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Yeah, no. F That. I'm not letting two characters dominate the game with their RP lovemaking. They can fade to black that crap and talk about it after.

Rape has no place in DnD. I don't care what monsters you include. Trying to advocate for allowing players to literally rape is wrong, and dumb.

Cyel wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Cyel wrote:
If RPG is about people impersonating adult characters and having interactions and building relations with each other I can't see how romance and sex can be left out of the game completely - it will make some interactions and relations weird and artificial.

In the same way that you can have adult movies that are rated pg13 or tv shows that can air during the day time.

Unlike a TV show an RPG session isn't entirely scripted, though. If player characters decide to have an intimate relationship GM shouldn't stomp their feet saying "You can't! Why? Because I say so, that's why!" any more than in any other situation when players want to expand their own story the way they want. Such an artificial constraint would make players lose agency in their own story, which in my opinion is unacceptable in a narrative game revolving around lifelike freedom of choice.

An RPG session isn't entirely scripted, but most DMs will have a script and structure for the evenings adventure. Ranging from very open ended at one end of the scale; through to preconstructed adventures or even fully worked out structures.
Yes a good DM reacts to their party and allows deviation from "the plan". However the concept of DnD is not that there is total freedom to do whatever you want. The concept is for the group (players and dm) to come together to play a roleplay game. Within that structure what is and isn't allowed; what is and isn't the focus; what they do and how they do it are all compromises that the group comes together to make to achieve the single goal.


So some games will have rape and pillaging and dark gritty edgy things; some will have loads of romancing scenes; some might be built around combat; others might have lots of politics and not much combat; etc..... There is NO one hat fits all definition for what should be in a game. Instead each setup is unique and adapts to the player and dm group.

I definitely agree with that. I was just opposed to the strict stance of "love and sex have no place in RPGs by definition!" and in particular the hypocrytical approach of "Lovemaking, bleargh!!! Killing is fine, though."

As with every social interaction, communication and compromise will lead to nicely formed groups of people with similar expectations having fun together.

Look, I'm not saying you can't "seduce the dragon", but just don't ask the party to literally wait while you drone on for 15 minutes of you pre-prepared speech about how you start at the tail, and end up at the mouth. I'm not giving you d6 inspiration, I'm "ok you seduce the dragon"-ing that crap and moving on. If that "ruins your experience" then I would say your experience was never about playing a game with friends, it was about living out your sex fantasy with a spotlight for 15 minutes.

I didnt say it has no place. I said it was possible to rp adults with potential romantic interests and such without it being R or X rated.

If someone at your table isn't comfortable you don't get the trample on their good time because you want to describe your sexual encounters.

You are fully capable of rping a realistic adult without upping the rating for that content. Just like tv and movies do. It doesn't diminish your ability to rp a realistic adult by not describing when your horny or how often your character has a spank.

I think we all agree what happened to the OP is not the way things should be done..... at all. If it does not work for the OP, they can either engage with their fellow players to try and set the appropriate group boundaries or leave the group.

Now, the bigger question about if these things should be "allowed" in D&D is a very different question that we are trying to engage with as well.

The sub-bullet being, if this were to be "allowed" in D&D, how should it be handled?

The obvious answer is, on a table-by-table basis with group consent.

Someone suggested it earlier and I think it's a great idea:

A Checklist -

What are your triggers, what subjects affect you negatively/positively?

Rape
Racism
Politics
Slavery
Torture
Murder
Gore
Violence
Sex
etc?

The checklist and session zeros are always a great idea.

I would say Yes, but very much so only if the entire group is ok with it.

Role-playing games, by their nature, should take into account the entire table of players. If you are all ok with horrendous stuff like the above, go for it. If anybody at the table isn't ok with it, then its a big fat no.

Personally, I am fine with such things being portrayed in the setting around the players. I would personally draw the line at rape-y things being done by and/or to the players. IE: I'm fine if the players witness such an awful act within the context of the story. I would not be ok with a player going "I go rape this NPC/PC/etc..."

I think that stuff of a sexual nature is one thing in dnd best kept "off-screen". I don't mind if it happens or if it is discussed, but I don't want a narration. I played a massively horny monk who got it on with multiple npcs, but it all happened off-screen aside from the initial seduction rolls and rp banter. Basically, keep it PG13 when it comes to sexy stuff.

 Polonius wrote:
For many people, like myself, D&D in the 90s was done in my mom's basement with Mountain Dew, Cheetos, and few, if any, women around. Not shockingly, it was pretty light on sexual content.

You mean, when Book of Vile Darkness (which among others, had a section on sexual nature of evil) and Book of Erotic Fantasy (120 page sourcebook devoted solely to subject) came out? Because I remember it differently, it was pretty much peak of male gaze and ignoring consent, inclusivity and diversity were only starting to gain steam a few years after that. And that's just considering core D&D, comics and art were even harder (you could get away with picturing all female characters completely nude as long as they had painted on token bra and thong, everything else was fair game). I don't know, maybe it looked differently in USA, but I wouldn't say sexual content back then here was 'light'. Sure, it was mostly stuff targeted at thirsty teens and rarely anything mature and/or well though out, but it was there. People were just more likely to shrug and fail to notice it.

And then you have fantasy literature from that period, where so many had rape either going on screen, or in backstory of characters to give them cheap drama (seriously, someone counted and in top 30 books of Fantasy reddit only 2-3 had no rape at all) so I wonder where multiple people in this thread got the idea it was some innocent, children friendly era. You couldn't throw a stone to not hit something sexual back then, no matter where you looked, RPG games, comics, books, movies, everything pretty much. Some people were just less aware and sensitivies more likely to be ignored or unvoiced.

 Lance845 wrote:

Cyel wrote:
If RPG is about people impersonating adult characters and having interactions and building relations with each other I can't see how romance and sex can be left out of the game completely - it will make some interactions and relations weird and artificial.

In the same way that you can have adult movies that are rated pg13 or tv shows that can air during the day time.

You know how US-centric this sentence is? In vast majority of countries, mass shooting of schools and similar (that is completely fine on US television) ranks above someone showing tits or butt in age ranking and day time TV is more likely to show the latter, not the former. Hell, I remember being shown movie based on school lecture in class which included pair of actors bathing nude in river - no covering anything. That was in elementary school, it had 12+ age rating. US puritanism and censorship of the topic is aberration, not the norm, and in my experience produces warped view of the world that makes healthy relationships and/or discussion of the topic harder. Burying head in the sand and pretending the problem doesn't exist won't make it go away, if anything it will create problems where no one else has any.

It's important to note age, influences and such can vary a lot within a country let alone between countries. Two people can both have DnD experiences in the same year that are vastly different. If they are early or first impressions they will shape that person's perception of "what DnD is".

One might be playing all mature games with lots of sexy things happening; another might be more akin to a Saturday morning cartoon with a heavy lean on combat but otherwise nothing "risky".

If their play groups then keep reinforcing those styles for a while it becomes the standard norm for them. If years later "things change" it might not be that anything changed within the hobby itself at large; but that that person is now interacting with a different group.


It's more marked in something like DnD than in, say, 40K; because DnD is by its very structure very open as to what happens being left up to the players. Meanwhile something like 40K has a much more rigid set of rules and approaches. Of course there's variation even in 40K, but its not typically as drastic a difference.


Edit - also don't forget the internet! Go back 20 years or so and the internet was very new, very niche and even what was on it was niche. You didn't have big social media influencers and such and a lot of geeky things were much more limited in scope. As a result a persons sphere of influence was very localised and the potential to "dive deeper" was there but not always as easily not freely accessed. Today you can hop online and google and social media can expose you to a VAST wealth of diversity within any hobby.
Of course the flipside is big influencers tend to gravitate toward similar themes os there is also some standardising that happens too; but in general there is far more media out there now than ever before. Far more easy exposure to it and far more easy access.

 Irbis wrote:


You know how US-centric this sentence is? In vast majority of countries, mass shooting of schools and similar (that is completely fine on US television) ranks above someone showing tits or butt in age ranking and day time TV is more likely to show the latter, not the former. Hell, I remember being shown movie based on school lecture in class which included pair of actors bathing nude in river - no covering anything. That was in elementary school, it had 12+ age rating. US puritanism and censorship of the topic is aberration, not the norm, and in my experience produces warped view of the world that makes healthy relationships and/or discussion of the topic harder. Burying head in the sand and pretending the problem doesn't exist won't make it go away, if anything it will create problems where no one else has any.

It reminded me of one discussion on a Warmachine forum about a similar topic where I used a Louis Royo picture to illustrate some point. The mods censored this picture, but the funny thing is they explained it was because of the naked breasts with nipples and all and not because the lady in question held a severed head dripping with blood XD

I commented on it asking whether anyone would rather have their children see more nipples or more severed heads in their lives

As for D&D, I'm hardly an expert, I have much more experience with low fantasy WFRP where you more often die of pneumonia or killed by peasants you've just helped because you have fur boots and the winter is coming, rather than being eaten by a dragon. It's much more relatable and compelling to me. In a setting inspired by middle ages a threat of being violated is a very real one to any female character, whether they are a peasant woman gathering berries alone or a noble girl married against her will. As much a part of the harsh reality of life in these times as malnourishment, typhoid or frostbite.

The point wasn't what should or should not be shown/played. The point was it's possible to rp a realistic adult without dipping into sex.

I don't care if sex is rped if everyone at the table is comfortable. Someone made a point that limiting it prevented them from playing an actual person. I explained that it didn't.

I'll never forget the best DM advice I was ever given.
You are the god of your world, you made it.
If you wanted to say that sexual assault isn't a thing in your world, that no one has ever conceived of it, you can.

All in all, this is why you vet players or only play with those you trust

 Lance845 wrote:

Their very existence is a date rape drug. And their sexual assaults is their version of hunting for sustenance. At least, in every version of fiction where I have seen a succubus or inccubus. It's possible that in some other fiction somebody has used the name to represent some other kind of creature. But I mean... at that point it's a succubus in name only.

I mean.... Drukhari, but yeah "in name only" in that case.

Also, just a side note. Xenomorphs are themes of sexual assault and rape. A face huger literally impregnates you against your will. Big Chap (The titular alien in Alien) is called "Kane's son" by Ash. https://www.alien-rpg.com/ there is the RPG for it.

Yep. And VERY deliberately so. It was a core concept behind their design and the writing behind it. Definitely not coincidental or a case of "reading to much into things".

 Grey Templar wrote:
I would say Yes, but very much so only if the entire group is ok with it.

Role-playing games, by their nature, should take into account the entire table of players. If you are all ok with horrendous stuff like the above, go for it. If anybody at the table isn't ok with it, then its a big fat no.

Personally, I am fine with such things being portrayed in the setting around the players. I would personally draw the line at rape-y things being done by and/or to the players. IE: I'm fine if the players witness such an awful act within the context of the story. I would not be ok with a player going "I go rape this NPC/PC/etc..."

Once had an player do that.
HE aint allowed in the star wars campaing im making.

There are massive differences between sex, violence, gore, etc. I really don't understand why people constantly conflate sex with violence and then go, "Well, why can't we show sex to kids?"

They're not comparable at all. It's like saying if kids can watch violence then they should be able to smoke or drink. They're not related.

There's this taboo around sexuality and sexual health that is just weird to me considering that from the youngest age possible parents try to place their children into relationships either real or fictional.
How many times have you been asked "Ohhh is he/she your boy/girlfriend?" or "When are you going to get a boy/girlfriend?". There is a continuing societal narrative that opposite sexes/genders can't be real friends because obviously, they want to get together and make babies. Likewise, single friends of the same sex/gender often get jokes made about how they're secretly gay and if you don't have a partner you're seen as weird (although this is changing to a degree).
Yet despite all of this sexuality and sexual health are taboo topics that you aren't supposed to talk about. Why should sex be banned from D&D when it's all anyone in the real world seems to push on everyone else?

trexmeyer wrote:
There are massive differences between sex, violence, gore, etc. I really don't understand why people constantly conflate sex with violence and then go, "Well, why can't we show sex to kids?"

They're not comparable at all. It's like saying if kids can watch violence then they should be able to smoke or drink. They're not related.

Of course they are different - I guess people in general would like their children to have plenty of sex in their adult lives and as little violence as possible.

The comparison comes from the fact that the choice of things children are allowed to watch (or play) seems to indicate something directly opposite which is some unexplainable hypocrisy.

Regarding the OP, that is absoultely not acceptable - not because of the content, but because you had already told the DM that it wasn't ok, and hte DM did it anyway.

Was it necessary? I'd say no. It would have been adequately horrifying if the player lost control and "just" brutally murdered everyone in the house. The rest that was added doesn't actually add to anything - no-one can reasonably say that it's ok that they only murdered them, so the crime could have stopped there.

Should it be allowed in DnD? There's no rules to stop you, but that doesn't mean it has an acceptable place by default. This sort of thing needs to be addressed before it comes up, as it sounds like it was before the DM decided to ignore your response. Blood and fighting and even swearing is something you might expect "by default" in dnd, and then darker themes like torture or murder again can be anticipated by the players, but in a game which is inherantly supposed to be fun for everyone, bringing rape into it without making sure that's ok is an absolute no go.


So my view is that it shouldn't be a part of DnD unless people agree that it's ok, rather than it should be unless they say otherwise. You shouldn't have to say "no rape please" before a game, that should be the default setting IMO.

I would say that in the setting, under the DMs control and it happens "off screen" then maybe as that is more controlled? Maybe. Again as long as people around the table are comfortable with it.

Should a player be able to sexually assault either NPCs or other PCs? Absolutely not. You have millions of options and can create your own character and do all sorts of things. And what you want to do is be a rapist? Really? That says everything about the person.

At the end of the day, adults can do whatever they want. If everybody has a good time, then that's all that matters.

Personally, though, I struggle to think of a situation where I want to be around anybody roleplaying any form of explicit sexual act, much less sexual violence.

Also, when it comes to "allowing" things like this... who would stop you? It's not like D&D has an overarching police department that comes and arrests you when you're "playing wrong."

It is up to each group to decide what is and is not allowed, and to respect each player's (and DM's!) personal boundaries. Everything is allowed, and nothing is required. Work with your group to find what works for you, and what doesn't.

The same way we stop people hitting people when their dice say 1 instead of 20. We don't tolerate it. We make a collective decision as adults to consciously prohibit and prevent this sort of behavior in games.

We don't spend money on companies that promote sexual violence.

We don't allow players at tables that promote it.

We don't run stories/adventures that promote it.

We simply stop promoting it's inclusion in games.

How do we stop sexual violence being portrayed in a kids game? We simply stop.

How we allow it is whataboutisms and "Well this seems really complicated, I'm just not going to honestly engage" style arguments.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The same way we stop people hitting people when their dice say 1 instead of 20. We don't tolerate it. We make a collective decision as adults to consciously prohibit and prevent this sort of behavior in games.

We don't spend money on companies that promote sexual violence.

We don't allow players at tables that promote it.

We don't run stories/adventures that promote it.

We simply stop promoting it's inclusion in games.

How do we stop sexual violence being portrayed in a kids game? We simply stop.

How we allow it is whataboutisms and "Well this seems really complicated, I'm just not going to honestly engage" style arguments.

D&D is hardly a "kid's game". It CAN be, yes, but it's a game for all ages. That means adults, too. That means adults get to decide what kind of game they want.

I respect and defend your right to not be subjected to unwanted, non-consensual sexual content. The second you say that I have to follow the same rules you do, you and I are at odds.

Let me have my game, which may or may not contain sexual material as I and my group decide, and you can have yours.

 Octopoid wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The same way we stop people hitting people when their dice say 1 instead of 20. We don't tolerate it. We make a collective decision as adults to consciously prohibit and prevent this sort of behavior in games.

We don't spend money on companies that promote sexual violence.

We don't allow players at tables that promote it.

We don't run stories/adventures that promote it.

We simply stop promoting it's inclusion in games.

How do we stop sexual violence being portrayed in a kids game? We simply stop.

How we allow it is whataboutisms and "Well this seems really complicated, I'm just not going to honestly engage" style arguments.

D&D is hardly a "kid's game". It CAN be, yes, but it's a game for all ages. That means adults, too. That means adults get to decide what kind of game they want.

I respect and defend your right to not be subjected to unwanted, non-consensual sexual content. The second you say that I have to follow the same rules you do, you and I are at odds.

Let me have my game, which may or may not contain sexual material as I and my group decide, and you can have yours.

So can you please explain to me what purpose you have in wanting Rape to be a part of your game?

I feel like this is just internet posturing about "Muh freedums!"

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


So can you please explain to me what purpose you have in wanting Rape to be a part of your game?

I feel like this is just internet posturing about "Muh freedums!"

So, you didn't READ my post, then. I didn't say I wanted rape to be a part of my game. I DO however want the ability to include it if my group decides they want to.

This is a simple argument: If you don't like it, don't do it. Don't tell other people what they can and can't do.

 Octopoid wrote:
This is a simple argument: If you don't like it, don't do it. Don't tell other people what they can and can't do.

What happens when what you do affects others, even if they don't partake themselves? For example, someone at the table triggered by sexual assault?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
This is a simple argument: If you don't like it, don't do it. Don't tell other people what they can and can't do.

What happens when what you do affects others, even if they don't partake themselves? For example, someone at the table triggered by sexual assault?

That complicates the argument slightly, but it's still the same basic premise. Have a Session 0, discuss limits and boundaries, RESPECT those limits and boundaries, and if someone else in your group isn't, replace them. If that's the whole rest of the group, then so be it. But don't tell them they can't have that kind of game if they want to do so without you present. That's where your decision also impacts theirs, and where your personal responsibility is not to make a blanket statement that, "X is wrong because I don't like it and you can't ever do it," but instead to remove yourself from a situation that is toxic for you.

Talk first, like an adult, and if that doesn't solve the problem, remove yourself from that environment.

Rape, abuse, and other such things should not be part of a normal D&D game, in my opinion. If you want to include them, make 100% sure that everyone at the table is okay with it-and it should be presented as unequivocally bad.

I made a mistake, as a DM, of including spousal abuse as a way to portray how crappy that area was. It seriously affected one of my players, and I still feel regret for doing that.

That doesn’t mean you can never include it-but it does mean you need to have care and understanding with it.

Your table, as said before, Fezzik, is obviously not using care. They aren’t respecting you, and you’d be way better off leaving.

As for just including sexual elements… again, make sure everyone at the table is okay with it, but that’s much easier to include, to me. If you’re playing at a table with adults and your PC decides to go to the brothel for a good time, most tables shouldn’t include any major details, but some tables would be fine with that. So long as everyone is comfortable, respected, and having fun, that’s what matters.