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yukishiro1 wrote: I think almost everybody is fine with DG not being able to be effected by CSM powers. It's the random nerf to CSM because of it that rankles. They didn't need to nerf a bad faction in a way inconsistent with how the rest of the game works in order to nerf Mortarion, a model that isn't even in that faction. All they had to do was make CSM powers only work on other CSM, not on DG (and TSons if they really wanted to throw that in too).
Have you paid attention ? Since 3.5 csm dex we aren't supposed to have nice things, neither themathically nor customizability wise.
Jokes aside i think at this Stage they should've just Split Off the snowflakes more aka DG and TS can't be affected instead of this ,but gw gonna gw.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
PenitentJake wrote: Unless there are other interactions in the new book that none of us know about yet which will play off the changes.
For that we would need a book to begin (no 8th dexes don't count) with and also since the newer release gets preference the futureprofing is unnecessary and a blatant nerf... Again... For no reason whatsoever
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/02 21:38:57
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
PenitentJake wrote: Unless there are other interactions in the new book that none of us know about yet which will play off the changes.
You mean the new CSM book? I mean sure...but that's why you would change it when that book is released, not in some random FAQ that comes years after the olf book is released and a year after a new edition hits. The timing doesn't make any sense. This was clearly just a "screw you Mortarion, and we're too lazy to care if it also screws CSM in the process" change.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/02 21:38:14
Arachnofiend wrote: This does not actually prevent you from using psykers on Berserkers; it prevents you from using psykers on World Eaters. If you were running Berserkers in, say, a full Word Bearers list then your Tzeentch sorcerers can cast at those Khorne Berzerkers all they like and all the zerkers can do is grumble about it.
Yep, and meanwhile your Slaanesh Word Bearers Sorceror can't buff your Slaanesh Emperor's Children with Delightful Agonies, because GW didn't like Mortarion being Warptimed by Ahriman. So a dumpster-tier book that contains neither Mortarion nor Ahriman got nerfed the hardest of any faction in this FAQ aside from DE. Great work there, G-dubs!
If you want to mix Slaanesh this, and Khorne that, and a little bit of Tzeentch for good measure, play Black Legion. Mixing marks and Cult Marines willy-nilly was always their thing. The only reason everyone thinks it's a "Chaos Space Marines" thing is because we've had three straight codexes of EVERYBODY'S BLACK LEGION NOW, only broken up by the brief reign of Traitor Legions. If gw keeps up their "armies on the table should look like they do in the fluff" approach for the new CSM codex, expect the same approach as they had in 3.5 and Traitor Legions: no god specific marks for Night Lords, Alpha Legion, or Iron Warriors, Word Bearers get marks, but none of them get Cult Marines. Consider this their first salvo.
I'll be pretty sad if NL lose their option to be marked tbh. In the fluff there is NL warbands that do follow the Chaos gods.
Agreed. Same with Iron Warriors.
And they weren't ever shy about Alpha Legion warbands 'losing their way' (or just plain admitting) that they follow chaos now.
Word Bearers not getting nice things because they're more devoted is just... odd.
Well, I didn't say it's what they should do, just that it's what they've done in the past. Twice. And might do again. And not having a god specific mark doesn't mean you don't follow chaos, it just means you don't follow one God.
Gadzilla666 wrote: TITANIC units now ignore the penalty for moving across Difficult Ground unless it's at least 3 high. Cool. Can't keep a good tank down.
It makes a lot of sense.
They still need to move up, across, and down to move over a barricade, like any other unit. And they cant end their movement on top of a barricade, because of unstable position. A barricade is still scary for TITANIC units.
Right. 8 inch long tank, 1.5 inch barricade, 10 inches of movement. Crap.
Gadzilla666 wrote: TITANIC units now ignore the penalty for moving across Difficult Ground unless it's at least 3 high. Cool. Can't keep a good tank down.
It makes a lot of sense.
They still need to move up, across, and down to move over a barricade, like any other unit. And they cant end their movement on top of a barricade, because of unstable position. A barricade is still scary for TITANIC units.
Right. 8 inch long tank, 1.5 inch barricade, 10 inches of movement. Crap.
Monolith, 6" x 6" model (no idea about the new one), 8"/6"/4" movement, no FLY anymore.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's not just warptime, it's every single psychic power in the tree. From your comment I'm not sure you understand the change that was made. Warptiming Magnus has nothing to do with it, TS can warptime Magnus themselves, with 9" range to boot, so there's no reason you would want to use the inferior 3" range CSM version anyway unless you're using the auto-casting Word Bearer guy.
What this does is mean that said Word Bearer guy can't buff your Emperor's Children, or vice versa, or anything else that uses two different Legions. It makes those lists much less viable when you can't buff across legions. It's a significant nerf to an already dumpster-tier faction for no real reason.
Good. I hate how so many armies are balanced around them souping multiple sub-factions to cheery-pick and exploit the best things from each, it masks real problems with the army by making the Codex seem effective on paper because it is winning games. I had a friend tell me the other day that Tyranids are well-rounded with lots of options, naming 1 recent tourney win as an example to boot. Nevermind that a huge swathe of unit options are only viable in a specific hive fleet and when you need to mix those units to make a functional army they better go in a different detachment or suck. It would be great if there was more nuance applied to the balancing but broadly if an army is successful via exploiting multiple sub-faction benefits the army takes that much longer to get fixed, if at all.
Again, if they want to do that in a new codex, fine - I disagree, the mixing and matching is what makes Chaos cool - but if that's what they want to do when they design a new book, that's up to them. The old codex is built around it, though, and peoples' armies have been built around it too. There is no reason to change it via a FAQ years after the codex's release, a year after a new edition, but before a new codex. Especially when the faction is way underpowered already. If Mortarion was the problem, fix that.
CSM aren't successful. They are an underpowered army currently. There was no reason to nerf a fundamental part of how their codex used to work out of the blue.
It's also not a consistent change across the whole game. Every other faction (except space marines, who already couldn't, but that's because they have different books with different powers) can still cast psychic powers across subfactions - an Ulthwe farseer can still buff Altaioc rangers, a Rusted Cog Patriarch can still buff Four Armed Emperor Acolytes, etc etc. So it's not even like they made a uniform decision. They just got hit with collateral damage from GW trying to nerf Morty.
Hm, you make some good arguments here. Enough to convince me, at least.
yukishiro1 wrote:40k: the game where grots can kool-aid man through walls, but a 100 ton tank can't move over a four-foot-tall chicken-wire fence.
302 tons, actually, according to IA.
waefre_1 wrote:Hey! That chicken wire could get caught in the treads and scratch a road wheel! The Tech-Priests would have a fit!
What Tech-Priest? The one we nailed to the side of the tank?
Blndmage wrote:Monolith, 6" x 6" model (no idea about the new one), 8"/6"/4" movement, no FLY anymore.
I feel your pain.
So, levity aside, with the change to the "fights first/last rules" if something has ability that forces its opponent to fight last, and an ability that lets it fight a second time, and it gets charged, the order goes: unit that got charged - unit that charged - unit that got charged again. Is that right? Or am reading this wrong?
Correct, in that case you just resolve it as if nobody had any fights first or fights last at all, so the player whose turn it isn't goes first, then you alternate. I mean, unless the fights twice ability in question is one of the "immediately fight again" abilities, then it would, well, immediately do it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/02 23:44:22
yukishiro1 wrote: Correct, in that case you just resolve it as if nobody had any fights first or fights last at all, so the player whose turn it isn't goes first, then you alternate. I mean, unless the fights twice ability in question is one of the "immediately fight again" abilities, then it would, well, immediately do it.
I guess that mean Revolting Stench Vats for the flamer guy is still an auto take then, since it takes away the advantages of having charged from enemies. But nice to see them addressing always fight last abilities, they felt a bit too powerful despite their small range.
Yeah it seems like GW forgot about that one when they were writing the whole "it doesn't matter how many sources of fights last or first you have, they all cancel one another out no matter what." I honestly think it probably was intended to fall under that statement, but RAW it doesn't, so he goes back to being the super fights last that nobody else gets.
Xenomancers wrote: You aren't concerned about egregious things because you think they are typos?
It wasn't long ago that squigbuggies were 'really good'. I share concerns for the powerlevel of admech, but not the sentiment. GW made good choices with Boyz, DE, and several other things. They can do so again.
I actually never knew that souping was a fundamental design philosophy for CSM because I painted all of mine one specific color and so I kept trying to design lists which were mono legion ... No wonder I never suceeded in ever doing well with them... sigh. I am having much better success with Mono DG right now.
I think its for the better, probably. CSM 9th ed codex will be designed without some of these clutch soup mechanics in play and it can stand on its own.
I find it odd CSM is considered king of soup when imperium probably has the biggest range of soup options because there are so many imperium factions. AM is weak in melee? Soup in Custodes and now your army is both shooty and has some of the toughness infantry units in the game. Army weak in shooting? Soup in AM and now you have guns for days. No psyker? Soup in an inquisitor. Want to assasins/sniper? Soup in Assassins.
Main Rulebook FAQ, page 8 wrote:
Rules That Count As Remaining Stationary Some rules allow a unit to count as having Remained Stationary, or count as if it had not moved, even if that unit has moved during its Movement phase. The following rules apply to these type of rules:
1. Such rules, if they apply in the Shooting phase, mean that a unit is eligible to shoot even if it has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn.
Blood of Baal FAQ wrote:‘Use this Stratagem at the start of your Shooting phase. Select one Exocrine unit from your army that has not Advanced during this turn; until the end of that phase, that unit is treated as having Remained Stationary.’
WTF? Here's the general rule on how this affects units that have Advanced or Fallen Back, but Tyranids, you get a slightly different rule that forbids you from the former, but not the latter. This goes doubly because in the previous version of the FAQ they gave the literal opposite ruling.
I mean... who writes these fething things?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/03 01:25:13
A nonsensical limit and is the exact kind of sudden ruling that drives me mad.
"Here's how the rule works for everyone." "Here's also how the rule doesn't work for this one specific model even though we just told you how the rule works for everyone and told you the opposite of this last time!"
Warhammer 40,000 - "The best and most polished ruleset we've ever made!"
Bunch'a witches.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/03 01:31:59
I dunno I think they should've handled liquifiers a little different rather than just make em not work with DT. I used to use em with DT pre 9th codex so the fact them being busted forced all power gamers to ruin them completely was really BS. Ofc when they became busted I preferred the raiders with splinter racks and plenty of dark lances route and that's mostly untouched for now. I've also been doing void ravens with dark scythes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/03 01:41:50
Eldenfirefly wrote: I actually never knew that souping was a fundamental design philosophy for CSM because I painted all of mine one specific color and so I kept trying to design lists which were mono legion ... No wonder I never suceeded in ever doing well with them... sigh. I am having much better success with Mono DG right now.
I think its for the better, probably. CSM 9th ed codex will be designed without some of these clutch soup mechanics in play and it can stand on its own.
I find it odd CSM is considered king of soup when imperium probably has the biggest range of soup options because there are so many imperium factions. AM is weak in melee? Soup in Custodes and now your army is both shooty and has some of the toughness infantry units in the game. Army weak in shooting? Soup in AM and now you have guns for days. No psyker? Soup in an inquisitor. Want to assasins/sniper? Soup in Assassins.
It is, but soup as in CSM + Daemons + R&H/Lost and The Damned/whatever there going to call the mortal forces of Chaos next time they give them rules. Not "Legion Soup". That's a product of gw using strategems to "fix" units, and splitting it 6 ways in Faith and Fury. So the best Sorcerers and daemonic units are Word Bearers, the best jump infantry are Night Lords, the best vehicles are Iron Warriors, etc. It obviously wasn't how the 8th edition CSM codex was designed. They didn't assume players would take some Word Bearers to reroll Morale tests, and some Night Lords to be SCARY. It shows how busted our current rules are if people have to take multiple detachments of multiple Legions just to compete, and at a minimal level at that. I don't like it. But Yukishiro1 is right, they shouldn't have kicked one of the few things left propping the faction up without replacing it with something.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Any clarification you could give on the Exocrine nerf? I assume it's something from the BRBFAQ.
Ehhhhhh..... it's not really a nerf.
Previously the ruling on the Exocrine's stratagem from Psychic Awakening was that it could Advance and shoot as if stationary, but couldn't Fall Back and shoot using the same strat. The new wording on "counts as being stationary" definitely allows it to shoot after falling back by using this strat though, but they have modified the strat so that it doesn't work on an Exocrine that advanced. So, it's a sideways change for it. Honestly, I think it's a buff myself.
You can no longer use the strat out of strategic reserves, which was one of the main ways to use the exocrine.
60PL 
12PL 
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
