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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think if the STC could also solve problems like plasma weapons overheating then STC aren’t just about construct and are also about invention.

If that were the case then surely at least one of the remaining STCs would still be able to invent and then that would be the end of it becuase you would say, invent me something that can close tears in reality like the eye of terror. What are the limits to its invention.

Although if it was doing our invention for us then it would make sense that humans have lost the ability to replicate the technology that STCs used to create
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

Iracundus wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

For instance, Plasma weapons. We know with our god like knowledge of the setting that they’re unstable. As do the Ad Mech.

But could an existing STC fragment be put into a complete STC with the question/request of “why does this keep exploding, and can we make them not explode?”


We know that humans have unstable plasma weapons at the higher S setting. Other races like the Tau and Eldar have settled for a lower S and safe guns.

I could easily see an STC posed this question return the answer of "Reduce the power", and humans thinking the STC must be damaged because it's giving the "wrong" answer.


Well, not anymore. Now the humans get stronger plasma weapons which are just as safe and with the option to get even stronger in exchange for some danger.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/17 20:15:06


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wasn’t it the dark angels that found a safe form of plasma gun?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







mrFickle wrote:
I don’t think I like the idea of STCs being AI, too Many opportunities for deus ex to ruin the story. I like it when it was the collection of all of human knowledge and it was lost and can’t be recovered and the religion prevents it from being re learned.

Throwing in AI feels like a setup for more primaris type stuff


Ah... I'm pretty sure the STC system has always been described as at least an "expert system" level system between the user and the information database. Because it was described as "Tell me what your problem is, and what resources you have available, and I'll give you the solution."

(And that's not even getting into ideas like "We're going to give you a bunch of different expert systems to design equipment for you based on what you find, because we don't know what you'll find." And that system gets called the STC system...)

Going from an expert system to a more complex AI for that piece of middle-ware over time isn't that big of a stretch. (Especially if you take AI research's tradition of continually moving the goal posts for what "real AI" is forward over time, combined with the massive technology regression...) Heck, for that matter it's not that big of a stretch to imagine someone sabotaging an STC so that "And the equipment needs to produce radiation as well" gets added to all of the search requirements without telling anyone.

STC with sabotaged expert system producing radiating equipment. STC system with "evil" AI producing radiating equipment. Want to pick your poison?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/18 00:13:58


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






It’s hard to imagine a truly successful STC without some kind of human insight and inspiration.

For instance, it’s an old SciFi trope about new minerals and that being discovered on other planets that simply don’t exist on earth. Such as Unobtanium.

Feed that into an STC with no ability to act outside of human knowledge? And that mineral is functionally useless.

Give it to one capable of self inspiration? Yeah. It’s gonna run experiments on it, discover its properties and how it might interact with other minerals and elements.

Such leaps of logic are considered a very human trait - even if they’re somewhat over egged in the common perception. For instance, the discovery of penicillin.

The folk tale is Alexander Fleming discovered it when he was ill, and only had manky fruit to eat.

Without a leap of logic to link the “I ate X, and it made me feel better” the discovery might’ve been longer in coming. It’s the human “wonder what this button does?” curiosity, our unique drive to better understand the world around us that’s the key there,

Because to continue with Fleming? The discovery came not in the eating and feeling better. It was his seeking to understand the why that lead to penicillin. Similar to the Smallpox vaccination. An initial observation (milk maids never seem to get the Pox) coupled with “I wonder why?” that linked it all together.

As they stand right now, a computer can only work within its parameters. If it’s a maths programme, it knows how to calculate the answer - but can’t say why it’s the answer. Not sure I explained that bit clearly.

But even a mind bogglingly complex programme can’t alter its own programming without some level of actual intelligence. So if one is designing with at least some expectation that it’s going to encounter the unknown, programming it with all the knowledge we have, and the scientific method isn’t going to help. It has to have some capacity for novel approaches, and leaps of logic.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 solkan wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I don’t think I like the idea of STCs being AI, too Many opportunities for deus ex to ruin the story. I like it when it was the collection of all of human knowledge and it was lost and can’t be recovered and the religion prevents it from being re learned.

Throwing in AI feels like a setup for more primaris type stuff


Ah... I'm pretty sure the STC system has always been described as at least an "expert system" level system between the user and the information database. Because it was described as "Tell me what your problem is, and what resources you have available, and I'll give you the solution."

(And that's not even getting into ideas like "We're going to give you a bunch of different expert systems to design equipment for you based on what you find, because we don't know what you'll find." And that system gets called the STC system...)

Going from an expert system to a more complex AI for that piece of middle-ware over time isn't that big of a stretch. (Especially if you take AI research's tradition of continually moving the goal posts for what "real AI" is forward over time, combined with the massive technology regression...) Heck, for that matter it's not that big of a stretch to imagine someone sabotaging an STC so that "And the equipment needs to produce radiation as well" gets added to all of the search requirements without telling anyone.

STC with sabotaged expert system producing radiating equipment. STC system with "evil" AI producing radiating equipment. Want to pick your poison?


If the system is tell me your problem and I’ll reccomend a solution from a list of existing data so the user doesn’t have to sort through it, then ok, we have that already to some extent. But tell me your problem like and I’ll invent a new kind of technology or new device using unique parts, I think that’s too much for my head fluff. Although I agree truly sentient Ai does exist in 40K.

   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






They could provide novel designs, as well as variants on existing templates (indeed, it’s the latter part which explains the ubiquity of the Rhino chassis).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm. Another question I don’t have an answer for?

Could an STC reverse engineer Xenos tech?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/18 16:35:09


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





So why didn’t the STCs invent something to stop the men of iron, or something to make themselves more durable
   
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Lit By the Flames of Prospero






You do know the Men of Iron lost the Cybernetic Revolt and STC machines continue to exist almost 20k years after their creation? Pretty hardy if you ask me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/18 18:14:40


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






mrFickle wrote:
So why didn’t the STCs invent something to stop the men of iron, or something to make themselves more durable


Men of Iron seemingly came from the STC Databases. Or, at least one of them (a progenitor if you will).

Their scarcity is quite possibly linked to the resulting war, with the survivors of mankind John Connering the STCs to prevent a repeat - or indeed to cut off reinforcement for the Men of Iron.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







mrFickle wrote:

If the system is tell me your problem and I’ll reccomend a solution from a list of existing data so the user doesn’t have to sort through it, then ok, we have that already to some extent. But tell me your problem like and I’ll invent a new kind of technology or new device using unique parts, I think that’s too much for my head fluff. Although I agree truly sentient Ai does exist in 40K.



"Tell me your problem and I'll design a new device using unique parts" would be easy. That's just design solutions with parameters--the parts appear to be unique to the end user simply because they can't see the full catalogue, as it were. Or, for that matter, the "unique parts" simply aren't in the previous versions because they weren't part of the necessary solution. For instance, the design not needing a cross brace inside a hull under various conditions.

Likewise, if you want to make up new mineral configurations, that's just more parameters for the materials design system. Steel, aluminum, composites, plant material for that matter... Hell, in certain circumstances, I'm sure you'd be able to get an STC to spit out a Rhino with a wood frame and steam engine.

As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/19 21:41:02


 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

 solkan wrote:

As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.



well, thats kinda the basis of the admech's anti-innovation dogma, isnt it? in the Dark Age of Technology, humans had vast and impressive tech that did pretty much whatever we wanted. Thus, anything we might want to know is has already been discovered, we just need to find it again.


I'd aggree that thier is a lot of what we today would call "AI" in the 40K universe (the machine spirits of the more advanced technology, for example), but its not clear how much true, free thinking AI still exists. it seems like the Age of Stife managed to kill off the majority that existed, and any that did surive are so well hidden they aren't recognisable to humans as AI.

but, that said, it would be suprising if no AI existed at all. I would suggest that something the size of Hive Primus on Necromunda might well still have a functioning AI inside it, plugged into the majority of the core systems, but it just hides form the humans, by appearing to be normal "dumb" computer system, or several seemingly independent systems that are linked by means not clear to the end users. it uses this position of omnipresent obscurity to manipulate the human houses and keep them at form discovering the AI, preserve the Hive that houses the AI and prevent any one house form gaining an ascendency (it this latter aim, it is very much helped by the belligerent nature of humans ). A little rumour here, a leaked password their, a "confidential informant" who never meets his clients, etc,etc.

of coruse, such a ancient AI system would be buried deep in the hive, most likely in the Underhive layers by now. imagine if a hive gang stumbled upon it......

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





xerxeskingofking wrote:
 solkan wrote:

As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.



well, thats kinda the basis of the admech's anti-innovation dogma, isnt it? in the Dark Age of Technology, humans had vast and impressive tech that did pretty much whatever we wanted. Thus, anything we might want to know is has already been discovered, we just need to find it again.


..


So did Cawl invent new stuff or just use re discovered tech for primaris?

One of the thing I find really interesting about the STCs is that clearly the emperor wasn’t able to replace the lost technology despite his apparent genius and magic powers. You’d have thought that much of the technology held in the STCs was created by him
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





mrFickle wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
 solkan wrote:

As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.



well, thats kinda the basis of the admech's anti-innovation dogma, isnt it? in the Dark Age of Technology, humans had vast and impressive tech that did pretty much whatever we wanted. Thus, anything we might want to know is has already been discovered, we just need to find it again.


..


So did Cawl invent new stuff or just use re discovered tech for primaris?

One of the thing I find really interesting about the STCs is that clearly the emperor wasn’t able to replace the lost technology despite his apparent genius and magic powers. You’d have thought that much of the technology held in the STCs was created by him


why would you think that? it's clearer and clearer the more info we have that the emperor WASN'T some sort of "knowes everything tech genius"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





BrianDavion wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
 solkan wrote:

As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.



well, thats kinda the basis of the admech's anti-innovation dogma, isnt it? in the Dark Age of Technology, humans had vast and impressive tech that did pretty much whatever we wanted. Thus, anything we might want to know is has already been discovered, we just need to find it again.


..


So did Cawl invent new stuff or just use re discovered tech for primaris?

One of the thing I find really interesting about the STCs is that clearly the emperor wasn’t able to replace the lost technology despite his apparent genius and magic powers. You’d have thought that much of the technology held in the STCs was created by him


why would you think that? it's clearer and clearer the more info we have that the emperor WASN'T some sort of "knowes everything tech genius"



I’m behind on my emperor fluff, but he must have had super human level genius. He still created the primarchs, astartes, custodes, the unification of terra, the great crusade. Did he setup the ad mech on Mars in some sort of prescient endeavour

Or have GW started to steal bits from the wizard of oz?

   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





mrFickle wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
 solkan wrote:

As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.



well, thats kinda the basis of the admech's anti-innovation dogma, isnt it? in the Dark Age of Technology, humans had vast and impressive tech that did pretty much whatever we wanted. Thus, anything we might want to know is has already been discovered, we just need to find it again.


..


So did Cawl invent new stuff or just use re discovered tech for primaris?

One of the thing I find really interesting about the STCs is that clearly the emperor wasn’t able to replace the lost technology despite his apparent genius and magic powers. You’d have thought that much of the technology held in the STCs was created by him


why would you think that? it's clearer and clearer the more info we have that the emperor WASN'T some sort of "knowes everything tech genius"



I’m behind on my emperor fluff, but he must have had super human level genius. He still created the primarchs, astartes, custodes, the unification of terra, the great crusade. Did he setup the ad mech on Mars in some sort of prescient endeavour

Or have GW started to steal bits from the wizard of oz?



we've learned a bit more about the astartes project, it wasn't the emperor working alone in a secret lab, it was a full blown "manhatten project" style super science project

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





But the emperor masterminded these things and put it all together. I like the idea that the emperor wasn’t omnipotent but he’s still an evil genius.

But I do also like the idea that the STCs were a a technology that got away from everyone and was pumping out gear that was so good people just went along with it anxiously putting their faith in it and then whoops men of iron.

I think the story of the fall of humanity’s golden age is not too different from the fall of the eldar but less indulgent and if it was such a violent end maybe that was the birth of khorne
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






The Emperor is a glorified line manager for the Astartes Project. He only took over after the lead scientist grew a backbone and decided working for Him was a bad thing.
Also the Men of Iron weren't an accident. They were purposefully created to be an army so humanity didn't have to fight. Its Skynet but 40k.
Humanity fell because of the Fall of the Aeldari. The birth of Slaanesh caused the Age of Strife. Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch were around for waaaaaay longer than Slaanesh (only technically because once Slaanesh came into being, it then always existed).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/22 11:55:21


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Well, the brewing of Slaanesh caused the Warp Storms - it was Slaanesh’s actual birth that cleared them.

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Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Close enough

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/22 14:42:27


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





So what came first, the warp storms or the men of iron? The golden age was over then the men of iron destroy the STCs, the age of strife was when humanity was cut of from each other. Was there a gap in between?
   
Made in gb
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Bath

mrFickle wrote:
So what came first, the warp storms or the men of iron? The golden age was over then the men of iron destroy the STCs, the age of strife was when humanity was cut of from each other. Was there a gap in between?


i think the men of iron war was before the warp storms, but the chaos of that war lead into the the start of the Age of Strife, with interstellar civilisation first shattered by the war and the widespread emergence of human psykers (with subsequent threats of demonic possession, etc) , then the warp storms prevented the rebuilding of widespread, stable civilisations until the Fall of the Eldar/Birth of slaneesh dissipated them and allowed the Great Crusade to begin.



Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
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An excellent read, thank you Mad Doc Grotsnik.

As for the timeline, I believe Xerxes is correct, Men of Iron predates the birth of Slaanesh, although I suppose it's possible there were some warp storms brewing while humans were still in conflict with the men of iron. For all we know there could be fragments of old humanity still fighting men or iron outside the sphere of known space.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/22 18:08:21


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






The timeline goes:
Warp Drive invented > Humanity builds an Empire > Humanity gets lazy and makes the Men of Iron > Men of Iron do a T2: Judgement Day and start blowing up stars > Men of Iron are defeated and bans on AI are introduced > Psykers begin to emerge > The Aeldari break reality cos drugs > Age of Strife > Slaanesh is born and the Age of Strife ends.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





So the war with the men of iron could have had a substantial impact on the existence of khorne. I think it’s been stated that it’s humans that spawned khorne and that’s not gonna happen whilst the men of iron are doing your fighting for you.

But isn’t the idea that Men of iron destroyed the STCs as much as possible which would be needed to make more of them?
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






mrFickle wrote:
So the war with the men of iron could have had a substantial impact on the existence of khorne.

No, because Khorne had already existed for thousands of years by that point.

I think it’s been stated that it’s humans that spawned khorne and that’s not gonna happen whilst the men of iron are doing your fighting for you.

Khorne awoke during Terra's Middle Ages but there is nothing to suggest Mankind was responsible. The reference to a Human Age is so we have a rough idea of how old the Chaos Gods are.

But isn’t the idea that Men of iron destroyed the STCs as much as possible which would be needed to make more of them?

In the sense that the Men of Iron tried to eradicate humanity and used weapons that detonated stars or consumed planets with nano-bots, then yes the Men of Iron destroyed STC machines.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






With the Gods and their reciprocal nature with mankind?

Next to Orks, we’re easily the second most populous species. And whilst degrees less than Eldar, we are an emotional species.

So our impact in the Warp is significant, informing and influencing the Gods, just as they inform and influence mankind. It’s kind of a vicious circle.

We disturb the warp in ways unique to our species. The Gods then influence mankind. Rinse and repeat ad Infinitum.

Orks do much the same - but as they universally dedicate themself to Gork & Mork, considering the other Gods weak? Nobody else really gets to feed on their energies - at least not wholesale, as no Orky action is ever dedicated to them.

Sure, Orks enjoy what they do and can become utterly obsessed (Slaanesh says thank you), and love a good war (Khorne says thank you). They revel in anarchy (Tzeentch says thank you) and can turn swathes of real space into decaying hellscapes once they move on (Nurgle says thank you). But those are the merest scraps of energy to be had, compared to what Gork & Mork get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote:
So the war with the men of iron could have had a substantial impact on the existence of khorne. I think it’s been stated that it’s humans that spawned khorne and that’s not gonna happen whilst the men of iron are doing your fighting for you.

But isn’t the idea that Men of iron destroyed the STCs as much as possible which would be needed to make more of them?


Well, it’s hard to say. The STC almost certainly created the first Men of Iron. And it seems many were lost in the resultant war against them.

But who actually destroyed them? Well, we don’t really know. Some could’ve been John Conner’d by humans. Some might’ve been trashed by the Men of Iron to stymie man’s ability to produce weapons to sue against them. Others likely just feel into disrepair in the anarchy that followed. It’s also possible that the collateral damage caused meant at least some Xenos forces took them out. It’s most likely a combination of those situations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/22 19:06:09


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In one of the early Gaunt's Ghosts books there is the
Spoiler:
STC which needed to be destroyed by the Tanith 1st and Only before it created/awakened any more Men of Iron.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





I wouldn't be surprised if the men of iron were created as a result of encountering the automata armies of the eldar dominion.

The eldar at this stage were starting to slide from grace, but their dominions were unassailable, surrounded by endless automata armies to keep them safe. So safe they could completely ignore the belligerent races around them and concentrate fully on cultural decay.

But without the kind of psychic engineering of the eldar they wouldn't be able to create the kind of perfect automata slave the eldar had, and shenanigans ensued.
   
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An Ork made STC would be fun to see. Probably just a building sized block of metal with a funnel for scrap metal on one side and a chute on the other that spits out whatever you want.

Pretty much thing the grinder from borderlands pre-sequal. Junk goes in, a randomized weapon comes out. The question is, would it be properly an automated machine or just a mekboy brain plugged into a bunch of gubbins.
   
 
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