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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I mean one of the things that made the final movie so bad was an unwillingness to commit to their neo-nazi/school shooter antagonist because of how popular he turned out to be with young 'uns, instead scrambling to put together an anemic and uninspiring "redemption". Being more committed to a political message would have made for a better story.


By young 'uns, I assume your talking mostly about teen girls, women, the "shipper" community and such. The demographic that gave Twilight billions of dollars.

Kylo Ren certainly wasn't appealing to the male demographic, neither were most of the new movies.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 04:37:45


Old World Prediction: The Empire will have Clockwork Paragon Warsuits 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Goose LeChance wrote:
Gothic, Grimdark, Ironic, Unironic, Horror, Action, whatever.

Anything but Marvel or Disney please.




I'd edit that to add "Anything but Marvel or Disney or Hasbro/WotC please" myself.

I like the old Mad Max/2000 AD tone. Grim and serious but over the top with a healthy dollop of humor. That said I like where it is now. I'm a huge Nurgle fan nd love that a fair amount of the fluff reminds me of old Carcass lyrics.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.


Lol nope, for satire and tone to work. The people targeted need to understand social issues. Star Wars was playing it safe, and too many nerds have little to no understanding of social issues as it is.
40k and GW are the same, you cannot have satire if the target audience don’t understand the issues presented.
It’s why so many players think of the imperium as the good guys, and the horror that is space marines is really just a power fantasy now.
40k wasn’t the best for it back in the day, but you can’t go back if a huge portion of that group don’t even understand it.


I think there's a strong projection on your part here in terms of social awareness when you generalise upon "nerds".
Perhaps your comments regarding a lock of social awareness apply mostly to yourself?


Starwars is impressively Woke from the very first movie, the prequel trilogy is full off it.
And nerds, well I am rather Nerdy but nope. I understand a lot of social issues, it’s why I made that response. For the Grim dark setting and satire that was 40k to work, the target audience. Which I am not actually not in. Needs to understand it.

Your none reply doesn’t really address anything I said.


You believe the satire of 40k doesn't work because you personally make toxic generalised assumptions about the fanbase.

How do you want me to address that other than you REALLY don't understand satire?


Some of the fan base are just that, not all. In fact a lot aren’t, but a very loud portion are.
And you should tell me why I don’t understand satire, or which Satire I don’t understand.


You don't understand satire because you subscribe and insist upon a belief that it only "works" if a target audience "gets it". Basically you're saying that audience is more important aspect of satire than the content of satire itself. Which is a rubbish argument which makes no sense.


If the target audience don’t get it, then it doesn’t matter if it was good. They will just be confused of miss it.
It’s why all these big corps don’t use it, the groups and there main audience are not really understanding of the social issues of the satire itself.
It’s also requires a heavy social commentary which often is at odds with big corporate goals.
The Audience is a huge aspect of importance when discussing why 40k tones down there setting.
It’s also why a lot of the old stuff falls a bit flat now, in some cases it’s out of date, in others it’s people not understanding there subject well enough.
40k is way more serious now, and comes of really edgy. It’s all about that Rule of Cool.


I have been playing 40k for a long long time and the presumption that satire was inserted into 40k with a "target audience" misses the point entirely.
I contend that the satire that was put into the game was never done with an intention to directly speak to an audience. Think of it as a tangential inclusion or feature.

The satire in the lore largely has remained unchanged over the years..The fact that the satire may have hit its threshold or peak does not mean it is not there.

You confuse audience with content.


And how does that relate to 40k now, the satire in 40k hasn’t changed. But it’s ideas and concepts have changed around it. Making a lot of it irrelevant or not even make sense under current ideas of the setting.
The same with parody, a lot of it doesn’t make any sense so the setting had to change to stay fun and interesting to a new audience. GW survives on that new audience, or fantasy would still be rocking now.

I confuse nothing, you make content aimed at an audience. Even if that audience is just people like you that like what you like.
When GW got big, a lot of that had to go. The setting has to reference itself more, and be insular as not everyone has the same reference of point.
Or GW can lean into it and get better writing and push more satire, but based on your very posts. You wouldn’t like that at all.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

I wish these woke people would just go and feth right off to be quite honest and do something productive instead of demanding changes to other peoples ficitonal universes and thereby ruining creative license.

The reason that they demand these moronic changes is because they actually lack the ability to write subversive literary works themselves, which also explains why their woke agenda fall flat every single time.

A woke 40k makes as much sense as a woke conan the barbarian.

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
I wish these woke people would just go and feth right off to be quite honest and do something productive instead of demanding changes to other peoples ficitonal universes and thereby ruining creative license.

The reason that they demand these moronic changes is because they actually lack the ability to write subversive literary works themselves, which also explains why their woke agenda fall flat every single time.

A woke 40k makes as much sense as a woke conan the barbarian.


The reason 40k is like this, is entirely to appeal to people like you. As political and social commentary is very important for satire. Not entirely, but important.

Also, that comment makes it seem like you haven’t read Conan the barbarian. In it’s time and even now it’s actually quite Woke. It’s mostly the art that brings it down, if you take into account a lot of it’s context.

40k would probably be better if it leaned into its social commentary, as that was traditionally where I think it was most interesting in it’s passed.
And where a lot of its competitors draw there strength of setting now, even if they are similar to keep that tone quiet.

(Also this is like 3 points on a bingo card from this post)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 05:19:37


 
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

Wokeness has nothing to with tone, but with themes and messaging.

You can address social and political issues with a dark and gritty tone, or with rainbows and cute animals, or with anything in between.

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
I wish these woke people would just go and feth right off to be quite honest and do something productive instead of demanding changes to other peoples ficitonal universes and thereby ruining creative license.

The reason that they demand these moronic changes is because they actually lack the ability to write subversive literary works themselves, which also explains why their woke agenda fall flat every single time.

A woke 40k makes as much sense as a woke conan the barbarian.


The reason 40k is like this, is entirely to appeal to people like you. As political and social commentary is very important for satire. Not entirely, but important.

Also, that comment makes it seem like you haven’t read Conan the barbarian. In it’s time and even now it’s actually quite Woke. It’s mostly the art that brings it down, if you take into account a lot of it’s context.

40k would probably be better if it leaned into its social commentary, as that was traditionally where I think it was most interesting in it’s passed.
And where a lot of its competitors draw there strength of setting now, even if they are similar to keep that tone quiet.

(Also this is like 3 points on a bingo card from this post)


Here's the bingo.

#1 - The realm and scope of 40'ks social commentary has been established based on the games origin of cold war 80's. You appear to suggest, but do not explicitly say you want an updated social commentary? Not quite sure.

#2 - We obviously have different definitions of the term 'woke'. The woke I refer to and will now offer to define is the trend of insisting fiction be altered from outside influences to suit political and social preferences regardless of the effects. Conan the barbarian by that definition is impossible to be 'woke'

#3. But the setting already has an established commentary which has not been retconned. The commentary's tone is not borne from today's world. You need to flesh out what you are suggesting in a little more detail for me to understand what you mean

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in ca
Hacking Interventor





No conversation that tries to use 'wokeness' as a pejorative is going to go anywhere productive.

The Star Wars movies sucked because they were bad movies; the last especially was condensed movie loaf made from the corpse-starch of the original trilogy. It would have been just as bad if the entire cast had been white dudes as it would have been if they were all transgender ponies, or sandwiches.

Actually, I take that back, sandwiches would have at least been novel.

Now, how the hell did we get here from 40K?

"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

-Tex Talks Battletech on GW 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

 Tyran wrote:
Wokeness has nothing to with tone, but with themes and messaging.

You can address social and political issues with a dark and gritty tone, or with rainbows and cute animals, or with anything in between.



You can but you need to remember its a wargame not 1984. It doesn't need to socially or politically comment as a primary objective, because that's not the point.

The themes and messaging do affect tone thats why people don't like it when you ram wokeness down their throat.

40k's universe already has long running themes and doesn't have a message. If you want messaging go watch captain planet. There's no need to meddle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 05:58:20


Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Les Etats Unis

 GoldenHorde wrote:
Spoiler:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
I wish these woke people would just go and feth right off to be quite honest and do something productive instead of demanding changes to other peoples ficitonal universes and thereby ruining creative license.

The reason that they demand these moronic changes is because they actually lack the ability to write subversive literary works themselves, which also explains why their woke agenda fall flat every single time.

A woke 40k makes as much sense as a woke conan the barbarian.


The reason 40k is like this, is entirely to appeal to people like you. As political and social commentary is very important for satire. Not entirely, but important.

Also, that comment makes it seem like you haven’t read Conan the barbarian. In it’s time and even now it’s actually quite Woke. It’s mostly the art that brings it down, if you take into account a lot of it’s context.

40k would probably be better if it leaned into its social commentary, as that was traditionally where I think it was most interesting in it’s passed.
And where a lot of its competitors draw there strength of setting now, even if they are similar to keep that tone quiet.

(Also this is like 3 points on a bingo card from this post)


Here's the bingo.

#1 - The realm and scope of 40'ks social commentary has been established based on the games origin of cold war 80's. You appear to suggest, but do not explicitly say you want an updated social commentary? Not quite sure.

#2 - We obviously have different definitions of the term 'woke'. The woke I refer to and will now offer to define is the trend of insisting fiction be altered from outside influences to suit political and social preferences regardless of the effects. Conan the barbarian by that definition is impossible to be 'woke'

#3. But the setting already has an established commentary which has not been retconned. The commentary's tone is not borne from today's world. You need to flesh out what you are suggesting in a little more detail for me to understand what you mean



There's been a lot of conversation on the political messages of Star Wars and Warhammer 40k. Do you mind telling me what, in your opinion, they are? In a single sentence, if you will.

For example; "The political message of To Kill a Mockingbird is that you shouldn't morally judge people based off the color of their skin."

I ask because I'm frankly uncertain the new Star Wars movies (with the possible exception of Episode VIII) have any message to them at all. People just assume they have a message because there are a lot of prominent characters who aren't white and/or men.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in ca
Hacking Interventor





Okay, So on topic; Some Bloke said the various lenses allow for a range of tones, and that's part of the brilliance of the setting, so in terms of the overall argument, he's spot on. But the lens I like to see personally?

40K to me can be summed up in a single model.

Spoiler:


Look at this thing. This thing is utterly ridiculous. It has a gun for a mouth, and it has guns for hands, which are also mouths. It is decorated with enough arrows to fill two Ikeas and has the derpiest possible expression that anything with teeth that big could have.

It is physically impossible for me to take a universe in which this thing exists with total straight-faced seriousness. And yet it is still awesome.

It is the kind of over-the-top that combined with pitch-black humor marks 40K to me acting at its finest.

"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

-Tex Talks Battletech on GW 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Les Etats Unis

 CEO Kasen wrote:
Okay, So on topic; Some Bloke said the various lenses allow for a range of tones, and that's part of the brilliance of the setting, so in terms of the overall argument, he's spot on. But the lens I like to see personally?

40K to me can be summed up in a single model.

Spoiler:


Look at this thing. This thing is utterly ridiculous. It has a gun for a mouth, and it has guns for hands, which are also mouths. It is decorated with enough arrows to fill two Ikeas and has the derpiest possible expression that anything with teeth that big could have.

It is physically impossible for me to take a universe in which this thing exists with total straight-faced seriousness. And yet it is still awesome.

It is the kind of over-the-top that combined with pitch-black humor marks 40K to me acting at its finest.


If we're going back to the main topic, I've always been a bigger fan of the plasma rifle as a symbol of 40k. On the one hand, it's a big cool gun that shoots energy blasts which fry people. On the other, it has a chance to malfunction and kill whatever sap happens to be using it, but despite this glaring design flaw, and the fact that other factions have plasma which actually works, the Imperium has decided that the current model is fine out of a combination of an absurdist adherence to tradition and a complete disregard for human life.

Plasma is fun because it's big and dumb, but it's also a darkly comedic look into the hyper-traditionalist mindset of the Imperium. When Chaos uses them, it's the same thing, only the joke is instead that all CSMs are mentally unstable and don't care about accidentally killing themselves if it means getting revenge for a 10,000 year old chip on their shoulder. It's great.


Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Personally i miss the back banner spam of early 40k.

Bring it BACK!

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

The whole game is about killing each other.....and have fun doing it.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 CEO Kasen wrote:
Okay, So on topic; Some Bloke said the various lenses allow for a range of tones, and that's part of the brilliance of the setting, so in terms of the overall argument, he's spot on. But the lens I like to see personally?

40K to me can be summed up in a single model.

Spoiler:


Look at this thing. This thing is utterly ridiculous. It has a gun for a mouth, and it has guns for hands, which are also mouths. It is decorated with enough arrows to fill two Ikeas and has the derpiest possible expression that anything with teeth that big could have.

It is physically impossible for me to take a universe in which this thing exists with total straight-faced seriousness. And yet it is still awesome.

It is the kind of over-the-top that combined with pitch-black humor marks 40K to me acting at its finest.


I don’t think this is particularly unique to 40k.

I don’t even think it’s that ridiculous considering some of history and what we have seen, and now with advances we may see some really crazy stuff.
But I really like the plasma weapon idea of the setting, within the imperium it’s a good weapon. For us looking in, it’s probably bordering on insane.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Les Etats Unis

Apple fox wrote:
 CEO Kasen wrote:
Okay, So on topic; Some Bloke said the various lenses allow for a range of tones, and that's part of the brilliance of the setting, so in terms of the overall argument, he's spot on. But the lens I like to see personally?

40K to me can be summed up in a single model.

Spoiler:


Look at this thing. This thing is utterly ridiculous. It has a gun for a mouth, and it has guns for hands, which are also mouths. It is decorated with enough arrows to fill two Ikeas and has the derpiest possible expression that anything with teeth that big could have.

It is physically impossible for me to take a universe in which this thing exists with total straight-faced seriousness. And yet it is still awesome.

It is the kind of over-the-top that combined with pitch-black humor marks 40K to me acting at its finest.


I don’t think this is particularly unique to 40k.

I don’t even think it’s that ridiculous considering some of history and what we have seen, and now with advances we may see some really crazy stuff.
But I really like the plasma weapon idea of the setting, within the imperium it’s a good weapon. For us looking in, it’s probably bordering on insane.



If you meant to respond to my comment, I agree that plasma isn't too ridiculous given some of the things humans have done historically; that's what gives it some of its satirical edge. There have been plenty of political ideologies throughout earth's history which have seen humans as expendable, and having your protagonists hand their foot soldiers obscene suicide lasers is a great way to parody those ideas.

If you were responding to Kasen, I would legitimately love to see the historical precedent for the giant laser demon with gun mouth. It sounds hilarious.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Who could forget the giant laser demon with gun mouth famously deployed by French demonologists in WWI in an effort to break the never-ending stalemate of trench warfare, only for it to immediately die to machine gun fire. 5++ just isn't what it used to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 06:56:52


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Flipsiders wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 CEO Kasen wrote:
Okay, So on topic; Some Bloke said the various lenses allow for a range of tones, and that's part of the brilliance of the setting, so in terms of the overall argument, he's spot on. But the lens I like to see personally?

40K to me can be summed up in a single model.

Spoiler:


Look at this thing. This thing is utterly ridiculous. It has a gun for a mouth, and it has guns for hands, which are also mouths. It is decorated with enough arrows to fill two Ikeas and has the derpiest possible expression that anything with teeth that big could have.

It is physically impossible for me to take a universe in which this thing exists with total straight-faced seriousness. And yet it is still awesome.

It is the kind of over-the-top that combined with pitch-black humor marks 40K to me acting at its finest.


I don’t think this is particularly unique to 40k.

I don’t even think it’s that ridiculous considering some of history and what we have seen, and now with advances we may see some really crazy stuff.
But I really like the plasma weapon idea of the setting, within the imperium it’s a good weapon. For us looking in, it’s probably bordering on insane.



If you meant to respond to my comment, I agree that plasma isn't too ridiculous given some of the things humans have done historically; that's what gives it some of its satirical edge. There have been plenty of political ideologies throughout earth's history which have seen humans as expendable, and having your protagonists hand their foot soldiers obscene suicide lasers is a great way to parody those ideas.

If you were responding to Kasen, I would legitimately love to see the historical precedent for the giant laser demon with gun mouth. It sounds hilarious.


It was actually supposed to be response to both, I just failed at quoting and half my post was eaten.
If I get the chance I will post some pictures!
It’s hard to collect and post on my iPad :(
Some people got ideas :9

But it’s also with technology advances, with the way computers and Ai move. Just ad demon and yup, that’s a monster!
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

what it should be, I am not sure, sometimes I like that down to earth (relatively its still 40k) gritty feel from novels such as Eisenhorn which do have a kind of "social message" in that even the best intentions and goals can lead to damnation if you become so extreme that you end up becoming the very evil you tried to fight, or the Heresy series where even the "best" of us can be damned as the perceptions of others forces you down the wrong path.

Then you have the warhammer Horror series, an excellent series in my opinion, they are as serious in tone as you can get in this setting.


but I do not always want that, sometimes I want noblebright, a hero actually winning, the odds being beaten and when I do want that kind of thing 40k is not it, I go to Star Trek, Star Wars (up to Ep 7), Terry Pratchett, but not 40k as it is not what it was, it is a serious in tone setting with a small amount of silliness and satire, it used to be big satire with a small amount of serious, those days are gone.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I have to say I have always find funny how many people complain about political messages in videogames and media like thats something new.

Not many works lack some kind of political under-message. At least, most of the ones that are worth a dam.

The only difference is that now, some products have political messages they disagree with.

Spoiler:


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 09:51:19


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

Off-topic posts and posts quoting / referring to said posts have been removed, kindly stay on topic and polite to one another.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 10:32:22


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I tend to see "wokeness" as militant political correctness. Inevitably this does lean on GW's writing team - but I see very little evidence of it.

Its not woke to go "wait, women are a potential market for our product? They are as open to the whole *power fantasy/being a nerd* we've been flogging to men and boys for decades? Clearly we should include some female characters/minis that they can associate with in the same way as the boys." That's just... market research? Capitalism?

The problem with the Star Wars sequels wasn't that it was "woke", its that they went nowhere with the characters. Kylo was the only interesting one - possibly because Driver was the best actor of the bunch, but also because they *tried* to give him something approaching an arc - i.e. identifiable character growth and change. You might not have liked it - but essentially every other character got nothing. If Finn and Poe had both been killed at the end of the first film, its unclear it would have made any meaningful difference to the next two films. This is bad writing.

On tone - the point I was trying to make is the one people made about Judge Dredd. The point is that you, as the intelligent reader, are meant to realise the Imperium is quite a bad place. And I think when we talk about Grimdark we do really mean "how is the Imperium conceived." I don't think for example that Orks can be "Grimdark". They can be written to be more funny or more brutal and menacing - but they don't really send anything up. There isn't really a subtext. "A society of football hooligans who just like to fight would be bad" isn't really a message that resonates.

To go with another example, taking a clip from Starship Troopers (the film not the book, which is quite different).

"Mobile infantry made me the man I am today".
Its ironic. Cynical. We are reminded that the consequences of war are often quite bad for those involved. Its having your legs blown off rather than triumphantly raising your banners over the enemy. It cuts through the romance of war which we are pushing (tongue in cheek) in other scenes.

The other way of shooting that scene would be a very stonefaced - "life is suffering and then you die. Everyone dies here. Isn't this so bleak." But this tends to veer into edgelord stupidity. For instance Grey Knights murdering Sisters of Battle to bathe in their blood isn't "grimdark". I mean its "grim" and its "dark" - but its not in any way "clever". The intelligence I referred to above is gone. There is no subtext, you are not sending something up, you are just being miserable for the sake of it. You quickly start veering into "isn't it cool I can write all these horrible things". But it forgets that the horrible things are not the point in themselves. The world doesn't become more "Grimdark" if the Emperor needs to eat five, ten, or a million psykers a day. Its just adding to the supposed misery of this fictional universe.

The third way - which is probably 8th and 9th edition - is that the guy then stands up (on Cawl made metal legs) and say's "...you're going to be a Space Marine, Space Marines are awesome, lets go smash the bugs, yay, yay". Again very different tone to the scene - there's nothing grimdark about this really - you are just cosplaying it because the world got set up decades ago.

The problem with satire though is that its hard to get right.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




That was a good post Tyel.

A thought occur as well, that 40k was sorta starting to get a lot of its tone before the big advertising change.
In the 90s the way marketing was ramped up and very targeted at boys as the new consumer.

It’s still seen as effecting things today, Lego has a fair bit on how they didn’t just spend a lot of money to get boys to buy there toy.
But spent a lot telling girls it wasn’t a toy for them by mistake.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Tyel wrote:
I tend to see "wokeness" as militant political correctness. Inevitably this does lean on GW's writing team - but I see very little evidence of it.

Its not woke to go "wait, women are a potential market for our product? They are as open to the whole *power fantasy/being a nerd* we've been flogging to men and boys for decades? Clearly we should include some female characters/minis that they can associate with in the same way as the boys." That's just... market research? Capitalism?.



They did that representation in the 90's with SOB. The association = sales formula doesn't work. It needs appeal. Those are two different things

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Actually one issue I see now is GW doing "tokenism" rather than actual true diversity. What do I mean by this? For example, it seems to have almost become formulaic in some of the latest Black Library novel covers. Portray 1 (and only one) woman significant character, 1 (and only one) non-white significant character, with one novel cover combining both seeming quotas into a single non-white female character. However this kind of quota representation is really skin deep and superficial, though it is better than nothing.

As an example, the Gate of Bones novel in the Dawn of Fire series has on the front cover an Asian Custodes (which also has the requisite 1 female significant character), and there is mention once (and only once) of his Asian features. However aside from that, there is nothing at all to make him really different as a character from other Custodes culturally. He's more interested in the common person, sure, but if not for that one mention of his features, I would never have guessed he was Asian background or any different at all from other Custodes (yes, I know there is also the problem when the "default" is assumed to be Caucasian). Yes I know in the far future of 40K, the modern definitions of ethnicities and cultures can be completely obsolete and one could argue the Custodes spend their whole formative periods on Terra so would end up being similar. Why then make a special point of pointing out his Asian features in the first place? I guess it's better than White Scars, which are really a caricature of the Mongols, but that's a low bar to clear.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 13:04:13


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I tend to see "wokeness" as militant political correctness. Inevitably this does lean on GW's writing team - but I see very little evidence of it.

Its not woke to go "wait, women are a potential market for our product? They are as open to the whole *power fantasy/being a nerd* we've been flogging to men and boys for decades? Clearly we should include some female characters/minis that they can associate with in the same way as the boys." That's just... market research? Capitalism?.



They did that representation in the 90's with SOB. The association = sales formula doesn't work. It needs appeal. Those are two different things


SoB was never made to appeal to women or girls. They where highly fetishised at that point and this post would ignore entirely there quite successful reboot as well. It was hardly Representation then.
And I would even say, they are more popular with the men now.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I tend to see "wokeness" as militant political correctness. Inevitably this does lean on GW's writing team - but I see very little evidence of it.

Its not woke to go "wait, women are a potential market for our product? They are as open to the whole *power fantasy/being a nerd* we've been flogging to men and boys for decades? Clearly we should include some female characters/minis that they can associate with in the same way as the boys." That's just... market research? Capitalism?.



They did that representation in the 90's with SOB. The association = sales formula doesn't work. It needs appeal. Those are two different things


SoB was never made to appeal to women or girls. They where highly fetishised at that point and this post would ignore entirely there quite successful reboot as well. It was hardly Representation then.
And I would even say, they are more popular with the men now.




Right...so your theory is they were overly sexualised......right....

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Iracundus wrote:
Actually one issue I see now is GW doing "tokenism" rather than actual true diversity. What do I mean by this? For example, it seems to have almost become formulaic in some of the latest Black Library novel covers. Portray 1 (and only one) woman significant character, 1 (and only one) non-white significant character, with one novel cover combining both seeming quotas into a single non-white female character. However this kind of quota representation is really skin deep and superficial, though it is better than nothing.

As an example, the Gate of Bones novel in the Dawn of Fire series has on the front cover an Asian Custodes (which also has the requisite 1 female significant character), and there is mention once (and only once) of his Asian features. However aside from that, there is nothing at all to make him really different as a character from other Custodes culturally. He's more interested in the common person, sure, but if not for that one mention of his features, I would never have guessed he was Asian background or any different at all from other Custodes (yes, I know there is also the problem when the "default" is assumed to be Caucasian). Yes I know in the far future of 40K, the modern definitions of ethnicities and cultures can be completely obsolete and one could argue the Custodes spend their whole formative periods on Terra so would end up being similar. Why then make a special point of pointing out his Asian features in the first place? I guess it's better than White Scars, which are really a caricature of the Mongols, but that's a low bar to clear.


This is probably a issue with gaming, not just GW. Even if employees consider it importent to do right, executives at the company will be look at the Value.
But it goes both ways, they may only get one space to put the charecter. Since other charecters must be there as well, as to try not to alienate another customer group.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Spoiler:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I tend to see "wokeness" as militant political correctness. Inevitably this does lean on GW's writing team - but I see very little evidence of it.

Its not woke to go "wait, women are a potential market for our product? They are as open to the whole *power fantasy/being a nerd* we've been flogging to men and boys for decades? Clearly we should include some female characters/minis that they can associate with in the same way as the boys." That's just... market research? Capitalism?.



They did that representation in the 90's with SOB. The association = sales formula doesn't work. It needs appeal. Those are two different things


SoB was never made to appeal to women or girls. They where highly fetishised at that point and this post would ignore entirely there quite successful reboot as well. It was hardly Representation then.
And I would even say, they are more popular with the men now.




Right...so your theory is they were overly sexualised......right....


Um... ok, the only way someone could say the sisters are fetishised is if they find the female form a fetishisation in and of itself, it makes total sense why the armour would accentuate the female form due to the decree of "no men under arms" but that is in no way a fetishisation.

agreeing with Horde on this, its a stretch.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Iracundus wrote:
I guess it's better than White Scars, which are really a caricature of the Mongols, but that's a low bar to clear.


You forgot rough riders of Attila too,

and while you think it is a caricature to me its a homage and nod just like many others in 40k.

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
 
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