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How ironic.

Do the 40k books have their "Points last updated <Month> <Year>" listed in the points section?

AoS does. Hedonites of Slaanesh were listed as "January 2021", meaning the book was supposed to be out by then. It got moved back towards the middle/end of February.

Don't know tbh. Don't really use points in my games.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Someone writing more DG rules for a $60 book to be released just months after the codex is one person less working on getting other factions their 9th edition codexes. Of course it is prioritizing a campaign book over the new codexes. That's by definition what GW is doing here. That is the definition of the word. If they were prioritizing codexes, they would be releasing them, not campaign books.

Stormcast and Nighthaunt have AOS 2.0 books. They're old, but they have them. The very first Broken Realms book they released had updated rules for...wait for it...a faction that doesn't have an AOS 2.0 codex (as well as for Stormcast, incidentally, which pretty much totally undercuts your point).

Which faction would that be?

Daughters of Khaine got their book in February, alongside Hedonites of Slaanesh.
Cities of Sigmar are an AOS2.0 book.
Hedonites, even before their recent update, were an AOS2.0 book.

Idoneth might be the only one you're talking about...and their book is barely 3 months older than the dang Stormcast one! Idoneth was April 2018, Stormcast was June 2018.

I'm glad you got there eventually. The first BR book came out two and a half years after AOS 2.0, when almost every book has a 2.0 battletome, and contained updates for two factions with extremely old books.

The first Charadon book is coming out 9 months after 9th, when only a small handful of factions have their 9th edition codex, and contains updates for a faction that just got a codex released a month or two before, as well as a rules update for a codex that is being released literally at the same time as the book.

This is a great illustration of how the comparison is bogus.

And yet you don't think that because of current events GW is maybe releasing what they have the most of in stock? What if they can release the campaign book because they have it but can't release the Admech or knight updates because they don't have enough? Nobody has all the info but being insulting and combative to people just trying to present other points of view in a discussion is a bit over the top.

When do we stop making excuses for GW? Even before Covid/Brexit people made all sorts of excuses to justify GW doing what GW does.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm glad you got there eventually.

Next time, just say what you mean. I shouldn't have to go sleuthing to figure out wtf you're even ranting about.
This is a text based medium. You don't get to do a wink and a nudge here while pointing at something on a shelf.

The first BR book came out two and a half years after AOS 2.0, when almost every book has a 2.0 battletome, and contained updates for two factions with extremely old books.

But then it also contained updates for a faction that was supposed to release alongside of it(Daughters of Khaine) and teases for the next Battletome after that(Hedonites of Slaanesh).

The first Charadon book is coming out 9 months after 9th, when only a small handful of factions have their 9th edition codex, and contains updates for a faction that just got a codex released a month or two before, as well as a rules update for a codex that is being released literally at the same time as the book.

Yes, and Drukhari was supposed to be out at the start of January while Death Guard was supposed to be out at the start of December.

You do know that they can release supplemental material at the same time as a main release, right? And that this edition came into being with a whole concept of "narrative play" that hadn't really been done at such an integrated level before thanks to Crusade?

But clearly, you know everything so much better than everyone else so you must be aware of all these things!

This is a great illustration of how the comparison is bogus.

This is also a great illustration of how wildly out of touch with reality you seem to be. Brexit's a Big Deal when it comes to shipping & logistics. There's a very real shortage of shipping containers worldwide, and shipping/receiving facilities are backed up, significantly.

Then that doesn't even get into COVID and closures of shops affecting how/when GW releases things.

Wayniac wrote:
When do we stop making excuses for GW? Even before Covid/Brexit people made all sorts of excuses to justify GW doing what GW does.

It's not making excuses it's just looking at things from a different point of view.
I get this is the Internet and hyperbole is the language of choice but come on GW isn't strapping you to a chair and forcing you to agree with them upon pain of watching the Ultramarines movie.

Wayniac wrote:
When do we stop making excuses for GW? Even before Covid/Brexit people made all sorts of excuses to justify GW doing what GW does.

Probably about the same time people stop complaining about every little thing as though it's a personal slight against them?

Yeah, no other game company out there, absolutely nobody, is selling 95 page day 1 dlc books for 60$.

I just recently bought a book for Battlegroup, which is also a british company I believe, and basically its got all the rules that GW typically puts in codexes for all the sides of a given conflict. So it's got rules for Polish, German, French, and British forces in the early blitzkrieg period of WW2, multiple different narrative campaign missions, and tons and tons and tons and tons of historical background, photographs, schematics and pictures of miniatures. It's hardback, all color, 176 pages, shrinkwrapped with a couple of sheets of cardboard with all the tokens you need to play the game. 25 bucks. Effectively 4 codexes with campaign content, everything you need besides the core rulebook (also 25 bucks).

 Gert wrote:
And yet you don't think that because of current events GW is maybe releasing what they have the most of in stock? What if they can release the campaign book because they have it but can't release the Admech or knight updates because they don't have enough? Nobody has all the info but being insulting and combative to people just trying to present other points of view in a discussion is a bit over the top.

What does this even mean? Why do you think they have more "in stock" of a campaign book than of codexes? How could that possibly be for any reason besides that they prioritized production of the campaign book?

I'm not being insulting, I just honestly don't understand the argument you're making. Covid explains delays in the release schedule; it doesn't explain why they decided to release a campaign book at this stage in the release cycle. It's possible GW intended this book to come out at a time when a couple more codexes were out, but no more than that. They very much planned this campaign series to start before the majority of books had their updated codexes.

Also, the reason we don't know any of this is because GW doesn't tell us; they are the ones who has whatever info exists, so it's on them if they don't explain.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, no other game company out there, absolutely nobody, is selling 95 page day 1 dlc books for 60$.

Funny how a game that bills itself as "free rules" has a MSRP of $77.99 and only becomes palatable at $60, eh?

And if you're going to consider a campaign pack as "day 1 dlc book", I will 100% consider that link as "day 1 dlc book" since it gates all the lore into a part of it. That model(which is a "limited exclusive", mind you, tied to a 'while supplies last' element) included with it as an "exclusive" as well would have been a $10 model not even two years ago...but now is something like a $15 MSRP.

Corvus Belli's prices for books, considering the quality of editing/proofreading, is abysmally bad.

I just recently bought a book for Battlegroup, which is also a british company I believe, and basically its got all the rules that GW typically puts in codexes for all the sides of a given conflict. So it's got rules for Polish, German, French, and British forces in the early blitzkrieg period of WW2, multiple different narrative campaign missions, and tons and tons and tons and tons of historical background, photographs, schematics and pictures of miniatures. It's hardback, all color, 176 pages, shrinkwrapped with a couple of sheets of cardboard with all the tokens you need to play the game. 25 bucks. Effectively 4 codexes with campaign content, everything you need besides the core rulebook (also 25 bucks).

And that's why it's cheap. How many different companies out there are producing material like that? How much do you think they paid for that "historical background"? The photographs or schematics?

I get that GW's not cheap--and I will not pretend that it is. But they don't just get to copy/paste stuff from Wikipedia or image searches in the public domain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
And yet you don't think that because of current events GW is maybe releasing what they have the most of in stock? What if they can release the campaign book because they have it but can't release the Admech or knight updates because they don't have enough? Nobody has all the info but being insulting and combative to people just trying to present other points of view in a discussion is a bit over the top.

What does this even mean? Why do you think they have more "in stock" of a campaign book than of codexes? How could that possibly be for any reason besides that they prioritized production of the campaign book?

You understand how warehouses and supply chains work, right? You understand that they don't just get the stuff you've preordered made as you've preordered it, right?

There's a reason why "Made to Order" has a wait time.

I'm not being insulting, I just honestly don't understand the argument you're making. Covid explains delays in the release schedule; it doesn't explain why they decided to release a campaign book at this stage in the release cycle. It's possible GW intended this book to come out at a time when a couple more codexes were out, but no more than that. They very much planned this campaign series to start before the majority of books had their updated codexes.

So really, you don't actually care about the release you just want to grouse that it's getting released. Got it.

It's a campaign series. Having it as a way to update some factions in advance of their codex releases or just to add some extra material for gaming groups and the like would have meant that in the Before Times? Groups would have gotten to space out material and add some new content beyond just playing the basic missions.

Indomitus was our 'first look' at the Pariah Nexus. We got a whole book of missions specifically tied to it. Did you complain about that?

Also, the reason we don't know any of this is because GW doesn't tell us; they are the ones who has whatever info exists, so it's on them if they don't explain.

Speak for yourself. I've been aware that this was coming since the "Decadence and Decay" preview show, which literally announced the campaign book alongside the Mission Pack and the Dark Angels+Drukhari books.

Here's how it was going to work: Two dexes per month, 4 factions per campaign book.

So you get 1st wave- four factions introduced in a particular battlezone at a particular point in the Indomitus timeline. As this wave begins, you get a Flashpoint that begins in WD which is keyed to the campaign, but playable by any faction. You hear the Armies of Renown mentioned in these flashpoints, but the rules content is designed for everyone.

Part way through the cycle, when the last two factions drop, you get a Campaign book with content for all styles of play, including details on how to represent the Armies of Renown on the table, should you be interested in doing so. You also get a Crusade Mission Pack. Both of these books are designed to work together, and to combine with and reinforce the material from the Flashpoint in the White Dwarf.

Then the following month, you get a new Flashpoint, which introduces the next four dexes to be released in the ongoing saga, then they drop, you get the next campaign book and mission pack.

Now maybe the whole cycle is 3 months, not two.

That means the plan was 16-24 dexes + 4 - 6 campaign books and mission packs per year. Every faction gets a release and campaign support every year- or every 18 months at the outside.

So people pick their level of participation. Some will buy the BRB, their dex and that's it. (well, marines need supplements- that's the trade off for their extensive range of options). And they can do that and have fun.

Those who subscribe to White Dwarf, or pick it up to learn about the hobby get to test drive the campaign play via WD. If they like it, they might decide to buy the campaign book. If they're a Crusader, they may choose to buy the Mission Pack instead of or in addition to the campaign book.

And none of the campaign book content, WD content, or Mission Pack content is legal in tournaments to preserve balance and meta. In fact, the additional content is designed in such a way that it is unappealing for tournament play... Specifically because that's not what it's designed to be.

Once all the dexes are out, the campaign ends. The following year (or 18 months), GW doesn't have to worry about dexes, so this is when the big refresh releases start. That's when we'll see CWE and Guard.

Four big refresh releases per year maybe? One with each quarterly Flashpoint/ Campaign Books/ Mission Pack cycle. So four vs. boxes each with an existing faction and refreshed faction which features in that quarter's campaign content.

That doesn't sound so evil to me. It actually sounds like a reasonable way to maintain a release schedule and allow customers to plan their spending accordingly.

It is too bad Covid + Brexit is putting the breaks on the release schedule- by now the four factions of the BoR should already be on the table and the campaign should be wrapping up; we'd be getting ready for the reveal of the next four factions in the second Campaign book.

I'm not a GW basher, but I can't understand or justify having Cult of Strife in The Book of Rust, unless it's material that will be reprinted in the codex.

PenitentJake wrote:
Here's how it was going to work: Two dexes per month, 4 factions per campaign book.

So you get 1st wave- four factions introduced in a particular battlezone at a particular point in the Indomitus timeline. As this wave begins, you get a Flashpoint that begins in WD which is keyed to the campaign, but playable by any faction. You hear the Armies of Renown mentioned in these flashpoints, but the rules content is designed for everyone.

Part way through the cycle, when the last two factions drop, you get a Campaign book with content for all styles of play, including details on how to represent the Armies of Renown on the table, should you be interested in doing so. You also get a Crusade Mission Pack. Both of these books are designed to work together, and to combine with and reinforce the material from the Flashpoint in the White Dwarf.

Then the following month, you get a new Flashpoint, which introduces the next four dexes to be released in the ongoing saga, then they drop, you get the next campaign book and mission pack.

Now maybe the whole cycle is 3 months, not two.

That means the plan was 16-24 dexes + 4 - 6 campaign books and mission packs per year. Every faction gets a release and campaign support every year- or every 18 months at the outside.

So people pick their level of participation. Some will buy the BRB, their dex and that's it. (well, marines need supplements- that's the trade off for their extensive range of options). And they can do that and have fun.

Those who subscribe to White Dwarf, or pick it up to learn about the hobby get to test drive the campaign play via WD. If they like it, they might decide to buy the campaign book. If they're a Crusader, they may choose to buy the Mission Pack instead of or in addition to the campaign book.

And none of the campaign book content, WD content, or Mission Pack content is legal in tournaments to preserve balance and meta. In fact, the additional content is designed in such a way that it is unappealing for tournament play... Specifically because that's not what it's designed to be.

Once all the dexes are out, the campaign ends. The following year (or 18 months), GW doesn't have to worry about dexes, so this is when the big refresh releases start. That's when we'll see CWE and Guard.

Four big refresh releases per year maybe? One with each quarterly Flashpoint/ Campaign Books/ Mission Pack cycle. So four vs. boxes each with an existing faction and refreshed faction which features in that quarter's campaign content.

That doesn't sound so evil to me. It actually sounds like a reasonable way to maintain a release schedule and allow customers to plan their spending accordingly.

It is too bad Covid + Brexit is putting the breaks on the release schedule- by now the four factions of the BoR should already be on the table and the campaign should be wrapping up; we'd be getting ready for the reveal of the next four factions in the second Campaign book.

if GW ever showed that they could execute on 16-24 codexes per year, I'd maybe agree with this (though it's still an old-fashioned business model). But GW, even in their heyday in 8th, didn't get close to the cadence you mention. Not for sustained periods, at least. No offense, but this is just wishful thinking, IMO.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, no other game company out there, absolutely nobody, is selling 95 page day 1 dlc books for 60$.

Well...EA?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:
I'm not a GW basher, but I can't understand or justify having Cult of Strife in The Book of Rust, unless it's material that will be reprinted in the codex.

It's the only thing I don't like. ( Well, I guess the price, too ) RoR army lists that are super specialized and interesting? Awesome. 4 pages to fill out a new codex? No good.

I don't know if the COVID timing messed with out perception, but even if DE came out earlier a 2 or 3 month wait for "full rules" also feels bad.

I hate to say it, but most people shouldn't buy this book unless you're also into the campaign stuff.

The expectations before the delays were 2 codexes/supplements per month.
So yeah, it covers 16-24 codexes per year.
They never did a new edition with 4 indexes before 8th, but it happened.
They never released codexes as fast as in 8th (or anything really, their whole production is uncomparable with what we knew before), but it happened.
The "but you know GW blahblah, it won't ever happen" line is bogus. Just say you don't like it, period. We don't know as facts what they are going to do or not, unless they tell us. And what they told was 2 books/month, which was then delayed due to issues, as they also told us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I hate to say it, but most people shouldn't buy this book unless you're also into the campaign stuff.

It's a campaign book, so of course if you're not interested by campaign stuf, you shouldn't buyt it. I don't know why you hate to say it.
If someone doesn't like a product or isn't interested in it, they shouldn't buy it. It's not because there are rules in it that you absolutely need them.
We don't even know what the stuff about DE is.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Corvus Belli's prices for books, considering the quality of editing/proofreading, is abysmally bad.

ah yes. lets disregard that CB offers a full wiki thats kept up to date whenever updates/FAQs happen and they even offer both a mobile and web version of an army builder which itself has direct links to the wiki and even a functionality to track your orders.

Its much worse than GW for sure /s

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Corvus Belli's prices for books, considering the quality of editing/proofreading, is abysmally bad.

ah yes. lets disregard that CB offers a full wiki thats kept up to date whenever updates/FAQs happen and they even offer both a mobile and web version of an army builder which itself has direct links to the wiki and even a functionality to track your orders.

Its much worse than GW for sure /s

I mean this in the nicest way that I can, but I don't go around thinking to myself "Man, I wish I had a wiki and required constant internet connection to play my tabletop games!".

Additionally, if you want to get technical? CB doesn't offer that. IJW, an individual that does not work for CB(or at least did not last time I bothered to look), used to do it as part of the fact that their shop basically was the de facto Infinity destination in the UK for some time. As far as I know, their shop is still a Big Deal when it comes to UK Infinity events.
ARMY is managed by CB themselves I think...but the Wiki? Ehh.

As a last note, while all those "freebies" are great...people don't get into games just for rules. They do it for lore and art. They gatekeep the hell out of that, warning/suspending people for posting art or lore summaries on their forums from the books. They might have loosened up on it since the Old Days, but it was not pleasant whenever a book would drop and some would get theirs early but were not aware of that "rule".

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


ah yes. lets disregard that CB offers a full wiki thats kept up to date whenever updates/FAQs happen and they even offer both a mobile and web version of an army builder which itself has direct links to the wiki and even a functionality to track your orders.

Its much worse than GW for sure /s

You mean like the FAQ page on the Warhammer Community site? Or the Army Builders for AoS, Warcry, Underworlds, Kill-Team, and 40k also on the Community site? Or the AoS and (the admittedly ) 40k apps? My biggest gripe about 40k rn is that the rules for units come free in boxes like AoS, so why not just make the unit datasheets free and have the codex-specific stuff paid on the app? (Obvs I know it's cos ££££ but still)

 Kanluwen wrote:

I mean this in the nicest way that I can, but I don't go around thinking to myself "Man, I wish I had a wiki and required constant internet connection to play my tabletop games!".

You can download the wiki if you don't want to require internet.
In N3 there was an app that was 1:1 the wiki with the links and everything, i don't know if it was ported to N4 (this wasnt from CB tho).

 Kanluwen wrote:

Additionally, if you want to get technical? CB doesn't offer that. IJW, an individual that does not work for CB(or at least did not last time I bothered to look), used to do it as part of the fact that their shop basically was the de facto Infinity destination in the UK for some time. As far as I know, their shop is still a Big Deal when it comes to UK Infinity events.
ARMY is managed by CB themselves I think...but the Wiki? Ehh.

I'm pretty sure the N4 wiki is made by CB, you might be right about older editions tho.

 Kanluwen wrote:


As a last note, while all those "freebies" are great...people don't get into games just for rules. They do it for lore and art. They gatekeep the hell out of that, warning/suspending people for posting art or lore summaries on their forums from the books. They might have loosened up on it since the Old Days, but it was not pleasant whenever a book would drop and some would get theirs early but were not aware of that "rule".

we're in a thread talking about rules releases for 40k. I think talking about how another company handles its rules is a valid point, even if you perceive that company failed on other aspects.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

You mean like the FAQ page on the Warhammer Community site? Or the Army Builders for AoS, Warcry, Underworlds, Kill-Team, and 40k also on the Community site? Or the AoS and (the admittedly ) 40k apps? My biggest gripe about 40k rn is that the rules for units come free in boxes like AoS, so why not just make the unit datasheets free and have the codex-specific stuff paid on the app? (Obvs I know it's cos ££££ but still)

im not sure if youre being serious or not.

CB offers ALL their rules on a single platform. No need to bounce around multiple websites to get them all.

The specific comment that I addressed though was about perceived value and no other company doing "day one dlc".

I would 100% consider locking all the lore outside of cheap, small blurbs behind books as "day one dlc" if you're touting the game to have everything necessary as free. It's the kind of trash you see from these "freemium" PC/console games, where they bill it as FREE TO PLAY and then start nickel & diming you for every single thing.

Maybe I don't view GW the same way as I know that I'm not actually at a disadvantage by not having these things--or I look at it as a "group purchase" when it comes to campaign material like this?


Sidenote:
All of the things he mentioned are literally right there under the "List Building Tools" tab.
Underworlds is the only one that actually takes you off the Community page, and the apps don't have a website for some reason (likely to avoid datamining/scraping).

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
im not sure if youre being serious or not.

CB offers ALL their rules on a single platform. No need to bounce around multiple websites to get them all.

Warcom is one website? Even without it, the apps both have army builders and tbh work better if you're not using everything all at the same time i.e. use the app for rules and write your list ye' olde' fashioned way. I'm not suggesting GW is superior to this other company but implying that there are not mobile/web services for list building or rules is just false.

 Kanluwen wrote:
TLDR: it's Legendary Legions from LOTR. Which are awesome.

Not from a rules design/mechanics standpoint.

Any rule that requires you to give up something you were never going to take in the first place is a bad rule. This is true now. This was true of Guard Doctrines. It was true of 3.5 Chaos Iron Warriors.

 Gert wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
im not sure if youre being serious or not.

CB offers ALL their rules on a single platform. No need to bounce around multiple websites to get them all.

Warcom is one website? Even without it, the apps both have army builders and tbh work better if you're not using everything all at the same time i.e. use the app for rules and write your list ye' olde' fashioned way. I'm not suggesting GW is superior to this other company but implying that there are not mobile/web services for list building or rules is just false.

You need the BRB, your armies' Codex and Warcom to have all the basic rules for your army. Now you're gonna need Charadon (and whatever other campaign book they come up with) to have all the rules for the concerned armies. In Infinity, you need the army builder + wiki.

The armybuilder for 40k is subscription based, the Infinity one is free.

Those are the differences im trying to highlight.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

You need the BRB, your armies' Codex and Warcom to have all the basic rules for your army. Now you're gonna need Charadon (and whatever other campaign book they come up with) to have all the rules for the concerned armies. In Infinity, you need the army builder + wiki.

The armybuilder for 40k is subscription based, the Infinity one is free.

Those are the differences im trying to highlight.

If you can "just download the wiki", you can also "just download" the FAQs.

There literally is nothing indicating that Charadon is required as of this moment, beyond rabid speculation. You can run Raven Guard, Space Wolves, whatever out of Codex: Space Marines without the supplement--some of them just get more units while the rest get stratagem choices and wargear from the supplements.

Genuine question though:
Why does this always become such a big damned deal with GW but nothing gets mentioned for some other companies? CB had core rules scattered across way more books than GW has, yet they get a free pass because "you can just download them"? Is that what I should see as the takeaway--it's No Big Deal that people have to clog up their devices but heavens forbid you take a book?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
TLDR: it's Legendary Legions from LOTR. Which are awesome.

Not from a rules design/mechanics standpoint.

Any rule that requires you to give up something you were never going to take in the first place is a bad rule. This is true now. This was true of Guard Doctrines. It was true of 3.5 Chaos Iron Warriors.

Eh. The Ad Mech one would have been devastating last edition. Giving up all your screens and being more static isn't going to play well. DG can get away with vehicles, but you're going to be forced into Pox and Harbingers isn't exactly the most popular.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
When do we stop making excuses for GW? Even before Covid/Brexit people made all sorts of excuses to justify GW doing what GW does.

Probably about the same time people stop complaining about every little thing as though it's a personal slight against them?

If GW insists on being the Activision of tabletop games, expect people to react the same. GW business practices are as anti-consumer as possible for a toy soldier company.

PenitentJake wrote:

And none of the campaign book content, WD content, or Mission Pack content is legal in tournaments to preserve balance and meta. In fact, the additional content is designed in such a way that it is unappealing for tournament play... Specifically because that's not what it's designed to be.

Where are you getting that from? Last I checked, they answered that the campaign book stuff is legal for matched play. I suppose it's vaguely possible they are saying it's legal for matched play but not tournament play, though they've never made a distinction like that in the past, so I'd need some actual proof.