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Nope, 1 guy has a heavy flamer and Lightning claw, 1 guy has a Combi-bolter and a chain fist and the other 3 have Combi-bolters and lightning claws. All legal per the current CSM Codex. And all the weapons are straight out of the box.

It is still utterly hilarious to me that GW was just too lazy to give CSMs access to the heresy era stuff they came out with in plastic. Just phenomenal.

I like the box only options, makes it easier to build an army out for new players. GW should really be focusing on reducing the barrier to entry as more people buying/building/painting/playing is great for everyone.

Now as to making units invalid just use them and pay points for it, if anyone doesn't want you to...don't play them, you're better off.

I don't really care and have plenty of "illegal" loadouts, just due to my modeling preferences.

That is up to you. Many prefer a wysiwyg model mentality. Myself included.

As for barrier to entry, I don’t get it. These new monopose mostly mono build minis are finicky and some every bit as difficult to build as imperial guard kits with separate heads and legs and arms and torsos... some of the new sisters models were pretty tough to assemble. I don’t see this making anything easier... and certainly not cheaper, which is how I would usually think abou barriers to entry

The cut torsos and legs make it a bit harder to recast though. It is funny because it makes people play with either upscaled old stuff or cast 3ed party stuff, instead of just recasting plastic GW models.

 Jidmah wrote:
My guess is that their new playtesters were giving feedback about needing more <special weapon> models to test properly, and GW finally realized that even normal people would actually go out of their way to buy three or four boxes (or worse, third party bits) to build those combinations.

What do they gain from this? Less variations to test, less knowledge required to start the game, less people leaving from being frustrated over building their first units in a bad/illegal way.

What do they lose? Nothing. Let's be honest, no matter how pissed everyone is about these dumb, dumb changes, none of use will spend vastly more or less money of 40k because of this.

From GW's perspective it's an all upside change, even if you don't imply malice.

They did lose my money though. I'm not buying from them or ripping apart all my guys for this stupid policy. If I had to get them I'd do such third party anyways now or buy second hand knowing just how much they could screw over my army set ups all over again. What happens if they change this idea next edtion and MSU becomes coin of the realm with multiple like specials ? Everyone who bent over backwards to comply to this or didn't need to do it and was new now is left going. " How do I get the extra weapons ? " Then sitting on extra bodies.

Then where does it end ? Will CSM terminators suffer such a fate ? How about scions ? Mixed weapons on them would suck. Will guard squads lose their heavy weapon choice ? It doesn't come in the box !! You know how many heavy weapon teams I've got that would be worthless unless they make them troop squads on their own again ? Lots and it would suck and those options have been legal for about 2 decades now.

What did this gain them from me ? Anger, surprising I know if you read all before this.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My guess is that their new playtesters were giving feedback about needing more <special weapon> models to test properly, and GW finally realized that even normal people would actually go out of their way to buy three or four boxes (or worse, third party bits) to build those combinations.

What do they gain from this? Less variations to test, less knowledge required to start the game, less people leaving from being frustrated over building their first units in a bad/illegal way.

What do they lose? Nothing. Let's be honest, no matter how pissed everyone is about these dumb, dumb changes, none of use will spend vastly more or less money of 40k because of this.

From GW's perspective it's an all upside change, even if you don't imply malice.

They did lose my money though. I'm not buying from them or ripping apart all my guys for this stupid policy. If I had to get them I'd do such third party anyways now or buy second hand knowing just how much they could screw over my army set ups all over again. What happens if they change this idea next edtion and MSU becomes coin of the realm with multiple like specials ? Everyone who bent over backwards to comply to this or didn't need to do it and was new now is left going. " How do I get the extra weapons ? " Then sitting on extra bodies.

Then where does it end ? Will CSM terminators suffer such a fate ? How about scions ? Mixed weapons on them would suck. Will guard squads lose their heavy weapon choice ? It doesn't come in the box !! You know how many heavy weapon teams I've got that would be worthless unless they make them troop squads on their own again ? Lots and it would suck and those options have been legal for about 2 decades now.

What did this gain them from me ? Anger, surprising I know if you read all before this.

The thing is, GW is a large company and not your FLGS who knows and cares about you in specific. The people who will stop spending money or even quit because of these changes are very, very few. The vast majority will still buy codices and jump onto new releases when the get rolled out, so their losses are effectively none.
Also, since 40k is massively growing right now, a few angered veterans to who this was the last straw probably won't even be noticeable in their numbers. Just look at how many people in this forum spend days and days writing about how passionately they hate all parts of 9th edition, while still posting their newest additions to their collection on other parts of the forum.

Unless one of those changes causes a massive backlash on social media like some of the ork changes did (axed KFF mek and warboss, mek workshop FAQ), there is absolutely zero downside for GW's profits to keep cutting options down to what's in the box. It's also worth noting that many players are fine with these changes since it often hits top loadouts from previous tournament metas, and everyone hates tournament players, right? It's not surprising that everyone complains about plague marines and blightlords, but no one even noticed that the death guard daemon prince was hit with the same change - except for stupid me who built a full metal sword/spitter/wings prince who is illegal now after playing it five times.

This is what the cancer called capitalism looks like up close. The only value of anything is the amount of money it makes. If something doesn't make money but requires money to maintain, it gets taken out in the back and shot.

 the_scotsman wrote:
It is still utterly hilarious to me that GW was just too lazy to give CSMs access to the heresy era stuff they came out with in plastic. Just phenomenal.

Heh, just wait for them to give loyalists rules in their next codex for that plastic Spartan that was leaked for HH, along with anything else from HH that they make in plastic, while the Legions get.....a new daemon engine, based on a mutated muskrat.

I have always wondered why Loyalists get easier access to HH models than Chaos does.

As for the "only what's in the kit" method of building squads I think GW is happy to do anything they can to steer people away from 3rd party bits or replacements.

From a player perspective, rules that only allow for what's in the box help get around that sour grapes feeling when a new player wanted to have 3 flamers in their infantry blob but the box only came with one. When that same player is told "oh just buy 3 more boxes" it's an easy way to lose a lifelong customer to a crappy business practice.

So instead of just including more special weapons, they modify the rules to effectively pinch pennies.

Also I've never seen the Plague Marines datasheet before. That looks truly horrid.

It's interesting to me because it feels like over time GW becomes more and more like Privateer Press. Ongoing storylines focused on named characters, units with limited customizability, build it one way only monopose models.

Those were all the things I disliked about PP games, what I liked were the fun, tight rules and simultaneous update schedule that made sure no faction was ever neglected. So to me, GW has the bad aspects of both now.

Though what's really crazy is they only do this for certain factions, not consistently.

I know exactly what you mean, looking over the fence at Age of Sigmar where factions don't get neglected and instead thrive it's often a surprise that both games are made by the same company.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I know exactly what you mean, looking over the fence at Age of Sigmar where factions don't get neglected and instead thrive it's often a surprise that both games are made by the same company.

Plenty of factions get neglected in AoS. It's just not as obvious to outsiders looking in.

For example, Idoneth Deepkin were one of the last books released before AoS2.0 They never received an updated book while others did.
Cities of Sigmar literally was the result of them "neglecting" factions after the launch. There's a reason it was poorly received by many and it had to do with the ridiculous culling it made of the Elf ranges.

That all said, what really needs to happen is a standardization of layouts for unit upgrades and the like. And if you're going to cut down on a basic unit's ability? Put a damn stratagem in to give access to a "veteran" version that gets to retain the original setup.

Being honest Traitors have access to both cataphracti and tartaros terminator armor, in the form of blightlord, deathsroud and Scarab Occult Terminators.

 Galas wrote:
Being honest Traitors have access to both cataphracti and tartaros terminator armor, in the form of blightlord, deathsroud and Scarab Occult Terminators.

That's two Legions. I suppose the other seven just threw theirs away did they?

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Also I've never seen the Plague Marines datasheet before. That looks truly horrid.

Essentially it's a super-complicated way of saying "Each marine can have one combination of weapons from the <Plague Marine equipment list>. If the unit has 9 or less models no option can be picked more than once, if the unit has 10 models, no option can be picked more than twice. Up to one/two marines can have a plague knive and either a plasma gun or a melta." Then add little numbers for icon and sigil to say that they can be picked only once.

Whatever the real reason they have for doing it, the uneven way it has been implemented makes little sense. Maybe the execs shared their vision with the writers who then have their own interpretation or decide on their own how to (unevenly) apply it. That might also explain why SoB and Marines have a pile of Core units and other armies have 2.

IMO the Plague Marines are still the most egregious so far. They put out 20 or so PMs that were not in that box between 8E and the 9E release. I think its likely more poeple have the 8E starter PMs than the seperate unit box. But those minis are no longer being sold by GW so they may as well not have existed.

A lot of the reasons posted so far seem plausible enough but still don't quite fit. I was thinking that maybe they were trying to bridge the gap between points and power level, but that doesn't entirely fit either. I wish I knew what they were trying to accomplish.

 Jidmah wrote:


What do they lose? Nothing. Let's be honest, no matter how pissed everyone is about these dumb, dumb changes, none of use will spend vastly more or less money of 40k because of this.

From GW's perspective it's an all upside change, even if you don't imply malice.

I think you're on to something here. GW has definitely been producing a lot of stuff for the "consoomer" who ties their identity to a brand and will buy anything. The Funco Pops, childrens books complete with Cal Art, cartoons, licensed apparel, action figures and the like are aimed right at them.

I'm not sure about that "None of us" part though. I can tell you I've bought 2 whole kits since the fall and I'm in no rush to buy more. I have been buying some of the books but my spending is down 80% easy. I'd like to find a way to make my Tau have some chance in a game, and have been thinking of maxing out my Missilesides with 6 more, even though the Tau list is currently a complete mess with drones the price of Primaris Space Marines. I'm just not going to buy those 6 kits because I have no idea what they will do. If anything, I'll print up 6 "Alien Communist Rocket Troopers" or more likely, just wait and see.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Being honest Traitors have access to both cataphracti and tartaros terminator armor, in the form of blightlord, deathsroud and Scarab Occult Terminators.

That's two Legions. I suppose the other seven just threw theirs away did they?

Isn't that what they did at the end of the Night Lords trilogy? Hauled some terminator armor out of storage, killed some folks, then tossed it along the way?

Voss wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Being honest Traitors have access to both cataphracti and tartaros terminator armor, in the form of blightlord, deathsroud and Scarab Occult Terminators.

That's two Legions. I suppose the other seven just threw theirs away did they?

Isn't that what they did at the end of the Night Lords trilogy? Hauled some terminator armor out of storage, killed some folks, then tossed it along the way?

That armor was more modern terminator armor they stripped from some dead loyalists (Salamanders IIRC) that they found on a space hulk.

In that case the 'can't do maintenance' argument kinda works, where would they find spare parts if they never used that model of armor before?

 ScarletRose wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Being honest Traitors have access to both cataphracti and tartaros terminator armor, in the form of blightlord, deathsroud and Scarab Occult Terminators.

That's two Legions. I suppose the other seven just threw theirs away did they?

Isn't that what they did at the end of the Night Lords trilogy? Hauled some terminator armor out of storage, killed some folks, then tossed it along the way?

That armor was more modern terminator armor they stripped from some dead loyalists (Salamanders IIRC) that they found on a space hulk.

In that case the 'can't do maintenance' argument kinda works, where would they find spare parts if they never used that model of armor before?

No it doesn't. Those suits were used in what was a "final stand". At that point, Talos had conceded that 10th Company was going to lose, and was only interested in doing as much damage to the Eldar as possible. They had already sacrificed their only ship just to get planetside for the fight. They had no intention on using those suits again, as they planned to die, but take as many Eldar with them as possible. In contrast, the suits of the Atrementar, who were not involved in the final stand as they were some of the warbands forces designated to survive by escaping (along with the warband's neophyte Astartes, Dark Mechanicus contingent, etc) had been maintained up to that point.

Also worth mentioning that the publication date for the book in question was 2012, 5 years before HH the game, and therefore any HH models, existed. So Indomutus pattern terminator armour was all that we had at the time.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Being honest Traitors have access to both cataphracti and tartaros terminator armor, in the form of blightlord, deathsroud and Scarab Occult Terminators.

That's two Legions. I suppose the other seven just threw theirs away did they?

Isn't that what they did at the end of the Night Lords trilogy? Hauled some terminator armor out of storage, killed some folks, then tossed it along the way?

That armor was more modern terminator armor they stripped from some dead loyalists (Salamanders IIRC) that they found on a space hulk.

In that case the 'can't do maintenance' argument kinda works, where would they find spare parts if they never used that model of armor before?

No it doesn't. Those suits were used in what was a "final stand". At that point, Talos had conceded that 10th Company was going to lose, and was only interested in doing as much damage to the Eldar as possible. They had already sacrificed their only ship just to get planetside for the fight. They had no intention on using those suits again, as they planned to die, but take as many Eldar with them as possible. In contrast, the suits of the Atrementar, who were not involved in the final stand as they were some of the warbands forces designated to survive by escaping (along with the warband's neophyte Astartes, Dark Mechanicus contingent, etc) had been maintained up to that point.

So... what you're saying is they used an expendable resource rather than the taking armor they could keep maintaining.

I mean it's great that you want to "ackshuuuually" me but it's drifting away from the point of the thread.

 ScarletRose wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Being honest Traitors have access to both cataphracti and tartaros terminator armor, in the form of blightlord, deathsroud and Scarab Occult Terminators.

That's two Legions. I suppose the other seven just threw theirs away did they?

Isn't that what they did at the end of the Night Lords trilogy? Hauled some terminator armor out of storage, killed some folks, then tossed it along the way?

That armor was more modern terminator armor they stripped from some dead loyalists (Salamanders IIRC) that they found on a space hulk.

In that case the 'can't do maintenance' argument kinda works, where would they find spare parts if they never used that model of armor before?

No it doesn't. Those suits were used in what was a "final stand". At that point, Talos had conceded that 10th Company was going to lose, and was only interested in doing as much damage to the Eldar as possible. They had already sacrificed their only ship just to get planetside for the fight. They had no intention on using those suits again, as they planned to die, but take as many Eldar with them as possible. In contrast, the suits of the Atrementar, who were not involved in the final stand as they were some of the warbands forces designated to survive by escaping (along with the warband's neophyte Astartes, Dark Mechanicus contingent, etc) had been maintained up to that point.

So... what you're saying is they used an expendable resource rather than the taking armor they could keep maintaining.

I mean it's great that you want to "ackshuuuually" me but it's drifting away from the point of the thread.

Yes, and the "expendable resource" was newer armour, not the older armour that the Atrementar was already using. The Legions have always been represented as using older technology.

And don't complain about drifting from the point of the thread when I was responding to a comment that you made that was already drifting from it.

I am not against against unit options matching the kits per se. And it's not just for the new players, it's convenient for anyone starting a new army. I have been into hobby for 20 years and if I were to start, say Dark Eldar army, I would prefer if I didn't have to find any extra bits to arm the units as I like. And I can understand GW point of view, they don't want encourage third party sales. Making old collections illegal does suck though.

The real problem is that GW lacks long time vision and consistency. This would be a non-issue if it had been the same since the beginning and affected all armies similarly. The modelling decisions are sometimes mind-boggling. Why did all original IG regiments lack a single special weapon model? Why do CSM Terminators come with only one pair of default equipment? Do Plague Marines really need D6 different close combat weapon options? Why is the unit entry in codex written for 5 or 10 miniatures when the kit comes with 7?

If they don't want to put all the special or heavy weapons in a box, but also don't want third parties getting the sales to fill the gap, GW could just fill the gap themselves - do more sets like these meltaguns, for example, though in plastic rather than resin.

If you're the market leader, act like it - don't throw your toys out of the pram about someone making a little money around the edges of your product.

Given the nature of the newer model kits, a kit of weapons along doesn't really help with requiring conversion work on the customer's part. That's why newer expansion kits, like the various chapter kits, are built to work along side specific kits. You can't just toss out a bunch of melta rifles and expect players to kit-bash Heavy Intercessors into Eradicators.

 alextroy wrote:
Given the nature of the newer model kits, a kit of weapons along doesn't really help with requiring conversion work on the customer's part. That's why newer expansion kits, like the various chapter kits, are built to work along side specific kits. You can't just toss out a bunch of melta rifles and expect players to kit-bash Heavy Intercessors into Eradicators.

...Why not? GW's perfectly happy to toss an extra sprue in with the Guard and expect people to figure out how to kit-bash Cadians into GSC troopers, or swap weapons between Knight kits, or whatever. Why not carry that concept a few steps further?

because those are old models build in a different way with interchangeable parts in mind

same way as the old Orks were designed to fit the fantasy stuff

GW changed the model design from easy interchangeable parts to more unique builds were bits cannot be used on different models without cutting or Green Stuff

Save for the non ETB primaris. Changing heads, arms or weapons between various intercessors, hellblasters etc seems to be easy. I know people were making extra eliminators out of the 3ETB reavers and a box of regular eliminators that had enough guns to make multiple squads.

 Dysartes wrote:

If you're the market leader, act like it - don't throw your toys out of the pram about someone making a little money around the edges of your product.

This is how a market leader acts.
Car manufacturers patent special designs of nuts and spanners specifically so that no one can repair their vehicles except them (and those that spend big bucks on their tools).

I can easily see why GW wouldn't want to just release a pack of melta guns to fix this solution.
Why would I buy a pack of Space Marine meltaguns that I'd have to cut and convert to fit my Guard squad, and that probably still won't look quite right, when for the same price I can hope on over to Victoria or Anvil or similar and buy a pack of 'fusion guns' specifically designed to be compatible with my Guard squad, thereby requiring no conversion and giving a better end look anyway.
Additionally, got a newbie entering into the hobby, "you're expected to convert your own stuff" is a big hurdle. Nowadays dads building model tanks with their kids is getting a lot rarer, for a lot of new players the idea of building your own tools is a weird concept. The idea that not only do you have to build them yourself, but you need to buy more parts and convert them yourself will seem like a significant barrier.

I think there is a fairly substantial design between "take two [officially] designed compatible kits and kitbash" that GW approves of, and "taking incompatible bits/kits and cutting/converting them to fit" that they don't approve.
Hence Intercessors get options only present in Primaris Upgrade Kits. But nothing beyond that.

 Jidmah wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My guess is that their new playtesters were giving feedback about needing more <special weapon> models to test properly, and GW finally realized that even normal people would actually go out of their way to buy three or four boxes (or worse, third party bits) to build those combinations.

What do they gain from this? Less variations to test, less knowledge required to start the game, less people leaving from being frustrated over building their first units in a bad/illegal way.

What do they lose? Nothing. Let's be honest, no matter how pissed everyone is about these dumb, dumb changes, none of use will spend vastly more or less money of 40k because of this.

From GW's perspective it's an all upside change, even if you don't imply malice.

They did lose my money though. I'm not buying from them or ripping apart all my guys for this stupid policy. If I had to get them I'd do such third party anyways now or buy second hand knowing just how much they could screw over my army set ups all over again. What happens if they change this idea next edtion and MSU becomes coin of the realm with multiple like specials ? Everyone who bent over backwards to comply to this or didn't need to do it and was new now is left going. " How do I get the extra weapons ? " Then sitting on extra bodies.

Then where does it end ? Will CSM terminators suffer such a fate ? How about scions ? Mixed weapons on them would suck. Will guard squads lose their heavy weapon choice ? It doesn't come in the box !! You know how many heavy weapon teams I've got that would be worthless unless they make them troop squads on their own again ? Lots and it would suck and those options have been legal for about 2 decades now.

What did this gain them from me ? Anger, surprising I know if you read all before this.

The thing is, GW is a large company and not your FLGS who knows and cares about you in specific. The people who will stop spending money or even quit because of these changes are very, very few. The vast majority will still buy codices and jump onto new releases when the get rolled out, so their losses are effectively none.
Also, since 40k is massively growing right now, a few angered veterans to who this was the last straw probably won't even be noticeable in their numbers. Just look at how many people in this forum spend days and days writing about how passionately they hate all parts of 9th edition, while still posting their newest additions to their collection on other parts of the forum.

Unless one of those changes causes a massive backlash on social media like some of the ork changes did (axed KFF mek and warboss, mek workshop FAQ), there is absolutely zero downside for GW's profits to keep cutting options down to what's in the box. It's also worth noting that many players are fine with these changes since it often hits top loadouts from previous tournament metas, and everyone hates tournament players, right? It's not surprising that everyone complains about plague marines and blightlords, but no one even noticed that the death guard daemon prince was hit with the same change - except for stupid me who built a full metal sword/spitter/wings prince who is illegal now after playing it five times.

This is what the cancer called capitalism looks like up close. The only value of anything is the amount of money it makes. If something doesn't make money but requires money to maintain, it gets taken out in the back and shot.

I never said they'd care about me or anyone else i really doubt they care about anything outside profit or care what happpened to any of us outside of lost money if we all vanished. I'm just saying it sucks and that is what it earned from me. I'm fully sure anything any of us say here won't change anything but where is it written you must be able to make the change to speak about it ? It's a simply a forum and give our opinions is what we do here.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I never said they'd care about me or anyone else i really doubt they care about anything outside profit or care what happpened to any of us outside of lost money if we all vanished. I'm just saying it sucks and that is what it earned from me. I'm fully sure anything any of us say here won't change anything but where is it written you must be able to make the change to speak about it ? It's a simply a forum and give our opinions is what we do here.

I didn't mean to shut your opinion down. I just wanted to explain that the few disgruntled veterans who buy less product very much are perceived as "lose nothing" from GW.

I know because in my company sometimes beloved software features get shut down and despite the outrange among the most dedicated fans, the business is "in the right" from their perspective. They weight the money they are investing in that feature against the users they gain from having the feature and against the users they expect to lose when they shut it down.

The same thing just happened here. Limiting rules to what's in the box saves them effort and increases accessibility (and now players make them the most money after whales), keeping those options allows them to a few occasional boxes to the few people who actually bought four boxes of blightlords to have one of each combi-weapon.
Considering how those people would probably have spend the money on the hobby anyways, and that everyone else was getting bits elsewhere, the reason to actually keep supporting options that are not in the box is pretty much goodwill.