Papa Nurgle... I can't feel my FNP.

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**Rahdok**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Rahdok wrote:
Bosskelot wrote:
Yes the rule gets no bonus versus D1 weapons.

But your marines all got +1 W and they're all T5 as a baseline still.

This idea that small arms fire is now a hard counter to DG just exposes people as being frauds with no understanding of 40k. It's like the RP rules all over again. I love it.

And to be completely fair I do think overall this is a slightly weaker ability, but the army is getting several huge buffs to compensate and it's obviously a rule that plays better which is kind of paramount importance. Imagine throwing out 30 Triarch Praetorian or Plasma Inceptor attacks onto a 2W 5+ FNP unit. That gak would take you a couple of hours to resolve.
Wow it's like you've never played a Death Guard list before? Do you know what this does to ANY of our other units besides a Plague Marine? IT DESTROYS THEM. Poxwalker/Plaguebringer/Nurgling (Units that are meant to be TOUGH) are now just garbage. Oh yay my T4/T3 1 wound model that moves 5 inches gets a -1 to wound them on a 2 wound + weapon ..YAY im only taking 1 wound YAYYYY....oh wait. And on Average compared to a typcal Marine We are WORSE OFF. Makes it worse if you add in a rapid fire weapon. Before we had a 1/3rd chance to ignore your 30 shots coming at us, now we just have to take it and die. That is literally 1/3rd worse or 33%. We are 33% worse against ANYTHING rapid fire.

So i get to spend a command point (probably 2) to give my unit a 5+ FNP....that sounds like a nerf...by a lot...like a lot a lot.

You do realise the possibility of poxwalkers getting either a new rule or a 5+++ like before is still possible, right? You do realise that plaguebingers and nurglings aren't deathguard units, right?
Chill the feth down.

**VladimirHerzog**

Rahdok wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Rahdok wrote:

Yes, thats why anything RAPID FIRE...here i'll type it again...RAPID FIRE. Just destroys DG now. That -1 means gak to anything rapid fire. Also any anti-tank weaponry this literally just buffed it against our Daemon Engines and Armor. We are supposed to be tough thats why its called RESILIENCE, not paper umbrella.

Guess what, youre still more resilient than any other army even with the new DR.
Other marines are T4 and instadie to a failed save from overcharged plasma,you don't.
Your vehicles have built-in invulns and more toughness than the other ones that do.

Stop sperging out and think for a second. The change is good.
Oh that 5+ invuln that doesn't matter when the average ap of an anti tank weapon in warhammer is -2? Yep we're not 33% worse against them. GG. And...we also die to an overcharged plasma? 2 wound HELLBASTERS also die to them? WTF? This also DESTROYS ANYTHING not Plaguemarine - Nurglings/Plaguebringers/Poxwalkers t4/t3 models with a 5+/6+ save and 1 wound..ooohh yaay i have a army wide -1 to damage that damage 2 weapon is oh look at that damage 1 now YAY my 6+ save will save me!!!

Your plague marines Used to die to overcharged plasma, now they don't anymore.
Nurglings and plaguebringers arent DG units.
Poxwalkers might get some compensation rule.

**Thadin**

This thread was going pretty well, until the doomsayers showed up to be aggressively wrong.

Please calm down and read. Previous PM statline died easily to overcharged plasma, a common tool used against all flavors of marine since the dawn of time. Now, they take reliably less damage. Sure, the swing of stopping two wounds on a 33% each is gone, and instead you have a solid, 50% durability against 2 damage.

All this durability and reliability increase, with the assumption that DG won't have tools to give themselves a FNP. They very well could have multiple ways to give FNP.

**Bosskelot**

Damn Rahdok you got some info on the new rules and stats for Nurgle Daemon units? Lay 'em out, homie.

**sfshilo**

My guess is it moved to a psychic power and/or strat.

**Thadin**

sfshilo wrote:
My guess is it moved to a psychic power and/or strat.

My money's on this, plus changes to existing models who altered the FNP Disgustingly Resilient.

**catbarf**

Rahdok wrote:
Before we had a 1/3rd chance to ignore your 30 shots coming at us, now we just have to take it and die. That is literally 1/3rd worse or 33%. We are 33% worse against ANYTHING rapid fire.

Before: You take two wounds from bolters. You have an 11% chance to not lose any models. You have a 44% chance to lose one Plague Marine. You have a 44% chance to lose two Plague Marines. Average loss of 1.33 Marines.
Now: You take two wounds from bolters. You have a 100% chance to lose one Plague Marine. Average loss of 1 Marine.

You are now 33% tougher against bolter fire, but apparently that doesn't matter because you are 33% worse than an imagined profile you never actually had. Woe is you.

**Dudeface**

Rahdok wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Rahdok wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Rahdok wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Rahdok wrote:
This gak is an EMBARRASSING nerf holy gak. Not only doesn't this new useless piece of GARBAGE gak ASS DR not work against Mortal Wounds it UTTERLY makes Poxwalkers/Plaguebringers just utter garbage. So beyond useless that it's not even worth considering cultists as an option. THANKS GW you made all DG lists pure plaguemarine daemon engine lists which due to this new NERF makes all of our vehicles utter fething TRASH against anything rapid fire or heavy weapon ....ONLY way to make up for this utter bs non sense fething stupid nerf is to increase the entire army by 1 toughness EVERYTHING. WE are MEANT to be tough not fething PAPER. Jesus GW you fething mistakes.
Can't tell if sarcasm, parody, or legitimate anger.

Regardless, little excessive. Game of toy soldiers.

All 3. Played DG for years and DR is part of the reason i was able to even hold on in some of those games. This takes an A tier list and drops it so down bellow in anything competitive or non competitve their not worth considering. The only Infantry this doesn't "nerf" is Plague Marines and even then it REALLY REALLY does. This new change makes RapidFire soo unbelievably good against DG that if you have 1 unit with 1 rapidfire weapon their damage potential against this new Trait goes up 33%. Now make 1 whole unit have rapidfire the math is something like an increase of 74% damage potential of the unit size is 5 models. THAT IS AN INSANE number. Not to mention this new "ARMY TRAIT" (keyword is army) makes Plaguebringers/Poxwalkers/Nurglings (3 key units in almost any army) more useless then fething cultists. SO What does this mean logcially? Every DG army is pretty much just gonna run platforms of Plaguemarines with 1-2 heavy weapons(since we can't take obliterators) we'll probably be taking more terminators and since this new perk DESTROYS our vehicles making wounding them 33% easier, our Dreadnoughts are garbage might as well just run more daemon engines cuz they hit on a 3+ now and can heal. So every competitve list will be oh look exactly what GW wanted MORE MARINES.

Use paragraphs.

Your plague marines take MORE bolter shots to kill now, not less.

Yes, thats why anything RAPID FIRE...here i'll type it again...RAPID FIRE. Just destroys DG now. That -1 means gak to anything rapid fire. Also any anti-tank weaponry this literally just buffed it against our Daemon Engines and Armor. We are supposed to be tough thats why its called RESILIENCE, not paper umbrella.

Compared to a 1w t3 5+ guardsman, how fething tough do you want to be?
Wow....don't compare a Plague Marine to a GUARD the comparison to Guard would be a CULTIST which is also worse then a guardsman. A plague Marine would need to be compared to a...oo look at that A MARINE. Which on AVerage is WORSE then a Marine by a lot like A LOT A LOT.

You can compare them to anything you like, they're still one of the most durable troop choices in the game. The point is, a plague marine is tougher than what must be about 95% of troop infantry? Hell even some specialists.

**VladimirHerzog**

This change is what finally convinced me to start DG, i was on the fence between them and necrons but now i'm 100% going for DG.
Digustingly resilient slowing down the game with even more rolls is the only thing that held me back.

Time to spend the next 10 years painting plague marines i guess.

**catbarf**

Rahdok, serious question, are you aware that Plague Marines are going from W1 to W2?

Because your ranting about how Rapid Fire weapons are going to destroy them just doesn't make any sense. 10 Intercessors Rapid Firing currently kills an average of 1.48 Plague Marines. With W2 and the new DR, that goes down to killing an average of 1.11 Plague Marines.

You're getting a bit tougher (33%) against D1 weapons.

You're getting massively tougher (78%) against D2 weapons.

You're technically slightly weaker, but in practice equivalent against D3+ weapons (current DR has a 4% chance to survive a D3 wound).

Point-for-point, as long as they wind up under 24pts they'll be tougher than current against basic D1 weapons.

**Spoletta**

I love how people are going mad about PM being as resilient as marines against S3 fire, like it is something that actually matters.

I mean, did you run the math on that? It takes a full squad of guards in rapid fire range under FRFSRF to kill...1 PM out of cover.

Breaking news guys, that weapon is woefully bad against that kind of target. It has zero impact on the game being slightly more vulnerable to something you were already mostly immune.

Instead PM now got protection against the marine's profile achilles heel, D2 weapons.

The new DR is a nerf on big models, that much is true, but is a net buff to PM and a HUGE buff to terminators.

**Xenomancers**

Are rubrics gonna get 2 wounds?

**Kall3m0n**

What I'm salty about is losing the one rule that made us feel really dang unique, and losing the chance to actually survive high SP shots.
The theory that the surgeon is gonna give (this is my guess) CORE a 6+ FNP? That's like slapping a band aid on a bolter wound to the head and is frankly insulting. Yes, I'm gonna take a surgeon or two, but that doesn't change anything.
What makes us special now? We "ignore" moving and shooting penalties? Yay... That has come up exactly ONCE in all my games in 8th and 9th. We ignore a wound? Yeah, that does SCREAM like a Nurgle thing, unlike the extremely un-fluffy FNP (sarcasm).

**Thadin**

I suspect they will. Aren't all Traitor marines going up with their 9e codexes?

**Dudeface**

Xenomancers wrote:
Are rubrics gonna get 2 wounds?

Yes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kall3m0n wrote:
What I'm salty about is losing the one rule that made us feel really dang unique, and losing the chance to actually survive high SP shots.
The theory that the surgeon is gonna give (this is my guess) CORE a 6+ FNP? That's like slapping a band aid on a bolter wound to the head and is frankly insulting. Yes, I'm gonna take a surgeon or two, but that doesn't change anything.
What makes us special now? We "ignore" moving and shooting penalties? Yay... That has come up exactly ONCE in all my games in 8th and 9th. We ignore a wound? Yeah, that does SCREAM like a Nurgle thing, unlike the extremely un-fluffy FNP (sarcasm).

What makes you special are plague weapons, t5 base troops with a -1 damage reduction, unique daemon engines and a primarch.

Ignoring incoming damage sounds very nurgle.

**Giantwalkingchair**

Disappointing.
I get the feeling DG are going to be relyin on strats and auras like everyone else. I know my DG buddy is gonna miss reliably ignore ridiculous amounts of damage from my anti yank weapons (he always had disgusting DR rolls)

Maybe there will be ways to stack the resilient stuff to further reduce damage? Have legion doctrines or stuff so DG reduce eventually reduce damage by like 3 to min 1?
That'd be cool for vehicles and terminators and characters if they did that.

Alas just seeing the rules like this by itself is sad.

**The Salt Mine**

I am willing to bet money there will be ways to give out a 6+++ FNP and a way to get a 5+++ against Mortals.

The Plague Surgeon comes to mind as its old aura has no purpose now so I bet it will be like the SM apothecary and give out a 6+++ fnp aura.

**SemperMortis**

Grimskul wrote:
It's definitely a general overall buff to the models that got the extra wound bump, but a pretty significant nerf towards vehicles and monsters that use it. It'll be interesting to see how this translates over to Nurgle Daemons in general when they redo the Chaos Daemons codex. Will that mean they give a 2W bracket to Plaguebearers?

Its more of a side grade change in my opinion. Lets assume your vehicle got hit by a 2dmg weapon, like an autocannon, or a D6 weapon rolled a 2. Under the old rules you had a 33% chance to save each wound. Under this new rule, its guaranteed. So where before you had a 33% chance to save each wound, which sometimes was ridiculous (Fail all saves for 12+ rolls, or get 6 saves in a row) where as now its just simpler/faster and guaranteed to save at the least 1 wound on a multi-dmg weapon.

**Kall3m0n**

Dudeface wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Are rubrics gonna get 2 wounds?

Yes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kall3m0n wrote:
What I'm salty about is losing the one rule that made us feel really dang unique, and losing the chance to actually survive high SP shots.
The theory that the surgeon is gonna give (this is my guess) CORE a 6+ FNP? That's like slapping a band aid on a bolter wound to the head and is frankly insulting. Yes, I'm gonna take a surgeon or two, but that doesn't change anything.
What makes us special now? We "ignore" moving and shooting penalties? Yay... That has come up exactly ONCE in all my games in 8th and 9th. We ignore a wound? Yeah, that does SCREAM like a Nurgle thing, unlike the extremely un-fluffy FNP (sarcasm).

What makes you special are plague weapons, t5 base troops with a -1 damage reduction, unique daemon engines and a primarch.

Ignoring incoming damage sounds very nurgle.

Re-rolling wound rolls on 1? All armies does that.(I know that not litterarely ALL armies does that, but you hopefully get what I mean). All marines re-roll all hits and wounds, so our uniqueness comes from us NOT rerolling everything, that's kinda true, yes.
T5 is kind of unique, yes. I do agree with that one.
1 Damage reduction is still not as Nurgly as FNP. Nurgle takes just as many wounds as everybody else, it's just that they ignore the wounds. You can't ignore wounds you don't take.
Yeah, our Daermon Engines are somewhat unique, I agree with that.
Two other armies have a primarch.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Salt Mine wrote:
I am willing to bet money there will be ways to give out a 6+++ FNP and a way to get a 5+++ against Mortals.

The Plague Surgeon comes to mind as its old aura has no purpose now so I bet it will be like the SM apothecary and give out a 6+++ fnp aura.

Getting a 6+ fnp to (probably) CORE is just a slap in the face. "Oh, you used to have a Bugatti? Here, take this Volvo from the 70's!"
A 5+ FNP against mortal wounds will be a strat that grants it for ONE unit, and for ONE phase. But I doub't we'll even get that. A 6+ probably.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
Grimskul wrote:
It's definitely a general overall buff to the models that got the extra wound bump, but a pretty significant nerf towards vehicles and monsters that use it. It'll be interesting to see how this translates over to Nurgle Daemons in general when they redo the Chaos Daemons codex. Will that mean they give a 2W bracket to Plaguebearers?

Its more of a side grade change in my opinion. Lets assume your vehicle got hit by a 2dmg weapon, like an autocannon, or a D6 weapon rolled a 2. Under the old rules you had a 33% chance to save each wound. Under this new rule, its guaranteed. So where before you had a 33% chance to save each wound, which sometimes was ridiculous (Fail all saves for 12+ rolls, or get 6 saves in a row) where as now its just simpler/faster and guaranteed to save at the least 1 wound on a multi-dmg weapon.

Yay... I'd rather have the chance to save all those wounds I got from not making my armour saves than just take those 6 wounds minus one like a bitch. And with the high AP weapons running around, as well as mortal wounds everywhere, we're not as durable. Ass thiss mathhammer is choosing to ignore any sort of ap and added mortal wounds.

**tneva82**

catbarf wrote:
Rahdok, serious question, are you aware that Plague Marines are going from W1 to W2?

.

There's 3 options. No, doesn't care as he is bad at math or he has been cheating with 2wound plague marines with 5+++

**VladimirHerzog**

Kall3m0n wrote:
What I'm salty about is losing the one rule that made us feel really dang unique, and losing the chance to actually survive high SP shots.
The theory that the surgeon is gonna give (this is my guess) CORE a 6+ FNP? That's like slapping a band aid on a bolter wound to the head and is frankly insulting. Yes, I'm gonna take a surgeon or two, but that doesn't change anything.
What makes us special now? We "ignore" moving and shooting penalties? Yay... That has come up exactly ONCE in all my games in 8th and 9th. We ignore a wound? Yeah, that does SCREAM like a Nurgle thing, unlike the extremely un-fluffy FNP (sarcasm).

what makes you special is that youre more resilient than other equivalent models (PM vs Tacticals, Blightlords vs termis). The chance of an 8th edition PM surviving a damage 3+ weapon was 0.03%, not its 0%. Its really not a nerf when you consider how much more resilient you become against D1 and D2 weapons.

The only thing it does is remove the tedious part of spamming dice rolls.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Are rubrics gonna get 2 wounds?

All power armored astartes will

**tneva82**

Kall3m0n wrote:
What I'm salty about is losing the one rule that made us feel really dang unique, and losing the chance to actually survive high SP shots.
The theory that the surgeon is gonna give (this is my guess) CORE a 6+ FNP? That's like slapping a band aid on a bolter wound to the head and is frankly insulting. Yes, I'm gonna take a surgeon or two, but that doesn't change anything.
What makes us special now? We "ignore" moving and shooting penalties? Yay... That has come up exactly ONCE in all my games in 8th and 9th. We ignore a wound? Yeah, that does SCREAM like a Nurgle thing, unlike the extremely un-fluffy FNP (sarcasm).

Were you looking forward to 1　unit shooting and then　having to roll 10 times 1 at a time: roll for damage, roll 1-n fnp. Repeat for all 10 wounds. Then next unit.

There is no way to fast roll multi damage weapons(super　common these days) vs 2 wound models.

**JNAProductions**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Kall3m0n wrote:
What I'm salty about is losing the one rule that made us feel really dang unique, and losing the chance to actually survive high SP shots.
The theory that the surgeon is gonna give (this is my guess) CORE a 6+ FNP? That's like slapping a band aid on a bolter wound to the head and is frankly insulting. Yes, I'm gonna take a surgeon or two, but that doesn't change anything.
What makes us special now? We "ignore" moving and shooting penalties? Yay... That has come up exactly ONCE in all my games in 8th and 9th. We ignore a wound? Yeah, that does SCREAM like a Nurgle thing, unlike the extremely un-fluffy FNP (sarcasm).

what makes you special is that youre more resilient than other equivalent models (PM vs Tacticals, Blightlords vs termis). The chance of an 8th edition PM surviving a damage 3+ weapon was 0.03%, not its 0%. Its really not a nerf when you consider how much more resilient you become against D1 and D2 weapons.

The only thing it does is remove the tedious part of spamming dice rolls.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Are rubrics gonna get 2 wounds?

All power armored astartes will

How do you become more resilient to D1 weapons?

Edit: Ah, you're referring to the overall change, not the nerf to FNP. Okay.

**VladimirHerzog**

Kall3m0n wrote:

Nurgle takes just as many wounds as everybody else, it's just that they ignore the wounds. You can't ignore wounds you don't take.

You ignore wounds now too, you just dont need to roll for it so youre not gonna get that dopamine hit from rolling 2 5+ against an overcharged plasma and saving your guy. Now you just won't have to roll at all and your guy will survive 100% of the time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JNAProductions wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Kall3m0n wrote:
What I'm salty about is losing the one rule that made us feel really dang unique, and losing the chance to actually survive high SP shots.
The theory that the surgeon is gonna give (this is my guess) CORE a 6+ FNP? That's like slapping a band aid on a bolter wound to the head and is frankly insulting. Yes, I'm gonna take a surgeon or two, but that doesn't change anything.
What makes us special now? We "ignore" moving and shooting penalties? Yay... That has come up exactly ONCE in all my games in 8th and 9th. We ignore a wound? Yeah, that does SCREAM like a Nurgle thing, unlike the extremely un-fluffy FNP (sarcasm).

what makes you special is that youre more resilient than other equivalent models (PM vs Tacticals, Blightlords vs termis). The chance of an 8th edition PM surviving a damage 3+ weapon was 0.03%, not its 0%. Its really not a nerf when you consider how much more resilient you become against D1 and D2 weapons.

The only thing it does is remove the tedious part of spamming dice rolls.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Are rubrics gonna get 2 wounds?

All power armored astartes will
How do you become more resilient to D1 weapons?

by having 2 wounds instead of only 1, and a higher toughness

**JNAProductions**

Yeah, I just realized. I'm still focused on the nerf to DR, not the overall package. My bad.

**Thadin**

JNAProductions wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Kall3m0n wrote:
What I'm salty about is losing the one rule that made us feel really dang unique, and losing the chance to actually survive high SP shots.
The theory that the surgeon is gonna give (this is my guess) CORE a 6+ FNP? That's like slapping a band aid on a bolter wound to the head and is frankly insulting. Yes, I'm gonna take a surgeon or two, but that doesn't change anything.
What makes us special now? We "ignore" moving and shooting penalties? Yay... That has come up exactly ONCE in all my games in 8th and 9th. We ignore a wound? Yeah, that does SCREAM like a Nurgle thing, unlike the extremely un-fluffy FNP (sarcasm).

what makes you special is that youre more resilient than other equivalent models (PM vs Tacticals, Blightlords vs termis). The chance of an 8th edition PM surviving a damage 3+ weapon was 0.03%, not its 0%. Its really not a nerf when you consider how much more resilient you become against D1 and D2 weapons.

The only thing it does is remove the tedious part of spamming dice rolls.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Are rubrics gonna get 2 wounds?

All power armored astartes will
How do you become more resilient to D1 weapons?

PMs have high T and 2 wounds. Compared to their previous version of T5, 1 wound 5+++. Still more survivable than tacs/intercessors.

**VladimirHerzog**

JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, I just realized. I'm still focused on the nerf to DR, not the overall package. My bad.

i think thats why the change is met with such kneejerking. People take it in a vacuum and don't consider all the other changes we know of.

I'm glad we won't be bogging games down by slow rolling multi-damage weapons. This is a good change. I'm only curious to see what poxwalkers get now.

**JNAProductions**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, I just realized. I'm still focused on the nerf to DR, not the overall package. My bad.

i think thats why the change is met with such kneejerking. People take it in a vacuum and don't consider all the other changes we know of.

I'm glad we won't be bogging games down by slow rolling multi-damage weapons. This is a good change. I'm only curious to see what poxwalkers get now.

Yeah. I can get behind the change as a "Less dice rolling" change, but it still kinda stinks that it's, by and large, a nerf compared to the previous ability.

**Kall3m0n**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Kall3m0n wrote:
What I'm salty about is losing the one rule that made us feel really dang unique, and losing the chance to actually survive high SP shots.
The theory that the surgeon is gonna give (this is my guess) CORE a 6+ FNP? That's like slapping a band aid on a bolter wound to the head and is frankly insulting. Yes, I'm gonna take a surgeon or two, but that doesn't change anything.
What makes us special now? We "ignore" moving and shooting penalties? Yay... That has come up exactly ONCE in all my games in 8th and 9th. We ignore a wound? Yeah, that does SCREAM like a Nurgle thing, unlike the extremely un-fluffy FNP (sarcasm).

what makes you special is that youre more resilient than other equivalent models (PM vs Tacticals, Blightlords vs termis). The chance of an 8th edition PM surviving a damage 3+ weapon was 0.03%, not its 0%. Its really not a nerf when you consider how much more resilient you become against D1 and D2 weapons.

The only thing it does is remove the tedious part of spamming dice rolls.

Yeah, you're right. It's tedious and boring to roll dice. That's why I play a game that's based on rolling dice.
I also find it bopring to move my models, that's why I just deploy them and hope the objectives come to me.
I also find it tedious and boring to glue models, that's why I never do. I just use the sprue.

**Thadin**

I'd be willing to bet that poxwalkers keep their Disgustingly Resillient FNP.

And yeah, my feeling is that the angered responses come from people assuming they had a T5, 2 Wound 5+++ FNP, and thus feel like they're losing something. Instead, they're going from T5, 1W 5+++ to T5, 2W, -1 damage taken min 1

Edit: You're going to tell me that rolling an excessive volume of dice, slowly and arduously, is the only enjoyment to be found in 40k? That it's the only thing that made DG unique? Please.