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Xenomancers wrote:True it is just my opinion. I guess some people like the old scouts I guess. I think they are ugly. Catachan infantry look more intimidatings.

And that's saying something, because Catachan infantry are famously bad models. [I agree with the sentiment though, Primaris Marines as models look so much better than the old marines.]

the_scotsman wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:Rules wise you have a point scotsman. Much in the same way GW is terrible at naming space wolf units and weapons - it is also terrible at naming Primaris. It is also equally bad at creating options within units that give a meaningful choice.

You appear to be making an assumption here that the goal of primaris units is to create a new, unexplored role that previous marines did not fulfil. I would argue that it is pretty dang evident that this is not the case: primaris fulfil the exact same roles as various marine units, intentionally, with a slight increase in power and point cost vs whatever the standard marine option is.

Xenomancers wrote:Since 95% of this hobby is building painting and looking at your models. It seems a fair point to mention that secondis marines all look pretty dreadful and cartoonish. They certainly don't look like super soldiers.

This is another opinion, which I disagree with. I got a couple of Reivers to add to my Deathwatch for Kill Team, and I have no intention to add any more than the 10$ EZTB kit I bought, because I find their whole setup looks like a bad GI Joe knockoff, while the normal marine deathwatch more successfully capture the 'gothic commando' aesthetic the deathwatch go for. The C.O.D modern warfare skull half-masks, the sculpted ab-armor, the Buzz Lightyear ankle armor and the gigantic sword-sized serrated combat knife held backhand are all supremely cringey in my eyes.

Xenomancers wrote:Primaris in general look much more advanced and intimidating.

that's another opinion. I'm about as intimidated by primaris units as I am by the facebook pictures I see of the dude I went to high school with who's gained 40 pounds, went bald and posts photos posing with katanas from his mom's basement.

You know, the intended audience demographic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's all just a matter of subjective opinion, but I think this:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/12/e7/a2/12e7a2d45decaf88c9eb16beb807bf2a.jpg

Looks like a cool, over-the-top gothic supersoldier, and this:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/SMPreview-Aug7-IncursorMine-b47ek.jpg

juuuust crosses the line into "trying too hard' territory with the general details and scaling of the bits.

One scope? TOO SMALL! Make it huge and square, and put another huge square one sticking up over my backpack!

Anti-tank grenade? but what if it was THE SIZE OF MY WHOLE TORSO!

One Knife? No, TWO KNIVES! Both on the same side! So when i throw my knife at a guy, I still have a spare knife!

Armor plates right over my vital organs? Take them out, loser, I want the enemy to know I HAVE ABS under this armor!!!

I don't think any have their abs exposed. In fact, Primaris Marines have more armor over the midriff than oldmarines do.
Old Marines have a hose bundle over the exposed aramid layer, or this kind of slatted bar thing
Phobos Armor Primaris have the aramid layer.
Tacticus Primaris have a set of overlapped armor plates covering the aramid layer connecting their belt and their chestpiece.


Second, that thing is a mine, not a grenade. It's still dramatically oversized, but so are all other weapons in 40k and he's not intended to throw it.



I personally think the Vanguard Primaris really nailed what a super soldier should look like in Warhammer. They're super soldier tacticool, but it's ridiculously over the top and funny and I love it. Between the infiltrators having three scopes all on the wrong side of his gun, and especially the Eliminators with so many pockets and their guns with the suppressors and muzzle brakes and folding stocks and pic rails and everything, they made me excited to play marines again. Also, the guy taking his scope off makes me laugh every time, because it's so silly.

The Primaris Marines really nailed their aesthetics in general:
The regular Primaris Marines carried over basically perfectly the look of the old marines
The Vanguard Primaris Marines got a x-treme tacticool thing going with scopes and pockets and pic trails, which personally is a look I love for marines.
The Indomitus Primaris Marines got down a knights-crusader thing going with their begreebled shields and helmets and such; if that's you're speed.

So, you know, you can pick and choose what you want:

Vanilla Flavor


Tacticool Flavor


Knights Flavors


It's pretty inarguable that Primaris Marines look better than old marines. The questions really are:
Is the "hot pockets are done" lore a deal breaker for you?
Is the unit good enough to see play in your army?
Is the $60 per box too expensive for you?

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Primaris really ARE blatantly doubling down on the power fantasy.

Considering miniMarines have double wounds now, I guess *all* Space Marines fit that now?

Again, complaining about "they're making the power fantasy stronger" might have worked if Space Marines had always been what they were from the start, but that's not the case. They've gradually developed and evolved over time. Things like "canon" height or suchlike have changed, to the point where Space Marines can broadly be what you prefer.

Still like the old stuff? Cool, play with that!

Are Primaris not billed as bigger, stronger, tougher, bigger guns, etc. ? Maybe your books are different than mine.

The question is by how much - sure, Primaris are *more* powerful, not disputing that, but have Space Marines not grown in power and strength from the feats they were first described as having?

The "doubling down on the power fantasy" isn't limited to only Primaris Marines, is what I'm saying.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Primaris really ARE blatantly doubling down on the power fantasy.

Considering miniMarines have double wounds now, I guess *all* Space Marines fit that now?

Again, complaining about "they're making the power fantasy stronger" might have worked if Space Marines had always been what they were from the start, but that's not the case. They've gradually developed and evolved over time. Things like "canon" height or suchlike have changed, to the point where Space Marines can broadly be what you prefer.

Still like the old stuff? Cool, play with that!

Are Primaris not billed as bigger, stronger, tougher, bigger guns, etc. ? Maybe your books are different than mine.

The question is by how much - sure, Primaris are *more* powerful, not disputing that, but have Space Marines not grown in power and strength from the feats they were first described as having?

The "doubling down on the power fantasy" isn't limited to only Primaris Marines, is what I'm saying.

Space Marines increased in "power level" once in 1991ish. They just got bumped to 2w now in 2020. The 2020 wound bump is egregious imo, and is it's own problem.

Primaris are literally written as "moar betterer marines".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

It's pretty inarguable that Primaris Marines look better than old marines.

I'd argue it.

@lord katherine, funny you mentioned catachans as bad sculpts, as I get a chance to reiterate my argument. Yes plastic catachans look off, but the metal ones are actually pretty good sculpts.

Hillarious to see loyalist players arguing which loyalist models are more "marines" than the other, especially since the additional wound for Classic Marines means primaris are now much more of a side-grade than a straight upgrade now. I think Sgt_Smudge said it best:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Still like the old stuff? Cool, play with that!

Meanwhile many other factions are stuck with ancient models and outdated rules. All these options that loyalist players have must be such a burden.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Hillarious to see loyalist players arguing which loyalist models are more "marines" than the other, especially since the additional wound for Classic Marines means primaris are now much more of a side-grade than a straight upgrade now. I think Sgt_Smudge said it best:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Still like the old stuff? Cool, play with that!

Meanwhile many other factions are stuck with ancient models and outdated rules. All these options that loyalist players have must be such a burden.

Yeah, absolutely! Like, Space Marines really are spoilt for choice here - you can stay classic, with models that are still in production, you can go for what is essentially an entirely revamped range - or anything between the two!

Even if you don't like Primaris, you've still got the original stuff. You're complaining about things other people got while miniMarine players, to the best of my knowledge, have lost nothing so far. SM players are *really* well off, generally speaking, and this is coming from someone who's primarily an SM person.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Hillarious to see loyalist players arguing which loyalist models are more "marines" than the other, especially since the additional wound for Classic Marines means primaris are now much more of a side-grade than a straight upgrade now. I think Sgt_Smudge said it best:

It is all hilarious till you start a 1200 fued over the idea of how through both is different from, from both. You have no idea how many fun things can happen over small things.

You're complaining about things other people got while miniMarine players, to the best of my knowledge, have lost nothing so far.

chaplain dreads, the superior PA rules, scouts as troops. There is more then enough stuff for marines to miss.

Karol wrote:

You're complaining about things other people got while miniMarine players, to the best of my knowledge, have lost nothing so far.

chaplain dreads, the superior PA rules, scouts as troops. There is more then enough stuff for marines to miss.

Chaplain Dreads were Forge World, not the Codex.
PA rules are, well, rules - not models. By that same virtue, every army "loses" something every edition change.
You can still play with your Scout models, even if their battlefield role changed.

As I said, no models lost from their Codex, as I understand!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:

You're complaining about things other people got while miniMarine players, to the best of my knowledge, have lost nothing so far.

chaplain dreads, the superior PA rules, scouts as troops. There is more then enough stuff for marines to miss.

Chaplain Dreads were Forge World, not the Codex.
PA rules are, well, rules - not models. By that same virtue, every army "loses" something every edition change.
You can still play with your Scout models, even if their battlefield role changed.

As I said, no models lost from their Codex, as I understand!

1) Well my Las/plas razorback turrets are gone.
1st they didn't get included in the 8e Codices (fine, they were in the Index & FW)
Now though? The 8e Index is of course gone, this being 9e. They're not in the 9e codex. And they're gone from FW - both the new book & Legends.

2) (SW) Ragnar has been Primarised. There's no option to field him prior to that happening. Wich means my Space Wolves leader can no longer ride into battle along side my army as the whole thing is drop pod mounted.
So I either run him alone on foot or I run him as a generic 1st born SM character & lose Ragnars stats.

I would say buy what marines you want, I know there are some who believe " First born marines will fade away any day I swear !! " but it isn't happening any time too soon. They'll keep screeching it to anyone who will listen and eventually they may be right, but you have to look at time frames for these estimations.

While eventually everything will die, and all past times will fade away, hell the entire game of warhammer will not last forever, better not buy anything if you value your dollar for all eternity safe purchases. It'll eventually be a dead game !

There has been no move, outside some characters so far really, to phase out all first born marine kits. So while that may happen, it may not happen for decades yet to come and at that point, it may mean nothing to you as you may not even be playing, and Primaris themselves may have been themselves rebooted with Uber-Primaris Gen IIs.

Basically just buy what you want and make the best of it, nothing lasts forever but don't let fear of phasing out stop you as we have no indication of time frame time scale of that change really does matter unless we are all ageless immortals on here, which I am doubting.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

It's pretty inarguable that Primaris Marines look better than old marines.

I'd argue it.

To me classic marines look far better than any primaris model. Comparing vehicles the gap is even wider.

In fact I still haven't bought a single new marine model yet. So yeah, it's just opinions actually.

If old marines are going to vanish one day no chance I'm going to replace them with the new models, I don't like them at all and re-doing an entire army IMHO is utterly frustrating. I wouldn't do it even if orks, my favorite faction is history, get a full new line of models that invalidates all currently existing collections. I'd just stick with my other army or buy something different.

And no one guarantees that primaris-gravis dudes won't fade away themselves one day as GW may launch T6 4W 2+ super marines someday.

You have good taste Blackie, first born marines are the way, imo of course.

It's a dangerous thing to just blindly jump into replacing a hundreds of dollars or in some cases thousands of dollars army just because GW decide they don't like you using those " stinky old models " no more.

Nothing to then stop them from squatting whole other lines and I will not be fleeced for a whole new army to replace what has worked for all this time. If they did squat my marines, and other armies I'd just stop playing with that edition and only play old editions if I played at all. That kind of practice is why I stopped buying into x wing with the 2.0. In the end it does save me the money of keeping up with it though.

Yeah, it's entirely personal taste. I for example jumped into SW when Wulfen were released and I loved the idea to collect and play an army centered on them and TWC while lots of SM and even SW players absolutely hated (and still do) how those two units look.

If general consensus is that primaris look better than classic marines, fine, I'm not arguing against that.

I think it is pretty mixed. The Primaris Tacticals are obviously just an evolution of the classic marine look, and they do look good. Shame about the upscaling and the 32mm bases, but they are nice figures.

The Agressors? The terminator dudes with the big chubby arms and guns all over them? I think they look like absolute ass. Give me terminators over them any day of the week.

The stealth dudes to me are a side grade. I love the old metal scouts and will stick with them. I don't much like the new stealth unit and I think they look silly, but not too bothered.

The flying units also look a bit silly to me, and I really don't like from a practicality standpoint that they are all on flight stands, that is gonna be a PITA for gaming and transport.

But if you made an army with Primaris Intercessors (sp? the tacticals), bikes and bladeguard dudes, I think it does look pretty good. It is the other parts (the flying troops, the chubby terminators, the stupid marine grav tanks and silly toy looking jeeps) where the Primaris range falls down in my opinion.

I don't mind the old marines at all, I think the problem was that they weren't careful with the scale on the old Guardsmen when they translated them into plastic, and hence a gradual scale creep. I think scale creep always implies a lack of discipline and care on the part of the model designers, so I do find it disappointing. I prefer to stay away from it so my collection is consistent.