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**the_scotsman**

Xenomancers wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
"5++ save is better than a 3+ save on a 2-wound model" is my favorite xenomeme quote of the day.

*laughs in absolutely everything currently in existence in the competitive meta that proves otherwise*

nobody's spamming high-AP antielite firepower. everybody brings a few hyper-efficient melta/D3+3 platforms to instakill any vehicle dumb enough to get included in a list, and then they spam the ever-loving crap out of AP- to AP-2 attacks to shred anything that can't be blown away by the super insane antitank weapons.

Spamming plasma/dissies/etc has gone completely out of favor with the end of the 100% marine dominance all the time Codex 2.0 era. now that light infantry and medium vehicles exist again in significant enough numbers to tailor against, by weight of points people are skewing their lists into anti-infantry because medium vehicles are near-extinct and the dominant antitank choices are so massively efficient that you just dont need to dedicate much of your list to them. You can hose marines down with enough AP-1 D1 firepower or melee power to get through them, but you can't use D2 weaponry to fight drukhari, admech, or death guard, and if you can't fight those three armies you are gak out of luck.

You must not play against many marines...or necrons...or DE or quins or admech for that matter.

MM
Plasma

Are ap -5-/ ap-3

DL are ap-4
Blasters are ap-4
Blast pistols (quinns as well)

DDA are ap-4 blast
Gauss cannons (annihilations barges and CCB) ap -3
SK and Mephrite guass is ap -3 at half range.

Skitari have plasma too
not to mention super lascannons or neutron lazers

You live in an imagined world where low AP multi damage weapons aren't literally everywhere and while AP-2 is much more common than Ap-3...They both treat a 3+ and a 5++ save the same.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

Out of cover? I would imagine most of the time.

Ap-3 weapons? Depends on opponent I suppose. The key is AP -2 is everywhere though. Cause that gives an equal save and it is clear that the cheaper unit is already better offensively and from a mobility prospective...guess an equal defensive profile isn't really making up for the being better at everything else.

How many flat 2 damage weapons have ap-3? LOTS.

Just to be clear : im not saying he pteraxii are balanced or unbalanced, i've been out of the game for a while and just got back into it.

I think Intercessors being more resilient and pteraxii more mobily/damaging is a fine concept. Theyre glass cannons and now that the "go back into reserve strat" got fixed, they lost their real "tankyness".

Nah - they need to go up to 24 points. Problem solved.

Geelong GT, 3 days ago, a few examples:

First place list, mechanicus:contains 3 Stratoraptors and 3 Ironstrider Ballistarius for a grand total of 12 shots of AP-3 or better firepower in the entire army.

Second place list, also mechanicus, has a bit more - 14 shots of AP-3 in the form of Ironstrider Balistarii, and it does pack some D2 weaponry, but...nope, it's all AP-2 and AP-1 so the 3+ is equal or better to a 5++.

Third place list, there's one unit of Lychguard, one unit of Skorpekhs, and one Doomsday ark in there with AP-3, did not choose to take the dynasty trait that as you said would make their basic troop guns AP-3, that's weird.

4th place - oh gak, Emperor's Children! - has 5 melta guns and 6 entropy cannons for 11 shots where a 5++ outperforms a 3+.

Just for a quick point of easy comparison:

First Place List:

12 shots AP-3 or better

250 shots AP-1 or AP-

Yeah I think a 3+ save might be outperforming a 5++ save JUST A LITTLE BIT.

**VladimirHerzog**

Xenomancers wrote:

You must not play against many marines...or necrons...or DE or quins or admech for that matter.

MM
Plasma

Are ap -5-/ ap-3

DL are ap-4
Blasters are ap-4
Blast pistols (quinns as well)

DDA are ap-4 blast
Gauss cannons (annihilations barges and CCB) ap -3
SK and Mephrite guass is ap -3 at half range.

Skitari have plasma too
not to mention super lascannons or neutron lazers

if someone is chucking MM/DL/Blasters/DDA and most of the low burst, high AP at sterilizors, theyre doing the admech player a favor no?

Xenomancers wrote:

You live in an imagined world where low AP multi damage weapons aren't literally everywhere and while AP-2 is much more common than Ap-3...They both treat a 3+ and a 5++ save the same.

Doesnt the fact that Intercessor come out on top against AP 0-1-2 (and AP3 when in cover) when compared to sterilizors matter?

Xenomancers wrote:

Nah - they need to go up to 24 points. Problem solved.

well sure, at the end of the day, proper pts costs would fix any unit. I just think that you easily overfocus on invulns in general and then cry that your mathematically superior intercessors are too squishy

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:

You must not play against many marines...or necrons...or DE or quins or admech for that matter.

MM
Plasma

Are ap -5-/ ap-3

DL are ap-4
Blasters are ap-4
Blast pistols (quinns as well)

DDA are ap-4 blast
Gauss cannons (annihilations barges and CCB) ap -3
SK and Mephrite guass is ap -3 at half range.

Skitari have plasma too
not to mention super lascannons or neutron lazers

You live in an imagined world where low AP multi damage weapons aren't literally everywhere and while AP-2 is much more common than Ap-3...They both treat a 3+ and a 5++ save the same.

No one is willingly shooting DL at marines or Pteraxii for that matter. Gauss Cannons are so few and far between. DDA is barely seen. AP2 Gauss is 12/15". Blast pistols, sure, but those are rare outside one army. The only other thing that might target marines is MM and only if they don't have anything else to shoot.

**Dysartes**

Xenomancers wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

Out of cover? I would imagine most of the time.

Ap-3 weapons? Depends on opponent I suppose. The key is AP -2 is everywhere though. Cause that gives an equal save and it is clear that the cheaper unit is already better offensively and from a mobility prospective...guess an equal defensive profile isn't really making up for the being better at everything else.

How many flat 2 damage weapons have ap-3? LOTS.

Just to be clear : im not saying he pteraxii are balanced or unbalanced, i've been out of the game for a while and just got back into it.

I think Intercessors being more resilient and pteraxii more mobily/damaging is a fine concept. Theyre glass cannons and now that the "go back into reserve strat" got fixed, they lost their real "tankyness".

Nah - they need to go up to 24 points. Problem solved.

Pteraxii need their points reducing, huh? A surprising take, but good to know.

**Daedalus81**

Dysartes wrote:
Pteraxii need their points reducing, huh? A surprising take, but good to know.

Aren't they 19 at present?

**Xenomancers**

the_scotsman wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
"5++ save is better than a 3+ save on a 2-wound model" is my favorite xenomeme quote of the day.

*laughs in absolutely everything currently in existence in the competitive meta that proves otherwise*

nobody's spamming high-AP antielite firepower. everybody brings a few hyper-efficient melta/D3+3 platforms to instakill any vehicle dumb enough to get included in a list, and then they spam the ever-loving crap out of AP- to AP-2 attacks to shred anything that can't be blown away by the super insane antitank weapons.

Spamming plasma/dissies/etc has gone completely out of favor with the end of the 100% marine dominance all the time Codex 2.0 era. now that light infantry and medium vehicles exist again in significant enough numbers to tailor against, by weight of points people are skewing their lists into anti-infantry because medium vehicles are near-extinct and the dominant antitank choices are so massively efficient that you just dont need to dedicate much of your list to them. You can hose marines down with enough AP-1 D1 firepower or melee power to get through them, but you can't use D2 weaponry to fight drukhari, admech, or death guard, and if you can't fight those three armies you are gak out of luck.

You must not play against many marines...or necrons...or DE or quins or admech for that matter.

MM
Plasma

Are ap -5-/ ap-3

DL are ap-4
Blasters are ap-4
Blast pistols (quinns as well)

DDA are ap-4 blast
Gauss cannons (annihilations barges and CCB) ap -3
SK and Mephrite guass is ap -3 at half range.

Skitari have plasma too
not to mention super lascannons or neutron lazers

You live in an imagined world where low AP multi damage weapons aren't literally everywhere and while AP-2 is much more common than Ap-3...They both treat a 3+ and a 5++ save the same.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

Out of cover? I would imagine most of the time.

Ap-3 weapons? Depends on opponent I suppose. The key is AP -2 is everywhere though. Cause that gives an equal save and it is clear that the cheaper unit is already better offensively and from a mobility prospective...guess an equal defensive profile isn't really making up for the being better at everything else.

How many flat 2 damage weapons have ap-3? LOTS.

Just to be clear : im not saying he pteraxii are balanced or unbalanced, i've been out of the game for a while and just got back into it.

I think Intercessors being more resilient and pteraxii more mobily/damaging is a fine concept. Theyre glass cannons and now that the "go back into reserve strat" got fixed, they lost their real "tankyness".

Nah - they need to go up to 24 points. Problem solved.

Geelong GT, 3 days ago, a few examples:

First place list, mechanicus:contains 3 Stratoraptors and 3 Ironstrider Ballistarius for a grand total of 12 shots of AP-3 or better firepower in the entire army.

Second place list, also mechanicus, has a bit more - 14 shots of AP-3 in the form of Ironstrider Balistarii, and it does pack some D2 weaponry, but...nope, it's all AP-2 and AP-1 so the 3+ is equal or better to a 5++.

Third place list, there's one unit of Lychguard, one unit of Skorpekhs, and one Doomsday ark in there with AP-3, did not choose to take the dynasty trait that as you said would make their basic troop guns AP-3, that's weird.

4th place - oh gak, Emperor's Children! - has 5 melta guns and 6 entropy cannons for 11 shots where a 5++ outperforms a 3+.

Just for a quick point of easy comparison:

First Place List:

12 shots AP-3 or better

250 shots AP-1 or AP-

Yeah I think a 3+ save might be outperforming a 5++ save JUST A LITTLE BIT.

That is the top 4...you have just shown AP-3 is rare when in fact - it is very present in all the list you showed except in the list where EC placed 4th - they literally just spam noise marines (as they should). Not to mention the huge amount of attacks at ap-2 which treat a 3+ just like a 5++.

This is really brilliant stuff man.

**VladimirHerzog**

Xenomancers wrote:

ap-2 which treat a 3+ just like a 5++.

Why do you keep repeating this as if it meant pteraxii were more resilient than intercessors?

**the_scotsman**

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPE these goalposts are going NOWHERE Mr. Xenomeme:

Xenomancers wrote:

Defense is better on a 2 wound model a 5++ save is superior to a 3+ save - LD is an irrelevant statistic

For a 5++ to be SUPERIOR you would need to be seeing MORE firepower at AP-3 and AP-4 than firepower at AP-1 and AP-.

That is categorically, hilariously, MASSIVELY not the case in basically any recent tournament winning list you'd care to pull out. I literally just picked the most recent one and pulled the entirety of the top four, because I knew I could and there was a 0% chance of your utterly ridiculous claim being anywhere near true. Just so happened that the number one list was particularly hilarious for that - 12 shots at AP-3 or better to 250 at AP-1 and 0, but the overall trend is glaringly obvious to anyone who actually knows what current meta lists look like.

And also: sv3+ is better than 5++ vs ap-2 because cover exists. Cant have a 4+ in cover vs ap-2 if you have a 5++

**catbarf**

Xeno, if a top performing list has 12 shots at AP-3 or better and 250 shots at AP-1 or AP-, doesn't it seem overwhelmingly more likely that an infantry unit is going to be hit by AP-1 or AP- (in which case a 3+ is better) than by AP-3 (in which case a 5++ is better)?

**Xenomancers**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Pteraxii need their points reducing, huh? A surprising take, but good to know.

Aren't they 19 at present?

Yep - 19 points. Huge balance.

Lets see...

An assault marine with a jump pack flamer is 23 points a ap0 flamer
It has..-1 attack...loses its chainsword so hits at ap -0.

WOW...THE balance of 19 point models. It is so obvious these guys are undercosted LOL. Heck you can just give them a 3+ save the turn they come down for a -3" move which doesn't matter cause you deep strike.

Know whats funny...it's even got the shock assault rule...

These guys aren't even close to the worst example of undercosted nonsense in the book ether.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

ap-2 which treat a 3+ just like a 5++.

Why do you keep repeating this as if it meant pteraxii were more resilient than intercessors?

They are about as resilient - whilst being twice as mobile - and doing 2x/3x the damage. All for the cost of less.

**VladimirHerzog**

Xenomancers wrote:

They are about as resilient - whilst being twice as mobile - and doing 2x/3x the damage. All for the cost of less.

except we've shown multiple times that Intercessors are much more resilient to the small-medium arms fire thats gonna be put on them (no, i dont count MM as anti-MEQ weapons)

**Tyel**

I'm all for bashing Xeno when he's gone off the deep end - but Pteraxii seem obviously undercosted to me. This debate on a 3+ versus a 5++ would make more sense if Pteraxii were Daemons or Harlequins. But they are not. They have a 4+ base, which can be improved from time to time. All in all the unit has great movement, great shooting, inexplicably capable assault and perfectly solid defensive stats. Why on earth it should be a mere 19 points is beyond me.

But then I'm not sure they are the main issue with Ad Mech hotness. Its not like people bring 30 and just rolling over the table. The issue is that the whole book just feels overtuned on the back of far too good synergy. Its a case of "I get this, and I get this, and I get some of those as well".

I guess this is what other people felt about DE but I'm on the otherside.

**Dysartes**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Pteraxii need their points reducing, huh? A surprising take, but good to know.

Aren't they 19 at present?

It's Xeno - taking the opposite of his position is more likely to be accurate.

**Xenomancers**

Tyel wrote:
I'm all for bashing Xeno when he's gone off the deep end - but Pteraxii seem obviously undercosted to me. This debate on a 3+ versus a 5++ would make more sense if Pteraxii were Daemons or Harlequins. But they are not. They have a 4+ base, which can be improved from time to time. All in all the unit has great movement, great shooting, inexplicably capable assault and perfectly solid defensive stats. Why on earth it should be a mere 19 points is beyond me.

But then I'm not sure they are the main issue with Ad Mech hotness. Its not like people bring 30 and just rolling over the table. The issue is that the whole book just feels overtuned on the back of far too good synergy. Its a case of "I get this, and I get this, and I get some of those as well".

I guess this is what other people felt about DE but I'm on the otherside.

You're right - these guys aren't even that big of an issue in the book.

And thanks for putting aside bias to agree with what is obviously the truth.

Had a freaking laugh when this Mars player busted out 1 turn of his canticles....This turn I get 2 reroll hits 1 to wound and 1 damage per unit...Like...are you freaking serious? Didn't GW just nerf master of artisans to only be 1 hit? When a hit and a wound was too good? Now they figure and additional hit and damage roll will be balanced? HAHA...Yet...mars isn't even the best...

**catbarf**

Tyel wrote:
I'm all for bashing Xeno when he's gone off the deep end - but Pteraxii seem obviously undercosted to me. This debate on a 3+ versus a 5++ would make more sense if Pteraxii were Daemons or Harlequins. But they are not. They have a 4+ base, which can be improved from time to time. All in all the unit has great movement, great shooting, inexplicably capable assault and perfectly solid defensive stats. Why on earth it should be a mere 19 points is beyond me.

But then I'm not sure they are the main issue with Ad Mech hotness. Its not like people bring 30 and just rolling over the table. The issue is that the whole book just feels overtuned on the back of far too good synergy. Its a case of "I get this, and I get this, and I get some of those as well".

I guess this is what other people felt about DE but I'm on the otherside.

These sorts of derailments do tend to occur when Xeno makes a statement like 'on a 2 wound model a 5++ save is superior to a 3+ save'. Cue a page of pointing out that no, a 3+ save is actually better than a 5++.

And I really don't know about Sterylizors being that nuts. Compare to Scourges with Shredders. Both are T3 and 4+/5++, although the Sterylizors are W2. Both arrive via DS, but Scourges are faster at 14" to 12". Shredders get D6 shots at S6 AP-1 with Blast, phosphor torches get D6 shots at S4 AP-1 auto-hit; point-for-point they do nearly identical damage to Marines without taking Blast or hit modifiers into account. Sterylizors are better at melee, but I don't think to the point where you really want them in melee over shooting, and don't have a good way to get there the turn they DS. Scourges are 17pts in this configuration to Sterylizors at 19pts.

Would simply giving Scourges a second wound and better melee, with an accompanying 2pt price hike and losing 2" of movement, catapult them from merely decent to overpowered? I don't play the army, you tell me. It does sound more like what you're saying with the whole book providing strong synergy to good base profiles.

**Galas**

It should also be assumed in the point cost the fact that Scourges lack any kind of subfaction sinergy and Sterilizors have full access to that stuff. Scourges with Shredders are a pretty good unit. Sterilizors at 19pp are too cheap. 21-22 would be a fairer cost for them.

**Tyel**

catbarf wrote:
Would simply giving Scourges a second wound and better melee, with an accompanying 2pt price hike and losing 2" of movement, catapult them from merely decent to overpowered? I don't play the army, you tell me. It does sound more like what you're saying with the whole book providing strong synergy to good base profiles.

I feel its hard to say overpowered - because I don't believe 3 MSU units of Shredder Scourge would be the thing that decisively won you a game even with these buffs.

But would I pay 2 points a model to theoretically force a 100% increase in 1 damage shooting from my opponent to remove them? Yeah. I'd be trading a bit of cannon for a lot less glass. I think that for that package at say 90 points they would appear aggressively tuned compared to what you get for 90 points in a lot of other books.

Where I feel Ad Mech are is that everything (or at least an army's worth of units) feels aggressively tuned.

So the Pteraxii are a bit cheap. But... so are the basic Skitarii. And Lascannon Ironstriders. And I'd probably throw in the dogs and flyers but fortunately money largely prevents them making it to the table in strength (at least for now).

I think they need to get the equivalent of the raider nerf but I'm not sure there's an equivalent unit. (Skitarii themselves seem a good shout, but I feel making people take fewer troops shouldn't be the aim.)

**ERJAK**

catbarf wrote:
Xeno, if a top performing list has 12 shots at AP-3 or better and 250 shots at AP-1 or AP-, doesn't it seem overwhelmingly more likely that an infantry unit is going to be hit by AP-1 or AP- (in which case a 3+ is better) than by AP-3 (in which case a 5++ is better)?

All this has made me reconsider Valorous Heart for the best overall conviction in SoB.

**vipoid**

catbarf wrote:

These sorts of derailments do tend to occur when Xeno makes a statement like 'on a 2 wound model a 5++ save is superior to a 3+ save'. Cue a page of pointing out that no, a 3+ save is actually better than a 5++.

And I really don't know about Sterylizors being that nuts. Compare to Scourges with Shredders. Both are T3 and 4+/5++, although the Sterylizors are W2. Both arrive via DS, but Scourges are faster at 14" to 12". Shredders get D6 shots at S6 AP-1 with Blast, phosphor torches get D6 shots at S4 AP-1 auto-hit; point-for-point they do nearly identical damage to Marines without taking Blast or hit modifiers into account. Sterylizors are better at melee, but I don't think to the point where you really want them in melee over shooting, and don't have a good way to get there the turn they DS. Scourges are 17pts in this configuration to Sterylizors at 19pts.

Would simply giving Scourges a second wound and better melee, with an accompanying 2pt price hike and losing 2" of movement, catapult them from merely decent to overpowered? I don't play the army, you tell me. It does sound more like what you're saying with the whole book providing strong synergy to good base profiles.

I don't know if it would make Scourges overpowered but if I was offered the opportunity to drop 2" of movement and pay 2pts for:
- +1S
- +2A (+1 base and then another +1 whenever they charge or are charged)
- AP-1 melee weapons on the entire squad
- A S+2 AP-1 melee weapon on the sergeant that gets +2 hits on 6s
- Getting to use army bonuses
I would take that offer in a heartbeat.

**the_scotsman**

Yep, theyre probably around 2ppm undercosted for what they do. I'm not sure why they need +1 attack on the charge, but they should probably be costed such that the skystalkers do more damage from shooting on the drop to GEQ - given t hat they have none of the same melee abilities.

Don't take me dunking on xenomeme to mean I don't think they're somewhat undercosted lol.

**Moorecox**

ERJAK wrote:
catbarf wrote:
Xeno, if a top performing list has 12 shots at AP-3 or better and 250 shots at AP-1 or AP-, doesn't it seem overwhelmingly more likely that an infantry unit is going to be hit by AP-1 or AP- (in which case a 3+ is better) than by AP-3 (in which case a 5++ is better)?

All this has made me reconsider Valorous Heart for the best overall conviction in SoB.

SoB can mix. I’ve been told with no penalty either.

**PenitentJake**

The only penalty is paying the CP for the extra detachment.

Also means you can't do it in a Combat Patrol sized game, where you're only allowed a single detachment.

**H.B.M.C.**

the_scotsman wrote:
Just so happened that the number one list was particularly hilarious for that - 12 shots at AP-3 or better to 250 at AP-1 and 0, but the overall trend is glaringly obvious to anyone who actually knows what current meta lists look like.

Out of interest, what was the list?

**T800Necron**

The FAQ seemed to hit the obvious, but my necrons aren't feeling a whole lot better :(

**the_scotsman**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Just so happened that the number one list was particularly hilarious for that - 12 shots at AP-3 or better to 250 at AP-1 and 0, but the overall trend is glaringly obvious to anyone who actually knows what current meta lists look like.
Out of interest, what was the list?

4 flyers, 2 transports, 4 balistarii, some buffers and a whole mess of skitarii.

**T800Necron**

I'm not spamming warrior blobs, but that radioactive ammo strat is still bad news for me.

**H.B.M.C.**

I was hoping for something a little more specific than that, but ok...

**alextroy**

Geelong Open Top 4 List are here https://www.40kstats.com/geelonggt