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Seems like GW is introducing more stuff with T8 in the game these days. For example:

Tyranids: Haruspex, Swarmlord, Walking Hive Tyrant all T8

Tau: Stormsurge T8

Eldar: Avatar of Khaine T8

Will this be a trend? And let's not forget that eventually, knights will be getting a new codex. Should we plan for dealing with T8 in our lists? T8 is actually pretty good currently as there are not that many shooting weapons which are above Str 8 so most shooting weapons will only wound them on a 4+ or worse.

It seems like it and I'm glad they're finally making it exist besides largely limiting it to SHV and specific centerpiece units like Land Raiders. What I'm really hoping they do at the beginning of 10th edition is a potential stat reset. The fact that they are resorting to all these bespoke rules of Transhuman, -1D and D3+3 damage shows that they're struggling to make units worth the raw stats they have on their datasheet. The fact that GW didn't take advantage of the stat reset at the beginning of 8th was a great mistake since capping themselves at T8 and not changing a lot of the new units into a more wide spectrum of toughness and strength given the wounding table changes would have made it easier to distinguish 5 point models like grots and current 6 point models like Kroot.

Not sure if this has an impact, maybe for Nids.
Tougher units deserve higher toughness.
With T8, bolters have a harder time to wound.
But I think this is justified.

Hopefully GUO will follow suit.

I don't think it changes much I mean if you look at armies tools for dealing with them it's still meltas las cannons and thunder hammer having a little more T8 won't change much because too many of the missions are now focused on infantry which those tools are not the answer to

Tau with railguns will have some fun to battle T8 models.
Not sure if I want to field a monster in my Eldar army, actually not.

I think it's a good thing. The game is way too lethal anyway, which is why they handed out invulns like crazy, which is why they now hand out rules that ignore invulns....it's just so stupid, short sighted and reactionary.

They should have gone for more T9 and T10 a long time ago. There is no reason the Baneblade shouldn't be at least T9 with a 2+ save for example. Whats the point of raising the possible strength way above 10 if you don't follow suite with the other stats, especially right after you slimmed down the datasheets anyway.

Definitely knights ought to be t9 with 30 wounds not 24

For Tyranids, the Haruspex, Exocrine, Tyrannofex, and Tervigon were already T8 (and technically they also have the Heirodules, Harridan, and Hierophant). The Swarmlord and standard Hive Tyrant are surprises, but there is precedent for them (traditionally, winged bioforms have had lower toughness and worse save than their ground-pounding equivalent to represent their lightweight construction - they basically decided for the Tyrant's to bring back the Armored Shell for the walking chassis instead of nerfing the flying variant).

I think the Stormsurge change also makes sense, it is basically the Tau equivalent to an Imperial Knight so they gave it stats like one (trading melee capability for more guns). The Avatar can also be justified. Its old T6 matched Wraithguard (which it was around the size of) and the new one appears to be similar in size to a Wraithlord so they gave it a toughness bump to match.

T8 has always been fairly common, just most of the units with T8 aren't viewed as being worth their points (exhibit A: Land Raiders, stock Leman Russes, all Baneblade chassis vehicles, most of the aforementioned Tyranid monsters) and don't see much competitive play as a result.

U02dah4 wrote:
Definitely knights ought to be t9 with 30 wounds not 24

Yeah, it's a question of design space and GW not using it. Knights and maybe Baneblades should be T9 or even T10 (if we're only looking for slight adjustments). This will allow light vehicles to upgrade into T7 space (as well as staying in T6 for very light vehicles), which frees up design space down below. Right now, Gravis Marines infringe on Custodes design space a fair amount, but we could boost Custodes T to 6/7 instead of 5/6 if Knights/Baneblades are T10, Leman's are T8-9, Raiders are T7, e.t.c.

Wounds are similar.

Now if you really want to up the design space you could start utilizing up to T12 for Knights, T10 for the Lemans-esque units, T8ish for light vehicles, e.t.c. This kind of big change would need strength levels on profiles to be rebalanced too though.

its kinda needed. Ever since Armor Values went away vehicles have been extremely squishy since they werent immune to small arms anymore
(Applies to MC too in some cases but not as often)

What i dont get is why is T8 the "max" these days...even the Warlord Titan is suddenly T8.

Oh geez don't get me going. The warlord titan being T8 is about one of the dumbest things I have ever seen GW do from a design standpoint. That thing should be T10 at the very least.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
its kinda needed. Ever since Armor Values went away vehicles have been extremely squishy since they werent immune to small arms anymore

Completely untrue

I agree with Vineheart. Theres some vehicles that have been incredibly hard to chew through, but I think a lot of vehicles don't have as much staying power as they used to and they are unquestionably more vulnerable to small arms now than they were before, simply by virtue of the fact that now a lasgun or a bolter can potentially damage a vehicle, whereas before they were wholly immune.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
its kinda needed. Ever since Armor Values went away vehicles have been extremely squishy since they werent immune to small arms anymore.

Kinda. Vehicles were absurdly fragile in 6th and 7th when hull points were introduced (to the point that the best tool for dealing with most vehicles was mass S6/7 to glance out the hull points with no save). Most monsters were also low enough toughness that small arms could hurt them (with the Wraithlord and Wraith Knight being one of the few exceptions).

For what it is worth, light vehicles are tougher than their old counterparts. Against AV11 Rhino you needed a 3+ to "wound" with a S8 gun, same as a T7 Rhino (though the T7 Rhino now has an armor save to negate damage, the old one had none). In comparison, an AV14 Landraider or Monolith required a 6 to "wound" with the same weapon, while the T8 incarnations get hurt on a 4+ (though admittedly, the old Landraider and Monolith had 4 hull points each, compared to the pile of wounds the current incarnations have). Most vehicles could also still be glanced to death with S4 weapons to an AV10 rear (which was almost universal, excluding a few very heavy vehicles and Necron vehicles with AV11 all around). While you theoretically could kill a vehicle with sheer volume of S4, the quantity of shots needed doesn't make it a very effective method to bring one down.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
What i dont get is why is T8 the "max" these days...even the Warlord Titan is suddenly T8.

Possibly because there aren't that many ranged weapons that go above S9 (though admittedly there are a LOT of melee weapons that range from S12 to S14). Admittedly, the Warlord Titan has an unholy amount of wounds AND multiple void shields that need to be cracked first, so it isn't exactly fragile (ignoring its ludicrous cost).

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
its kinda needed. Ever since Armor Values went away vehicles have been extremely squishy since they werent immune to small arms anymore

Completely untrue

Really?

Speaking as someone who used vehicles a lot in 6/7th edition, i can assure you that yes it is true.

In 6/7th weapons of S7+ were not common outside of melee. Units using them either cost an arm and a leg or were extremely fragile and easily disposed of. Big example? Broadsides with missilepods. Yes, they glanced vehicles to death right and left, they also cost way more than any single vehicle that wasnt AV14 by a large margin.
Its why AV11 was such a big deal because now most of the small weapons that more than half of your army had could NOT hurt that vehicle even on 6s. Its why i ran a wall of Piranhas so much when i played tau, that AV11 front meant they had to use their bigger guns to get rid of that screen.
Not saying vehicles were hard to kill before, nonono, i am saying that chaff weapons suddenly being able to chip away at vehicles is a problem because before they could not. Bolters either needed a 6 to glance or couldnt hurt the vehicle across the board, now theyre all wounding on 5s and sometimes 4s thanks to +1 to wound shenanigans, lasguns couldnt hurt vehicles at all. Previously vehicles were either incredibly annoying to get rid of or 1-shot BANG ok its out of the way (which is also bad but different topic)

The amount of times in 9th i have had my medium/heavy vehicles get 2-4 wounds plinked off of them from chaff that had no other valid target is ridiculous. Doesnt sound like much until you realize now that vehicle is in the butter zone for a single big shot to kill it instead of needing 2.
Also, in 9th, S8+ weapons are not that hard to spam for some reason. Vehicles currently are almost entirely not that hard to kill because we are packed to the gills in anti-vehicle weapons that cost like 70% of the vehicle theyre 1shotting, balanced because "they suck at killing hordes"
Vehicles no longer feel like theyre a "wall" that the enemy must use bigger weapons to deal with. I used to use them all the time as roadblockers and the such because nobody liked bringing the proper weapons to deal with them. I cannot do that anymore because vehicles die just as easily as nonvehicles now, so now its all how offensive they can be before getting 1shotted.

There were a lot of ways to spam S6 though, so AV10-12 were easily glanced to death, and for AV13-14 grav, haywire and D strength were a thing and AV was irrelevant to them.

Moreover most AV13-14 vehicles were overcosted, with only the Knights being the exception.

T8 is pointless. Coming from a Guard player where our "best" vehicles are all T8 with 2+ saves. T8 doesn't mean much at the moment.

Too little, too late.

Swingy damage is going away in favour of far more set (and higher) damage with little variance. They're escalating the rule nonsense with weapons ignoring invul and doing more MW on hit/wounds.

And GW being GW will raise the price of all these things going to T8, when really they weren't worth their current cost at the lower T values.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Completely untrue

Land Raider w/AV14 vs S8 Krak Missile/S9 Lascannon = Damaged on a 6+/5+. Vs Anything S8 and below = Cannot damage.
Land Raider w/T8 S8 Krak Missile/S9 Lascannon = Damaged on a 4+/3+. VS S1 through S7 = Can cause damage.

Yes, vehicles could die in one shot in 3rd-7th, but vehicles these were immune to certain weapons. Now everything can kill everything, and with so many multi-shot mid-damage weapons out there, you can go fishing with high rate-of-fire weapons for targets that shouldn't worry about it.

Maybe give Vehicles a rule saying that they get -1d to a minimum of 0. Then they'd be immune to the grand majority of small arms fire?

If the game had USRs you could make vehicle durability really very simple:

Vehicle/Monster - Units with this Keyword only ever suffer 1 Damage from all wounding hits unless the weapon has the High Impact weapon special rule. Note that additional damage caused by Mortal Wounds is unaffected by this rule.

High Impact - A weapon with this ability causes its listed Damage against units with the Vehicle/Monster keyword. All weapons S8 and higher are assumed to be High Impact.

Vengeful (X) - A weapon with this ability will cause a number of Mortal Wounds equal to the listed value on an unmodified To Wound roll of 6.

Insane Durability (X) - A unit with this ability reduces incoming Damage by the listed value, to a minimum of 1. This ability does not impact Damage caused by Mortal Wounds.

There. Done. Rules are scalable where they need to be, and aren't where they don't!

Exalted. The fact they made a keyword system and completely under used it is a great shame.

While I completely agree that the game has become more lethal and therefore higher toughness/better saves/better invulns are all needed to compensate, I also see a slight issue for the armies that lack viable options beyond Strength 8.

While plenty of factions have melta or melta equivalents, there are also a fair number that do not have access to many options above strength 8 except (at best) in melee. Lascannons don't exist for Adepta Sororitas for example, and aside from some niche options the best they can hope for is either Warsuits with maces making them Strength 9 in melee or the Battle Cannon on the Castigator, which is at best a pretty underwhelming Predator. Of course there are options like Hunter Killer Missiles, a relic pistol in Our Martyred Lady, stratagems, and of course some brutal melee, but my point is that some factions have very little way of dealing with T8 from afar beyond hoping for a 4+ to wound. Even just looking through wahapedia there are other factions, such as Custodes, that have access to very few strength 9+ options outside of melee in their GW range with most of it being on FW options.

I know that's part of the point, to have the strongest ranged weapons in the game be pretty rare and only be useful against the hardest of targets, but with the possible mass influx of T8 in the game I do worry that factions with limited options above strength 8 will suffer. While melee has definitely seen more of a resurgence in 9th, I do not want it to become the only effective way for several factions to deal with T8 on the table. Having a 50/50 shot of wounding something at range when you supposedly have the "anti-tank" weapons of melta and melta equivalents is kind of feels-bad.

Of course, if infantry heavy builds remain common for the missions, then this only really applies for narrative or "casual competitive" games.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Yes, vehicles could die in one shot in 3rd-7th, but vehicles these were immune to certain weapons. Now everything can kill everything, and with so many multi-shot mid-damage weapons out there, you can go fishing with high rate-of-fire weapons for targets that shouldn't worry about it.

Yes, it depends on the vehicles. Former AV10-11 are now undeniably more resilient than they used to be, like also those armored vehicles that had some vulnerability, like the BW that was AV12 on the side, AV10 on the back and open topped. Former AV13 and (especially) AV14 are now more vulnerable compared to what they used to be in general, but not by a large margin. They also got tons of buffs in the meanwhile, including moving and shooting with no penalties and shooting in combat.

A land raider for example was much tougher to crack from distance in 3rd-5th but it was also harder to put it into the right position to max out its damage abilities while also delivering an embarked units wherever it needed it to be. And against melee specialists it's now tougher: my power klaw wielding dudes or warboss instant killed it everytime they charged it. Now it's not guaranteed.

In 7th (maybe also 6th, I wasn't playing during that edition) there were also weapons that glanced vehicles to death, regardless of their AV value. Weapons that some armies could easily spam. Then D weapons.

Damage table was also harsher than what we have now. Stunned/shaken meant useless vehicle for a turn. Immobilized mean useless melee vehicle or transport for the rest of the game, while weapon destroyed meant useless vehicle sometimes.

It'll be intreasting if we get a few more units in the Nid codex to make the upgrade. The single biggest imapct would be a Carnifex, since that could likely be spammed, but I'm not sure if they are going to get it. Curious to see if the Maleceptor and Toxicrene get it.

i'd be kinda surprised if the Carnifex gets it, theyre basically the equiv of a light vehicle.
Supposedly nids are gonna be running a lot of carnifexes though.

Ain't nuthin' "light" 'bout a 'Fex.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i'd be kinda surprised if the Carnifex gets it, theyre basically the equiv of a light vehicle.
Supposedly nids are gonna be running a lot of carnifexes though.

Carnifexes were basically the Nids battle tanks back in the day. They're definitely not light.

Personally back in the day I struggled to see how a T6 creature was supposed to be equivalent to AV13-14 battle tanks.

People these days complain that their tanks are vulnerable to light arms, back in the day Carnifexes were actually quite easy to kill with lasguns.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Too little, too late.

Swingy damage is going away in favour of far more set (and higher) damage with little variance. They're escalating the rule nonsense with weapons ignoring invul and doing more MW on hit/wounds.

And GW being GW will raise the price of all these things going to T8, when really they weren't worth their current cost at the lower T values.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Completely untrue

Land Raider w/AV14 vs S8 Krak Missile/S9 Lascannon = Damaged on a 6+/5+. Vs Anything S8 and below = Cannot damage.
Land Raider w/T8 S8 Krak Missile/S9 Lascannon = Damaged on a 4+/3+. VS S1 through S7 = Can cause damage.

Yes, vehicles could die in one shot in 3rd-7th, but vehicles these were immune to certain weapons. Now everything can kill everything, and with so many multi-shot mid-damage weapons out there, you can go fishing with high rate-of-fire weapons for targets that shouldn't worry about it.

Yeah imma take Bolters wounding a Land Raider on a 6 over "immunity to Bolters" and then dying to three Lascannon shots.