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 Jidmah wrote:
There are 20 factions with codices out there.
They essentially are doing releases roughly twice a month now, so it's not rocket science to just spread releases evenly across 12 months.

Heck, they'd even have four slots left to do chapter-specific releases so the snowflake chapters keep their identity and for stuff like ynnari, inquisition or assassins.

I mean they kind of are, there is a logical need to put the supplements out first to replace the now redundant codecii. So factoring that in they're forced to front load the marine supplements and then they're spreading out the marine models over several months so there isn't too much at once. Seemingly the same with crons but less so.

Given there are now 4 fewer marine dex, that's a net gain long term for everyone else in theory.

Ice_can wrote:

Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.

Did you know that;

Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?

But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs

ccs wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.

Did you know that;

Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?

But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs

Randomly they're not classed as easy to build, they don't come up under it on the GW site.

But yeah there was also shadowsun, the sister and harlequin duo, an inquisitor special character as well.

I think if we were to boil it all down, everyone wants to be excited for their army and to have something new to be excited about. Marines are getting that more than anyone else and so I fully understand why people feel the way they do.

I just think some people need to consider whether wanting everything Marines get is good thing or not though. Likewise playing Marines because they get new stuff/are good atm isn't solely the fault of GW, that's on the players as well.

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
There are 20 factions with codices out there.
They essentially are doing releases roughly twice a month now, so it's not rocket science to just spread releases evenly across 12 months.

Heck, they'd even have four slots left to do chapter-specific releases so the snowflake chapters keep their identity and for stuff like ynnari, inquisition or assassins.

I mean they kind of are, there is a logical need to put the supplements out first to replace the now redundant codecii. So factoring that in they're forced to front load the marine supplements and then they're spreading out the marine models over several months so there isn't too much at once. Seemingly the same with crons but less so.

I agree on the books, but all those models? There was no need to drop the entire primaris range with plenty of extras within 4 years, though I admit that those releases might have been lined up by the previous management.

Given there are now 4 fewer marine dex, that's a net gain long term for everyone else in theory.

Eh, maybe. I still think that space marine chapters should still get their one or two special units and characters, but not to the extend of Ultramarines or Space Wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.

Deffkilla wartrike is a character, in 7th there was MA and SAG Big Mek. I guess you could also count da red gobbo if you really wanted.

Dudeface wrote:

ccs wrote:

Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?

Randomly they're not classed as easy to build, they don't come up under it on the GW site.

Well, wether or not they officially call them that is a pretty pointless. The feature of EZB was no glue required. You pick up one of these & the box tells you No Glue Required.... EZB without the name is still EZB.

ccs wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.

Did you know that;

Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?

But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs

So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.

You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.

You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?

Ice_can wrote:

ccs wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.

Did you know that;

Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?

But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs

So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.

You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.

You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?

Would it make you happier if there were?

ccs wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

ccs wrote:

Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?

Randomly they're not classed as easy to build, they don't come up under it on the GW site.

Well, wether or not they officially call them that is a pretty pointless. The feature of EZB was no glue required. You pick up one of these & the box tells you No Glue Required.... EZB without the name is still EZB.

So is their 2 versions of the doomstalker then like their is 2 different kits with different sprues like their is for the marine easy to build line?

I'm not having a go at marine player's more at GW for have a very short sighted view they have saturated the game with marines to the point it's basically become 30k with primaris lately.

Dudeface wrote:
the sister and harlequin duo

Ironically, the harlequin is an imperial model, not an aeldari.

I just think some people need to consider whether wanting everything Marines get is good thing or not though.

I think the vast majority people here are not arguing to get what marines get. People want to have releases more evenly distributed, which means less marines, more of everything else.

Likewise playing Marines because they get new stuff/are good atm isn't solely the fault of GW, that's on the players as well.

Victim blaming at its finest

Dudeface wrote:
]
Would it make you happier if there were?

I would have preferred they used those 17 charictor sculpt releases to finally scrap off failcast for the failed experiment it was.

... or just release alternative sculpts for something that is not a loyalist marine.

 Jidmah wrote:
... or just release alternative sculpts for something that is not a loyalist marine.

Would that make less people play marines?

Edit: actually this is 2 problems, that would alleviate some of the release bloat and be welcomes by everyone, but the other issue is this theory there are more marine players than ever, which this doesn't stop.

A theory that really hasn't ever been proven.

Just because most people are taking marines to competitive games, doesn't mean that they wouldn't take another army if it had the same power/support.

 Jidmah wrote:
A theory that really hasn't ever been proven.

Just because most people are taking marines to competitive games, doesn't mean that they wouldn't take another army if it had the same power/support.

If its competitive games its the power that matters for those who want to win/copy those who want to win, the fact there are 17 lietenants isn't a problem there.

If Tau get a stupid op broken book in 3 months I can assure you there will be an upturn in tau players at all levels of the game even if there is no models accompanying. Which is where I think ice_can is missing the point slightly.

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
A theory that really hasn't ever been proven.

Just because most people are taking marines to competitive games, doesn't mean that they wouldn't take another army if it had the same power/support.

If its competitive games its the power that matters for those who want to win/copy those who want to win, the fact there are 17 lietenants isn't a problem there.

If Tau get a stupid op broken book in 3 months I can assure you there will be an upturn in tau players at all levels of the game even if there is no models accompanying. Which is where I think ice_can is missing the point slightly.

I think one without the other would be annoying but not overbearing and would see a lot less sentiment of "I'm fed up with the All Marines all the Time Verison of 40k"

New models for the faction while they were bad would be annoying for those still stuck with failcast but it's not having those new models in every game.

Vise versa Drukari/guard etc having good rules tends to have a lesser impact on peoples game experience as buying up 2k points of guard and paint etc isn't something that for 90% of the player base is a quick turnaround.

Yet with Marines we have new relase upon new release that's top tier to OP in a cheap army that's everywhere.
The saturation of 40k with primaris since codex 2.0 has been way worse than before codex 2.0 and they were still not actually that uncommon in casual play 40k before that.

It's really a bit of a perfect storm of GW own making.

More new models
More new more powerful rules
Cheapest 2k point army due to being in 90% of starter/launch box sets.

Ice_can wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
A theory that really hasn't ever been proven.

Just because most people are taking marines to competitive games, doesn't mean that they wouldn't take another army if it had the same power/support.

If its competitive games its the power that matters for those who want to win/copy those who want to win, the fact there are 17 lietenants isn't a problem there.

If Tau get a stupid op broken book in 3 months I can assure you there will be an upturn in tau players at all levels of the game even if there is no models accompanying. Which is where I think ice_can is missing the point slightly.

I think one without the other would be annoying but not overbearing and would see a lot less sentiment of "I'm fed up with the All Marines all the Time Verison of 40k"

New models for the faction while they were bad would be annoying for those still stuck with failcast but it's not having those new models in every game.

Vise versa Drukari/guard etc having good rules tends to have a lesser impact on peoples game experience as buying up 2k points of guard and paint etc isn't something that for 90% of the player base is a quick turnaround.

Yet with Marines we have new relase upon new release that's top tier to OP in a cheap army that's everywhere.
The saturation of 40k with primaris since codex 2.0 has been way worse than before codex 2.0 and they were still not actually that uncommon in casual play 40k before that.

It's really a bit of a perfect storm of GW own making.

More new models
More new more powerful rules
Cheapest 2k point army due to being in 90% of starter/launch box sets.

Marines can't be forced to suck simply because they're easier to buy though. Yes they need to be balanced, but if you peel off those chasing the competitive dragon/internet hype the proportion will probably be what it always has been I'd guess.

Marines allways were more supported indeed.
And part of the issue is the "overtuning" indeed aswell.
But when we get that ammount of marines, that is unprecedented.
Sometime back we had a full list comparison.
Marines alone had more then all Chaos factions combined in terms of releases. That were at the time 4-5 (depeding upon R&H count or not) full factions. And chaos is well supported, unless you play aftermentioned R&H or any type of army that isn't daemons or superhumans.

Dudeface wrote:
If its competitive games its the power that matters for those who want to win/copy those who want to win, the fact there are 17 lietenants isn't a problem there.

If Tau get a stupid op broken book in 3 months I can assure you there will be an upturn in tau players at all levels of the game even if there is no models accompanying. Which is where I think ice_can is missing the point slightly.

That's not what I said.

There really is no way to know what people want to buy outside of GW's sales numbers. The only things we know about these is small bits from old interviews and hearsay (not to be confused with heresy).

The next best thing is the numbers we have from game data trackers, which indicate that marines are played more than any other race, but outside of that model releases don't really match up with their competitive participation - if it were, xenos releases combined should easily outnumber marine releases, which they don't by a long shot.

Last, but not least, I did a poll here on dakka asking this precise question, and marines were roughly on equal footing with other big factions, like craftworlds, orks, guard or CSM. Even if you claim that dakka is not a representative community (there is no proof of that either), it's another indicator.

Dudeface wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

ccs wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.

Did you know that;

Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?

But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs

So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.

You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.

You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?

Would it make you happier if there were?

No, because then Orks would be receiving a ridiculous fraction of the model support.

Nobody would be happier if their faction was receiving the bonkers level of support that marines are currently getting and everyone else was getting the same fraction they are currently getting. That's not the point and you know it. The point is, the edition has been out for half a year and we've got one single solitary codex for something that's not a space marine. We were gonna get one more in december, but guess which one of the two is coming out and which one is delayed?

The problem is not that some other faction is not receiving special treatment, its that one is. It feels like the game has just been on pause for basically everyone since they announced marines 2.0, and it's extra embarrassing when you look at actions like the recent "index" move - where GW provided free holdover rules for the loyalist marine factions that'd be waiting for a month, and NONE for the chaos marine factions that would be waiting until "whenever we get around to it". CSM are still playing with ancient-ass early 8th gak tier codex rules but we gotta make sure that no Space Wolves player has to play for even THREE SECONDS with W1 Grey Wolf Yiffers alongside the rest of their army which is now W2.

Now now scotsman.
Whilest perfectly understandable, no need to proclaim the SW to be furries.

Also, some factions would be happy to even have CSM style rules available because there are now factions that simply don't work anymore.

And these factions are still better off then the factions that ended up in the FW legends book.
Truth of the matter is: SM sit on top in regards to support but get frankly milked to no end. Especially with the resell ploy for whole armies, aka primaris.
Then there's various degrees of CSM. Which honestly have issues in regards to rules-representation-vision. Excluding TS and DG which are pretty solid from that standpoint. But even these three only really get table scraps. Or shoved around like DG just did.

Then you have the "lucky" xeno faction of the edition, aka that one that get's models and rulessupport this time around with release.
Then you have the bastard tier dexes which are nonfunctional either because a core ability got nerfed and handed to SM (GSC) or a playstyle not able to work with the recent objective rule

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If its competitive games its the power that matters for those who want to win/copy those who want to win, the fact there are 17 lietenants isn't a problem there.

If Tau get a stupid op broken book in 3 months I can assure you there will be an upturn in tau players at all levels of the game even if there is no models accompanying. Which is where I think ice_can is missing the point slightly.

That's not what I said.

There really is no way to know what people want to buy outside of GW's sales numbers. The only things we know about these is small bits from old interviews and hearsay (not to be confused with heresy).

The next best thing is the numbers we have from game data trackers, which indicate that marines are played more than any other race, but outside of that model releases don't really match up with their competitive participation - if it were, xenos releases combined should easily outnumber marine releases, which they don't by a long shot.

Last, but not least, I did a poll here on dakka asking this precise question, and marines were roughly on equal footing with other big factions, like craftworlds, orks, guard or CSM. Even if you claim that dakka is not a representative community (there is no proof of that either), it's another indicator.

I'm not really sure what it is you're trying to say, we obviously don't have any empirical evidence for releases vs sales, agreed. But what you're proving is that played games shows it isn't just a marines world, hence the higher volume of releases has less to no correlation with games played in an competitive environment, although your poll suggests that's evident across the game.

So as a conclusion the playerbase isn't 75% marines, marine saturation is simply GW's release schedule and that in essence if you ignore all GW's marketing and sales cycle, there isn't as much of a problem on a game to game basis? Obviously beyond the fact there are more marine players than any other faction, just not as disproportionately as expected based on releases.

People get annoyed as they realise the game is designed around Marines as the Protagonist faction, and Marine players are the protagonists in the game.
Other Imperials are like the plucky sidekick character, sometimes a fan favourite but definitely second string.
Chaos are the big baddies, skeletor style that always talk big but get beaten by the protagonist in the end.
And Xenos are basically NPC factions, just there for colour and variety to give the Space Marines something to beat up in the first scene of the story before the True Threat (chaos) arrives.

That is how 40K is designed, but some Xenos players and even Chaos and Imperial players think they are playing a game about different factions that are roughly equal in esteem and narrative importance. When they realise the truth, that they invested hundreds of dollars or euros or even pounds into their army and it is nothing more than an NPC afterthought designed to have the crap beaten into it to allow Marine players to have their power fantasy, they get upset.

Then they have a choice! They can join the Marines, or maybe get a Chaos faction since that gets a fair amount of attention as the True Threat, or leave the game. There is usually a bit of complaining before they make the choice, because of how much time, money and emotional energy they have invested in their second string faction.

That is ultimately what all these threads are about. It would be better if GW would advertise this up front, but they kinda do in how they group stuff on their site if you look.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

ccs wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.

Did you know that;

Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?

But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs

So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.

You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.

You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?

Would it make you happier if there were?

No, because then Orks would be receiving a ridiculous fraction of the model support.

Nobody would be happier if their faction was receiving the bonkers level of support that marines are currently getting and everyone else was getting the same fraction they are currently getting. That's not the point and you know it. The point is, the edition has been out for half a year and we've got one single solitary codex for something that's not a space marine. We were gonna get one more in december, but guess which one of the two is coming out and which one is delayed?

The problem is not that some other faction is not receiving special treatment, its that one is. It feels like the game has just been on pause for basically everyone since they announced marines 2.0, and it's extra embarrassing when you look at actions like the recent "index" move - where GW provided free holdover rules for the loyalist marine factions that'd be waiting for a month, and NONE for the chaos marine factions that would be waiting until "whenever we get around to it". CSM are still playing with ancient-ass early 8th gak tier codex rules but we gotta make sure that no Space Wolves player has to play for even THREE SECONDS with W1 Grey Wolf Yiffers alongside the rest of their army which is now W2.

So you think leaving people with no codex at all is less of an issue than having one that needs updating? Agreed they could have done more for chaos though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something I like to ask on here every few months: what will it take for the complaining to stop?

I'm not convinced it ever will tbh.

Dudeface wrote:



So you think leaving people with no codex at all is less of an issue than having one that needs updating? Agreed they could have done more for chaos though.

No i think he want's equal long pikes for everyone and not just the fav faction.
In this case very much the still stuck with Tacticals CSM which just have to deal with the fact that some 70 y o baby marine has more toughness and grit then the 10'000 year veteran or the maybee younger but still mostly survivng Chaos renegade sitting in the eye of terror.

Which is basically contrafactually to how the big badie even should work.

And let's not go in there in regards to daemons or regular human followers.
or the fact that firedragons now get mopped up by a bunch of overgrown plebians in their speciality.

Something I like to ask on here every few months: what will it take for the complaining to stop?

I'm not convinced it ever will tbh.

4 things really:

A: an actual improvement in regards to ruleswriting, this includes actual transparency for rulesdesign betarules and 1-3 Editors capable of proofreading AND technical writing.

B: An actually more evenly spread out release schedule for new stuff AND rules. All non marine factions have either one or the other and some have neither, and marines themselves are also no stranger to just having model support and rules that are just rubbish tier bs.

C: Tied to B, actually asking the community as to WHY a faction doesn't sell, as to avoid decade long desinvestment circles GW is so prone to like SoB.

D: The immediate removal of anything Finecrap and replacement.

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

ccs wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.

Did you know that;

Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?

But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs

So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.

You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.

You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?

Would it make you happier if there were?

No, because then Orks would be receiving a ridiculous fraction of the model support.

Nobody would be happier if their faction was receiving the bonkers level of support that marines are currently getting and everyone else was getting the same fraction they are currently getting. That's not the point and you know it. The point is, the edition has been out for half a year and we've got one single solitary codex for something that's not a space marine. We were gonna get one more in december, but guess which one of the two is coming out and which one is delayed?

The problem is not that some other faction is not receiving special treatment, its that one is. It feels like the game has just been on pause for basically everyone since they announced marines 2.0, and it's extra embarrassing when you look at actions like the recent "index" move - where GW provided free holdover rules for the loyalist marine factions that'd be waiting for a month, and NONE for the chaos marine factions that would be waiting until "whenever we get around to it". CSM are still playing with ancient-ass early 8th gak tier codex rules but we gotta make sure that no Space Wolves player has to play for even THREE SECONDS with W1 Grey Wolf Yiffers alongside the rest of their army which is now W2.

So you think leaving people with no codex at all is less of an issue than having one that needs updating? Agreed they could have done more for chaos though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something I like to ask on here every few months: what will it take for the complaining to stop?

I'm not convinced it ever will tbh.

What it will take for the complaining to stop is for GW to take a fething break from space marines for even just a couple of months. Do you really not remember the misty past of a year and a half ago, when GW launched primaris at the start of 8th, got them out, and then just....took a break? Gave people a chance to get excited about the other factions for a while? Didn't release a weekly primaris figure like everyone's favorite Power Sword Havin' Toupee Wearin' Ultramarine Fellow? God, how could we forget him, without that guy having his own model how could an ultramarines player possibly feel the flavor of their army - I mean they have hardly any named characters.

You'll notice that basically nobody who plays AOS feels like this about Stormcast, despite stormcast having basically exactly the same Power Fantasy Protagonists of The Setting lore. It's because GW occasionally shuts up about stormcast and lets someone else have the spotlight for three seconds. Every single stormcast chamber does not have their own battletome that takes up a battletome release slot and has the same number of strats and relics and traits as a whole opposing faction. Non-Stormcast AOS players did not have to wait 7 months after the release of 2.0 to get the second non-Stormcast book.

Dudeface wrote:
I'm not really sure what it is you're trying to say, we obviously don't have any empirical evidence for releases vs sales, agreed. But what you're proving is that played games shows it isn't just a marines world, hence the higher volume of releases has less to no correlation with games played in an competitive environment, although your poll suggests that's evident across the game.

The TL;DR version would be that there is no data which suggest that marine should be getting the amount of support that they do, much quite some data that supports that they are getting too much.

So as a conclusion the playerbase isn't 75% marines, marine saturation is simply GW's release schedule and that in essence if you ignore all GW's marketing and sales cycle, there isn't as much of a problem on a game to game basis? Obviously beyond the fact there are more marine players than any other faction, just not as disproportionately as expected based on releases.

There clearly is a bias towards people switching to marines because their primary army has no support and stopped being fun to play, with another group of people is switching to marines because the army they would like to play in competitive games simply doesn't do as well as marines.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

ccs wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Discounting all the chapter specific models, charictors and easy build kits is very disingenuous IMHO as those are all things that no xeno factions got.
I also don't think any other imperial faction has either, I only really remeber deathguard as getting ETB kits so really it's just another way to downplay the raw number of Marine kits GW has saturated the game with since the start of 8th. Not to mention being the only faction on codex 3.0 and their 3 set of supliments.

Did you know that;

Characters:
Orks got a shiny new completely different Grazzkul (sp?) kit There may have been other characters when the Codex landed, but you'd have to ask an Ork player.
Jain Zaar & that Dark Eldar guy don't count?
I have an awful lot of new Necron characters that're new to 9th.
Speaking of Necrons.... Did you know that my Heavy Lokhust Destroyer & Doomstalker are EZB?

But you're right, there's no new xeno characters or EZBs

So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.

You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.

You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?

Would it make you happier if there were?

No, because then Orks would be receiving a ridiculous fraction of the model support.

Nobody would be happier if their faction was receiving the bonkers level of support that marines are currently getting and everyone else was getting the same fraction they are currently getting. That's not the point and you know it. The point is, the edition has been out for half a year and we've got one single solitary codex for something that's not a space marine. We were gonna get one more in december, but guess which one of the two is coming out and which one is delayed?

The problem is not that some other faction is not receiving special treatment, its that one is. It feels like the game has just been on pause for basically everyone since they announced marines 2.0, and it's extra embarrassing when you look at actions like the recent "index" move - where GW provided free holdover rules for the loyalist marine factions that'd be waiting for a month, and NONE for the chaos marine factions that would be waiting until "whenever we get around to it". CSM are still playing with ancient-ass early 8th gak tier codex rules but we gotta make sure that no Space Wolves player has to play for even THREE SECONDS with W1 Grey Wolf Yiffers alongside the rest of their army which is now W2.

So you think leaving people with no codex at all is less of an issue than having one that needs updating? Agreed they could have done more for chaos though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something I like to ask on here every few months: what will it take for the complaining to stop?

I'm not convinced it ever will tbh.

What it will take for the complaining to stop is for GW to take a fething break from space marines for even just a couple of months. Do you really not remember the misty past of a year and a half ago, when GW launched primaris at the start of 8th, got them out, and then just....took a break? Gave people a chance to get excited about the other factions for a while? Didn't release a weekly primaris figure like everyone's favorite Power Sword Havin' Toupee Wearin' Ultramarine Fellow? God, how could we forget him, without that guy having his own model how could an ultramarines player possibly feel the flavor of their army - I mean they have hardly any named characters.

You'll notice that basically nobody who plays AOS feels like this about Stormcast, despite stormcast having basically exactly the same Power Fantasy Protagonists of The Setting lore. It's because GW occasionally shuts up about stormcast and lets someone else have the spotlight for three seconds. Every single stormcast chamber does not have their own battletome that takes up a battletome release slot and has the same number of strats and relics and traits as a whole opposing faction. Non-Stormcast AOS players did not have to wait 7 months after the release of 2.0 to get the second non-Stormcast book.

Nor has 40k, codex necrons says hi. Marine complaints predate 8th. There have been complaints at multiple marine books, the fact there was a blood angels tactical squad, a tactical squad, a dark angels tactical squad which was a tactical squad with an upgrade sprue.

None of this is tied to 8/9th and a 6/9/12/24 month break won't change it. The second there's anything else for them it'll be back to the same complaints.

I want them to ease off now and hope they will after January and the last of the new models are out, there is a risk the old supplements will get a go-over at some point but honestly I can live with that.

I want to see an eldar revamp, I want to see some renegade and heretics, but its just tiring when they just get burdened with "oh they're not as good/got less than marines" and everything becomes a marine comparison 24/7.

The black library model of ventris, top of page 2 before "omg moar marines!!!" comments, but its a celebration mini of a long standing character. It doesn't need marine complaints stacking on it for example.

GW has over done it with marines, they always have to some degree, but the only thing I find more tiring than constant marine releases is constant complaints about constant marine releases.

I feel like the Marine comparisons are inevitable due to two reasons: firstly they are the poster faction for the game, secondly everyone basically has a Marine army of some ilk meaning that they're going to compare the two, even if they do so subconciously.

That said, the community loves to mine for salt, so any complaint will be blown out of proportion and then once that horse is beaten to death it is paraded around for ages as proof of that faction's sins.

Now that's not to say GW doesn't need to chill out with Marine releases a bit, and the advent calendar at least shows some stuff that looks Ministorum, and the only thing that looks like power armour looks human, not Astartes so stuff is coming, but unfortunately not before Dark Angels drop in Jan, and DG likely drop around the same time.

The complaints will continue because peoples expectations will continue to fail to align with reality. There are always new people realising how the game actually is (vs. how it is marketed to them in their factions book) and making threads like this, because they were not expecting it to be like this.

Eventually, people like that (I was one of them) realise that complaining is a pointless waste of energy, but we will always be replaced by someone new because someone is always going through that disenchantment.

So for the complaints to stop GW would have to make the expectation match up to the reality by either changing the expectation or changing the reality.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel like the Marine comparisons are inevitable due to two reasons: firstly they are the poster faction for the game, secondly everyone basically has a Marine army of some ilk meaning that they're going to compare the two, even if they do so subconciously.

That said, the community loves to mine for salt, so any complaint will be blown out of proportion and then once that horse is beaten to death it is paraded around for ages as proof of that faction's sins.

Now that's not to say GW doesn't need to chill out with Marine releases a bit, and the advent calendar at least shows some stuff that looks Ministorum, and the only thing that looks like power armour looks human, not Astartes so stuff is coming, but unfortunately not before Dark Angels drop in Jan, and DG likely drop around the same time.

I think this sums it up best for me, thank you. I agree I think if people sit tight, the next 12 months should be fairly light on power armour I expect.