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Made in us
Screamin' Stormboy





So howd they make bonesplitterz better without their ability to just swarm out relatively tanky and Killy per point guys?, I’m mainly in 40k but have a few savage orcs I got for feral gitz, I looked at new aos rules and it seems to just baseline screw with bonesplitterz, I remember they really got a lot out of horde bonuses and formations.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Stux wrote:
tneva82 wrote:

Translocation is sooooo useful now that you can get just outside 9", then move and charge. And lord relictor does it on 2+. Also good backup in case you get tooth&nail scenario that removes reserves.


Wow that's crazy good... surely that'll get FAQd? No one gets a teleport they can move and charge after...


It got faqed to that start of aos3 and book still had. Somehow i doubt it for immediate future

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I find it kind-of incredible people are playing translocate as allowing a move afterward. To me this is exactly like the "Celestine's immune to 1D weapons guys!!!1" thing - an obvious typo. There is no reason to think this one teleport in all of AOS is the only one that allows you to move normally in the movement phase afterward. The fact that they FAQed it that way in the AOS 3 FAQs just shows they were taking the text from the new battletome and C&Ping it in - the battletome has been written for at least six months now due to the printing cycle, long before the FAQ was whipped up by some intern. And we all know what a disaster these FAQs were - remember the ward debacle? Looking at them as evidence of intent is deeply flawed given we know that they were full of all sorts of sloppy errors.

I mean if people are happy playing it that way in their own games more power to them I guess...but I'd really question the wisdom of any TO that allows it, if for some reason they're allowing the book at all before the first FAQ.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 18:35:30


 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation






Out of genuine curiosity, why wouldn't it be allowed? What is there in the rule that makes you think you shouldn't be able to move after using Translocate?

Chaos | Tau | Space Wolves
NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Because you can't do it in any other similar ability in the game. Not a single one. Every single one has an identical limitation of no movement in the following movement phase. For this to be intended, we'd have to posit that they've decided to do something completely different and vastly more powerful than every other similar effect in the game. Given GW's history of typos of exactly this type - forgetting to add standard limiting language - the historically accurate position on these things has been "assume it's a typo, not that they intended to fundamentally change the game, until you get a clear FAQ answer one way or the other."

It's exactly like the Celestine being immune to D1 attacks thing. A (very) few people tried to argue that was intended, but practically everyone recognized it was just that they had forgot to put the bit on the end saying you reduced damage by 1, but to a minimum of 1. Sure enough, it wasn't intended, just as everyone sensible had suggested it couldn't be intended. There are literally dozens of examples over the years of this happening, and practically none of the opposite, where they did intend to make one ability vastly more powerful than other similar ones by deliberately leaving off the standard limitation language.

Here, the 95% chance likelihood is that they forgot to add the language, not that they intended to make this one ability completely different and magnitudes more powerful than every other similar ability.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/23 19:48:21


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Or it could just be the 1st example of other similar rules to come....

Maybe you'll be proven right & GW'll come along with a FAQ (conveniently after selling plenty of the affected models of course). Or maybe not.
But it's the rule at the moment. So if you think you'll be facing Stormcast you'd better account for it.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Anything's theoretically possible. Just like Celestine could have really been immune to 1D weapons. That was technically the rule for a month. But nobody actually played it that way in 40k because it was so obviously wrong. This falls into the same category IMO.

Obviously you can do whatever you want in your games. If you think it's plausible it could be intended and want to play it that way, knock yourself out. It surprises me that people consider it even vaguely plausible, but I've been surprised plenty of times in the past too. It shocked me that people played with 10 point reavers when they were obviously really 20 points, but some people insisted they had a right to do that, too.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






The problem is the number of rules/decisions out there that are equally nonsensical but ARE as intended. After all, we are discussing if a unit can do its normal movement after a teleport while we have dragons who get to do an extra 12" move in the hero phase, can do free charge at the end of that move on a 2+, and still do their normal movement in the subsequent phase.

While I agree the teleport issue is probably a typo, I understand that GW muddies the waters considerably by including rules that are far more broken even without errors.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

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...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
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Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





The dragon thing is even worse. 12" move, charge on 2+, then fall back, move where-ever and pile into combat getting almost as good as always strike first rule as a bonus(there's couple tiny weeny corner cases where this is worse but since you can avoid that issue 99.99% times...) plus bypassing unleash hell etc in the process.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/24 05:54:55


2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in us
Poisonous Tomb Scorpion





I am sad. I was hoping that my Orruk battletome was going to arrive today, but it hasn't even shipped yet. It's the book I'm most interested in, yet the one I'm having the hardest time finding.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/24 09:15:46


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

tneva82 wrote:
The dragon thing is even worse. 12" move, charge on 2+, then fall back, move where-ever and pile into combat getting almost as good as always strike first rule as a bonus(there's couple tiny weeny corner cases where this is worse but since you can avoid that issue 99.99% times...) plus bypassing unleash hell etc in the process.


Gotta sell those new dragon models somehow....
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation






yukishiro1 wrote:
Because you can't do it in any other similar ability in the game. Not a single one. Every single one has an identical limitation of no movement in the following movement phase. For this to be intended, we'd have to posit that they've decided to do something completely different and vastly more powerful than every other similar effect in the game. Given GW's history of typos of exactly this type - forgetting to add standard limiting language - the historically accurate position on these things has been "assume it's a typo, not that they intended to fundamentally change the game, until you get a clear FAQ answer one way or the other."

It's exactly like the Celestine being immune to D1 attacks thing. A (very) few people tried to argue that was intended, but practically everyone recognized it was just that they had forgot to put the bit on the end saying you reduced damage by 1, but to a minimum of 1. Sure enough, it wasn't intended, just as everyone sensible had suggested it couldn't be intended. There are literally dozens of examples over the years of this happening, and practically none of the opposite, where they did intend to make one ability vastly more powerful than other similar ones by deliberately leaving off the standard limitation language.

Here, the 95% chance likelihood is that they forgot to add the language, not that they intended to make this one ability completely different and magnitudes more powerful than every other similar ability.


Cool. So there's nothing in the rule that says you can't move after using translocate. So for now, basically, everyone who uses it this way is in the right, until we're told otherwise. How else are you supposed to play the game, if not by the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For what it's worth, when the faq cut the move limitation I thought it was a mistake. Then the tome came out and you could still do it. I suppose if enough people whinge about something which really isn't that powerful, it'll get changed back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/24 10:17:41


Chaos | Tau | Space Wolves
NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





GW certainly has had ample time to fix the errata if they wanted seeing they have been getting asked it for months.

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in ca
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot






 lare2 wrote:

For what it's worth, when the faq cut the move limitation I thought it was a mistake. Then the tome came out and you could still do it. I suppose if enough people whinge about something which really isn't that powerful, it'll get changed back.


If you don't think that teleporting a unit from the board, to another spot on the board, then giving them, on average, a 4" charge at minimum to an enemy unit is powerful, I don't really know what to say.

Reevaluate what you think is good in this game? Because it seems to be off.

Don't think of it as an isolated ability? Because it's not, Stormcast can teleport loads already, with enhancements to it to begin with. Lord-Imperetant and a Lord-Relictor can pretty reliably shove two really nasty units in to the enemies face, regardless of deployment or location on the board. 7" Deepstrike with a Reroll, and a 9" Deepstrike in to average 5" movement for a 4" charge and CA Reroll if needed.

Or, use it with Stormkeep. Snag objectives behind enemy lines in later rounds with your Counts-as-3-model stormcast units.

 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


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Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





But is it too strong in context of 3rd ed codexes is another thing. New edition, new battletomes, new design ethos, power scale turned up a notch.

Comparing to 2nd ed codexes pointless. New design ethos books invariably more powerfull

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






ccs wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
The dragon thing is even worse. 12" move, charge on 2+, then fall back, move where-ever and pile into combat getting almost as good as always strike first rule as a bonus(there's couple tiny weeny corner cases where this is worse but since you can avoid that issue 99.99% times...) plus bypassing unleash hell etc in the process.


Gotta sell those new dragon models somehow....
They are SCE riding dragons; they would have sold out even if the rules were garbage. I know multiple people who were planning a full army of them just upon seeing the miniatures and explicitly were planning to do so even if they were awful in-game. If pushing sales of new product via making them OP was the goal they would have made the other new units stronger than the dragons to compensate for less appeal.

Even within the bubble of just this one release that old theory falls apart under the barest scrutiny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
But is it too strong in context of 3rd ed codexes is another thing. New edition, new battletomes, new design ethos, power scale turned up a notch.

Comparing to 2nd ed codexes pointless. New design ethos books invariably more powerfull
There is abundant content in the rest of the battletome and in the OWC one to compare to; these aren't small army rosters after all. Within that context it is very much an outlier in terms of how strong it is; only other items already recognized as being completely broken compare. Further, these battletomes as a whole are still weaker than the stronger 2nd edition ones so the power creep argument doesn't hold up well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/24 16:01:20


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
ccs wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
The dragon thing is even worse. 12" move, charge on 2+, then fall back, move where-ever and pile into combat getting almost as good as always strike first rule as a bonus(there's couple tiny weeny corner cases where this is worse but since you can avoid that issue 99.99% times...) plus bypassing unleash hell etc in the process.


Gotta sell those new dragon models somehow....
They are SCE riding dragons; they would have sold out even if the rules were garbage. I know multiple people who were planning a full army of them just upon seeing the miniatures and explicitly were planning to do so even if they were awful in-game. If pushing sales of new product via making them OP was the goal they would have made the other new units stronger than the dragons to compensate for less appeal.

Even within the bubble of just this one release that old theory falls apart under the barest scrutiny.


Blah blah blah blah....

Calm down & pull that stick out of your

It was a joke. Sort of.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Better a stick than my head, eh?

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in ca
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot






Try to remember that sarcasm doesn't translate over text. People do still believe 40k/AoS balance is to push new models with OP rules when it's really just shoddy rules writing and every so often, something new is busted.

So just saying that sentiment isn't really much of a joke.

 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation






 Thadin wrote:
 lare2 wrote:

For what it's worth, when the faq cut the move limitation I thought it was a mistake. Then the tome came out and you could still do it. I suppose if enough people whinge about something which really isn't that powerful, it'll get changed back.


If you don't think that teleporting a unit from the board, to another spot on the board, then giving them, on average, a 4" charge at minimum to an enemy unit is powerful, I don't really know what to say.

Reevaluate what you think is good in this game? Because it seems to be off.

Don't think of it as an isolated ability? Because it's not, Stormcast can teleport loads already, with enhancements to it to begin with. Lord-Imperetant and a Lord-Relictor can pretty reliably shove two really nasty units in to the enemies face, regardless of deployment or location on the board. 7" Deepstrike with a Reroll, and a 9" Deepstrike in to average 5" movement for a 4" charge and CA Reroll if needed.

Or, use it with Stormkeep. Snag objectives behind enemy lines in later rounds with your Counts-as-3-model stormcast units.


Oh, it's definitely powerful. That's not what I'm saying. All I am saying is that I don't think it's so powerful that people should get their knickers in a twist over it.

Chaos | Tau | Space Wolves
NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





So just picked up my SCE and Orruk Battletomes. first impressions? I like these a lot more then the 9th edition 40k codices. They don't short on the fluff for each unit, and the history just seems more comprehensive, from a rules POV I notice the "Create a subfaction rules" are in the Path to glory section which is proably a smart decision. it means that tourny games will involve only the small "pre-genned" stormhosts, ensuring a degree of sanity

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[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

Just got it today, did a quick lookthrough while watching some football.

At a glance, the first thing that I raised my eyebrows at: Not a fan of the “Battleline if ‘X’ Army”.

Granted, its just a paintjob and the community hasn’t shown the inclination to get militant about having the wrong color Stormhost, but it seems like a very limiting change, creatively.

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I do think you raise a good point, I feel like there was too much emphasis placed on sub-faction battleline for both armies. OWC made out worse IMO, with several options being unlocked by sub-faction when they should really be done by allegiance. I'd say all three of the bonesplitterz battleline-if options should just be for going bonesplitterz rather than a specific sub-faction within it, for example.

Meanwhile SCE has hunters and sequitors as generic battleline when they really just... aren't. I would have made them conditional on a general with the vanguard or sacrosanct keyword, respectively.

That's just me though.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Meanwhile SCE has hunters and sequitors as generic battleline when they really just... aren't. I would have made them conditional on a general with the vanguard or sacrosanct keyword, respectively.


I’d have preferred that, as that is how it was for SCE previously.

For myself, sometime before the pandemic started, I had a sizeable Vanguard Chamber army in Knights Excelsior scheme(in various stages), complete with their now discontinued upgrade kit. Feels kind of weird to now use them as Astral Templars, rules-wise. Not a big deal to me, but its still a weird limbo to be in.

With that said, going to now do an all Paladin army with all the shoulder pads that I can use for them, using thevKnights Excelsior rules.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/27 00:05:38


"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 nels1031 wrote:
Just got it today, did a quick lookthrough while watching some football.

At a glance, the first thing that I raised my eyebrows at: Not a fan of the “Battleline if ‘X’ Army”.

Granted, its just a paintjob and the community hasn’t shown the inclination to get militant about having the wrong color Stormhost, but it seems like a very limiting change, creatively.


Myself I prefer this over specific general.

This is just change of tiny rule since 75%+ of subfaction specific stuff got cut away. Specific model limits army building lot more than noting to army list "this is X stormhost". That is 0 points. Specific general costs points reducing amount you have to spend.

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

 Thadin wrote:
 lare2 wrote:

For what it's worth, when the faq cut the move limitation I thought it was a mistake. Then the tome came out and you could still do it. I suppose if enough people whinge about something which really isn't that powerful, it'll get changed back.


If you don't think that teleporting a unit from the board, to another spot on the board, then giving them, on average, a 4" charge at minimum to an enemy unit is powerful, I don't really know what to say.

Reevaluate what you think is good in this game? Because it seems to be off.

Don't think of it as an isolated ability? Because it's not, Stormcast can teleport loads already, with enhancements to it to begin with. Lord-Imperetant and a Lord-Relictor can pretty reliably shove two really nasty units in to the enemies face, regardless of deployment or location on the board. 7" Deepstrike with a Reroll, and a 9" Deepstrike in to average 5" movement for a 4" charge and CA Reroll if needed.

Or, use it with Stormkeep. Snag objectives behind enemy lines in later rounds with your Counts-as-3-model stormcast units.


I am new to the Aos new codexes. What combination is it that gives those charges?

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

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Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Translocation prayer, teleports a unit and as usual you have to be 9" or more from enemies. However current wording allows you to move before charging, meaning with 5" movement your charge is only 4". A lot of us expecting this to get FAQd though.

The 7" charge is from the Lord Imperitant. He has an ability that means when you teleport units onto the battlefield using their allegiance ability they can be placed up to 7" away from enemies instead of 9. However, only for Thunderstrike units (eg Vindictors, Annihilators, etc).

Reroll charges is something that's fairly easy to get, as there's a command ability for it.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

That will get an FAQ.

A 7 charge is 58,33%, with a re-roll somewhere around 75%. Not to bad, certanly a great threat but hardly gamebreaking.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in fi
Dark Angels Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Playing Tempest Lords stormhost makes it even more reliable, when you can reroll 1 of the dice used in charge, which tend to be more reliable than rerolling both. That depends what the original throw was, ofc.

I'm currently working on small points list with couple of chariots and Lord-Relictor to see how stupid can Translocation on 2+ get.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/08 20:31:17


 
   
 
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