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As a MtG player this makes me want to vomit.

If it was a stand-alone product... cool. But 40K mixed into MtG... off

 TBD wrote:
As a MtG player this makes me want to vomit.

If it was a stand-alone product... cool. But 40K mixed into MtG... off

Sources indicate it's a single one off "What If" universe Commander Deck containing cards stamped with a symbol already ruled as ineligible for Standard, Modern, etc.. It won't affect the majority of MTG players in the slightest.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 TBD wrote:
As a MtG player this makes me want to vomit.

If it was a stand-alone product... cool. But 40K mixed into MtG... off

Sources indicate it's a single one off "What If" universe Commander Deck containing cards stamped with a symbol already ruled as ineligible for Standard, Modern, etc.. It won't affect the majority of MTG players in the slightest.

The majority of MtG players right now are Commander players, so yes, it will affect the majority of MtG players in a huge way.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The MTG community is absolutely on fire right now over this announcement.
But there's still so much we don't know as to exactly how this will be done. My personal suspicion is that the Warhammer version will be it's own box set like Game Night or Unsanctioned.

My suspicion is that it will be similar to Ponys the Galloping as a boxed set game... Mostly because I imagine I'm the target demographic and that's really the format I'd buy this product in. A sort of Cube or premade Commander style product meant for 40k fans but using Magic as a game engine is a rock solid product concept. Sign me up.

I do not want to play regular MTG with a thousand crossover cards shoved into every deck like the game is just one giant add for all of pop culture. That would be so disgusting and unfun. As cycnical as the community is, I find it hard to believe Wizards and Hasbro are really so ready to throw the entire IP into the sink. That makes no sense.

But the entire deal is wrapped up in chaos about the refusal to get a clear answer about format legalities for these products so no one knows what the game is supposed to look like now. Is magic going to keep being magic, or are they Heroes of the Storming this gak whether we like it or not? The worst part is that everyone is acting like Wizards can just shovel this off into commander so none of the other Constructed formats have to deal with it and Commander players won't care anyway. feth no, I care. Modern EDH isn't what it was 10 years ago when it was a pure bastion of janky nonsense and goofy plays. There are a lot of us who play the format thematically and don't want to be the donkey-caves at the table not wanting to play with Timmy's Master Chief deck or see someone randomly play Drop Pod Assault to pull five creatures from their deck, two of whom are Frodo and Homer Simpson.

And it's a shame, cause the idea of 40k Commander decks really writes itself. If it were it's own deal as a true spin-off not meant to be inserted into everyday Magic I'd probably be excited for it. Instead I'm annoyed by the inability of Wizards to actually relate to the community. Again.

The initial announcement might just be flawed.

I've been trying to point out in a few places that this announcement was never made to players. It was made at an investor meeting. The post they put on the website and are directing players to is just a copy paste of the original announcement.

We really don't know anything about these things other than that they exist and consumers weren't the target of the initial announcement, so some of the things said in it I'm skeptical of because I'm not sure they mean in that meeting what they mean to magic. A lot of MTG players don't realize how magic can often sound like a foreign language.

I see no reason to be salty about this. If there is money to be made let them make it.

If someone turns up at a MTG tourney with a Chaos Space Marine deck it will be no different from myriad other themed decks, it might even be fun to play and I would certainly be interested in seeing the cards if only for curiosities sake.

MTG doesnt really have a story, its a collage of all sorts of stuff, and I wish they would stop trying to shoehorn it into D&D. However MTG elements do not intrude on Forgotten Realms to my knowledge and there are no honest attempts to integrate it into the larger D&D canon universe so it can be seperated.

The thing is I would have zero problems have Pony decks, or Dalek decks, or 40K decks or D&D decks or Middle Earh decks in MTG as the port is one way only. MTG has or at least should have zero influence on 40K canon. So if Marneus Calgar suddenly channels white and blue and is tapped for some effect it happens in MTG and stays in MTG. It has zero bearing on 40K canon even as an apocrypha. Marneus Calgar himself doesn't know anything about it because as far as he is concerned its at the very most an in canon toy, and we aren't sure in which canon.
This is the way it should be as it puts MTG in its place as an anything goers of fantasy culture that has many port-ins but hopefully no port outs as it occupies a null space in fantasy culture.

Lore infringement for thee but not for me XD

Voss wrote:
That 'stamp' looks hilariously like a pair of patterned underwear.

When I first saw this I thought it was a salty comment supported by an extra large emoji.

"It will look pants" may be dated by is understandable lexicon in the UK at least.

A few people have noted that the stamp fits neatly over a Space Marine's crotch plate

Wow that was unexpected

Def interested to see what happens and what comes out - I still occassionally pick up MTG cards for the art (yeah I am odd) but a 40k expansion with a wide range of characters and factions would be very cool.

If its just Marines Red (Blood Angels), Blue (Ultramarines), Black (Dark Angels), Green (Salamanders) and White (White Scars) I won't bother.

Age of Sigmar would seem to fit better - in thats its another fantasy/steampunk world like many of the MTG ones. Love to have a Neferata MTG card

 LordofHats wrote:
Lore infringement for thee but not for me XD

Is it lore infringement though. So long as licences are paid and nobody's IP is being damaged, or there is a comic fair use as parody then let them get on with it.

I think there is a lack of understanding about one way crossovers. They mean zip to established canon and can be used for comic relief or cooperation. Examples being Batman vs Judge Dredd. Daleks invading Children in Need, the White Dwarf scenario of the Fellowship travels through Moria using 1st edition AD&D, numerous diss tracks on ERB etc etc.

Yes nerds like a contained canon with as few holes as possible. But being upset because the Ultramarines have invaded Ravnica by drop pod and are being faced off by the legions of Sauron, a splicer deck and a rat deck is just.... wrong. I might as well ask in which universe the Lego crossover occurred where Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker had a sing off. And does it upset your canon?




Let's take the case where MTG is in the best position to cause 'damage', which is the D&D universe canon as there is co-ownership. Ravnica may be ported into the D&D system, but has no place in D&D sourcebooks outside that set aside for Ravnica. So while the D&D cosmos has a unified whole you cant demand a portal in Sigil to Ravnica because Ravnica exists outside main D&D canon, and this is not like Athas which is separated from the D&D cosmos because its strange magics would damage the fabric of the cosmos in general. Ravnica is separated because from a D&D view it doesn't exist, just like Middle Earth doesn't exist, or the Imperium of Man, or us.
End users, a.k.a. DMs, can place their settings wherever they want including any of the fore-mentioned or elsewhere. Many DMs do this but it means nothing to the written canon.

 Mr Morden wrote:
If its just Marines Red (Blood Angels), Blue (Ultramarines), Black (Dark Angels), Green (Salamanders) and White (White Scars) I won't bother.

Leaving aside my annoyance to nerd a bit, there's been lots of speculation about this. Factors that embody certain factions don't match the play style that element has in game, and there's a heavy tilt toward white/red/black to me across all of 40k. That said;

-The Imperium seem like a shoe in for White. It's the color of order, civilization, and faith most of the time. Also angels. 40k Angels = Space Marines A card called Exterminatus that wipes the board is right at home in white. IG match the play style of White/Green decks very neatly (lots of flooding the board in cheap creatures) while Space Marines would slot right at home both in terms of gameplay and theme with White/Red, which tends to be artifact (wargear) focused and militant in style. Sisters of Battle also fit the White/Red paradigm, but could also work as White/Blue. White/Black could also fit the Imperium though, with White/Black tending to draw out Black's better nature and White's worst as oppressive and controlling which would fit the Imperium.
-Chaos is Black/Red. 1k Sons would be Black/Red/Blue, Death Guard Black/Red/Green. Red is chaos in Magic, but in terms of what Chaos is in 40k, Black is the better fit, but Black/Red is really just right there for representing Chaos Marines and Demons straight up. They're probably the easiest faction to place thematically and gameplay wise.
-Eldar seem like they'd be most at home in some variation of Blue, maybe Blue/Red or Blue/White. Blue/White often has a spirits and high wisdom focus to its theme and that seems very Eldar. Blue/Red is my preference. This is weird because Blue the control color and likes to play the long game, but in Magic that means it plays slow. Eldar are normally more of a glass cannon faction. Blue/Red really best encapsulates them. Maybe Blue/Red/White?
-Tau feel don't fit very cleanly into the color pie honestly. Not sure where I'd put them. They could be White, but they also have elements of Blue, Red, and Green depending on how the product would try to present them.
-Tyranids are Green/Blue, maybe Green/Blue/Black. A lot of people have also pointed out that Slivers are basically Tyrnids, so colorless can also work.
-Necrons feel Blue/Black to me but like the Tau they're not quite a clean fit. Zombies are black though, and the Necron's high tech is def blue. Black/Blue as a pairing tends to have lots of graveyard stuff, zombies included, and hand/deck disruption. Feels fitting but something about it also feels off. Can't put a finger on it.
-Orks are Red. They're probably the only 40k faction that actually feels right at home in Magic since 40k Orks and Magic Goblins are thematically very similar for the wacky things they can do, aggressive play, and tongue-in-cheek comic relief.

 Orlanth wrote:
I see no reason to be salty about this. If there is money to be made let them make it.

If someone turns up at a MTG tourney with a Chaos Space Marine deck it will be no different from myriad other themed decks, it might even be fun to play and I would certainly be interested in seeing the cards if only for curiosities sake.

MTG doesnt really have a story, its a collage of all sorts of stuff, and I wish they would stop trying to shoehorn it into D&D. However MTG elements do not intrude on Forgotten Realms to my knowledge and there are no honest attempts to integrate it into the larger D&D canon universe so it can be seperated.

The thing is I would have zero problems have Pony decks, or Dalek decks, or 40K decks or D&D decks or Middle Earh decks in MTG as the port is one way only. MTG has or at least should have zero influence on 40K canon. So if Marneus Calgar suddenly channels white and blue and is tapped for some effect it happens in MTG and stays in MTG. It has zero bearing on 40K canon even as an apocrypha. Marneus Calgar himself doesn't know anything about it because as far as he is concerned its at the very most an in canon toy, and we aren't sure in which canon.
This is the way it should be as it puts MTG in its place as an anything goers of fantasy culture that has many port-ins but hopefully no port outs as it occupies a null space in fantasy culture.

MtG certainly has a background story. Not a very well written one but there is an ongoing story for sure and it has very well defined characters and worlds (planes) a lot of which go back all the way to the '90s . Involving these other IPs in it and especially a grimdark sci-fi setting completely pollutes MtG's flavor.

From a GW/40K player's point of view, imagine this happens:

"Hello people, GW here! Since our crossover into Magic the Gathering was so succesfull we have good news! GW is proud to announce some brand new collaborations with Hasbro and Nintendo to produce more crossover products in the future. This time Hasbro and Nintendo's IPs will be introduced into 40K! Starting late 2022 GW will be producing plastic kits of the entire range of Pokemon characters as well as an entire range of Transformers kits, and all of them will have rules to be used in games of Warhammer 40.000. Feel free to mix and combine all these new awesome kits and rules into your excisting Warhammer 40K armies!"

^ This is EXACTLY what MtG Commander & Legacy players are looking at right now.

Imagine how you (40K players) would feel about showing up to the store with your Eldar army and you have Marneus Calgar looking at you from across the table flanked by freaking Pikachu, Squirtle and Optimus Prime. The lads at the next table have Tyranids & Sponge Bob squaring off against an all GI. Joe army led by The Great Unclean One.

My point exactly.

But that's also the absurdity of it. Surely that can't be what Wizards/Hasbro views as the future of their most profitable product. They've been frustrating vague and evasive about answering the basic question but when you sit and think about what the game becomes in the doomsday people fear, it becomes absurd to think that's the intent.

It just doesn't make sense.

Why would they take the best selling part of the entire business (Magic outsells all of Hasbro's toy lines combined, and has better margins) and turn it into an advertising platform and literally nothing else? Why would they devalue the base IP like that by completely selling it off as an engine for crossover promotions? Companies want money, and that would make money, but this is basically a proposal to destroy their most secure and stable product line and throw it into chaos. Company's are risk averse, and this image of the game is so insanely risky it boggles the mind. We're talking about a company that's too scared to reprint core cards everyone wants because if everyone gets them easily they might not buy booster packs anymore.

There's also the other direction, of why would GW want to permanently commit to their product being represented by a player tapping 3 mountains and playing an Orc Nob into summoning a free Swarmlord because some card effect lets them do it?

I really don't think that's what we're looking at, it's just that it's really hard to feel secure in that thought when we can't get straight answers especially because TWD cards are legal in some formats despite completely clashing with the Magic aesthetic.

 Orlanth wrote:


Yes nerds like a contained canon with as few holes as possible. But being upset because the Ultramarines have invaded Ravnica by drop pod and are being faced off by the legions of Sauron, a splicer deck and a rat deck is just.... wrong.

Excuse me but who are you exactly to decide this?

MtG has been a well defined setting since 1994 and it has never legitimately been polluted by outside intellectual properties.God forbid if it's players want to keep it that way, right?

What we'll get now is that some herpaderp will show up with his Atraxa/Bilbo/Ghazghkull Thraka/Rick Grimes commander deck looking for a game and he will get told to GTFO. I know my playgroup will tell him exactly that. Don't underestimate how pissed off Magic players are at this nonsense.

Mostly I find it hilarious that someone's opinion is basically MTG fans are wrong for not wanting 40k to encroach into their fun times, but definitely no porting of any MTG into mah 40k. That would just be wrong.

The level of cognitive dissonance.

 LordofHats wrote:
Mostly I find it hilarious that someone's opinion is basically MTG fans are wrong for not wanting 40k to encroach into their fun times, but definitely no porting of any MTG into mah 40k. That would just be wrong.

The level of cognitive dissonance.

Exactly.

Seeing things being said like "Magic doesn't have a story" makes it clear people don't have a clue about MtG and what is going on with it.

Can't we just treat it like Magic Unhinged?

 Overread wrote:
Can't we just treat it like Magic Unhinged?

I feel like that's what it's supposed to be.

It's notable that the proposed product is called Magic Universes Unbound, not Magic the Gathering Universes Beyond.

I wonder if the question we should be asking is really; Is The Gathering going to be it's own product line distinct from Universes Beyond, but both are supposed to be Magic? Some of the things I've seen come from devs seem suggestive that there's some kind of shake up planned not for the game people are playing now but the language and approach of the business itself.

Is this the first time that Magic the gathering has had a cross-over like this?

Can't wait to watch the Emperors glorious Space Marines, his Angels of Death, get completely rolled by my Squirrel deck.

The Emperors divine grace will not save you from Mr. Nutterbutters glorious horde.

 Necrosis wrote:
Is this the first time that Magic the gathering has had a cross-over like this?

Like this, yes I think. LOTR is getting a 'full expansion,' no explanation on what that specifically means. 40k is slated to have a release of pre-constructed Commander decks. To my knowledge, neither of those things have happened before in the game's history.

There have been other crossovers;

-There was a release of limited edition cards for The Walking Dead. This got a lot of backlash because the cards were limited, had unique mechanics, and one of them is quite powerful. A lot of fans disliked suddenly playing against Rick Grimes in the middle of a Magic game and further disliked that the cards were unique mechanically and of limited availability.
-When Ikoria released, they also released a series of Godzilla cards. Most of these were reskins of cards in the Ikoria set. They had the same mechanics (Mothra was the same as Luminous Broodmoth) save for Godzilla, who has a 'canon Magic' card that is equivalent to him but that card has never been printed so he is effectively a mechanically unique card. People were more receptive to this because the cards looked different but didn't have different mechanics. I actually have a couple of these for collector purposes. I'm in the camp who still things seeing these cards in play is immersion breaking.
-There have been cards in the past that were promotional (there are older LOTR cards for example) but these are very few and far between. There's never been a release where a crossover was the release's express purpose.
-EDIT: Some people have also pointed out the very old Arabian Nights and 3 Kingdoms releases, but I see that differently because those are open source IPs, free to be reinterpreted, and those sets are ancient, I've never seen any of those cards in play ever save for the reprinted Imperial Recruiter card that I didn't even know was originally from 3K because it doesn't remotely stand out aesthetically. These sets are mostly a non-issue outside of of supremely optimized legacy decks that are rarely played.

 Necrosis wrote:
Is this the first time that Magic the gathering has had a cross-over like this?

Well:



I'll laugh if she has better stats than a primarch

Pony's the Galloping were silver border products. By default they aren't legal for constructed play with regular Magic cards (they also used several unique mechanics that wouldn't fit in a regular magic game, EDIT: One of them even references cards that don't exist, and another requires you to have a MLP toy on hand to use it). No one ever really complained that they existed because those cards will never appear in a regular game of Magic unless we're using Rule 0 and house ruling it. They're basically the same thing as you and me sitting down for a 40k game and agreeing to let me play my off-brand Goonies IG models.

The current fuss is that it's confirmed these new products will have black border cards, which are usually taken as a signer of legality for constructed play.

they're probably black-bordered because a lot of people are basically scared of "unofficial" content, which silver-bordered cards pretty much are


if something is billed as not being suitable for typical play then fewer people are going to want to play with and against it

Rosebuddy wrote:
they're probably black-bordered because a lot of people are basically scared of "unofficial" content, which silver-bordered cards pretty much are

Mark Rosewater made a tweet that was roughly on these lines.

They don't want to make the new products silver border because silver border aren't 'real cards.' My contention however is that answer doesn't answer the question people are really asking. It rather sidesteps it to talk about how products are valued and regarded, not the relationship between the future MUB content and the current MTG content. The argument people are making that they must be intended to be the in the same play space (like it or gtfo?) seems to be in complete ignorance that most companies when launching new products launch new products. They don't suddenly inject them into a current product.

GW didn't launch Lord of the Rings by saying "Warhammer Fantasy Battles will now feature a crossover with Lord of the Rings" with LotR models intended to be played on the same tables in the same games.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
If its just Marines Red (Blood Angels), Blue (Ultramarines), Black (Dark Angels), Green (Salamanders) and White (White Scars) I won't bother.

Leaving aside my annoyance to nerd a bit, there's been lots of speculation about this. Factors that embody certain factions don't match the play style that element has in game, and there's a heavy tilt toward white/red/black to me across all of 40k. That said;

-The Imperium seem like a shoe in for White. It's the color of order, civilization, and faith most of the time. Also angels. 40k Angels = Space Marines A card called Exterminatus that wipes the board is right at home in white. IG match the play style of White/Green decks very neatly (lots of flooding the board in cheap creatures) while Space Marines would slot right at home both in terms of gameplay and theme with White/Red, which tends to be artifact (wargear) focused and militant in style. Sisters of Battle also fit the White/Red paradigm, but could also work as White/Blue. White/Black could also fit the Imperium though, with White/Black tending to draw out Black's better nature and White's worst as oppressive and controlling which would fit the Imperium.
-Chaos is Black/Red. 1k Sons would be Black/Red/Blue, Death Guard Black/Red/Green. Red is chaos in Magic, but in terms of what Chaos is in 40k, Black is the better fit, but Black/Red is really just right there for representing Chaos Marines and Demons straight up. They're probably the easiest faction to place thematically and gameplay wise.
-Eldar seem like they'd be most at home in some variation of Blue, maybe Blue/Red or Blue/White. Blue/White often has a spirits and high wisdom focus to its theme and that seems very Eldar. Blue/Red is my preference. This is weird because Blue the control color and likes to play the long game, but in Magic that means it plays slow. Eldar are normally more of a glass cannon faction. Blue/Red really best encapsulates them. Maybe Blue/Red/White?
-Tau feel don't fit very cleanly into the color pie honestly. Not sure where I'd put them. They could be White, but they also have elements of Blue, Red, and Green depending on how the product would try to present them.
-Tyranids are Green/Blue, maybe Green/Blue/Black. A lot of people have also pointed out that Slivers are basically Tyrnids, so colorless can also work.
-Necrons feel Blue/Black to me but like the Tau they're not quite a clean fit. Zombies are black though, and the Necron's high tech is def blue. Black/Blue as a pairing tends to have lots of graveyard stuff, zombies included, and hand/deck disruption. Feels fitting but something about it also feels off. Can't put a finger on it.
-Orks are Red. They're probably the only 40k faction that actually feels right at home in Magic since 40k Orks and Magic Goblins are thematically very similar for the wacky things they can do, aggressive play, and tongue-in-cheek comic relief.

Astartes and Sororitas as White Red. Organized but lethal.
Guard as White Green. All about massive units and hordes.
Titans as large Artifact Creatures
Craft world Eldar as White Blue. Organized Manipulators.
Harlequins as Blue, tricksters and manipulators.
Dark Eldar as Blue Red. Scheming but also thrillseekers
Ynnari as Blue Black.
Orks as Green Red. Chaotic hordes and massive machines and beasts.
Tau as Blue Green. Play the political game but also swarms of drones and massive aircraft and battlesuits
Tyranids as Green Black. All consuming Hordes.
Necrons as Black White. Ancient undead robotic society
Nurgle as Black Green. Death and decay, but also disease and life
Tzeentch. Black Blue. Chaotic Manipulator
Khorne as Black White. Murder but also martial.
Slaanesh as Black Red. Impulse and sensation.

Well, I can fully understand why you wouldn't want those cards in you every day magic, considering how I don't mix in my Munchkin 40k cards with the fantasy sets because it feels stupid, and not the good kind of stupid.

40k and an munchkin in space though... hilarious.

Yeah, I don't think there'd be so much toxicity about this if there were a clear answer about how people will be spending their playtime.

If these are products that are using Magic like a game engine, but are supposed to be their own deal, people could effecitively mix and match them when they feel like it (because they'd all be using the same rule set, it would be easy) and have those wacky and hilarious moments where you cast a Land Raider and crew it with Donald Duck, Percy Jackson, and buff it with Grabthar's Hammer. People can and will play these cards that way regardless because it'll be goofy fun.

I think the vitriol is spilling over because people don't want that to be the entire game and don't want to be made the donkey-caves declining to play hodgepodge IP decks at their tables.

 TBD wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


Yes nerds like a contained canon with as few holes as possible. But being upset because the Ultramarines have invaded Ravnica by drop pod and are being faced off by the legions of Sauron, a splicer deck and a rat deck is just.... wrong.

Excuse me but who are you exactly to decide this?

Orlanth, I can voice opinions same as you.
So please get over it.

 TBD wrote:

MtG has been a well defined setting since 1994 and it has never legitimately been polluted by outside intellectual properties.God forbid if it's players want to keep it that way, right?
What we'll get now is that some herpaderp will show up with his Atraxa/Bilbo/Ghazghkull Thraka/Rick Grimes commander deck looking for a game and he will get told to GTFO. I know my playgroup will tell him exactly that. Don't underestimate how pissed off Magic players are at this nonsense.

It takes a ,lot of salt to get offended by the flavour text on another players cards. If you are offended by having the above cards in a deck I hear rattles flying out of prams. MTG 'canon' is extra thin and has no bearing on the game. You can mix any card and any faction, the only exception being commander and then that exception is extremely loose. You already have the equivalent of multiple genre characters in a magic deck and it has been that way since alpha. I know, I was there.
Unlike 40K years, decades even went by before there was even the thinnest attempt at a narrative and it still means zip to the game.

Where is the 'herpaderp' when you can have any creature with any moral outlook, biome or origin in any army.
Even so when the canon was introduced it did include factions, some semblance of cultural continuity etc etc, yet many many cards (probably most but I havent bothered to check) exist totally outside of that and were never integrated and were never part of the narrative. The tie ins add to a feature that is already there.

 LordofHats wrote:
Mostly I find it hilarious that someone's opinion is basically MTG fans are wrong for not wanting 40k to encroach into their fun times, but definitely no porting of any MTG into mah 40k. That would just be wrong.
The level of cognitive dissonance.

The cognitive dissonance is comparing a free for all card game where anything goes that has been structureless since its origins in the early 90's with a game system which had faction narrative built into it from the ground up from its origin a half decade earlier. You can add a big gribbly monster to a deck of humans, it happens all the time, it is so not unusual nobody will notice it happening. But you still can't have a carnifex in a space marine army, you never have and likely never will and it would almost always be questioned at some level.

That just tells me you don't know much about Magic.