there is an attempt to "redress the balance", it is probably more due to criticism that 40k is becoming more sanitized, what with the kid orientated Warhammer Adventure series, the return of Guilleman and return of hope to the setting, and a semblance of the IoM not suffering any notable setback following Cadia.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Also if by turn up the setting to 11, making it an utter skullflanderisation of unimaginable proportions to the point that it get's ridiculed then yes that is accurate


Eh, kind of?
On one hand, it does kind of feels like what a studio does with a project when they are running out of ideas. You see it with Star Wars and the like. "Hey, Star Wars had a Death Star, so lets have an even bigger Death Star that can shoot multiple planets, and even more Jedis with force powers that somehow surpass those of Yoda, the strongest Jedi, so we can show off our shiny CGI effects!"

Though on the other hand, you do see some pretty impressive bits of sepulchral religious art. I mean, in the local castle there's a catholic priest's robe on display that has a big ol' skull on it.
And then you have places like Sedlec Ossuary. Once you take those in consideration, 40k's skull fetish simply looks cute.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Catulle wrote:
Karol wrote:
Casualty 792072 10932058 wrote:

Something similar used to happen in Ireland, but it tailed off a bit at least in part because people started pointing out the images were in fact of cat fetuses. Because human fetuses didn't look human enough to provoke the reaction they were angling for.

I mention this because the imagery above, while creepy, is also extremely stylised, further because of how it's coloured. It's not even clear if the faces are organic at all. They are shocking and strange, but they aren't clearly practical or biological realistic - the intention is entirely to evoke and disturb.



Oh I don't claim it isn't stylised or that I have big know how in the nature of fetuses, but to me it doesn't seem historical or creepy. When I was 2 years younger and my mom was still forcing me to go to church, I had to dingle a censer that would fit in to w40k. 3 baby faced buttom and the cap in form of a stylised wings. And in a big convent near us, there is a censer, which is still being used durning big festivities, that has the bottom in the shape of a females face and the top is a saints top of the skull inlaid in silver. Now DG on the other hand, those models are creepy as hell. Worse they make me remember how dead horse smells.


Like, why does the wall of martyerers, have so many bloody skulls on it...

Well there are those things in churchs called ossoariums or martyr walls, whole rooms made out of monk and priests bones and skulls. There are a few in Poland, and I know they are also in spain. Maybe it was inspired by that.


Like, Sedlech isn't unique in execution, just in preservation .


I love Sedlec. That place is metal as feth



This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/09/20 11:11:36


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Sgt. Cortez wrote:I think you're reading too much into cherubs and similar things that have always been around in 40K.

I'm talking about emphasis. Obviously those things have been there all along. But GW seems to want to make them more prominent now.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I don't think there were that many people who actually believed that,

Enough for GW to feel the need to put out an explicit statement telling them to feth off out of the hobby and making very clear that they don't advocate those kinds of beliefs or attitudes in the real world.

and if they thought the IoM is fascist they need to revise the definition of fascism. Authoritarian =/= Fascist (though Fascist = Authoritarian). Fascist is a very specific political and economic ideology that arose in the mid 20th century. Labeling the IoM as simply fascist is like calling the Tau simply communists.

Nobody cares about this sort of "well akshually" poli-sci definition. To most people, 'fascism' is just any authoritarian, militaristic regime that isn't obviously communist. That's how the term is used in like 99% of cases by the general public and even the mainstream media.

Snark aside, in a purely technical sense I agree with you. But I'm talking about general public perception, so technical definitions of terms like that are utterly irrelevant. To most people, the Imperium of Man 'looks' fascist, even if those of us who understand 20th century history and/or political science might 'know better'.

If there is an attempt to "redress the balance", it is probably more due to criticism that 40k is becoming more sanitized, what with the kid orientated Warhammer Adventure series, the return of Guilleman and return of hope to the setting, and a semblance of the IoM not suffering any notable setback following Cadia.

No, that's stuff only established fans of 40K care about. And they're already customers, so GW doesn't give a damn about their criticisms. What matters is what those outside the hobby think, because those are the people GW relies on to ensure they will still have customers tomorrow.

40K has never had a ruleset finely balanced enough for things like 'correct base size' or 'modelling for advantage' to be worth worrying about.

The tournament mindset is a cancer on the hobby.

Warhammer is for everyone... with a six-figure salary. 
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

 Duskweaver wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:I think you're reading too much into cherubs and similar things that have always been around in 40K.

I'm talking about emphasis. Obviously those things have been there all along. But GW seems to want to make them more prominent now.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I don't think there were that many people who actually believed that,

Enough for GW to feel the need to put out an explicit statement telling them to feth off out of the hobby and making very clear that they don't advocate those kinds of beliefs or attitudes in the real world.



Oh, you mean the statement that was released at a time when nearly every other company was releasing a similar statement? How very sincere.

Nobody cares about this sort of "well akshually" poli-sci definition. To most people, 'fascism' is just any authoritarian, militaristic regime that isn't obviously communist. That's how the term is used in like 99% of cases by the general public and even the mainstream media.

Snark aside, in a purely technical sense I agree with you. But I'm talking about general public perception, so technical definitions of terms like that are utterly irrelevant. To most people, the Imperium of Man 'looks' fascist, even if those of us who understand 20th century history and/or political science might 'know better'.


And those people are wrong, so to hell with them.
There were those who thought DnD and Harry Potter was devil worship, should we cater to them as well?
Its not a technical definition, its the proper bloody definition. Next you'll be telling me that anything with social services is communism.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

No, that's stuff only established fans of 40K care about. And they're already customers, so GW doesn't give a damn about their criticisms. What matters is what those outside the hobby think, because those are the people GW relies on to ensure they will still have customers tomorrow.


You know you can stop being a customer, right? Its within GW's best interest to care about their customers.
What people outside the hobby think is largely irrelevant. If that were truly the case, then DnD wouldn't have a fan base due to the satanic panic, neither would video games due to Jack Thompson, neither would metal due to Tipper Gore, and certainly not Judge Dredd, you know, one of the primary sources of inspiration for 40k.
40k has existed for 25+ years and is still doing quite well and the video game adaptations are fairly successful. I don't think those outside the hobby really care as much as you think. And besides, if they don't like the IoM, there's other factions to choose from.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/09/20 12:27:39


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 Sherrypie wrote:


This imagery is the heart of 40k, as well as the understanding of its sheer horror. Those pictures that show the brutal grind, oppression and squalor of its denizens tell a thousand stories with more humanity in them than any glorification of their "heroes" would.

I wonder how people would react if they saw our ortodox people wash the preserved body parts of saints, which are taken out for specific fests, and then everyone take the water home to bless people with it.

I guess that would be too hardcore too. Same as burning of the winter witch, hanging of the traitor on easters etc Most of the stuff predates christanity here. And according to my mother here great grandmother was a sheptucha. Which is my dad often called here family witchs

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Duskweaver wrote:
Of course GW are going to turn the creepy/horror aspect of the setting up to 11.

Without wanting to get too far into the dreaded politics/culture wars nonsense, GW recently became aware that there are... certain people out there who have come to see 40K as unironic pro-fascist propaganda. To the point that it was starting to damage GW's public image and might eventually have hurt its bottom line (remember that kids playing 40K in school clubs is a big part of GW's business model, at least in some countries).

That view was predicated on the Imperium being portrayed as not just the main protagonists in a setting with no good guys, but actually as the good guys.

GW inadvertently fuelled that wrong impression by bringing back Guilliman.

So they now need (or feel they need) to redress the balance.

Putting fetus-bolters in the new rulebook is their way of grabbing the reader firmly by the ears, shaking him until his teeth rattle, and screaming directly into his face: "The Imperium are not the good guys, you stupid numpty! They're monsters! Everybody in this setting is a monster, especially the humans! Stop idolising the Imperium and raving on the internet about how fascism is good actually! You absolute muppet!"

So expect to see more stuff showing that the Imperium is a total horror-show. Also expect Guilliman to get a serious dog-kicking moment before too long.


I don't think there were that many people who actually believed that, and if they thought the IoM is fascist they need to revise the definition of fascism.
Authoritarian =/= Fascist (though Fascist = Authoritarian). Fascist is a very specific political and economic ideology that arose in the mid 20th century. Labeling the IoM as simply fascist is like calling the Tau simply communists.

If there is an attempt to "redress the balance", it is probably more due to criticism that 40k is becoming more sanitized, what with the kid orientated Warhammer Adventure series, the return of Guilleman and return of hope to the setting, and a semblance of the IoM not suffering any notable setback following Cadia.


Well, I think there's actually a lot that allowsfor the Imperium to be classified as fascist.
It's militaristic, it's a dictatorship, either the emperor or Guilleman can be identified as duce/Führer, it is racist, its hatred against mutants mimics the "Euthanasie"program from nationalsocialism, it uses partly fascist iconography (you really shouldn't wear a Commissar uniform in Germany...), the whole approach to sacrifice and exterminatus can also be connected to fascist ideology.

That being said there's also the whole religious stuff in the imperium that is derived from christian monarchies in the middle ages. Though reading into some arguments from the churches in Germany during the NS reign and its connections to the pope one could even connect that to fascism as well.

I never understood how people came to see the Tau as communists, though... They have even less to do with communism than with fish, but I guess sometimes you can't stop internet memes...
   
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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

You know you can stop being a customer, right? Its within GW's best interest to care about their customers.
What people outside the hobby think is largely irrelevant.


With respect, this isn't true at all.

There have been a number of articles in high profile outlets about the issue of very nasty people glomming onto 40Ks language and iconography, some including former GW staff expressing these exact concerns, and like it or not, if that's the only mainstream exposure somebody has to 40k, that's a significant liability from GWs perspective.

GW's business model is entirely dependent on new players coming in for the first time every year and buying new armies, paints, tools and rulebooks as older players cycle out, branch out into non GW stuff, or start selling each other stuff as much as they're buying new. There's a reason GW started that kid friendly offshoot and sends stuff to schools - that steady pipeline in is vital and they know it. GW has not built the success it has now by selling more to the same people, it's done it by finding new ways to sell to new people

The kind of nuance you're relying on here as a backstop is irrelevant. You can argue that well, it's silly for douchebags to adopt the IOM as their mascots because in a White Dwarf short story in 1995 it said x; or that it's unfair for Joe Public to see a wider association between 40k and those people, but it makes no difference. The only thing anybody outside 40kland might recognise about the game is Space Marines, so how they're depicted, now, defines the game and its community in the public eye, and that public perception does matter.

It is not analogous to satanic panic because it's not a figment of anyone's imagination, the kind of numpties were talking about are themselves making youtube networks and message boards illustrating their presence. Whether we like it or not, they're there. It's demonstrably a fact, (and frankly I don't think any of us here can honestly say we haven't encountered folks thusly inclined either online or face to face.)

In all honesty then, Joe Public wouldn't be unreasonable in their concerns - who would want to send their kids into an ecosystem where gimps like that had put down roots and established themselves as influences? Why would any woman or POC want to dip a toe into a community that's home to people like that? You can only have one in the end, do you want the people who think the Imperium represent something they'd like to see reflected in the real world - or do you want literally everyone else?

GW is a commercial concern and it's entirely in their long term interest to grimdark the IOM back up. That suits me anyway as a 40k fan, because I find the Adidas sneaker aesthetic the Primaris stuff was skewing towards bland, and the ESH universe was a big part of the appeal for me, but I also welcome anything that might complicate or frustrate that reading or use of the lore.

The IoM should be dirty and superstitious and impractical, it should be unreasonable and crumbling and regressive, because it always has been. Slap babyheads on bolters, wild OUT on the servitors, have IoM factions squabble and fail at least as much as they win. Dirty up that squeaky clean. Remind everyone that making it possible to wipe out entire planets due to a bureaucratic temper tantrum is probably stupid, actually. Make it clear that IoM are an operatic caricature of authoritarianism; and above all, make it impossible to use them as any kind of moral fable about heroic strength or ugly necessity.

It seems to me like GW is doing a little more of that recently. Whether that's deliberate or a happy accident I don't know, but we're all better off if it continues either way.

The idea of Guilliman having a kick-the-puppy moment hadn't really occurred to me, but it will be interesting to watch out for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/20 14:55:43


 
   
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i think the new rulebook looks great and is very clear on the grimdarkyness of the setting.

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on the forum. Obviously

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Duskweaver wrote:
Of course GW are going to turn the creepy/horror aspect of the setting up to 11.

Without wanting to get too far into the dreaded politics/culture wars nonsense, GW recently became aware that there are... certain people out there who have come to see 40K as unironic pro-fascist propaganda. To the point that it was starting to damage GW's public image and might eventually have hurt its bottom line (remember that kids playing 40K in school clubs is a big part of GW's business model, at least in some countries).

That view was predicated on the Imperium being portrayed as not just the main protagonists in a setting with no good guys, but actually as the good guys.

GW inadvertently fuelled that wrong impression by bringing back Guilliman.

So they now need (or feel they need) to redress the balance.

Putting fetus-bolters in the new rulebook is their way of grabbing the reader firmly by the ears, shaking him until his teeth rattle, and screaming directly into his face: "The Imperium are not the good guys, you stupid numpty! They're monsters! Everybody in this setting is a monster, especially the humans! Stop idolising the Imperium and raving on the internet about how fascism is good actually! You absolute muppet!"

So expect to see more stuff showing that the Imperium is a total horror-show. Also expect Guilliman to get a serious dog-kicking moment before too long.


I don't think there were that many people who actually believed that, and if they thought the IoM is fascist they need to revise the definition of fascism.
Authoritarian =/= Fascist (though Fascist = Authoritarian). Fascist is a very specific political and economic ideology that arose in the mid 20th century. Labeling the IoM as simply fascist is like calling the Tau simply communists.

If there is an attempt to "redress the balance", it is probably more due to criticism that 40k is becoming more sanitized, what with the kid orientated Warhammer Adventure series, the return of Guilleman and return of hope to the setting, and a semblance of the IoM not suffering any notable setback following Cadia.


Well, I think there's actually a lot that allowsfor the Imperium to be classified as fascist.
It's militaristic, it's a dictatorship, either the emperor or Guilleman can be identified as duce/Führer, it is racist, its hatred against mutants mimics the "Euthanasie"program from nationalsocialism, it uses partly fascist iconography (you really shouldn't wear a Commissar uniform in Germany...), the whole approach to sacrifice and exterminatus can also be connected to fascist ideology.

That being said there's also the whole religious stuff in the imperium that is derived from christian monarchies in the middle ages. Though reading into some arguments from the churches in Germany during the NS reign and its connections to the pope one could even connect that to fascism as well.

I never understood how people came to see the Tau as communists, though... They have even less to do with communism than with fish, but I guess sometimes you can't stop internet memes...


Commissars are a reference to the Soviet Union, actually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissar

Commissar (or sometimes Kommissar) is an English transliteration of the Russian комиссáр, which means commissary. In English, the transliteration "commissar" is used to refer specifically to the political commissars of Soviet and Eastern Bloc armies, while administrative officers are called "commissary".

The word комисса́р is used in Russian for both political and administrative officials. The title has been used in the Soviet Union and Russia since the time of Peter the Great.


The executing cowardly soldiers is a (loose) reference to Order 227

2. Military councils of armies and first of all army commanders should;

a) Unconditionally remove from their offices, corps and army commanders and commissars who have accepted troop withdrawals from occupied positions without the order of the army command, and route them to the military councils of the fronts for court-martial;
b) Form within the limits of each army 3 to 5 well-armed defensive squads (up to 200 persons in each), and put them directly behind unstable divisions and require them in case of panic and scattered withdrawals of elements of the divisions to shoot in place panic-mongers and cowards and thus help the honest soldiers of the division execute their duty to the Motherland;
c) Form within the limits of each army up to ten (depending on the situation) penal companies (from 150 to 200 persons in each) where ordinary soldiers and low ranking commanders who have been guilty of a breach of discipline due to cowardice or bewilderment will be routed, and put them at difficult sectors of the army to give them an opportunity to redeem by blood their crimes against the Motherland.


The Soviet Union was also militaristic and authoritarian. Would you call the USSR fascist?

Whilst the IoM may have some surface fascist elements (it is a melting pot of every rotten political system known to man), it also supports member worlds to basically do what they want as long as they follow the imperial truth and pay taxes, which is anathema to fascist ideology, ie, absolute control over all aspects of life. The IoM is actually closer to feudalism in that regard, as much like you had dukes swearing fealty to kings and expected to contractually give soldiers to his liege in return for protection, you have worlds swearing fealty to the Emperor and expected to give soldiers in return for Imperial protection.

Now, as for the Tau = communist thing that's because the Tau have a strong collectivist aspect to them, and much like how people think the IoM is fascist because it has a few elements that happen to coincide with fascism, people think the Tau are communist because they happen to have a few elements that coincide with communism.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/20 17:29:34


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Well, fascism doesn't mean totalitarism necessarily, so it's possible to have worlds with limited autonomy. Later spanish fascism was also not as bad as what the Nazis did, for example.
I'm well aware where the Commissar comes from and that it's more connected to USSR, I was specifically talking about the look, skull on that hut, great coat which bears resemblance to SS. I once saw a Commissar Cosplay outfit for sale and thought, noone in their right mind in germany would wear that
I must say though we're heading straight to offtopic I'm afraid.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

Casualty wrote:


It is not analogous to satanic panic because it's not a figment of anyone's imagination, the kind of numpties were talking about are themselves making youtube networks and message boards illustrating their presence. Whether we like it or not, they're there. It's demonstrably a fact, (and frankly I don't think any of us here can honestly say we haven't encountered folks thusly inclined either online or face to face.)


It is though? You had Jack Chick talking about how DnD is secretly making kids worship the devil, just as you have gits claiming that the IoM is great because its fascist or the setting is evil because its fascist and it somehow makes people nazis or some nonsense.
If you encountered such people in person you must have terrible luck, because in all of my years I haven't encountered such folks.

You know the best way to deal with them? You ignore them and mock them. You don't make a big deal out of it, because they feed off of outrage, and you certainly don't try to change the product to combat them.
Its like wanting to ban Helter Skelter because Charles Manson thought it was telling him to make a cult in preparation for a race war, its silly and bad for the product.

But that's besides the point, because 40k has always been something of a tragic parody, not an endorsement of such systems. If someone doesn't get the joke that's his problem.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, fascism doesn't mean totalitarism necessarily, so it's possible to have worlds with limited autonomy. Later spanish fascism was also not as bad as what the Nazis did, for example.
I'm well aware where the Commissar comes from and that it's more connected to USSR, I was specifically talking about the look, skull on that hut, great coat which bears resemblance to SS. I once saw a Commissar Cosplay outfit for sale and thought, noone in their right mind in germany would wear that
I must say though we're heading straight to offtopic I'm afraid.


It literally does though? One of the aspects of Fascism is totalitarianism.
From the Doctrine of Fascism, written by Mussolini, the guy who created that system.

"The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people".


If by limited autonomy, you mean the planetary governor can literally run his world how he wants, provided he pays his tithes and maintains the imperial truth to keep the eccliesarchy happy, sure.
Commissar uniforms look nothing like SS uniforms, so I'm not sure how you think that. Its more 19th century than 1930s.

You're right though, it is getting off topic.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/09/20 17:52:50


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Well this has been a huge disappointment. I came here looking for awesome fetus bolters! Instead I sifted through three pages and got a few pics of some baby face bolters
   
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on the forum. Obviously

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Well this has been a huge disappointment. I came here looking for awesome fetus bolters! Instead I sifted through three pages and got a few pics of some baby face bolters


I know, I was disappointed too.
I was expecting something like a bolter that had that fetus bottle from Death Stranding welded to it, and instead I got some weird clunky looking gun that had a doll looking thing sculpted on top of it.

What I have
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Westwood lives in death!
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Once again I feel it's worth pointing out that the rulebook contains exactly zero pictures of "fetus bolters".

   
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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But that's besides the point, because 40k has always been something of a tragic parody, not an endorsement of such systems. If someone doesn't get the joke that's his problem.
Depends how many people don't get the joke. If a significant portion aren't getting the joke, it's probably time to review how you're portraying that joke, and telling people that they're missing the joke in the first place.

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Depends how many people don't get the joke. If a significant portion aren't getting the joke, it's probably time to review how you're portraying that joke, and telling people that they're missing the joke in the first place.


A quick look at the comments of any Onion or Private Eye article will soon show you that some people are incapable of recognising even the most blatant of satire. I don't think we should be dumbing down for the sake of people that are never going to "get it".

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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If someone isn't smart enough to figure out that 40K isn't an endorsement of totalitarianism, then I suspect that that person has trouble with many things in their lives.

This is the same realm of stupidity where people claiming that liking a character like Darth Vader means you are an avid supporter of the Galactic Empire and all it does/stands for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/21 00:02:21


   
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 Super Ready wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Depends how many people don't get the joke. If a significant portion aren't getting the joke, it's probably time to review how you're portraying that joke, and telling people that they're missing the joke in the first place.


A quick look at the comments of any Onion or Private Eye article will soon show you that some people are incapable of recognising even the most blatant of satire. I don't think we should be dumbing down for the sake of people that are never going to "get it".


I would call flattening out the immoral depictions of the imperiums savagery in favor of just portraying good clean sparkly hero space marines "dumbing down" but thats just me tho.

Admech codex, sisters codex, guard codex, all seem to "get it". Marine and custode codex not so much with the satire.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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I love that picture of the banged-up guardsman with a purity seal nailed into his head jumping at the cultist. To me, it really showed the darkness and fanaticism that saturates the 40k world.
   
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I honestly never understood the "40k promotes fascism" thing.

Now we all know that in real life fascist leaders use propaganda to try to spin a narrative portaying certain foreign countries and/or ethnicities in a way that they pose a threat to the fascist state and it's people. These foreigners and/or certain ethnicities are then dehumanized, which provides a justification and lowers the threshhold to accept commiting atrocities against this precieved "enemy".
We also know from examples in history, that these percieved threats, exacerbated by propaganda, are never true and/or extremely exaggerated, which is one of the many massive dangers of a charismatic totalitarian leader with a powerful propaganda machine behind his back.

Now, here's the thing. The imperium of man in 40k does the exact same thing, only that those threats are very real. Almost everything in this fictional universe is actively trying to destroy the imperium and kill it's citizens, or worse.
Does that mean that the imperium are the good guys and their ways are to be endorsed? Hell no! They are freaking horrible, but they also managed to survive through a ten thousand year period of cultural, philosophical and technical decline.
It's an interesting thought experiment as to what cicumstances would have to occur, that such a totalitarian, xenophobic way of thinking would be the most effective way forward for a civilization in total decline.

But leaving all those aspects aside. 40k is fiction, where super soldiers fight green fungus people.
If someone digests the lore of 40k and honestly comes to the conclusion that totalitarianism might be a good idea in a real life setting, they might have bigger issues the need to adress.

Edit: as for the rulebook looking creepy, or having creepy artwork. Not really, honestly imho. For me personally, as far as artwork is concerned, the 3rd ed rulebook is peek grimdark and captured the insanity of the imperium best.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/21 00:33:32


 
   
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Tiberias wrote:
I honestly never understood the "40k promotes fascism" thing.
Some people can't separate fiction from real life. That simple, unfortunately.

   
 
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