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Moving the majority of MCs towards T8 just make Space Marine (especially the first born Tactical Squad marine) even worse than now compare to other factions such as IG or Tau, like the change of Orks toughness from T4 to T5.
Now bolters just wound the MCs on 6s, which is the same as Lasgun, and the Space Marine fist punch those MCs also wound on 6s, same as a guards man, while a Tactical Marine just cost trice as a guards man.
Compare to Tau, Tau pulse rifle shoot at those MCs are not impacted by the change of toughness unlike SM bolters, meanwhile Tau firewarriors fist punching MC would wound the MCs just like SM. At the same time the fire warrior costs just half the price of SM Tactical Marine.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Moving the majority of MCs towards T8 just make Space Marine (especially the first born Tactical Squad marine) even worse than now compare to other factions such as IG or Tau, like the change of Orks toughness from T4 to T5.
Now bolters just wound the MCs on 6s, which is the same as Lasgun, and the Space Marine fist punch those MCs also wound on 6s, same as a guards man, while a Tactical Marine just cost trice as a guards man.
Compare to Tau, Tau pulse rifle shoot at those MCs are not impacted by the change of toughness unlike SM bolters, meanwhile Tau firewarriors fist punching MC would wound the MCs just like SM. At the same time the fire warrior costs just half the price of SM Tactical Marine.

I don't understand how this is a problem? The value of a unit is not only determined by how it plays into T8, that would be quite reductive. Space marines are quite a bit tougher than guardsmen and wound a lot of things below T8 better than guardsmen. Tau pulse rifles wound better than a bolter, but fire warriors are significantly more squishy than space marines.

It's kinda funny how it's almost universally accepted that the game has gotten too lethal, but as soon as it is discussed that some units should or could be T8/T9, without fail people bring up bolters. Well there's more than enough anti tank weapons in the game so who cares if a bolter wounds a tank on 6s? Buffs to T8 and especially to T9 and above should also be very selective. It must not be like AP and invulns where everyone and their grandma suddenly get's at least AP2 and an invuln on everything.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Completely untrue

Land Raider w/AV14 vs S8 Krak Missile/S9 Lascannon = Damaged on a 6+/5+. Vs Anything S8 and below = Cannot damage.
Land Raider w/T8 S8 Krak Missile/S9 Lascannon = Damaged on a 4+/3+. VS S1 through S7 = Can cause damage.

Yes, vehicles could die in one shot in 3rd-7th, but vehicles these were immune to certain weapons. Now everything can kill everything, and with so many multi-shot mid-damage weapons out there, you can go fishing with high rate-of-fire weapons for targets that shouldn't worry about it.

I like how you conveniently 'forgot' that AV14 vehicles in 7- had no save. Now they have 2+. They also had 2-3 wounds in modern terms, making killing them laughably easy because even glance took these off (and hell, you didn't even need to kill them, crew stunned, immobilize or blowing up main gun was often enough to send 180-260 pts down the drain and doable in a single mediocre roll). You also 'forgot' that AV14 often had 10 in the back making them laughably easy to kill even with lightest guns or melee, especially if you had some broken rule like Eldar/Tau speed (or the even more broken Tau gak that outright always targeted rear AV, even if it was out of los, out of range, and physically impossible to hit). Then there was tank hunter, that some armies could hand out like candy, making AV even more of a mockery, rending, ordnance, melta, lance, etc, etc, all making AV 14 just as good as wet paper, when now these guns can fail wound or armor save much easier (unless it's another round of broken Eldar/Tau gak, thanks Kelly!).

So yeah, completely untrue

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If the game had USRs you could make vehicle durability really very simple:

[snip]

So, your 'solution' to the issue would be to introduce a dozen new "USR"s, that would change little in practice, besides unfairly and unpredictably crippling some guns or even whole armies, greatly adding to page flipping in multiple books, ink waste, illusion of complexity by verbosity, all to mimic what already naturally emerges from the rules plus a few strategic additions in datasheets?

And you think this is argument for USRs?

I can see introduction of Codex Special Rules (CSRs) being a viable option if more than say 4-5 units in the book have said rule, for ease of errata and reference. USRs, though, were a gak system and good riddance to it. I am still amazed people who look with rose glasses on them never manage to see their own proposed uses always end up the best justification for USR removal, TYVM

This is especially funny when you look at the tightest and biggest competitive ruleset in the tabletop gaming, Magic:TG. They kinda sorta have universal rules but they always print reminder text on cards (despite them being smaller than datasheets) and aren't afraid of modifying these to make a bespoke version, just like 40K post 8th edition. The issue with 40K is inept rule writers, not going back to gak system that was maybe good in 80s but has no place in the books printed in 2020s. If anything, GW did not went far enough, the other clunky, gak pageflipper (the armoury system) should be eradicated with extreme prejudice too, 5th edition already shown far superior way of doing so.