the problem with primaris

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**Slayer-Fan123**

Yeah, Necron W1 models are godly, but even the W2 is struggling a bit it looks like.

**AnomanderRake**

argonak wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
argonak wrote:
...Additional wounds add design space to differentiate marines and other elites from less elite troops...

Like Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines? Necron Immortals?

Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines will get their second wound when they get their codex...

Assuming GW doesn't forget they exist, copy-paste the 8e datasheets without paying attention at the last minute, refuse to FAQ it because they can't invalidate a printed Codex no matter how little effort they put into it, and then start inventing bogus lore explanations as to why GK/CSM don't deserve 2W. If they wanted to give them 2W in a stopgap PDF like they did for Deathwatch Marines they could have.

**Syphid**

If you were to make a Venn diagram of "models with dumb designs", "models with dumb lore", and "models with dumb rules", you would find Primaris at the centre of that diagram.

People are into it because it is the new hotness and like every new product, GW gives the models rules to make them sell only to nerf them a year later, but I digress.

The problem with Primaris isn't primaris per se, it's GWs horrible rules bloat and inflexibility. Do we really need seven different entries for "Captain"? Why not just make Rubicon Primaris an upgrade for existing SM units for XPoints and call it a day?

**Sgt_Smudge**

Syphid wrote:If you were to make a Venn diagram of "models with dumb designs", "models with dumb lore", and "models with dumb rules", you would find Primaris at the centre of that diagram.

Or, from my perspective, if you were to make a Venn diagram of models with cool designs, interesting lore, and fun rules, I'd find Primaris right in the centre.

You disagree, that's fine - but, uh, you might want to sound a little less like you're stating objective facts there.

People are into it because it is the new hotness and like every new product, GW gives the models rules to make them sell only to nerf them a year later, but I digress.

Or, because they look cool. I'm not exactly fussed by how OP Primaris stuff is to buy it - coming from someone who happily takes Reivers for the cool factor.

Do we really need seven different entries for "Captain"? Why not just make Rubicon Primaris an upgrade for existing SM units for XPoints and call it a day?

Now this I actually strongly agree with! Have a core Captain datasheet, and have options for Primaris Captain (which is the statblock increase, exchanging out bolters and stormbolters for the bolt rifle variants, and Primaris keyword), as well as "jump pack", "Bike", "Terminator Armour", "Phobos Armour" and "Gravis Armour" modifications. It'd be a big datasheet, but it could easily be done.

Similarly, I wouldn't mind seeing a similar system rolled out for Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Ancients, and Techmarines.

**JNAProductions**

Yeah. I find the fluff a bit worse than normal, but not massively worse.
The rules are hit and miss for me, some stuff pretty bonkers (Eradicators) some stuff solidly meh for Marines (Reivers), but everything is playable with the overlapping rules Marines have.
And the models are pretty cool. I can see why someone would dislike them, but a lot of people do like them, and that's DEFINITELY not an objective matter.

**Daedalus81**

Voss wrote:

Yes, reanimation is just flatly worse for multiwound models. The issue with multiwound models seems to be a bookkeeping one. For whatever reason, they choked on the idea that multiwound models could come back with a variable number of wounds (nevermind that multiwound models innately have a layer of bookkeeping).

I think its to prevent situations where multiple models can end up being damaged (one from damage that isn't enough to kill it, the other from 'rising' with 1 or 2 wounds), and for whatever reason the designers really felt this breaks the game. (It crops up with damage assignments in the basic rules- you absolutely must kill off a model before damaging another one). The obvious solution here is to heal an existing damaged model (if any) and then start bringing back 'dead' models, but apparently that wasn't something they wanted to go with, so its all a bit crap. (So if you had a model that had taken a wound and lost a couple others, if you got 3 successes on RP rolls, the wounded model would heal 1 (taking it to max) and another model would come back with 2 wounds remaining. It would prevent multiple damaged models existing in a unit, and not punish you for taking multi-wound models. Ta-dah.).

There's a another angle to this. Living Metal heals all models even if there would never be more than one wounded model. If you were allowed bring back partial Skorpeks and then double up their living metal it'd be pretty nuts.

**Hecaton**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Syphid wrote:If you were to make a Venn diagram of "models with dumb designs", "models with dumb lore", and "models with dumb rules", you would find Primaris at the centre of that diagram.
Or, from my perspective, if you were to make a Venn diagram of models with cool designs, interesting lore, and fun rules, I'd find Primaris right in the centre.

Nah. Go-karts are dumb, and their fluff contradicts the core setting idea of the Imperium slowly circling the drain of decay and degradation.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Hecaton wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Syphid wrote:If you were to make a Venn diagram of "models with dumb designs", "models with dumb lore", and "models with dumb rules", you would find Primaris at the centre of that diagram.
Or, from my perspective, if you were to make a Venn diagram of models with cool designs, interesting lore, and fun rules, I'd find Primaris right in the centre.

Nah. Go-karts are dumb

Again, you're welcome to your opinion!

and their fluff contradicts the core setting idea of the Imperium slowly circling the drain of decay and degradation.

The fluff which has had new discoveries in the forms of Razorbacks, new Land Raider variants, and new Chapters being formed?

The core of the setting is moral degradation and constantly balanced/tipping warfronts in an unending conflict, as far as I see it - which is itself a subjective focus. Primaris don't break that for me.

Basically, just to re-emphasis, some people like 'em and think they fit, and others don't/ Neither party is "objectively" right or wrong.

**Insectum7**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Syphid wrote:If you were to make a Venn diagram of "models with dumb designs", "models with dumb lore", and "models with dumb rules", you would find Primaris at the centre of that diagram.
Or, from my perspective, if you were to make a Venn diagram of models with cool designs, interesting lore, and fun rules, I'd find Primaris right in the centre.

Nah. Go-karts are dumb
Again, you're welcome to your opinion!
and their fluff contradicts the core setting idea of the Imperium slowly circling the drain of decay and degradation.
The fluff which has had new discoveries in the forms of Razorbacks, new Land Raider variants, and new Chapters being formed?

The core of the setting is moral degradation and constantly balanced/tipping warfronts in an unending conflict, as far as I see it - which is itself a subjective focus. Primaris don't break that for me.

Basically, just to re-emphasis, some people like 'em and think they fit, and others don't/ Neither party is "objectively" right or wrong.

Weapon swaps on a preexisting vehicle chassis are 'objectively' not equivalent to

A reawakened Primarch
A whole new fleet of flying vehicles
New armor variants on
New Marines carrying
Entirely new classes of weapons.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Insectum7 wrote:
Weapon swaps on a preexisting vehicle chassis are 'objectively' not equivalent to

A reawakened Primarch
A whole new fleet of flying vehicles
New armor variants on
New Marines carrying
Entirely new classes of weapons.

But they do represent progress and development.
Whether you think they're on the same level or not is down to you, but they *are* forms of progress. Further examples of progress being made might be things like new STC discoveries, new strategies and tactics (such as things like the Tyrannic War Veterans), or new Chapters being founded.

But you've already made your mind up on Primaris - which you're entitled to.

**Insectum7**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Weapon swaps on a preexisting vehicle chassis are 'objectively' not equivalent to

A reawakened Primarch
A whole new fleet of flying vehicles
New armor variants on
New Marines carrying
Entirely new classes of weapons.
But they do represent progress and development.
Whether you think they're on the same level or not is down to you . . .

No sir, they are pretty blatantly, obviously, not at all on the same level. But we've seen this sort of bizarre attempt at equivalency from you before.

**jeff white**

Syphid wrote:
If you were to make a Venn diagram of "models with dumb designs", "models with dumb lore", and "models with dumb rules", you would find Primaris at the centre of that diagram.

People are into it because it is the new hotness and like every new product, GW gives the models rules to make them sell only to nerf them a year later, but I digress.

The problem with Primaris isn't primaris per se, it's GWs horrible rules bloat and inflexibility. Do we really need seven different entries for "Captain"? Why not just make Rubicon Primaris an upgrade for existing SM units for XPoints and call it a day?

This seems reasonable.

**Quasistellar**

Oh look, it's the weekly minimarines vs primaris thread.

**Torga_DW**

jeff white wrote:
Syphid wrote:
If you were to make a Venn diagram of "models with dumb designs", "models with dumb lore", and "models with dumb rules", you would find Primaris at the centre of that diagram.

People are into it because it is the new hotness and like every new product, GW gives the models rules to make them sell only to nerf them a year later, but I digress.

The problem with Primaris isn't primaris per se, it's GWs horrible rules bloat and inflexibility. Do we really need seven different entries for "Captain"? Why not just make Rubicon Primaris an upgrade for existing SM units for XPoints and call it a day?

This seems reasonable.

For me, its not the rules, its the minis. I'll give a graphic description of my problem with 'firstborn' minis(*1), but i will say the hips on all these models don't strike me right. Even the primaris. I'd need to see a mini with their legs together standing upright to know for sure but they still don't seem right (*2)

This is finally the age where terminators are useful in game, and dreadnoughts, and i always loved terminators and dreadnoughts. But all i see now is a guy who got his arms surgically amputated and placed on his back, with some sort of surgical neck elongation to get his head in the right place. I love terminators, and i used to love firstborn, but the proportions are just janky. Gravis armour might suck in comparison, but its commonly available and looks sorta like a human.(*3).

*1

Spoiler:

*2 they just look like the legs of a crab sticking out of the body and moving sideways, they don't look human.
*3 yeah i get its the new terminator armour, and i like it for that, but its not as good armour-wise

**Irbis**

Hecaton wrote:
Nah. Go-karts are dumb, and their fluff contradicts the core setting idea of the Imperium slowly circling the drain of decay and degradation.

Oh yeah, because replacing STC designs with WW2 era level vehicle absolutely doesn't equal "decay and degradation".

Oh wait!

Is it some attempt at sarcasm or did you really didn't give your argument any thought?

Insectum7 wrote:
No sir, they are pretty blatantly, obviously, not at all on the same level. But we've seen this sort of bizarre attempt at equivalency from you before.

I fully agree - putting slightly longer pipe in bolter to make rifle out of carbine is nowhere near the complexity of integrating completely new weapon system in a tank, complete with ammunition, sensor, turret, targeting, mounting, recoil, etc, issues.

And I like how people still screeching about primaris after what, five years pretend the black is white and the former is harder than the latter

**Insectum7**

Irbis wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Nah. Go-karts are dumb, and their fluff contradicts the core setting idea of the Imperium slowly circling the drain of decay and degradation.

Oh yeah, because replacing STC designs with WW2 era level vehicle absolutely doesn't equal "decay and degradation".

Oh wait!

Is it some attempt at sarcasm or did you really didn't give your argument any thought?

Insectum7 wrote:
No sir, they are pretty blatantly, obviously, not at all on the same level. But we've seen this sort of bizarre attempt at equivalency from you before.

I fully agree - putting slightly longer pipe in bolter to make rifle out of carbine is nowhere near the complexity of integrating completely new weapon system in a tank, complete with ammunition, sensor, turret, targeting, mounting, recoil, etc, issues.

And I like how people still screeching about primaris after what, five years pretend the black is white and the former is harder than the latter

Find me the lore that says a Bolt Rifle is merely a longer barrel, and tell me how a longer barrel extends the range of a rocket propelled munition.

And the guy carrying said bolt rifle is wearing a new armor system, has new organs, and rides in entirely new vehicles floating aloft on newly scaled anti-grav tech.

Friendly reminder that every weapon system in said new vehicle is "complete with ammunition, sensor, turret, targeting, mounting, recoil, etc, issues." As you say.

**AnomanderRake**

Insectum7 wrote:
...Find me the lore that says a Bolt Rifle is merely a longer barrel, and tell me how a longer barrel extends the range of a rocket propelled munition.

You could alternately build your Primaris with classic-Marine short boltguns, and then the whole modified statline is explained by them just using Kraken bolts.

**Insectum7**

AnomanderRake wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
...Find me the lore that says a Bolt Rifle is merely a longer barrel, and tell me how a longer barrel extends the range of a rocket propelled munition.

You could alternately build your Primaris with classic-Marine short boltguns, and then the whole modified statline is explained by them just using Kraken bolts.

A fine point, but that's not the way they're presented.

**Torga_DW**

Insectum7 wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
...Find me the lore that says a Bolt Rifle is merely a longer barrel, and tell me how a longer barrel extends the range of a rocket propelled munition.

You could alternately build your Primaris with classic-Marine short boltguns, and then the whole modified statline is explained by them just using Kraken bolts.
A fine point, but that's not the way they're presented.

I will say, having butchered (some might say wasted) some reivers on building a primaris death company..... the bolt carbines once you clip that handle away look a hell of a lot like standard bolt guns for firstborn.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Insectum7 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Weapon swaps on a preexisting vehicle chassis are 'objectively' not equivalent to

A reawakened Primarch
A whole new fleet of flying vehicles
New armor variants on
New Marines carrying
Entirely new classes of weapons.
But they do represent progress and development.
Whether you think they're on the same level or not is down to you . . .

No sir, they are pretty blatantly, obviously, not at all on the same level. But we've seen this sort of bizarre attempt at equivalency from you before.

It really ain't objectively that way, dear.

As I've said, if *you* don't like it, or think it's a step too far, that's fine by me. Just don't claim that's anything but your opinion, yeah? It's as simple as that. Otherwise, you're just making yourself look foolish by suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you has some kind of objectively bad taste or isn't a fan of "True 40k", so to speak. Which I'm sure you agree is an absurd thing to claim.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Torga_DW wrote:
I will say, having butchered (some might say wasted) some reivers on building a primaris death company..... the bolt carbines once you clip that handle away look a hell of a lot like standard bolt guns for firstborn.

Not even just the Reiver ones, all bolt carbines are pretty close to bolters! The Infiltrators and Incursor bolt carbines are pretty close - the Infiltrator's carbines look like the old Deathwatch bolters, and the Incursor ones, when you lop off the box scope, are scarily close to the Tigris pattern bolters.

**Torga_DW**

#1: i'm having trouble quoting this jazz, so i'ma just reply

#2 come on insectum, from you? really? I thought you liked all this fluffy progress. Me, i just like the proportions (although i'll blow the hips trumpet till the day i die, old marines or new).

#3 (point 2)
Yeah i know. I would have gone about the whole boltguns thing a whole lot differently. I proposed my rules back in the day. But now it is what it is. When i'm offered the blue pill or the red pill, i quickly take them both and swallow them before they can stop me.

**Irkjoe**

I don't care for them. The cartoon skull masks, tactical poses, sleek armor, and more modern vehicles look out of place. The fluff is transparently written just to patch them in alongside traditional marines and the idea of the imperium innovating cuts against the entire premise of 40k. GW shouldn't innovate either, they suck at it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Cartoon skull masks compared to Chaplains and Night Lords? Talk about being in Egypt and swimming in Denial

**Insectum7**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Weapon swaps on a preexisting vehicle chassis are 'objectively' not equivalent to

A reawakened Primarch
A whole new fleet of flying vehicles
New armor variants on
New Marines carrying
Entirely new classes of weapons.
But they do represent progress and development.
Whether you think they're on the same level or not is down to you . . .

No sir, they are pretty blatantly, obviously, not at all on the same level. But we've seen this sort of bizarre attempt at equivalency from you before.
It really ain't objectively that way, dear.

I welcome you to prove me wrong. Bring your evidence.

Torga_DW wrote:
#1: i'm having trouble quoting this jazz, so i'ma just reply

#2 come on insectum, from you? really? I thought you liked all this fluffy progress. Me, i just like the proportions (although i'll blow the hips trumpet till the day i die, old marines or new).

#3 (point 2)
Yeah i know. I would have gone about the whole boltguns thing a whole lot differently. I proposed my rules back in the day. But now it is what it is. When i'm offered the blue pill or the red pill, i quickly take them both and swallow them before they can stop me.

You may have me mixed up with someone else, as I'm not very fond of the whole lore progression thing.

It's true, both styles of marines are oddly proportioned though, when you get down to it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Cartoon skull masks compared to Chaplains and Night Lords? Talk about being in Egypt and swimming in Denial

They are styled differently, in a bad way.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Insectum7 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:No sir, they are pretty blatantly, obviously, not at all on the same level. But we've seen this sort of bizarre attempt at equivalency from you before.
It really ain't objectively that way, dear.

I welcome you to prove me wrong. Bring your evidence.

I think you misunderstand - you're the one here claiming an objective fact. The evidence is on you to prove, my friend.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Cartoon skull masks compared to Chaplains and Night Lords? Talk about being in Egypt and swimming in Denial
They are styled differently, in a bad way.

Eh, they are somewhat different, I'll grant (well, some of the older Chaplain skulls are SERIOUSLY goofy, IMO). But the latter is, yet again, a subjective opinion. Just to hammer that home for you.

**Deadnight**

Primaris got me back into 40k.

Love the poses. Love the concepts. Especially phobos (though
I do wish the intercessor kit boltgun bits were better compatible with the infiltrator kit). Love the little bit of silly.

Lore? *shrug* I played wmh for years. One of the iconic and celebrated aspects of it was an evolving storyline. I remember for years people cheered it, saying 'I wish the 40k setting wasn't stagnant and things moved on beyond 999m41'. And now gw moves the plot along...

Frankly, they were what I always wishes marines were. I genuinely wish the marine line as it existed around 2000 comprised primaris models rather than oldstartes. Can't stand the old bobbleheads when compared.

**Grimtuff**

Torga_DW wrote:

This is finally the age where terminators are useful in game, and dreadnoughts, and i always loved terminators and dreadnoughts. But all i see now is a guy who got his arms surgically amputated and placed on his back, with some sort of surgical neck elongation to get his head in the right place. I love terminators, and i used to love firstborn, but the proportions are just janky. Gravis armour might suck in comparison, but its commonly available and looks sorta like a human.(*3).

You know a Termie's shoulderpads aren't actually his shoulders, right? The shoulders are under them, and then under the armour there. Seriously, every time I see comments like this I wonder if anyone has ever put together a Termie kit made in the last 15 years, because you'll notice they specifically addressed this issue when they remade them. If you want further proof, just look at the Abaddon mini, and how he is assembled- it might give you a clue as to why those shoulderpads are so high when building him.

**Irkjoe**

It's not subjective to point out the silly caricature of a skull that ruins any attempt to make them grim or scary. The silhouettes of the jump infantry and gravis also look horrible; they have giant feet and torsos.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Deadnight wrote:(though I do wish the intercessor kit boltgun bits were better compatible with the infiltrator kit).

Ah, are you talking about how the Phobos Marine left shoulders are slightly larger and don't take shoulder pads on them? You might have found a solution already to it, but I was able to get around the whole different arms thing by chopping the gun holding arm just under where the shoulder pad meets the arm, and then doing the same to the arm I intended to replace it with. Let me use arms designed for Phobos Marines on my Intercessors without any weird half shoulder pads.

Irkjoe wrote:It's not subjective to point out the silly caricature of a skull that ruins any attempt to make them grim or scary.

Well, actually, it kinda is. I mean, I can't say that the Night Lord or Chaplain sculpts look "scary" to me, so the fact I'm not "scared" by the Reiver ones changes nothing.

Obviously, perhaps you feel that the Chaplain skulls are grim and scary, which you're welcome to, but as someone who doesn't feel that either one are more "scary" or "grim" than the other, it very much is subjective.

**Bosskelot**

Torga_DW wrote:
argonak wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
argonak wrote:
...Additional wounds add design space to differentiate marines and other elites from less elite troops...

Like Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines? Necron Immortals?

Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines will get their second wound when they get their codex.

Necrons don't get the second wound because GW wants them to be less elite than the beaky boys. I don't write the rules. It seems to me that GW has decided Necrons are mostly a horde army at this point.

I think the problem is they worded the reanimation protocols in a really wierd way. Maybe a necron player can correct me, but it feels like they're worse than fnp when it comes to multiwound models. You have to lose a fair amount of models just to have a decent chance to bring one back. To me that's not the point, they all get back up at the same rate, big and small. I'm sure it can be done, although i know it won't (this edition at least).

It's not really worded in a weird way; it's by design. W1 models have an easier time reanimating to simulate the idea of legions of skeletal androids coming at you in a never ending tide (without needing to put that many models on the table).

Plus the old RP rules were inherently problematic in that it was entirely possible to bring back like, 5 3 wound destroyers all at once which was just utterly broken at 1.2k points and lower. However, at points values above that, armies could easily delete a unit like that before it was able to reanimate. And yet the Necron player was STILL paying the points for the ability.

Now, a lot of the multi-wound Necron models are pretty generously priced because they don't overly rely on RP as a mechanic. And many of them are excellent too. They still get RP and it can be still be impactful, especially when combined with Living Metal. It's basically the best version of the rule the army has ever had, across all editions.