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I think the true worrying aspect is not that it happens, but how readily people overlook it. That is, unfortunately, unsurprising but it still bodes ill for those people who will be suffering while broader society does not accept the legitimacy of their pain. I know what that is like, it is horrible.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the true worrying aspect is not that it happens, but how readily people overlook it. That is, unfortunately, unsurprising but it still bodes ill for those people who will be suffering while broader society does not accept the legitimacy of their pain. I know what that is like, it is horrible.

Fully agreed. I've taken to unfriending so many people on Facebook who I thought were nice people (and in the grand scheme of things, might still be?) - who have just been so blasé about ignoring distance, taking selfies cheek-to-cheek in pubs, etc. I've been genuinely shocked by how many people I used to call friends seem to have no respect for the welfare of others.

 Super Ready wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the true worrying aspect is not that it happens, but how readily people overlook it. That is, unfortunately, unsurprising but it still bodes ill for those people who will be suffering while broader society does not accept the legitimacy of their pain. I know what that is like, it is horrible.

Fully agreed. I've taken to unfriending so many people on Facebook who I thought were nice people (and in the grand scheme of things, might still be?) - who have just been so blasé about ignoring distance, taking selfies cheek-to-cheek in pubs, etc. I've been genuinely shocked by how many people I used to call friends seem to have no respect for the welfare of others.

You must be horrified by all the riots and protests.

In the major city near me, nobody wears masks and they get angry when told that they can't enter a restaurant without one. I have family that have to constantly deal with this. I empathize with being against laws that mandate it but to me putting on a mask is nothing.

 Super Ready wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the true worrying aspect is not that it happens, but how readily people overlook it. That is, unfortunately, unsurprising but it still bodes ill for those people who will be suffering while broader society does not accept the legitimacy of their pain. I know what that is like, it is horrible.

Fully agreed. I've taken to unfriending so many people on Facebook who I thought were nice people (and in the grand scheme of things, might still be?) - who have just been so blasé about ignoring distance, taking selfies cheek-to-cheek in pubs, etc. I've been genuinely shocked by how many people I used to call friends seem to have no respect for the welfare of others.

Agreed - although friends have not been that stupid.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the true worrying aspect is not that it happens, but how readily people overlook it. That is, unfortunately, unsurprising but it still bodes ill for those people who will be suffering while broader society does not accept the legitimacy of their pain. I know what that is like, it is horrible.

I'm surprised how readily the media overlooks it. The media over here focuses so much on the death rate, but in many ways that's less impactful because as harsh as it sounds, I think a lot of people would consider the damage done to society as a whole from lockdowns to be greater than the damage done by losing grandma and grandpa a few years earlier.

If someone told me I could have a 20% chance of dying this year, or a 5% chance that required thousands of other people to lock themselves away, lose their jobs, not be able to see their family and friends, etc, I'd like to think I'd take the 20%.

But yeah, in some ways the "this may debilitate a large portion of society" is more compelling, because that's something that could continue to affect society and families for decades to come.

My question still is at what rate do people have long term effects. It might sound harsh, but I think we need to somewhat detach from the emotion of it and look at the statistics. Of the people who have tested positive, how many have died, how many have recovered with no effects, how many have not died but are still sick and for each person that's tested positive, how many asymptomatic or non-susceptible folk are there.

Being alive carries a certain amount of risk, and we should be weighing the risk of covid against all the other risks we take on a daily basis.

Maybe I sound cold talking like that, but I say it as someone who has lived with an invisible illness for about 25 years that has completely screwed up my life, on the one hand I wouldn't wish it on anyone, on the other hand I wouldn't want society to shut down even if it meant I would have never had my health problems.

Professional predictions were more or less united that the economic impact of not shutting down would be at least as bad as shutting down, but involve a lot more death & suffering. No amount of stats I can run is going to come close to the expertise of an actual economist.

 Super Ready wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the true worrying aspect is not that it happens, but how readily people overlook it. That is, unfortunately, unsurprising but it still bodes ill for those people who will be suffering while broader society does not accept the legitimacy of their pain. I know what that is like, it is horrible.

Fully agreed. I've taken to unfriending so many people on Facebook who I thought were nice people (and in the grand scheme of things, might still be?) - who have just been so blasé about ignoring distance, taking selfies cheek-to-cheek in pubs, etc. I've been genuinely shocked by how many people I used to call friends seem to have no respect for the welfare of others.

As frustrated as I might be when I see differing views from mine from my friends, I try not to be too judgemental on an individual level. It's rarely black and white, and intelligent people can come to different conclusions which then effect how they behave (barring the obvious utter bloody idjits, like the girls over here who travelled from an outbreak area to a non-outbreak area, presenting false documents to border security, then going to a bunch of night clubs and parties before finding out they had covid... most people aren't THAT daft).

It's interesting going to work and seeing such a wide gamut of responses, from people who barely make an effort, to people who are just making a token gesture, to people who clearly don't care but are doing what they think is expected of them, to people who take it serious beyond even the government recommendations.

Unfortunately, at least over here, it's mostly become political now. I think there could have been some level of unity if we'd locked down for a few weeks and that was it, but now that it's been over 10 weeks lockdown and we still have new cases each day people are divided pretty much along political lines from one extreme thinking no sacrifice is too great to the other side thinking any sacrifice is too great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Professional predictions were more or less united that the economic impact of not shutting down would be at least as bad as shutting down, but involve a lot more death & suffering. No amount of stats I can run is going to come close to the expertise of an actual economist.

How much is "more or less"? I've heard university professors from prestigious institutes going against the grain as is most commonly presented (and haven't been disowned by their universities), and over here there's been petitions from medical professionals who think our government is doing the wrong thing, whilst the government claims they are also following the expert advice.

I think we should always be questioning and re-analysing the results of experts and weighing the opinions of a broad cross section, even if we aren't experts ourselves. Experts can make mistakes, maybe they didn't take certain things into account, maybe their assumptions were wrong. One thing I've learned about epidemiology is just how sensitive the models can be, slight changes in assumptions can result in orders of magnitude different outcomes.

 Irkjoe wrote:
You must be horrified by all the riots and protests.
In the major city near me, nobody wears masks and they get angry when told that they can't enter a restaurant without one. I have family that have to constantly deal with this. I empathize with being against laws that mandate it but to me putting on a mask is nothing.

Actually, assuming you're talking BLM here - I do support the protests. The fact that they're by necessity large gatherings of people and helping the virus to spread concerns me - but ultimately the cause is just. I just wish there were a safer way to do it.

The people I'm talking about aren't doing any such thing, though. Nor are we talking ignorance or belief that the virus is a conspiracy, etc. - I'll make a point of discussing it through with them first. We're talking people that on one face will say that they're concerned and worried for their grandparents, etc etc., only to then (and this is an actual example) rub shoulders with different groups of friends in no less than 6 different places across at least 3 towns in the course of 1 month. THAT'S the kind of inconsideration I'm dealing with.

All of them are doing the same thing and here you are deciding when it's ok to disregard the welfare of others. At least be honest if you are for abandoning all precautions for political reasons. On one face you support hundreds of thousands packed together screaming, but on the other when Sally goes out for lunch you'll unfriend her! Hilarious. Grandpa's life isn't a fair trade for social gatherings but a questionable movement and Super Ready will take that deal.

This is why it's going to be difficult to discuss this topic, if every page we're having to have to ask for no political discussions / edit or remove posts.

I'm not sure anything has changed in this regard since the last thread. Locking for now and will obviously put this to the mod team to discuss...