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I thought Kirby recovered GW from bad financials and most of the finances I recall seeing showed GW increasing in profits over that period of time.

Just nothing like their current increases since they've changed CEO's and many of their attitudes/stances.


I think Kirby certainly followed the money, the problem was he and his management team approach was focused too much on blinkered studies of the returns on investments. Ergo looking at sales data in a purely numerical aspect without player nor consumer feedback or consideration. So they ended up chasing things like "more Marines" and dropping side projects that didn't show as much return on investment as, say, another round of Marines or 40K models.



And as you say the result was they bled customers. They weren't listening to consumer feedback so they lost them even though they remained viable, popular and profitable.
GW also never lost its dominance, they are still the king. However by letting specialist games escape them they did help foster the growth of their own competition.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Interesting. I would have expected a lot of "Little Timmys" but GW apparently priced them out of the game.

Lil Timmies tend to be on places like Reddit and Discord these days I think.

That said, I've definitely noticed the age of the average wargamer has gone up over the years. When I started as a bright eyed young teen, the game stores were mostly people around the middle to high teens, with some pushing early 20's and the occasional (though definitely not rare) guy above 30. Now I'd say the norm is at least 21 with most ranging from about 25-45. Teenagers aren't that rare, but they're almost always the ones with rich parents who're happy to accommodate their £200+ impulse buys.

 Arbitrator wrote:


That said, I've definitely noticed the age of the average wargamer has gone up over the years. When I started as a bright eyed young teen, the game stores were mostly people around the middle to high teens, with some pushing early 20's and the occasional (though definitely not rare) guy above 30. Now I'd say the norm is at least 21 with most ranging from about 25-45. Teenagers aren't that rare, but they're almost always the ones with rich parents who're happy to accommodate their £200+ impulse buys.

I'm not so sure that's the trend. Or at least, I'm definitely not sure we can find a consensus from anecdotal evidence.

When I started wargaming, I thonk I was the lone pre-teen in an environment where most were in their 20s and sometimes older. In a different meta, when I was a teenager, I distinctly recall some individuals at least in their 40s, and probably older, at the club and pushing around RT era models in a 3rd edition local environment. I remember a very wide array of ages through various metas over the years, and I couldn't spot any particular trending in one direction or another.

When I started up most people I knew who played were a similar age to me, maybe 5 years older.

I'm still seeing a lot of late teens and early 20 something's at the local stores and in tourneys (or at least did until 2 years ago...) but they don't seem to check out forums as much.

For about a month I went to a kind of painting gathering with a few people and other than the host I was the oldest person there.

I feel the skew is more that younger people are more likely to be part of social media groups and less likely to be trawling forums, not that younger players don't exist.

 dreadblade wrote:
You enjoy playing 40K so you're active.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You have to enjoy playing 40k to be active? I guess I shouldn't have voted...!

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:


That said, I've definitely noticed the age of the average wargamer has gone up over the years. When I started as a bright eyed young teen, the game stores were mostly people around the middle to high teens, with some pushing early 20's and the occasional (though definitely not rare) guy above 30. Now I'd say the norm is at least 21 with most ranging from about 25-45. Teenagers aren't that rare, but they're almost always the ones with rich parents who're happy to accommodate their £200+ impulse buys.

I'm not so sure that's the trend. Or at least, I'm definitely not sure we can find a consensus from anecdotal evidence.

When I started wargaming, I thonk I was the lone pre-teen in an environment where most were in their 20s and sometimes older. In a different meta, when I was a teenager, I distinctly recall some individuals at least in their 40s, and probably older, at the club and pushing around RT era models in a 3rd edition local environment. I remember a very wide array of ages through various metas over the years, and I couldn't spot any particular trending in one direction or another.

Same. My brother and I would go into the shop as a 12 and 10 year old and play on our own table while my dad played with some of the other older guys. Doesn’t seem to have changed much in 20 years. I love that people are saying that video games are killing GW when clearly their profits are up and video games have been around as long as I’ve been playing.

I specifically like hobbying because it isn't staring at a screen.

 Overread wrote:

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hobojebus wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised by the results, granted it's a limited sample but I wouldn't be shocked if it held true for most of the community.

They've priced out younger people.

I've never known a time when young people weren't priced out and relied on their parents to help support their hobby activities.

Even back 20 years ago GW was the "expensive" hobby for teens/kids.

Truthfully, beyond the stereotype that 'lil timmys (or rather, small boys named Kevin) are the bread and butter of GW sales... I've never seen them in any meaningful numbers. Ever, since the late 80s/early 90s. I got in about that age, but couldn't really talk friends into playing much at all. In shops, the number of times I've seen under 18s playing I can count on one hand. Even in GW shops (when there were such things near me), they were rare birds. Which honestly, has always been a bit of relief. On the rare occasion that some dad does bring his kids in, its a headache, not least because they generally aren't interested and have to be coddled along to play decently and well. Its always been a relief when they peel off for the CCGs.

For ~30 years its been a college kid or creepy older folks game.

Honestly, even though I come here and post-semi-regularly, and have been here for years, I would never recommend new players come to dakkadakka.

It's such a depressing forum, and for me it's just a way to measure how the grumpy side of the fandom reviews something. A way to temper my own hype, sometimes, if you will.

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the player base seems to become older as young people mostly prefer digital games.
One day, this could become a problem for GW / table top gaming industry.

If it were, wouldn't've that happened already?

GW profits are only going up, and it's not as if the sudden electronic boom is new.

no, that said I know that as early as the early aughts there was in the industry some concern over the "greying player base"

Counting on a greying player base could be dangerous.
Players that play less or are less enthusiastic about the hobby, go less or no longer to tourneys.

Little Timmys might exist but not here in the store we are playing.

Despite the fact that some people seem to require an FAQ/errata to work out if they play 40K, the results are quite interesting

Only on Dakka could the question "how old are you?" devolve into three entire pages of pedantry, myopia, axe-grinding and bickering.


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Also lol at people still doing "kids these days are just playing computer games instead", the piping-hot take that's been around for at least twenty-five years now.

Maybe it is a here thing, but I don't know a single person my age who wouldn't be playing CS.

The key isn't that people are or are not playing computer games

The argument is that kids are "only" playing computer games and nothing else. Which is pretty much up there with "watching TV makes your eyes go square" and "Video games will make kids violent"

I have seen enough LANs end in melee to know that CS can very much end in violance. But I think I understand what you mean. It is probably not the only thing people do. What does a hobby in the cost range of a w40k army compete with though? There is a ton of cheaper stuff, and the more expensive stuff is more something like having a PC or a consol. Can't think of many , legal, thinks that you can do at teen age that costs what a w40k costs.

Karol wrote:
I have seen enough LANs end in melee to know that CS can very much end in violance. But I think I understand what you mean. It is probably not the only thing people do. What does a hobby in the cost range of a w40k army compete with though? There is a ton of cheaper stuff, and the more expensive stuff is more something like having a PC or a consol. Can't think of many , legal, thinks that you can do at teen age that costs what a w40k costs.

Almost any after-school activity or extra with a weekly/monthly fee is going to easily add up over time to the cost of a 40K army. So if you're taking any extra lessons/team/training/club stuff that adds up. That's why GW staff are always keen to show parents that its a skill based hobby because then to the parents they are getting free tutoring at the GW store whilst buying models (or at the hobby club); as opposed to say paying for music, sports, swimming, climbing, riding, or other extra curricular activities.

Even within those activities there's gear you need - boots, clothes, equipment etc....


And as for pure hobbies even bird watching can cost if you're really keen - those ornithology books are not cheap and good binoculars or a spotting scope is easily worth FAR more than a 40K army. Heck I got into photography and a new entry level DSLR at the time - ergo your most basic "serious" camera was £400 - that's a whole 40K army's worth of models right there.


YES teens don't have the money, they never really have - their parents do.



And this is purely looking at brand new from GW; you can make huge savings getting from 3rd party stores or second hand. Same as how you can save a lot on tools and such from general hobby/craft/hardware stores.

Oh you don't have to tell me that. Supplements alone cost my mom more then 200$ per month, and there is gear, food and training camp expenses etc without a scholarship the cost would be mind blowing.

Maybe it is the store thing not being a kids drop of zone, making the big difference. If you act wierd here, you will just get a store ban for ever.

And yeah the savings are there. I mean if I wanted to I could have a krieg army for less then what my GK cost or a marine army even cheaper. I am just trying to think more general, as I do assume that not everyone can go two blocks down the street and order 40 new models at their local recaster for the cost of GWs 10.

Voss wrote:

 Overread wrote:

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hobojebus wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised by the results, granted it's a limited sample but I wouldn't be shocked if it held true for most of the community.

They've priced out younger people.

I've never known a time when young people weren't priced out and relied on their parents to help support their hobby activities.

Even back 20 years ago GW was the "expensive" hobby for teens/kids.

Truthfully, beyond the stereotype that 'lil timmys (or rather, small boys named Kevin) are the bread and butter of GW sales... I've never seen them in any meaningful numbers. Ever, since the late 80s/early 90s. I got in about that age, but couldn't really talk friends into playing much at all. In shops, the number of times I've seen under 18s playing I can count on one hand. Even in GW shops (when there were such things near me), they were rare birds. Which honestly, has always been a bit of relief. On the rare occasion that some dad does bring his kids in, its a headache, not least because they generally aren't interested and have to be coddled along to play decently and well. Its always been a relief when they peel off for the CCGs.

For ~30 years its been a college kid or creepy older folks game.

When I was a "Little Timmy" back in the day we would already play at home on a table with great terrain. How was that possible? Well, the older brother of a mate built it for us. That's an explanation why you don't see those folks often playing in stores.

In addition to that playing at a cramped store has always been a subpar option of enjoying the hobby.


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 dreadblade wrote:
Despite the fact that some people seem to require an FAQ/errata to work out if they play 40K, the results are quite interesting

 Overread wrote:
I thought Kirby recovered GW from bad financials and most of the finances I recall seeing showed GW increasing in profits over that period of time.

Just nothing like their current increases since they've changed CEO's and many of their attitudes/stances.


I think Kirby certainly followed the money, the problem was he and his management team approach was focused too much on blinkered studies of the returns on investments. Ergo looking at sales data in a purely numerical aspect without player nor consumer feedback or consideration. So they ended up chasing things like "more Marines" and dropping side projects that didn't show as much return on investment as, say, another round of Marines or 40K models.



And as you say the result was they bled customers. They weren't listening to consumer feedback so they lost them even though they remained viable, popular and profitable.
GW also never lost its dominance, they are still the king. However by letting specialist games escape them they did help foster the growth of their own competition.

GW financials are all public you can check fairly easily, from 2004 till roundtree took over every report except one showed a decrease in profits.

Under Kirby fantasy flight games and their x-wing game dislodged 40k as the most popular and best selling game.

He destroyed warhammer fantasy to bring out AoS and it was such a failure it wiped out all the profit from the massively popular 30k battle of calth set.

His only concern was collecting dividends on the shares he owned.

Early 40s.

Introduced to 40K with Space Crusade, White Dwarf and then Rogue Trader. I enjoyed 3rd a lot but as time went on I had to make the hard decision to bin my collection to focus on other things. Came back to 40K with Lost Patrol 2nd edition and then Kill Team and 8th edition with First Strike.

Currently putting the finishing touches to two 9th edition armies; Harlequins and Chaos Knights.

I would add:

I can't say if it's true of modern teens- I haven't been one for a while now- but in my day, we tended to gather at each other's houses more often; our peer networks were bigger and met more frequently because none of us had kids to look after or huge bills to pay.

As an adult, it can be difficult to gather people even for a sit down pen and paper RPG.

So I don't think the "Little Timmys" gather at stores or play in clubs as much as we do- they have circles of friends who play each other at home- or at least that's how it worked in my day.

I can tell you that as a young teenager, I had no interest in meeting up with a stranger to spend 3-4 hours with them in a store. Always preferred playing at home with friends. Ultimately, I suppose that is what caused me to leave the game when I was younger, but I'm back now that I'm an adult with a bit fewer reservations about stranger danger, being a nerd, or being concerned about how my army looks.

FWIW, my interest in videogames has seriously waned as I've gotten older and that's the case for pretty much all my millennial aged friends as well. Setting aside the impact of covid, I think that face to face interactions together have become more important to us as we have gotten older and our lives busier. An in person social gathering (including 40k games) is something that gets put on my calendar whereas a videogame session not so much.

 Overread wrote:

YES teens don't have the money, they never really have - their parents do.

I definitely wouldn't make that generalization. I've known a number of high-schoolers with jobs of various sorts, and spend it on 40k. Younger teens maybe. But even as a 14/15 year old I was turning a small profit selling painted models, and I've seen other teens do commission painting more recently for $$.

I mowed lawns to pay for my Squats.

Racerguy180 wrote:
I specifically like hobbying because it isn't staring at a screen.

Haha good point.

Since COVID, I feel like I spend my entire life in front of the screen, even traditional off-line hobbies like P&P, MtG and just gathering with friends to talk are now in front of the screen.

It totally hate painting, but in the last year and a half I have just picked up the paint brush multiple times just to not look at a screen. I have also lost interest in playing via TTS due to it being just another thing in front of a screen.


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Voss wrote:
Truthfully, beyond the stereotype that 'lil timmys (or rather, small boys named Kevin) are the bread and butter of GW sales... I've never seen them in any meaningful numbers. Ever, since the late 80s/early 90s. I got in about that age, but couldn't really talk friends into playing much at all. In shops, the number of times I've seen under 18s playing I can count on one hand. Even in GW shops (when there were such things near me), they were rare birds. Which honestly, has always been a bit of relief. On the rare occasion that some dad does bring his kids in, its a headache, not least because they generally aren't interested and have to be coddled along to play decently and well. Its always been a relief when they peel off for the CCGs.

For ~30 years its been a college kid or creepy older folks game.

In Germany, most GW stores are located in city centers with shopping miles or side streets of those. Almost every store has a bunch of kids around 10-15 hanging around regularly because they either live nearby and walk there or get unloaded at the "toy store" so their parents can go shop in peace for an hour or two. Those with enough money (especially the later group) usually start to play eventually and stick around for a year or so before moving on. Some stores even have a "veterans night" to keep the kids out and have the grown-ups game uninterrupted.

I see how this might be different in the US. I remember that my mother had to drive me everywhere when I was living in MI/OH/FL as a kid, as most cities have no city-centers like you have in Germany, you couldn't reach anything by walking or via bike, and public transportation was pretty much non-existent.


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Karol wrote:
Maybe it is a here thing, but I don't know a single person my age who wouldn't be playing CS.

I was playing CS with my friends from school when I was your age and I am more than twice your age.

From my UK experience, going back to the mid 90s, GW stores which are not imminently closing down have been home to 10-15 year olds. The age seemed to go down over time. In circa 1996 when we were 10 me and a few friends felt very young and everyone else was 15. But the time we were 15... everyone seemed to be 10.

By the time we were 16-17 or so (so uh... 2002-2003?) it was made pretty clear we shouldn't show up outside of veterans night. Which we did for a while, but yeah, it kind of died a death.

By contrast I don't think the FLGS I usually go to has ever really had people under the age of 18. I'd say those in their 20s tend more towards MTG, 30 year olds tend to be more into minis, and then you have D&D players who are all over the place, but yeah I'm not sure that's backed by anything.

Well the last few times I've swung by the stoke store there hasn't been anyone in there under 30.

Even on a Saturday that back in the 2000's would of been packed with kids there wasn't one.

It's sad really back before 2004 that store was always full on a games night every table used and a foldout table in the corner to play blood bowl.

Now it's a ghost town.

hobojebus wrote:
Well the last few times I've swung by the stoke store there hasn't been anyone in there under 30.

Even on a Saturday that back in the 2000's would of been packed with kids there wasn't one.

It's sad really back before 2004 that store was always full on a games night every table used and a foldout table in the corner to play blood bowl.

Now it's a ghost town.

You talk about Stoke.
Is this the actual development in UK?