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Made in gb
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AFAIK Kasrkin were just models to be used as Stormtroopers pre-Scions, I just got rid of my old guard codex so I can't verify that. Grenadiers being Krieg units were, again AFAIK, essentially better veteran squads.

I get Scions work badly when taken in the same detachment as regular AM but TBH I don't really see that as an issue. It gets treated the same way as taking different regiments or chapters in one detachment would. They aren't regular Guardsmen so don't work well with them. Plus detachments aren't that expensive IMO.

I do agree a Guard cavalry unit would be cool to have but I could never see myself taking them even in a casual game when I could take more guns instead. Jump packs are just small jet engines, strapping that to some peasant farmer or hive scum who's had two months of basic training isn't worth the time or material when the end result is the same as not doing it, a dead peasant farmer or hive scum.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 01:09:45


 
   
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 Gert wrote:
AFAIK Kasrkin were just models to be used as Stormtroopers pre-Scions, I just got rid of my old guard codex so I can't verify that. Grenadiers being Krieg units were, again AFAIK, essentially better veteran squads.

I get Scions work badly when taken in the same detachment as regular AM but TBH I don't really see that as an issue. It gets treated the same way as taking different regiments or chapters in one detachment would. They aren't regular Guardsmen so don't work well with them. Plus detachments aren't that expensive IMO.

I do agree a Guard cavalry unit would be cool to have but I could never see myself taking them even in a casual game when I could take more guns instead. Jump packs are just small jet engines, strapping that to some peasant farmer or hive scum who's had two months of basic training isn't worth the time or material when the end result is the same as not doing it, a dead peasant farmer or hive scum.


Kasrkin were introduced in the Eye of Terror campaign as special Cadian homegrown stormtrooper equivalents. There were carapace armoured stormtroopers before them. Just many players (myself included) preferred to use them as regular stormtroopers instead. Latter these stormtrooper-esqe troops (basically veterans in carapace armour) became referred to as Grenadiers.

Jump packs have also had an antigrav component. We often meme that IG are mainly conscripts with barely any training, but the lore is that they mostly are well trained competent soldiers (~top 10% of a planets PDF as tithe). Basic training in WW2 was about 13 weeks (farmers to infantry), though I do agree that any jump-pack equipped troops should be specialists not line troops.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.


So long as your nuking doesn't invalidate anything in my collection.

And this is why we can't have nice things. There needs to be a dramatic shift at times, and "no invalidate" is going to keep the status quo.

It sucks, but oh well. I lost 30+ Sergeants/Officers with Lasguns. You can handle it too.

Oh, poor baby. You lost 30 sgts - but gained 3 whole squads! Deal with it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The biggest thing that needs to happen in any regards? Removal of Heavy Weapon Teams from Infantry/Veteran/Command Squads. Add man-portable Heavy Weapons as an additional "Special Weapon" choice, things like Heavy Stubbers or Heavy Lasguns.

HWTs either need to be able to be deployed separate from an Infantry Squad if they are to remain in Infantry Squads or remain the purview of Heavy Weapons Squads, becoming a pseudo 'vehicle squadron' of buy more than one and deploy across things.


Well, other than adding Heavy Stubbers for a more MG42/M60 vibe, that's an idiotic idea. Squads in the real world have been packing what 40k terms heavy weapons embedded in squads since WWII (if not before). As well as having dedicated platoons of the things. And since the IG is generally inspired by WWII....
Besides, why would that change 38k years from now?
Now if YOU don't want to include heavy weapons in your own squads? Feel free not to spend the pts on them. It's not required.

   
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I'd be all for a Guard redesign, it be really great if GW's creative teams decided to play something like Company of Heroes (the original one) to get some ideas on how to structure a more or less conventional fighting force in a strategic setting.
   
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That's not the guard though, they're a bloated administrative mess, it's part of the core in the setting that the imperium cannot get out of the way of itself... If they did the guard would be truly terrifying and a, if not the significant force in the galaxy when the supporting super elite sections of the imperium forces are used to support them, but the imperium doesn't allow itself to do it....

Guard are even pre WW1-WW2 to be honest, some guard commanders will forgo the process of building defensive trenches to just stand in a line and fire volley after volley, the incompetence is a KEY part of the armies play style, IMO.

EDIT: Actually, just to add to the above, in a way the administrative mess that is the imperium is extremely efficient at supporting the current way the guard operate, DKoK on Vraks for example, they had everything they needed to wage the war they wanted to wage with constant resupplies or support to launch attacks in a specific way they wanted, down to the exact amount of shells and replacement basilisk barrels required for their shelling offensives... It logistically works, it just isn't efficient, and incredibly outdated, and that is the guard, why modernise when the current process "works" in the imperiums opinion.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 10:51:23


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The Guard are every military and every stereotype thereof from the 19th century to modern day depending on the regiment(s) you're looking at.
Want to recreate Enemy at the Gates? Guard have you covered with Conscripts.
Want to recreate the Vietnam war? Catachan.
Want to recreate a modern professional army? That's pretty much the Cadians.

Although I think new kits will just make the problem of affordability worse, expanding on the Guard's infantry options would be great imo.
Conscripts could have a more rag-tag look to them.
Veterans in particular have a long way to go. Restore them their options of heavily armoured or stealthy variants (as separate units if necessary). Perhaps add grav-para versions.
Give them some more weapons - it's about time Guard got a light machine gun, like the Hotshot Volley Gun but normal.

Play around with Leman Russes and artillery so they're a little more impressive, although they're hemmed in by the lack lustre rules for vehicles and blasts in general.
   
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 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
That's not the guard though, they're a bloated administrative mess, it's part of the core in the setting that the imperium cannot get out of the way of itself... If they did the guard would be truly terrifying and a, if not the significant force in the galaxy when the supporting super elite sections of the imperium forces are used to support them, but the imperium doesn't allow itself to do it....

Guard are even pre WW1-WW2 to be honest, some guard commanders will forgo the process of building defensive trenches to just stand in a line and fire volley after volley, the incompetence is a KEY part of the armies play style, IMO.

EDIT: Actually, just to add to the above, in a way the administrative mess that is the imperium is extremely efficient at supporting the current way the guard operate, DKoK on Vraks for example, they had everything they needed to wage the war they wanted to wage with constant resupplies or support to launch attacks in a specific way they wanted, down to the exact amount of shells and replacement basilisk barrels required for their shelling offensives... It logistically works, it just isn't efficient, and incredibly outdated, and that is the guard, why modernise when the current process "works" in the imperiums opinion.


Is this an argument not to update any miniature line for Guard or give them models.....?

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 BlackoCatto wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
That's not the guard though, they're a bloated administrative mess, it's part of the core in the setting that the imperium cannot get out of the way of itself... If they did the guard would be truly terrifying and a, if not the significant force in the galaxy when the supporting super elite sections of the imperium forces are used to support them, but the imperium doesn't allow itself to do it....

Guard are even pre WW1-WW2 to be honest, some guard commanders will forgo the process of building defensive trenches to just stand in a line and fire volley after volley, the incompetence is a KEY part of the armies play style, IMO.

EDIT: Actually, just to add to the above, in a way the administrative mess that is the imperium is extremely efficient at supporting the current way the guard operate, DKoK on Vraks for example, they had everything they needed to wage the war they wanted to wage with constant resupplies or support to launch attacks in a specific way they wanted, down to the exact amount of shells and replacement basilisk barrels required for their shelling offensives... It logistically works, it just isn't efficient, and incredibly outdated, and that is the guard, why modernise when the current process "works" in the imperiums opinion.


Is this an argument not to update any miniature line for Guard or give them models.....?


Oh no no no, the infantry in particular need an update, but the play style does not need wholesale changes. I'm in favour of an update on regimental infantry in terms of models, but rules wise I don't want to see any changes or many bar decent regimental rules that fit the regiments style.

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 Gert wrote:
I don't think AM needs new units they just need updated models for the largest part of most armies, the infantry. The biggest issue is that it's not a streamlined organisation in lore and unlike Marines, you can't easily convert Cadians into Vostroyans, and providing basic infantry for the "main" regiments means either 6 separate kits for each infantry unit or a new updated kit that is released alongside upgrade packs, which I think everyone would agree would not go down well.

The best option would probably be to go the Bolt Action route with basic one-piece bodies but numerous head and weapon options, the British Infantry kit is a brilliant example because it comes with enough heads to represent the basic infantry alongside notable regiments/divisions such as Sikh or Scottish soldiers.

I feel like this would be the best option, though I disagree with the second part of this post. One-piece body models is quite limiting for posing/conversions. That said what I would like to see in the game is a mercenary add on. Both xeno and Imperium. If we look at the Necromunda range of models we see quite an extensive line of possibilities. The Van-Saar gang has flying skateboards. The Orlocks have enormous crossbows. The mutants are up to all kinds of shenanigans. This could be incorporated into the game by having a mercenary (or dogs of war) supplement. This would not be covered by conscripts. I mean, when was the last time you saw a conscript on a hover board? If you want jump infantry then you could easily have a merc squad of jump pack specialists or something. Or it could let you use Kroot or Hrud in imperial armies. We all know that the Imperium lore vise isn't supposed to use aliens in wars. We also know that it happens, there's even an ork klan centered around it. So yeah, a mercenary supplement is what I'd like to see. It's not really necessary though.

One other thing. Way back when (some 10 or so years ago) guards was an army to be shaped in your image. You could have guard units infiltrate at the cost of heavy weapon choices, give guardsmen close combat weapons or give all your guards 4+ carpace armour. I'd like to see something similar to this again. Maybe be able to represent a scout detatchment by giving them different gear and special rules? It's not really a request for new models more a more open mind as to how the guards can be used.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 13:32:03


His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
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Giving vets the option to be grenadiers or basic drop troops would be awesome, I always loved that in the old rules. The infantry squads would be basic but the vets could show the specialty of the regiment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 13:51:46


 
   
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Right behind you.

ccs wrote:

Oh, poor baby. You lost 30 sgts - but gained 3 whole squads! Deal with it.

"Thirty plus officers/sergeants". And no, you don't "gain 3 whole squads".

This is why having the "FRFSRF" discussion with anyone who does not seem to actually read the squad makeup of Guard Squads is so frustrating.
Sergeants have Laspistols. You don't get an option to not have Laspistols, before going into the armory.

So 30 officers/sergeants at best becomes a unit of 30 Conscripts not "3 whole squads".

 Kanluwen wrote:
The biggest thing that needs to happen in any regards? Removal of Heavy Weapon Teams from Infantry/Veteran/Command Squads. Add man-portable Heavy Weapons as an additional "Special Weapon" choice, things like Heavy Stubbers or Heavy Lasguns.

HWTs either need to be able to be deployed separate from an Infantry Squad if they are to remain in Infantry Squads or remain the purview of Heavy Weapons Squads, becoming a pseudo 'vehicle squadron' of buy more than one and deploy across things.


Well, other than adding Heavy Stubbers for a more MG42/M60 vibe, that's an idiotic idea. Squads in the real world have been packing what 40k terms heavy weapons embedded in squads since WWII (if not before). As well as having dedicated platoons of the things. And since the IG is generally inspired by WWII....
Besides, why would that change 38k years from now?
Now if YOU don't want to include heavy weapons in your own squads? Feel free not to spend the pts on them. It's not required.

And "squads in the real world" don't stand around in whole groups. They break into fireteams, with squad support weapons(or sniper/spotter teams, or anti-tank teams, etc) finding optimal placement to bring their role into play. Also, the "realism" argument dictates that I remind you of this:

There's three classifications of machine guns. LMGs/MMGs are the ones that "squads in the real world" have been packing. HMGs tended to be in heavy weapon platoons/defensively emplaced.
Then you get into mortars, which are similarly classified and utilized.
Then you get into anti-tank weaponry, which initially started out being emplaced field guns or other tanks/carriages and moved down into rifles/disposable launchers like the panzerfaust which then moved up to reloadable, reusable launchers like the PIAT, bazooka, and panzerschrek.

So your realism argument actually lends itself more towards what I've proposed.
   
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Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.
Also, Sergeants losing lasguns is not a big deal. Oh no, you have to change their arms or just counts as. Unless you only play in a hyper-competitive WAAC environment I really don't see the issue. My Renegade Sergeants have a mix of chainswords, mauls, axes, and sharpened sticks but they're all just chainswords in the game because that's what the unit has.
   
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Again regarding ideas for units to expand guard: I would like to see the option for heavy flamers on Infantry as well as Multilasers. Purely out of personal modelling preferences.

The "scout jeep" mentioned earlier also sounds cool, maybe something close to the Tauros Assault Vehicle.

Last but not least: as it somehow still is for sale, rules for the Valkyrie Sky Talon would be funny. Imagine if it could somehow grav enemy vehicles, pull them up and drop them (did someone play Earth 2150? There was a Transport Heli that could so that)

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Right behind you.

 Gert wrote:
Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.

Except they didn't fight like that prior to Cruddace's book.

The Doctrine book let you field entire armies of Drop Troops or infiltrating specialists. And then Cruddace's book comes out and we've gone back to the Napoleonic era where the Close Order Drill Doctrine is apparently in every single faction.


Also, Sergeants losing lasguns is not a big deal. Oh no, you have to change their arms or just counts as. Unless you only play in a hyper-competitive WAAC environment I really don't see the issue. My Renegade Sergeants have a mix of chainswords, mauls, axes, and sharpened sticks but they're all just chainswords in the game because that's what the unit has.

That's nice for you, but yeah it is a big deal to someone like myself who actually \played Guard at the time. Because there wasn't even a balance issue or a lack of kit issue. Officers and Sergeants could take Lasguns because the fluff suggested that's what they did.

Then Cruddace comes along and the army book becomes hot garbage other than a few gimmick lists like Leafblower.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.

Except they didn't fight like that prior to Cruddace's book.

The Doctrine book let you field entire armies of Drop Troops or infiltrating specialists. And then Cruddace's book comes out and we've gone back to the Napoleonic era where the Close Order Drill Doctrine is apparently in every single faction.


Also, Sergeants losing lasguns is not a big deal. Oh no, you have to change their arms or just counts as. Unless you only play in a hyper-competitive WAAC environment I really don't see the issue. My Renegade Sergeants have a mix of chainswords, mauls, axes, and sharpened sticks but they're all just chainswords in the game because that's what the unit has.

That's nice for you, but yeah it is a big deal to someone like myself who actually \played Guard at the time. Because there wasn't even a balance issue or a lack of kit issue. Officers and Sergeants could take Lasguns because the fluff suggested that's what they did.

Then Cruddace comes along and the army book becomes hot garbage other than a few gimmick lists like Leafblower.


But before then, it was as it is now, so in fact that is the anomaly and the intended status quo has been restored.

I actually agree with you though, the doctrines book was awesome, and tbh, was basically as it is now, but allowed for variation based upon choice.

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Spoiler:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.

Except they didn't fight like that prior to Cruddace's book.

The Doctrine book let you field entire armies of Drop Troops or infiltrating specialists. And then Cruddace's book comes out and we've gone back to the Napoleonic era where the Close Order Drill Doctrine is apparently in every single faction.


Also, Sergeants losing lasguns is not a big deal. Oh no, you have to change their arms or just counts as. Unless you only play in a hyper-competitive WAAC environment I really don't see the issue. My Renegade Sergeants have a mix of chainswords, mauls, axes, and sharpened sticks but they're all just chainswords in the game because that's what the unit has.

That's nice for you, but yeah it is a big deal to someone like myself who actually \played Guard at the time. Because there wasn't even a balance issue or a lack of kit issue. Officers and Sergeants could take Lasguns because the fluff suggested that's what they did.

Then Cruddace comes along and the army book becomes hot garbage other than a few gimmick lists like Leafblower.


It seems that you're annoyed that an army changed five editions ago and don't want to make changes to that army even though they aren't even that big and could be resolved by saying "yeah my army is old and I didn't want to break apart my models, I hope that's ok". Unless your entire strategy hinged on 1 or 2 extra shots per squad it's a difficult argument to understand.

It's been the better part of a decade since the Cruddace codex and even without it BL and GW have been consistent on the Guard being mass formations both in lore and gameplay while at the same time contradicting each other at every turn with some officers using rifles and some using CQW. The lore and game changes, yes you can be annoyed but suggesting an entire faction should be rebooted because you lost an option a decade ago is hardly a strong argument.
   
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If you look at the Rogue Trader-era illustrations of the Imperial Guard, they are advancing in dense ranks with Colours flying - very Napoleonic. So maybe later Codexes were just going back to the original.

Having Heavy Weapons Teams splitting off from an Infantry Squad kinda worked in 2nd Edition when you might only have three or four squads on the table. I think it would be a problem now from a game design/balance/playability perspective to have all those independent teams split off. They could really exploit some game mechanics regarding targeting, board control and scoring. I could get behind having Heavy Weapons Squads as a Troops choice to get around the Rule of 3, but perhaps tied to the number of Infantry Squads you take? I think that Infantry Squads should still have the option of an integral Heavy Weapon Team.

I suppose my idea for a "jeep" with a heavy weapon would be filling the niche of the Sentinel. I just think it would look a lot cooler. Oh well.

And yes, bring back Rough Riders.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
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Right behind you.

 Gert wrote:


It seems that you're annoyed that an army changed five editions ago and don't want to make changes to that army even though they aren't even that big and could be resolved by saying "yeah my army is old and I didn't want to break apart my models, I hope that's ok". Unless your entire strategy hinged on 1 or 2 extra shots per squad it's a difficult argument to understand.

I'm "annoyed" that people continually try to pretend that this was some kind of non-issue. This was continually justified by people as "WELL NO OTHER ARMIES CAN ARM ALL THEIR SERGEANTS OR HEROES WITH THE BASIC WEAPONS!".
Tau have a specialized Pulse Rifle on Fireblades, who were released after that whole thing happened. Marines have Boltguns on characters. Tyranids can give their leader models the same weapons as their units.
It's not even the FRFSRF issue, which has consistently been misrepresented by people as infantry squads volleying up 20 shots outside of Rapid Fire range.

It's that we have had a consistently inconsistent list of weapons for Sergeants and Officers. And you can't even try to pretend that it's "CQW" at this point, because the only weapons they come with as standard are laspistols. The Scion Tempestors/Tempestor Primes are the exception rather than the rule though since they do get a Chainsword+Hotshot Laspistol.

It's been the better part of a decade since the Cruddace codex and even without it BL and GW have been consistent on the Guard being mass formations both in lore and gameplay while at the same time contradicting each other at every turn with some officers using rifles and some using CQW. The lore and game changes, yes you can be annoyed but suggesting an entire faction should be rebooted because you lost an option a decade ago is hardly a strong argument.

Funny how I said nothing about "mass formations".

Napoleonic is a specific 'style'. It's Mordians and Praetorians with their tightly packed ranks(there was even a Doctrine for it! It was called "Close Order Drill") and banners in the squads.
And for every example of "mass formations", we have another example of Guard operating with combined arms and bounding fireteams.
Most of those examples though are Cadians, Catachans, Tallarn, and Tanith.
   
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All artwork in 40k is armies charging forwards in massed ranks.
It's just how you get lots of people to represent an action packed battle.

Jeeps are cool but essentially either Sentinels or Taurox. Couldn't we just get those back?
   
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endlesswaltz123 wrote:That's not the guard though, they're a bloated administrative mess, it's part of the core in the setting that the imperium cannot get out of the way of itself... If they did the guard would be truly terrifying and a, if not the significant force in the galaxy when the supporting super elite sections of the imperium forces are used to support them, but the imperium doesn't allow itself to do it....

Guard are even pre WW1-WW2 to be honest, some guard commanders will forgo the process of building defensive trenches to just stand in a line and fire volley after volley, the incompetence is a KEY part of the armies play style, IMO.


Gert wrote:Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.


Have you guys read any of the fiction? Serious question, because you don't even have to go particularly far into it to find tons and tons and tons of counter-examples to this idea of Napoleonic idiocy being the sine qua non of Guard tactics.

Elysians are heavily styled after WW2 paratroopers. Their shtick is getting Operation Market Garden'd on every drop because their allied forces can't keep up with their operational tempo. Cadians are probably the most modern of the regiments, tactically. Some Kasrkin show up in the Eisenhorn books and they are basically real-world special forces. Catachans operate as light infantry in organic units. They're Vietnam War meets Rambo with a dash of Predator. Where do you see Catachans lining up and firing in massed ranks? Tallarn are taken after the Mujahideen, with an emphasis on ambush and rapid redeployment. Their command structure in Desert Raiders is reminiscent of Auftragstaktik/Mission Tactics. Vostroyans are urban fighters and operate in small units, making optimal use of terrain. And so on and so on.

About the only ones that even approach that Napoleonic ideal are Mordians, Valhallans (and even then, they're more pop-history Soviets- they still use combined arms alongside infantry assault), and Krieg. And the whole point of the Krieg is that what they do isn't normal.

As far as regiments that (currently) only exist in fiction, the Arkhan Confederates, Vassago Black Flags, and Exordio Void Breachers in the Dark Coil novels are all unique historical expies, but employ reasonably modern small unit organization and tactics. The Tanith First and Only are WW2-era SAS with a heaping helping of 'lions led by donkeys'. And I can't remember what book it was from, but I read a novel that featured an honest-to-god call for indirect fire to cover a bounding advance against an emplaced position, and it's going to bother the hell out of me until I find it again.

The idea of the Guard being composed exclusively of idiot officers leading lines of infantry into shoulder to shoulder meat grinders is a bad Flanderization of the faction. They're supposed to range the gamut from high-tech genetically-enhanced professional armies to tribes of angry savages given lasguns. They're hamstrung by the logistical incompetence of the greater Imperium and the paranoid opposition to self-sufficiency, ensuring that regiments rarely have the organic support they need and are often fielded sub-optimally, but that has no relevance at the scale 40K is played at.

I'm fine with GW redesigning the faction, but if their playstyle is reduced to a bland caricature of itself then I'm out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 19:41:47


 
   
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Right behind you.

Tallarn Desert Raiders are modelled after the WW2-era SAS/LRDG as well.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:

Tau have a specialized Pulse Rifle on Fireblades, who were released after that whole thing happened.

Just for accuracy's sake, the Fireblades actually use the standard pulse rifle. AFAIK, there is no "character" version of the pulse rifle at the moment.
   
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Right behind you.

SturmOgre wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Tau have a specialized Pulse Rifle on Fireblades, who were released after that whole thing happened.

Just for accuracy's sake, the Fireblades actually use the standard pulse rifle. AFAIK, there is no "character" version of the pulse rifle at the moment.
Did they change it from being the same as the sniper drones? I'm 99% sure that the last time I looked it wasn't the standard.

Haven't touched my Tau in awhile though so could be off!
   
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Fireblade has had a standard Pulse Rifle since introduction - albeit it has an inbuilt markerlight (represented by an additional marketlight as wargear).
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
Tallarn Desert Raiders are modelled after the WW2-era SAS/LRDG as well.



That is why they all have funny Arabian names instead of funny English ones then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:That's not the guard though, they're a bloated administrative mess, it's part of the core in the setting that the imperium cannot get out of the way of itself... If they did the guard would be truly terrifying and a, if not the significant force in the galaxy when the supporting super elite sections of the imperium forces are used to support them, but the imperium doesn't allow itself to do it....

Guard are even pre WW1-WW2 to be honest, some guard commanders will forgo the process of building defensive trenches to just stand in a line and fire volley after volley, the incompetence is a KEY part of the armies play style, IMO.


Gert wrote:Anyone who argues "Guard should have X because the modern-day military does Y" misses that the whole point of the Imperium is that it's backward and dumb. Why do Guardsmen fight like it's the Napoleonic Wars? Because the culture of humanity has regressed and fractured to the point where innovation is heresy.


Have you guys read any of the fiction? Serious question, because you don't even have to go particularly far into it to find tons and tons and tons of counter-examples to this idea of Napoleonic idiocy being the sine qua non of Guard tactics.

Elysians are heavily styled after WW2 paratroopers. Their shtick is getting Operation Market Garden'd on every drop because their allied forces can't keep up with their operational tempo. Cadians are probably the most modern of the regiments, tactically. Some Kasrkin show up in the Eisenhorn books and they are basically real-world special forces. Catachans operate as light infantry in organic units. They're Vietnam War meets Rambo with a dash of Predator. Where do you see Catachans lining up and firing in massed ranks? Tallarn are taken after the Mujahideen, with an emphasis on ambush and rapid redeployment. Their command structure in Desert Raiders is reminiscent of Auftragstaktik/Mission Tactics. Vostroyans are urban fighters and operate in small units, making optimal use of terrain. And so on and so on.

About the only ones that even approach that Napoleonic ideal are Mordians, Valhallans (and even then, they're more pop-history Soviets- they still use combined arms alongside infantry assault), and Krieg. And the whole point of the Krieg is that what they do isn't normal.

As far as regiments that (currently) only exist in fiction, the Arkhan Confederates, Vassago Black Flags, and Exordio Void Breachers in the Dark Coil novels are all unique historical expies, but employ reasonably modern small unit organization and tactics. The Tanith First and Only are WW2-era SAS with a heaping helping of 'lions led by donkeys'. And I can't remember what book it was from, but I read a novel that featured an honest-to-god call for indirect fire to cover a bounding advance against an emplaced position, and it's going to bother the hell out of me until I find it again.

The idea of the Guard being composed exclusively of idiot officers leading lines of infantry into shoulder to shoulder meat grinders is a bad Flanderization of the faction. They're supposed to range the gamut from high-tech genetically-enhanced professional armies to tribes of angry savages given lasguns. They're hamstrung by the logistical incompetence of the greater Imperium and the paranoid opposition to self-sufficiency, ensuring that regiments rarely have the organic support they need and are often fielded sub-optimally, but that has no relevance at the scale 40K is played at.

I'm fine with GW redesigning the faction, but if their playstyle is reduced to a bland caricature of itself then I'm out.


Seconded.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 20:18:03


"Don't Feed the Troll" 
   
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Right behind you.

Dunno why I was thinking he had that same pulse rifle then.

Point still remains: it's an HQ with a rifle rather than waving a sword and pistol. It's an even better example if I'm going to be honest, since prior to that Tau HQs were either Ethereals or Battlesuits!
   
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Eastern Fringe

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
ccs wrote:
I want:
RT era human bombs to return.
Rough Riders on horse.
Rough Riders on bikes.
a mix & match rules system for making & equipping ab-humans


Absolutely zero chance of this happening... Someone would turn it into a PR s***storm from outside the hobby once they caught wind of it, most likely from someone unhappy within the hobby, and I think it would just be a bit un-tasteful personally.

Thematically, it makes sense, penal legions that have a suicide vest etc but yeah, no chance.




This kind of thinking doesn't really reflect reality though. A tweet or passing article doesn't actually have any real-world effect. It's like that Peta thing a while back, nothing actually comes of these PR "disasters" and people who are cancelled only make more money and become more famous.

The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
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Right behind you.

Ehh...there's a difference between PETA posting something and an actual PR gakstorm.

PETA is widely regarded as ridiculous.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






GW thought (agreed) that a pointy hood on the Cawdor executioner was too edgy, so human bombs are well out of the question.
   
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Right behind you.

It wasn't the pointy hood alone.
It was the hood+noose.
   
 
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