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Beardedragon wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

theres no difference between a hit and a hit roll, one is just required to be rolled where as the other auto hits.

What ???? I suggest you read the core rules, before engaging in rules discussions. A hit is a successful hit roll, after you rolled a dice, and a hit roll is when you roll the dice. Hit rolls arent auto hits. As a matter of fact, there are no hit rolls for auto hits, because they hit automatically, hence the name.

regardless that has nothing to do with whether the tankhammer should get one or two hits.

IF theres a comment to be made on why it shouldnt, it should be that its an ability and abilities dont trigger twice.
the tankhammer doesnt have a D3 MW damage value profile.

Again, not true. If i shoot you with a gun which has multiple shots, and does 1MW in addition to normal damage, you suffer multiple MWs. The reason why tankhammer doesnt do 2D3 MW is because the bearer is slain after the first attack.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
theres no difference between a hit and a hit roll, one is just required to be rolled where as the other auto hits. Sequence wise its exactly the same. If the exploding Goff 6s gave a hit rather than a hit roll, it wouldnt make any difference.

This is 100% false. A hit automatically goes to the WOUND ROLL step. A hit roll does not.

The extra hit does NOT start another attack sequence.

Again this is false, because you "make one hit roll for that attack" if it is not a separate attack sequence, you you can not actually roll the additional hit roll.

P. 18 PDF rulebook wrote:When a model makes an attack, make one hit roll for that attack

Beardedragon wrote:
One attack with two hits

This, of course is false as I have shown.

okay i like what you're saying because that makes a morkanaut/gorkanaut borderline OP.

Each attack with the smash profile nets 3 hits, so if one exploding 6 from goff is one more attack, that means EACH exploding 6 gives 3 hits.

Imagine making just 2 exploding 6s thats a total of 6 extra hit rolls as each exploding 6 starts another attack sequence.

Thats god damn insane.

Smash = Make 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon

Gorkanaut has 6 attacks x3 per the hits, thats 18 normally. thats how it works normally, and people use exploding 6s to add 1 more hit, not one more attack to this pool of a total of 3 for each.

But you're now saying all the extra 6s adds 3 more hits. thats mental

Aash wrote:

I don't see a way to resolve this without breaking one of the two rules. Unfortunately, it seems to be a case where a roll-off is required until (if?) a FAQ is issued. :(

I think I agree with you on this, although I believe the Tankhammer takes precedence in the meantime. It's rule is specific to itself, so it takes priority over the more general rule for Goffs.

I think it's useful if we go back to first principles of resolving attacks. I've numbered them just to relate them to my later explanation.

1.1; Each attack is one hit-roll. If a gun has multiple shots or an axe has multiple swings, they're making multiple attacks.
1.2; According to Rare Rules, additional hit rolls are additional attacks.
* Gorkanaught's Smash says for each attack they make multiple hit rolls. However, Goffs head that off by entering directly at the hit roll stage.
2.1; Attacks are [normally] resolved sequentially, one at a time. You can only 'fast roll' if sequencing doesn't matter.
2.2; Models make attacks
2.3; We know that changes mid-attack take effect mid-attack. For example if exposed units are killed the remaining units will gain the benefit of cover.
* abilities like plasma specifically state the user is slain after all attacks are resolved, the exception proving the rule.

Enter; the Tankhammer.
1. Each hit roll is an attack, the Tankhammer is only allowed to make one.
2. As soon as your first attack hits and is resolved, the user is slain. There's no longer a model left to make and/or resolve the bonus attack.
3. The Tankhammer can only make a single attack, it's not allowed to use the bonus.

Beardedragon wrote:
okay i like what you're saying because that makes a morkanaut/gorkanaut borderline OP.

Each attack with the smash profile nets 3 hits,

Again you are not using the correct terminology, it does not net 3 hits. You do get to "Make 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon." so there is that.

so if one exploding 6 from goff is one more attack, that means EACH exploding 6 gives 3 hits.

Imagine making just 2 exploding 6s thats a total of 6 extra hits.

Thats god damn insane.

Smash = Make 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon

Again, 2 exploding 6s is not a total of 6 extra hits. It is a total of 6 extra attack rolls. which, depending on the wounds of the vehicle may or may not have a good chance of hitting anything. So not all that OP especially for the points of that thing.

40K rulebook, Rare rules section, Attacks that make multiple hit rolls sub-section wrote:Some rules, typically weapon abilities, tell you to roll more than one hit roll for each attack made , e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, make 2 hit rolls instead of 1’. In these cases, each hit roll is treated as a separate attack that is made against the same target.

So now can we all agree that the Goffs rules allow for an additional attack, by virtue of giving you another hit roll, and there would have been two separate attacks which is not allowed by the Tankhammer?

Id like to point out that all the times i wrote "hit" in my post above i meant a hit roll obviously when talking the gorkanauts and goffs.

Goffs dont get extra hits, they get hit rolls. its just a typo.


But i absolutely refuse to believe that gorkanauts and morkanauts are intentionally meant to have 3 extra hit rolls per each exploding 6. the attack profile states you get 3 hit rolls per 1 attack, and goff immediately gives 1 extra hit roll. How can that 1 hit roll suddenly be an actual attack that starts a new attack sequence that instead gives me 3 attacks? doesnt make any sense. Extra hit rolls dont suddenly add 1 to the attack characteristic so surely it should still only get 1 hit roll, not 3.

That would be super mental

What if instead of a hit roll with the tankbusta, it just generated a generic S:U attack, as it no longer has a weapon to attack with? Nothing in Goff or the other rules mandate the second attack must be made with the same weapon the first attack is made with? I am likely wrong on this, but cannot support it, and just wanted to see if it was a possible solution to a broken rule.


And yes, a 30 point spammable unit doing 2d3 MWs is broken. A full squad of these guys could drop Morty and thats saying something.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What if instead of a hit roll with the tankbusta, it just generated a generic S:U attack, as it no longer has a weapon to attack with? Nothing in Goff or the other rules mandate the second attack must be made with the same weapon the first attack is made with? I am likely wrong on this, but cannot support it, and just wanted to see if it was a possible solution to a broken rule.


And yes, a 30 point spammable unit doing 2d3 MWs is broken. A full squad of these guys could drop Morty and thats saying something.

This.

I actually thought about exactly that, as an ability cant trigger twice so technically it should maybe get a normal attack?

However they are not spammable. you can have 1 tankhammer in a group of 5 normal tankbustas.

So 15 tankbustas only have 3 hammers. and they still would only get exploding 6s on .. well a 6 if thats how it works. Its not a suicide squad, although that could be amazing.

Beardedragon wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
But as I pointed out earlier, you don't get damage for every hit you cause.
You get damage if the attack hits.

Imagine a skeet shooting contest, you get a point if you hit the pigeon. Doesn't matter if you hit it with one pellet or two or six.

but this isnt real life.

my dakka dakka says i get a guaranteed hit and an extra hit roll, and the bomb squig says it dies after its "attack" not its hit. and given one attack can have several hits it all checks up.

Which if i had realized before i wouldnt need this thread.

huh. nice.

So dakka dakka gives extra hits for the bomb squig, and the exploding 6 hits for Goffs gives extra hits to tankhammers.

Ah but the hammer isn't for every hit you get d3 mw. If your(1) attack hits you get d3 mw. If you get 2 hits it sure is your attack has hit. So you get d3mw.

2nd hit isn't relevant. It's "did you hit or not". Not "for each hit you get d3 mw"

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Aash wrote:

I don't see a way to resolve this without breaking one of the two rules. Unfortunately, it seems to be a case where a roll-off is required until (if?) a FAQ is issued. :(

I think I agree with you on this, although I believe the Tankhammer takes precedence in the meantime. It's rule is specific to itself, so it takes priority over the more general rule for Goffs.

I think it's useful if we go back to first principles of resolving attacks. I've numbered them just to relate them to my later explanation.

1.1; Each attack is one hit-roll. If a gun has multiple shots or an axe has multiple swings, they're making multiple attacks.
1.2; According to Rare Rules, additional hit rolls are additional attacks.
* Gorkanaught's Smash says for each attack they make multiple hit rolls. However, Goffs head that off by entering directly at the hit roll stage.
2.1; Attacks are [normally] resolved sequentially, one at a time. You can only 'fast roll' if sequencing doesn't matter.
2.2; Models make attacks
2.3; We know that changes mid-attack take effect mid-attack. For example if exposed units are killed the remaining units will gain the benefit of cover.
* abilities like plasma specifically state the user is slain after all attacks are resolved, the exception proving the rule.

Enter; the Tankhammer.
1. Each hit roll is an attack, the Tankhammer is only allowed to make one.
2. As soon as your first attack hits and is resolved, the user is slain. There's no longer a model left to make and/or resolve the bonus attack.
3. The Tankhammer can only make a single attack, it's not allowed to use the bonus.

I would be willing to play it this way. I think this is a decent argument for RAI, but not definitive enough to be RAW. (with the caveat that i still disagree over the model being slain so is unable to make a bonus attack, due to sequencing, as I previously mentioned, so I'd remove point 2 from your sequence, but the final outcome of only making one attack is not unreasonable.)

 kirotheavenger wrote:
As previously shown by Alextroy, additional hit rolls ARE additional attacks.

As I see it, you can't have it both ways.
If it were two hit rolls for one attack, it's only d3 mortal wounds because the rule triggers if the attack hits. Not for each time the attack hits.
If, as it is, hit rolls are additional attacks, it's only d3 mortal wounds because you can only make a single attack. It seems very specific about being a single attack. Not to mention the guy's now dead.
I'm pretty sure all rules that allow models to attack post-mortem are quite specific in that they're played after the model is slain but before removing the model, the tankhammer doesn't have this timing.

I believe you're wrong because the model makes an attack, and can only make one, but that attack can generate an extra hit, which is considered an extra attack. Not part of the original attack, an indepented one that the first attack makes, not the weapon's bearer. So both (assuming the second attacks hits) can actually deal MWs, as they are independent after they are generated. Like two single blows delivered by two different models with a tankhammer. The point is the model is not dead when the player rolls for the second hit and he even haven't made more than one attack. It's the original attack that generates a second one, and after that they are separate attacks that go against the same target, not a single attack represented by two dice. The bearer only makes one attack and dies after that, and even if it doesn't he could only make one, but it's not the bearer that makes the second attack. That's why there's a chance of getting two hits from one attack and both can deal mortal wounds. RAW it's how the things are.

In the same way in the case of the bomb squig and dakkadakkadakka the lucky 6 to hit definitely grants an additional hit roll. The model isn't firing, dying and then firing again. The model is firing and then dying, but the shot he fires can generate an extra hit roll/attack.

The model firing with DDD or fighting under the goffs trait is not doing an action that allows him to do something more after that. This is something people struggle to understand and that's where all the confusion come from.

And no, 27ppm thankhammer dudes are absolute garbage, the opposite of a broken combo. We're talking about extremely expensive units that are wiped out by the firepower of a regular enemy troop unit, sometimes even a dedicated transport can wipe out the tankbustas. And MW are only achieved in melee, with extremely small chances (less than 18%) to get 2D3 MW. In fact despite Goffs being extremely popular and tankbustas a solid option for that klan no one plays with tankhunters. Not even the guys who actually own the models, they just proxy them as regular rokkit launchas.

but it IS correct though that the tankhammer ability to deal MW is.. well an ability, and abilities cant be used twice, no?

That is still the biggest argument against why tankhammers shouldnt be able to hit twice. I would otherwise agree.


The squig bomb is different, because its damage is not an ability, it has an actual damage profile which can trigger twice.

its a fact that the squig bomb gets 2 hits from dakka dakka, but being an ability with the tankhammer, im not so sure about it.

Beardedragon wrote:
but it IS correct though that the tankhammer ability to deal MW is.. well an ability, and abilities cant be used twice, no?

The Tankhammer can't be used twice because it specifically says you only get 1 attack/hit roll with it, and of course the bearer is dead.

 Blackie wrote:
I believe you're wrong because the model makes an attack, and can only make one, but that attack can generate an extra hit, which is considered an extra attack.

This is not correct. That attack can not generate an extra hit. The Goffs rules allow for an additional attack, by virtue of giving you another hit roll. So the attack can generate another attack.

A hit roll = an attack. as per the rare rules section I quoted earlier "each hit roll is treated as a separate attack..."

Not part of the original attack,

Yes, a second attack is not a part of the original attack. The Tankhammer disallows multiple attacks with the weapon though.

So both (assuming the second attacks hits) can actually deal MWs, as they are independent after they are generated

Incorrect, as the Tankhammer can't make multiple attacks.

The point is the model is not dead when the player rolls for the second hit and he even haven't made more than one attack.

Again this is incorrect, the model is dead as soon as he hits with the first attack, and the Goffs rule absolutely lets you make a second attack if you roll a nat 6. Remember each hit roll is treated as a separate attack.

It's the original attack that generates a second one, and after that they are separate attacks that go against the same target, not a single attack represented by two dice.

This first part is correct though. It is a separate attack and "not a single attack represented by two dice." (Whatever that is, because that doesn't exist).

but it's not the bearer that makes the second attack. That's why there's a chance of getting two hits from one attack and both can deal mortal wounds. RAW it's how the things are.

This is not at all what the RAW says. Only models make attacks. There is no chance of getting two hits from one attack for the Tankhammer. and the Goffs rule allows for a second attack. (The goffs do not give you two hits from one attack at all).

And no, 27ppm thankhammer dudes are absolute garbage, the opposite of a broken combo.

I would check the points again, I have a Tankbustas model with Tankhammer clocking in at 17 points, not 27.

Beardedragon wrote:
the tankhammers definitely needs a GW overview to even out the odds and ends and and explain what works and what doesnt, even though its a completely odd scenario one would never be in.

Yeah I feel like this scenario is most likely caused by the fact that no one, not one person, nobody, zero people have ever since the new ork codex fielded a tankhammer. It's just never come up!

 DeathReaper wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
but it IS correct though that the tankhammer ability to deal MW is.. well an ability, and abilities cant be used twice, no?

The Tankhammer can't be used twice because it specifically says you only get 1 attack/hit roll with it, and of course the bearer is dead.

 Blackie wrote:
I believe you're wrong because the model makes an attack, and can only make one, but that attack can generate an extra hit, which is considered an extra attack.

This is not correct. That attack can not generate an extra hit. The Goffs rules allow for an additional attack, by virtue of giving you another hit roll. So the attack can generate another attack.

A hit roll = an attack. as per the rare rules section I quoted earlier "each hit roll is treated as a separate attack..."

Not part of the original attack,

Yes, a second attack is not a part of the original attack. The Tankhammer disallows multiple attacks with the weapon though.

So both (assuming the second attacks hits) can actually deal MWs, as they are independent after they are generated

Incorrect, as the Tankhammer can't make multiple attacks.

The point is the model is not dead when the player rolls for the second hit and he even haven't made more than one attack.

Again this is incorrect, the model is dead as soon as he hits with the first attack, and the Goffs rule absolutely lets you make a second attack if you roll a nat 6. Remember each hit roll is treated as a separate attack.

It's the original attack that generates a second one, and after that they are separate attacks that go against the same target, not a single attack represented by two dice.

This first part is correct though. It is a separate attack and "not a single attack represented by two dice." (Whatever that is, because that doesn't exist).

but it's not the bearer that makes the second attack. That's why there's a chance of getting two hits from one attack and both can deal mortal wounds. RAW it's how the things are.

This is not at all what the RAW says. Only models make attacks. There is no chance of getting two hits from one attack for the Tankhammer. and the Goffs rule allows for a second attack. (The goffs do not give you two hits from one attack at all).

And no, 27ppm thankhammer dudes are absolute garbage, the opposite of a broken combo.

I would check the points again, I have a Tankbustas model with Tankhammer clocking in at 17 points, not 27.

You sure are very "factual" on a subject thats completely messed up on GWs side and can clearly be understood either way. there are arguments for and against why you should or should not have two attacks with the tankhammer. You have your opinion that i completely disagree with, i have mine.

I only see 1 reason why the tankhammer shouldnt hit twice and thats because its an ability. Granted, that is a very large reason so i would be fine with that. But thats literally it, nothing to do with the attack, because goff hit rolls tie to that attack, they dont magically add 1 to the attack characteristic. It specifically says it adds a hit roll immediately, thats how i read it, thats how i understand it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
the tankhammers definitely needs a GW overview to even out the odds and ends and and explain what works and what doesnt, even though its a completely odd scenario one would never be in.

Yeah I feel like this scenario is most likely caused by the fact that no one, not one person, nobody, zero people have ever since the new ork codex fielded a tankhammer. It's just never come up!

for sure. As you say nobody even uses tankhammers. I would if i could just field all of my tankbustas as them, but since we cant they're just dead meat anyway. the entire discussion is somewhat pointless because of that reason, but even so, id still like an answer. I only started the discussion because i got my hands on 10 tankbustas, and when i get new units i havent had before, i look in to all their rules so i know what works and doesnt, thats why i thought about tankhammers and goffs, because i often play Goff.

In fact i wrote to GW earlier for a clarification even though i will never use them. Will i get an answer? we'll see. If i get one, ill post it in the discussion.

Beardedragon wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
but it IS correct though that the tankhammer ability to deal MW is.. well an ability, and abilities cant be used twice, no?

The Tankhammer can't be used twice because it specifically says you only get 1 attack/hit roll with it, and of course the bearer is dead.

 Blackie wrote:
I believe you're wrong because the model makes an attack, and can only make one, but that attack can generate an extra hit, which is considered an extra attack.

This is not correct. That attack can not generate an extra hit. The Goffs rules allow for an additional attack, by virtue of giving you another hit roll. So the attack can generate another attack.

A hit roll = an attack. as per the rare rules section I quoted earlier "each hit roll is treated as a separate attack..."

Not part of the original attack,

Yes, a second attack is not a part of the original attack. The Tankhammer disallows multiple attacks with the weapon though.

So both (assuming the second attacks hits) can actually deal MWs, as they are independent after they are generated

Incorrect, as the Tankhammer can't make multiple attacks.

The point is the model is not dead when the player rolls for the second hit and he even haven't made more than one attack.

Again this is incorrect, the model is dead as soon as he hits with the first attack, and the Goffs rule absolutely lets you make a second attack if you roll a nat 6. Remember each hit roll is treated as a separate attack.

It's the original attack that generates a second one, and after that they are separate attacks that go against the same target, not a single attack represented by two dice.

This first part is correct though. It is a separate attack and "not a single attack represented by two dice." (Whatever that is, because that doesn't exist).

but it's not the bearer that makes the second attack. That's why there's a chance of getting two hits from one attack and both can deal mortal wounds. RAW it's how the things are.

This is not at all what the RAW says. Only models make attacks. There is no chance of getting two hits from one attack for the Tankhammer. and the Goffs rule allows for a second attack. (The goffs do not give you two hits from one attack at all).

And no, 27ppm thankhammer dudes are absolute garbage, the opposite of a broken combo.

I would check the points again, I have a Tankbustas model with Tankhammer clocking in at 17 points, not 27.

You sure are very "factual" on a subject thats completely messed up on GWs side and can clearly be understood either way.

It can not be understood either way, it can be understood one way, and misunderstood the other way that gives them two attacks with a weapon that says to "only make a single attack".

there are arguments for and against why you should or should not have two attacks with the tankhammer. You have your opinion that i completely disagree with, i have mine.

You disagreeing does not change what the rules say. There are not any valid arguments for having two attacks with the tankhammer. The Tankhammer itself limits it to a single attack. The Tankhammer rules state to "only make a single attack " two attacks is not "a single attack"

I only see 1 reason why the tankhammer shouldnt hit twice and thats because its an ability. Granted, that is a very large reason so i would be fine with that. But thats literally it, nothing to do with the attack, because goff hit rolls tie to that attack, they dont magically add 1 to the attack characteristic. It specifically says it adds a hit roll immediately, thats all.

No one said it added 1 to the attack characteristic. It says " make an additional hit roll against the same target using the same weapon." (Goffs No Mukkin' About rules).

As I have shown, a hit roll = an attack, so you follow the attack sequence for the rule if able. With the Tankhammer you are not able to do so.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
but it IS correct though that the tankhammer ability to deal MW is.. well an ability, and abilities cant be used twice, no?

The Tankhammer can't be used twice because it specifically says you only get 1 attack/hit roll with it, and of course the bearer is dead.

 Blackie wrote:
I believe you're wrong because the model makes an attack, and can only make one, but that attack can generate an extra hit, which is considered an extra attack.

This is not correct. That attack can not generate an extra hit. The Goffs rules allow for an additional attack, by virtue of giving you another hit roll. So the attack can generate another attack.

A hit roll = an attack. as per the rare rules section I quoted earlier "each hit roll is treated as a separate attack..."

Not part of the original attack,

Yes, a second attack is not a part of the original attack. The Tankhammer disallows multiple attacks with the weapon though.

So both (assuming the second attacks hits) can actually deal MWs, as they are independent after they are generated

Incorrect, as the Tankhammer can't make multiple attacks.

The point is the model is not dead when the player rolls for the second hit and he even haven't made more than one attack.

Again this is incorrect, the model is dead as soon as he hits with the first attack, and the Goffs rule absolutely lets you make a second attack if you roll a nat 6. Remember each hit roll is treated as a separate attack.

It's the original attack that generates a second one, and after that they are separate attacks that go against the same target, not a single attack represented by two dice.

This first part is correct though. It is a separate attack and "not a single attack represented by two dice." (Whatever that is, because that doesn't exist).

but it's not the bearer that makes the second attack. That's why there's a chance of getting two hits from one attack and both can deal mortal wounds. RAW it's how the things are.

This is not at all what the RAW says. Only models make attacks. There is no chance of getting two hits from one attack for the Tankhammer. and the Goffs rule allows for a second attack. (The goffs do not give you two hits from one attack at all).

And no, 27ppm thankhammer dudes are absolute garbage, the opposite of a broken combo.

I would check the points again, I have a Tankbustas model with Tankhammer clocking in at 17 points, not 27.

You sure are very "factual" on a subject thats completely messed up on GWs side and can clearly be understood either way.

It can not be understood either way, it can be understood one way, and misunderstood the other way that gives them two attacks with a weapon that says to "only make a single attack".

there are arguments for and against why you should or should not have two attacks with the tankhammer. You have your opinion that i completely disagree with, i have mine.

You disagreeing does not change what the rules say. There are not any valid arguments for having two attacks with the tankhammer. The Tankhammer itself limits it to a single attack. The Tankhammer rules state to "only make a single attack " two attacks is not "a single attack"

I only see 1 reason why the tankhammer shouldnt hit twice and thats because its an ability. Granted, that is a very large reason so i would be fine with that. But thats literally it, nothing to do with the attack, because goff hit rolls tie to that attack, they dont magically add 1 to the attack characteristic. It specifically says it adds a hit roll immediately, thats all.

No one said it added 1 to the attack characteristic. It says " make an additional hit roll against the same target using the same weapon." (Goffs No Mukkin' About rules).

As I have shown, a hit roll = an attack, so you follow the attack sequence for the rule if able. With the Tankhammer you are not able to do so.

there in lies where im disagreeing with you, because its a fact, that an attack can have two hits.

Like smash profiles from Gorkanauts, it makes 3 hits per attack.

Meaning, its not out of the realm of possibilities of a tankhammer, based on THAT point at least, that it could make two hit rolls. hence why i always point towards it being an ability, and that might be the reason it shouldnt be able to have two hits. But the fact it states it can only make a single attack, does not contradict the goff rule on itself, as one attack can have several hits.

Goff makes additional hit rolls, not additional attacks, it says so on the rule.

If you make two dakka dakkas with 2 shots, for a total of 4 hit rolls, you still only made 2 attacks, but 4 hit rolls.

A gorkanaut with the smash profile also doesnt make 3 attacks, it makes 3 hit rolls that counts as its one attack. and then it proceeds to do that 5 more times for a total of 18 hit rolls. Each goff 6 would not add 3 more hit rolls because they are not attacks, they are hit rolls.If thats how it worked then you start with 18 hit rolls but end up on probably well over 40 CC hit rolls if each 6, out of those 18 hit rolls, were to add 3 more hit rolls.

You do NOT get 3 hit rolls per goff 6 when using a gorkanaut/morkanaut, you get 1 because they are hit rolls, not attacks.

Gorkanaughts don't make 3 hits per attack.
You make 3 hit rolls per attack it makes.
Each of those hit rolls is then treated as a separate attack.
The Rare Rules FAQ and Gorkanaught datasheet are fairly unambiguous on this.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Gorkanaughts don't make 3 hits per attack.
You make 3 hit rolls per attack it makes.
Each of those hit rolls is treated as a separate attack.

thats what im saying. it makes 3 hit rolls per attack

but if the guy above is meant to be correct, then each goff exploding 6 is an attack, and that one attack would add 3 more hit rolls per 6.


Do the math and tell me thats intentional then. 18 starting hit rolls, each 6 you roll adds 3 more hit rolls because he claims each hit roll is an attack.

and attacks add 3 hit rolls.

Thats not how it works. just look at the math thats out of this world.

But that's still making multiple attacks, which isn't allowed with a tank hammer. I don't see what point you think you're supporting with that example.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
But that's still making multiple attacks, which isn't allowed with a tank hammer. I don't see what point you think you're supporting with that example.

my point is, goffs make extra hit rolls not attacks. Because if they made extra attacks, Goffs Gorkanauts and Morkanauts would be insane. it clearly states on the goff ability it adds a hit roll, not an attack. so each 6, is exactly that, a hit roll not an attack.

So either you are right, and the Tankhammer dont get additional attacks because each goff 6 is an attack rather than a hit roll and the tankhammer can only make a single attack or the Gorkanauts/morkanauts used by Goffs have an insane close combat buff that would net you close to 40 CC hits with strength 8 if you are lucky.

If you are right, Gorks/morks are OP, if im right, the tankhammer gets 2 hits (at least based on that part, again, if its an ability it still wouldnt) and the gorks/morks arent op anymore



If each hit roll is an attack, then this sentence: Make 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon. makes the gorks/morks in to the craziest CC machine ive ever seen

But the point is extra hit rolls count as extra attacks.
There are no hits that aren't part of an attack. 1 roll = 1 attack and vice versa.

It's not a me or you situation, the wording of both the FAQ and Gorkanaught is quite clear that you are wrong on both accounts.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
But the point is extra hit rolls count as extra attacks.
There are no hits that aren't part of an attack. 1 roll = 1 attack and vice versa.

It's not a me or you situation, the wording of both the FAQ and Gorkanaught is quite clear that you are wrong on both accounts.

so a gorkanaut gets 3 hit rolls per exploding 6? even though it clearly states, that each attack is 3 hit rolls, and the goff exploding 6 also clearly states that rolling a 6, adds a hit roll not an attack?

Because we trace it back to the rules that states that somehow, all hit rolls are attacks?


the wording seem quite clear on whats meant to happen (based on the ork codex and rules, you're clearly only meant to get 1 extra hit roll per 6), but the rules kind of over rules everything and turns the gork/morkanauts in to death machines

I've just quoted where I've already explained the situation rather than retype it all.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

I think it's useful if we go back to first principles of resolving attacks. I've numbered them just to relate them to my later explanation.

1.1; Each attack is one hit-roll. If a gun has multiple shots or an axe has multiple swings, they're making multiple attacks.
1.2; According to Rare Rules, additional hit rolls are additional attacks.
* Gorkanaught's Smash says for each attack they make multiple hit rolls. However, Goffs head that off by entering directly at the hit roll stage.

Enter; the Tankhammer.
1. Each hit roll is an attack, the Tankhammer is only allowed to make one.
3. The Tankhammer can only make a single attack, it's not allowed to use the bonus.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I've just quoted where I've already explained the situation rather than retype it all.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

I think it's useful if we go back to first principles of resolving attacks. I've numbered them just to relate them to my later explanation.

1.1; Each attack is one hit-roll. If a gun has multiple shots or an axe has multiple swings, they're making multiple attacks.
1.2; According to Rare Rules, additional hit rolls are additional attacks.
* Gorkanaught's Smash says for each attack they make multiple hit rolls. However, Goffs head that off by entering directly at the hit roll stage.

Enter; the Tankhammer.
1. Each hit roll is an attack, the Tankhammer is only allowed to make one.
3. The Tankhammer can only make a single attack, it's not allowed to use the bonus.

i dont understand by that, if you agree or disagree.

But someone wrote the following: *Page 363 – Rare Rules
Add the following:
Attacks That Make Multiple Hit Rolls
Some rules, typically weapon abilities, tell you to roll more than one hit roll for each attack made , e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, make 2 hit rolls instead of 1’. In these cases, each hit roll is treated as a separate attack that is made against the same target. As such, all normal rules that are triggered by attacks, or that apply to attacks (such as re-rolls or modifiers conferred by other rules) apply to each ‘hit roll’. Note that these additional attacks do not themselves result in more hit rolls being made.

By that standard, each hit roll of exploding 6 becomes an actual attack. And an actual attack gives 3 hit rolls for the smash profile. Gorkanauts/morkanauts have suddenly become OP in CC.

if i understand it correctly that is. however, i have NO idea where that rule is written, i cant find it anywhere.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is also written in an FAQ:
If any
additional hits are scored as the result of a particular hit roll,
those additional hits are not considered to have been made with
any hit roll – they simply hit the target and you must continue
the attack sequence for them (i.e. make a wound roll).

What do you make of this when it comes to the tankhammers? As i see it, that exploding 6 that gives another hit roll, actually means you're supposed to pretend you didnt have to roll for it and it just tags along with the sequence. According to that, the Tankhammers CAN make two hits with their hammer as it says you must continue the attack sequence and the hit roll, simply hits.

This tie up exactly as i envisioned dakkadakka and goff 6's, being tied to the attack that triggered it.

I'm not going to quote since there are too many posts, but I will summarize some points I think are being interpreted incorrectly:

1. "Extra Hit Rolls are extra attacks": That is not what the FAQ says. It says "In these cases, each hit roll is treated as a separate attack that is made against the same target. As such, all normal rules that are triggered by attacks, or that apply to attacks (such as re-rolls or modifiers conferred by other rules) apply to each ‘hit roll’." Treated means follow the same rules, not that it is an attack. They even went so far in the next sentence to again reiterate that it is a hit roll, not an attack. Therefore, any rules such as "make X hit rolls per attack" or "can only make 1 attack" do not apply to these Hit Rolls. This is different from a rule such as Death to the False Emperor that grants an additional attack. In such a case, that attack could have multiple Hit Rolls if the weapon said so.

2. "The Tankbusta is dead, so can't make the attack": Actually, they are required to make an another Hit Roll immediately upon the unmodified Hit Roll of 6. That is before you resolve the result of the Hit Roll. So assuming it hits on that Hit Roll, you then have two hits from one attack. You then resolve each hit like it was a separate attack, which normally would be rolling to wound, target saving, and damage being inflicted. In this case, "the target suffers d3 mortal wounds and the bearer is slain" for each hit. We do have the side issue of the model 'attacking' while dead, but we Hit before we died, so I am heavily inclined to complete the action already in play since the rules don't tell me not to.

3. "The Tankhammer says I can only make one Attack...": This applies to when the model is making its attacks but not to special rules that specifically tell you to make another attack. After all, the rules also tell you "The number of attacks a model makes is determined by its Attacks (A) characteristic, which can be found on its datasheet. For example, if a model has an A of 2, it can make two attacks." Yet I don't hear anyone saying you can't gain additional attacks above your Attacks characteristic via a special rule. This is no different.

Beardedragon wrote:
there in lies where im disagreeing with you, because its a fact, that an attack can have two hits.

This is not the situation with the Tankhammer though, and as such is irrelevant.

Goff makes additional hit rolls, not additional attacks, it says so on the rule.

Hit rolls are equivalent to attacks, so it saying you get additional hit rolls is the same as saying you get additional attacks. This is proven because of the Rare rules that I cited earlier, I will cite them again.

40K rulebook, Rare rules section, Attacks that make multiple hit rolls sub-section wrote:Some rules, typically weapon abilities, tell you to roll more than one hit roll for each attack made , e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, make 2 hit rolls instead of 1’. In these cases, each hit roll is treated as a separate attack that is made against the same target.

It literally says "each hit roll is treated as a separate attack" so an extra hit roll = an extra attack.

Beardedragon wrote:
If you make two dakka dakkas with 2 shots, for a total of 4 hit rolls, you still only made 2 attacks, but 4 hit rolls.

Incorrect, as noted in the rare rules above. Hit rolls = Attacks. so 4 hit rolls is 4 attacks.

A gorkanaut with the smash profile also doesnt make 3 attacks, it makes 3 hit rolls that counts as its one attack. and then it proceeds to do that 5 more times for a total of 18 hit rolls. Each goff 6 would not add 3 more hit rolls because they are not attacks, they are hit rolls.If thats how it worked then you start with 18 hit rolls but end up on probably well over 40 CC hit rolls if each 6, out of those 18 hit rolls, were to add 3 more hit rolls.

You do NOT get 3 hit rolls per goff 6 when using a gorkanaut/morkanaut, you get 1 because they are hit rolls, not attacks.

Incorrect, as noted in the rare rules above. Hit rolls = Attacks.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Gorkanaughts don't make 3 hits per attack.
You make 3 hit rolls per attack it makes.
Each of those hit rolls is then treated as a separate attack.
The Rare Rules FAQ and Gorkanaught datasheet are fairly unambiguous on this.

100% this. I would add that the dataslate is 100% unambiguous on this.

If the GORKANAUT has 6 attacks, and you use the Smash profile it says "Make 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon." 3 hit rolls = 3 attacks, so if you use Smash for all 6 attacks, the GORKANAUT has 18 attacks that you need to resolve that fight phase.

According to this:
*Page 363 – Rare Rules
Add the following:
Attacks That Make Multiple Hit Rolls
Some rules, typically weapon abilities, tell you to roll more than one hit roll for each attack made , e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, make 2 hit rolls instead of 1’. In these cases, each hit roll is treated as a separate attack that is made against the same target. As such, all normal rules that are triggered by attacks, or that apply to attacks (such as re-rolls or modifiers conferred by other rules) apply to each ‘hit roll’. Note that these additional attacks do not themselves result in more hit rolls being made.

The gorkanaut exploding 6s hit rolls, adds a hit roll which is an attack as each hit roll is treated as a seperate attack. each attack adds 3 hit rolls as per the profile.

As per the tankhammer:
This is also written in an FAQ:
If any
additional hits are scored as the result of a particular hit roll,
those additional hits are not considered to have been made with
any hit roll – they simply hit the target and you must continue
the attack sequence for them (i.e. make a wound roll).
This special rule which adds to the same multiple hits rule, states that you actually DO, get the secondary hit. As it says those additional hit rolls are NOT considered to have been made with any hit rolls. So even if you technically roll twice, one for its first 6 which generates an additional hit rolll, and then afterwards for that roll, you've really only rolled once. The rule states that the additional hit roll simply hits (in case you hit with your roll). If we go by this rule the tankhammer gets 2 hit rolls if you get an exploding 6 with Goff.

It literally states here that you MUST continue the attack sequence and that extra hit roll ties to the attack, because you are meant to count it as if you didnt roll the hit roll at all. It just hits, in case your hit roll actually did hit.

Seems that way since each hit roll is treated as a separate attack.
Let me make this clear for you.

The Tankhammer does not score additional hits as the result of a particular hit roll. It gives you another hit roll, not another hit. There is a huge difference. The "you must continue the attack sequence for them" does not apply as you do not have additional hits scored as the result of a particular hit roll.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Spoiler:

Beardedragon wrote:
According to this:
*Page 363 – Rare Rules
Add the following:
Attacks That Make Multiple Hit Rolls
Some rules, typically weapon abilities, tell you to roll more than one hit roll for each attack made , e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, make 2 hit rolls instead of 1’. In these cases, each hit roll is treated as a separate attack that is made against the same target. As such, all normal rules that are triggered by attacks, or that apply to attacks (such as re-rolls or modifiers conferred by other rules) apply to each ‘hit roll’. Note that these additional attacks do not themselves result in more hit rolls being made.

The gorkanaut exploding 6s hit rolls, adds a hit roll which is an attack as each hit roll is treated as a seperate attack. each attack adds 3 hit rolls as per the profile.

Seems that way since each hit roll is treated as a separate attack.

Spoiler:

Beardedragon wrote:
As per the tankhammer:
This is also written in an FAQ:
If any
additional hits are scored as the result of a particular hit roll,
those additional hits are not considered to have been made with
any hit roll – they simply hit the target and you must continue
the attack sequence for them (i.e. make a wound roll).
This special rule which adds to the same multiple hits rule, states that you actually DO, get the secondary hit. As it says those additional hit rolls are NOT considered to have been made with any hit rolls. So even if you technically roll twice, one for its first 6 which generates an additional hit rolll, and then afterwards for that roll, you've really only rolled once. The rule states that the additional hit roll simply hits (in case you hit with your roll). If we go by this rule the tankhammer gets 2 hit rolls if you get an exploding 6 with Goff.

It literally states here that you MUST continue the attack sequence and that extra hit roll ties to the attack, because you are meant to count it as if you didnt roll the hit roll at all. It just hits, in case your hit roll actually did hit.

Let me make this clear for you.

The Tankhammer does not score additional hits as the result of a particular hit roll. It gives you another hit roll, not another hit. There is a huge difference. The "you must continue the attack sequence for them" does not apply as you do not have additional hits scored as the result of a particular hit roll.

you score an additional hit roll because of the exploding 6. unless this is a special rule that simply explains things that gives auto hits on 6s rather than hit rolls? i can read it as either

Beardedragon wrote:
you score an additional hit roll because of the exploding 6. unless this is a special rule that simply explains things that gives auto hits on 6s rather than hit rolls? i can read it as either

Some rules give extra hits, like the Necron Tesla Carbine which says "Each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 2 additional hits."

Which is different than the Goffs rule that gives hit rolls.

Additional hits and additional hit rolls are not the same thing.