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Made in au
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 Overread wrote:
Also now we talk about it I recall that some managers at the store level (I think esp in the USA which got way more general recruitment instead of UK which was always a touch more hobbiest turned store worker) were told to just focus on new customers and to almost turn away or discourage long term ones.

Ergo lose the "neck beards" and focus on the fresh new customers.

Which is a daft strategy because it means you're constantly aiming to grow by getting new customers; but then not retaining them by losing the old ones.
I know people who worked for GW during those days, and the staff strategy was simple:

1. Initial purchase.
2. One Birthday.
3. One Christmas.

If you bought anything else beyond that, it was gravy, but those three purchases were all they cared about. Once they had you for those, they no longer cared about you.

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That’s nuts man. That’s trading all your hardcore fans with their brand loyalty for fresh faces which while helpful to the hobby likely will drop all your goods for the next game franchise if the other guy has something cool and shiny instead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 03:01:27


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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
That’s nuts man. That’s trading all your hardcore fans with their brand loyalty for fresh faces which while helpful to the hobby likely will drop all your goods for the next game franchise if the other guy has something cool and shiny instead.


Well yes, it was universally agreed by everyone outside GW management to be a stupid idea and they appear to have backed off from it since Kirby left.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
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So what we were taught is that a first year customer spent a couple grand his first 2 years, and after that maybe a couple hundred. Ditto with veteran customers, most of them just bought fills ins, very few bought new armies etc.

Plus, recruiting kids and new people and spending more time with them grew the hobby...they not only would spend more, but possibly bring more people in.

I go to several local FLGS's in my area and only see the same people. I also have noticed the stores only hold events for newer games....So they are doing what GW does, but in reverse, getting veteran customers to buy into new games.

I have no desire to buy little pirate ships.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
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CadianSgtBob wrote:
7th edition 40k was still GW's best selling product line so there was a lot of incentive to try to fix it rather than trash it and start over. WHFB's issues were inherent to the concept of WHFB and the sales numbers were pretty much dead by that point. That's not something you can fix with a few adjustments here and there.
7th 40k was pretty much dead in the end, it had all the same reasons to kill it and replace it with something else as 7th Fantasy had
if 8th 40k would have not been the re-fresh but the same "lets get as much money as possible from those that still play" as 8th Fantasy was, killing it would have been the only option as well
Warhammer Fantasy was killed by GW mid 7th Edition, and this was also the time most people left it for 40k

For the very same reason AoS should have been killed after the first year.
there is no argument against WHFB that is not also true for AoS and 40k, and the only reason why it happened is because someone at GW thought it that they don't need a game to sell models

If Warhammer Fantasy would have seen the 180° turn AoS and 40k had seen because they realised that without a game, they won't sell, WHFB would outsell AoS
But somehow GW needed to learn the hard way that people won't accept everything and collectors are not the ones buying armies

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getting back to his admission they never did market research, that just floored me, I mean.... if I was a shareholder in a company and he said "market research is unnesscary" I'd be inclined to fire him then and there

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 kodos wrote:
7th 40k was pretty much dead in the end


7th edition 40k still dominated the market and provided most of GW's revenue. WHFB's final edition hardly sold anything, to the point that IIRC the space marine tactical squad kit sold more than all of WHFB combined. They were not at all in the same situation.

there is no argument against WHFB that is not also true for AoS and 40k


Two words: model count. WFHB had a massive barrier to entry in the sheer number of models required to build an army, especially when most of those models were just barely-visible wound counters in the giant blocks of infantry and rarely got to do anything but get removed as casualties. AoS and 40k both require fewer models and both games are skirmish-style games instead of rank and file games so your time and money invested into the models feels more justified.

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CadianSgtBob wrote:

Two words: model count. WFHB had a massive barrier to entry in the sheer number of models required to build an army
and this is bs, AoS and 40k need more models than Warhammer did

even 9th 40k armies are larger than Warhammer was, with most of the being wound counters as well
and yes also in Warhammer you could have a 20 model army if you wanted to
not even talking about that the model count in 40k was doubled with formations in 7th for some armies

the game was dead long before model count became a problem
it declined because of bad rules and no official support, like imagine AoS still having the 1st edition rules and the only FAQ you get is "points don't exist" and "we don't make mistakes" with each now book released in combination with a community that was not willing to pay absurd prices for models if you could get a 3rd party army for a third of the price

the same way Lord of the Rings declined with GW doubling the prices. The community in Europe was dead over night, and not like in 40k with people complain about prices, not buying as much but still keep playing the game, people were pissed and stopped playing LotR at all and never came back

8th Fantasy was made to make money from those that were left, GW decided to kill the game (better said, the old IP) long before sales numbers of 8th were relevant

CadianSgtBob wrote:

7th edition 40k still dominated the market and provided most of GW's revenue. WHFB's final edition hardly sold anything, to the point that IIRC the space marine tactical squad kit sold more than all of WHFB combined. They were not at all in the same situation.
and your source is?
that 40k dominated ís based in 3rd party store sales in the US and Warhammer was never big in the US in the first place were it dominated in Europe
(based in those numbers also Warmachine/Horders was popular, but only in the US were it never came close to Warhammer in Europe)

GW itself has never released any numbers for the dedicated games, no one knows which game sold more during which edition except GW and the only sales numbers of boxes we have was during the chapterhouse case, were it was shown that outside of a Codex release the numbers droped near 0, except for tactical marines which sold with each marine codex (even the CSM one) and not just the generic one

And again, if you go by sales numbers, AoS should have been killed as well, there was no reason to even try do invest into a 2nd Edition based on sales/popularity

40k works because there are enough people who are willing to pay the prices for a mass skirmish game with high model count

which comes back to not doing market research but just assuming to know what the people wanted

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Two points. One is you're wrong concerning the model numbers. I still have my fantasy armies (high elves and vamps) and in comparison to my sigmar armies, the wfb have around a 1/3 more models than my sigmar armies. So yes you do need a chunk more.

And second point concerning lotr, yes a lot of people did come back when the game got going again. Our local tournament scene tripling events is testament to that.
   
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and my Chaos Warriors for 8th had less models than my Space Wolves for 7th

and if you play Custodes in 40k, you have less models than on Orc player in AoS

there are always some armies with more or less models, and all games have their elite and mass armies

but the overall numbers of models is not that different to make that argument, people don't play R&F because they need 90 models which is too much but play a Skirmish game were they need 80 models

and LotR has seen some new live recently, but it is nowhere near popular as it once was, and the people I see coming back never stopped playing GW games

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It really is. My high elf forces runs into 150+ pieces. My daughter's of Khaine barely breaks the sixty mark. And don't get me started on the vampire counts.

And the people I see playing lotr are both new and old blood coming in. So your anecdotes are about as valid as mine.

In terms of wfb ending though, something about the game and setting lost its lustre after sixth. Despite this nonsense it was not supported, ( after all, in eighth every book got updated with the exception of skaven, beastmen and brettonia), it was always just more of the same. It really should have gone out on its high of sixth.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 10:18:39


 
   
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General Hobbs wrote:


So what we were taught is that a first year customer spent a couple grand his first 2 years, and after that maybe a couple hundred. Ditto with veteran customers, most of them just bought fills ins, very few bought new armies etc.

Plus, recruiting kids and new people and spending more time with them grew the hobby...they not only would spend more, but possibly bring more people in.

I go to several local FLGS's in my area and only see the same people. I also have noticed the stores only hold events for newer games....So they are doing what GW does, but in reverse, getting veteran customers to buy into new games.

I have no desire to buy little pirate ships.


They were also (in Europe - the US is different with its odd shop based play) reliant on local clubs to keep people engaged and doubled down on that with the 1 man stores, though never entirely figured out how to promote them (with the risk they might play other stuff...), to build communities beyond the (small) carrying capacity of a store. They missed a trick with churn and burn to build those communities which most companies would consider virtuous circles to more sales and engagement.
   
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He seems to be forgetting that GW increased the requirements for ranks in WHFB, which increased the required minimum model counts. The barrier to entry was huge. This is one of the reasons WHFB died.

[EDIT]: Blasted muscle memory.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 11:20:04


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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:getting back to his admission they never did market research, that just floored me, I mean.... if I was a shareholder in a company and he said "market research is unnesscary" I'd be inclined to fire him then and there


But... but... these things are otiose in a niche!

Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
In terms of wfb ending though, something about the game and setting lost its lustre after sixth. Despite this nonsense it was not supported, ( after all, in eighth every book got updated with the exception of skaven, beastmen and brettonia), it was always just more of the same. It really should have gone out on its high of sixth.


I wonder if keeping with End Times for 9th edition might have changed things?

It's the end of the world, new bigger monsters appearing, forbidden weapons taken from the vaults, new factions spilling out of dimensional rifts...

A compromise between blowing up a 30 year old setting, and presenting the new and improved High Elf on Griffon for the fifth time.

 
   
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I think there was definitively a split between the 'old style' WF fans that liked 3rd, WFRP (original), advanced heroquest was the pinacle of dungeon crawling in the old world, the tone fromt he original Felix and Gotrec books, some got into Warmaster etc., but really that old horror filled setting that tended to be lighter on magic. (And magic users were suspicious and often crook.) And the newer far more high fantasy, magic everywhere, warhammer quest dripping in magic items style setting. Which AoS has turned up to 11.
   
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The world of Warhammer was never really light on magic unless you approach it with the "humans are the main character" mindset.

Magic was a core of all the elf societies, it was a core of all of the undead societies, it was a core of the lizardmen, it was a core of chaos etc.

Magic was also a core of the Gotrek and Felix stories. Gotrek is literally running around with one of the most powerful magic weapons in the setting, an axe which belonged to one of the dwarfs ancestor gods.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 13:11:41


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Warhammer had a lot of high magic stuff, but at the same time it also had a lot of low magic elements.


Eg at the top end you've got demonic armies fully driven by magic with living siege weapons, huge demons, earth shattering powers. All being fought against by mighty mages calling down meteors and summoning up ice bears and more .



At the same time you've got your humble spearman in the backwaters. Who has never seen a demon and never will. Who battles the odd hedge witch who might or might not being using magic or just fancy science and illusions.

Gotrek and Felix show this really well. Even though Gotrek is a near godly character with an insanely powerful rune axe; a lot of their adventures are very grounded.



The tabletop side was the same, the bulk of your warriors were armed with sword and spear. Even in magic heavy armies like High Elves the majority of the models would be spears and swords and bow and arrow.





So whilst its very much a high magic setting, it was very special in that it never made itself into a super high magic setting where everyone is a wizard. The bulk of most races were pretty low magic on the whole. Even those races animated by magical forces were fairly mundane.

It also had a lot of its lore relying on real world historical times (romanticised of course). You could imagine how most races lived and operated because they had real world analogies to draw the lines too.

It was a high magic setting but not quite in the style of Epic High Magic fantasy like World of Warcraft presents itself. Old World managed to present itself on many fronts as low magic even though its a high magic setting. Heck there's one of their RPG systems where you were super low magic.





Age of Sigmar on the other hand is the opposite; magic is oozing from every corner and it actually has a serious problem with presenting the life of the regular mundane average character who isn't a major spell caster or ancient spirit or anything. Even just the land itself is hard when you've whole realms of metal with storms of rust clouds and quicksilver rivers and volcanoes and all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 13:29:15


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General Hobbs wrote:


So what we were taught is that a first year customer spent a couple grand his first 2 years, and after that maybe a couple hundred. Ditto with veteran customers, most of them just bought fills ins, very few bought new armies etc.

Plus, recruiting kids and new people and spending more time with them grew the hobby...they not only would spend more, but possibly bring more people in.

I go to several local FLGS's in my area and only see the same people. I also have noticed the stores only hold events for newer games....So they are doing what GW does, but in reverse, getting veteran customers to buy into new games.

I have no desire to buy little pirate ships.

That's a dumb strategy, for many reasons. Firstly, it's not really a zero sum game. GW stores are rarely so busy they have to pick and choose who they sell to, so you can do both.

The main issue, though, is that in my experience it's the veterans that grow the game. GW stores are great for visibility, but long term customers are the lifeblood of any business because keeping customers is so much easier than getting new ones. That's especially true as GW products increase in price and sticker shock starts becoming a major problem. Purposefully trying to turn away existing customers is the opposite of what any good business (retail or otherwise) should be doing.
   
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It's a strategy you'd get if your entire market research is purely looking at direct purchasing impact.


Ergo if you purely look at how much a person spends and their spending habits over time and nothing else; then yes someone new is more likely to spend more. Plus they are more likely to be spending on the entire range - both models, paints, brushes - the lot. So its more likely to be all direct sales, whilst a more experienced person might be getting brushes and paints from other sources and might only be topping up their army not starting a new one.


However, as you say, as soon as you look outside of the direct purchasing you realise that there's a lot more going on. That old guy who doesn't buy much IS running the local club and generating interest. Those older players are teaching, guiding, playing and interacting with the new younger ones.


Furthermore I would say that for any hobby a huge issue in communities is generational gaps. If your community ends up all one age group its going to have a harder time attracting people of different ages. However if you retain customers long term you'll have more of a spread. That reduces the generational impact significantly.


I agree that long term customers, esp in a hobby that relies on real world interaction, are a must. Plus, as GW has found, if you get those long term customers interested again they can at least be relied upon for a big cash injection when a new rules edition or such comes out.

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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The world of Warhammer was never really light on magic unless you approach it with the "humans are the main character" mindset.

Magic was a core of all the elf societies, it was a core of all of the undead societies, it was a core of the lizardmen, it was a core of chaos etc.

Magic was also a core of the Gotrek and Felix stories. Gotrek is literally running around with one of the most powerful magic weapons in the setting, an axe which belonged to one of the dwarfs ancestor gods.


Overread above puts it far better than I. Note for a long time it was a magic axe - it was unusual but it was also remarkable as there was so little other magic about. The whole 'how special is the axe' took how long to develop? Magic was often bound up in focal points but was something most creatures wouldn't encounter like they do now in AoS (I imagine going to the shops is full of magical encounters).
   
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Myrtle Creek, OR

“… That old guy who doesn't buy much IS running the local club and generating interest. Those older players are teaching, guiding, playing and interacting with the new younger ones….”

And telling the new guys that there’s a cheaper alternative for this or that unit. Worse, that there are non-GW games that are actually being played and introducing them to players who have moved on to said games and miniatures and paints and other hobby supplies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 16:24:36


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Which is an argument they undoubtedly made.. except they have a churn and burn strategy. So it shouldn't matter if their leaving customers go elsewhere?

I suppose it's a question of do you want to grow your ecosystem (ironically the situation when GW started in the UK, the wargames (and railways/modelling) scene was relatively widespread and it gave them the environment to grow in) and try and capture that growth, or rule a smaller group of (middle class) customers (I mention middle class because as a kid wargames/models were very much an upper working class activity and lower middle class due to the relative affordability and cost vs time commitment).
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Also now we talk about it I recall that some managers at the store level (I think esp in the USA which got way more general recruitment instead of UK which was always a touch more hobbiest turned store worker) were told to just focus on new customers and to almost turn away or discourage long term ones.

Ergo lose the "neck beards" and focus on the fresh new customers.

Which is a daft strategy because it means you're constantly aiming to grow by getting new customers; but then not retaining them by losing the old ones.
I know people who worked for GW during those days, and the staff strategy was simple:

1. Initial purchase.
2. One Birthday.
3. One Christmas.

If you bought anything else beyond that, it was gravy, but those three purchases were all they cared about. Once they had you for those, they no longer cared about you.


But if they got you, 1,2,3... Wouldn't that mean you were more likely to keep buying? Like landing 1-2-3 was landing a long-term customer who would then be more likely to buy more, on the regular? Do we actually have leaked memos that say "screw the neck-beards!", because this strategy seems to me to be creating long term fans if they could land these three milestones?

Though maybe they didn't adopt plans to openly support neckbeards and superfans, it seems a big leap to assume they were actively working to alienate fans in lieu of newbies. But then, Kirby didn't do market research... So maybe he just had no idea that policies they were adopting were pissing fans off...?

What a weird time that was.

I play...

Sigh.

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 kodos wrote:
and this is bs, AoS and 40k need more models than Warhammer did


It's not BS, it's a reason people were citing for not playing WHFB. And you're ignoring the rank and file vs. skirmish factor I mentioned. Even if the model counts are technically the same it feels like more models when you're painting a block of 30+ copies of the same model, most of which will be stuck in the middle of the block where you can barely see them and never get to do anything but be removed to mark wounds taken.

and your source is?


I told you, I'm quoting that from memory of discussions happening at the time WHFB ended. The exact comparison of WHFB vs. the tactical squad box may not be exactly correct but it was something in that general range. WHFB was a dead game with very poor sales.

And again, if you go by sales numbers, AoS should have been killed as well, there was no reason to even try do invest into a 2nd Edition based on sales/popularity


You don't only go by sales numbers at a given moment, you have to look at trends. WHFB was a dead game that had already crashed from its peak and established a lack of customer interest in further purchases. And there was no reason to believe that WHFB sales would ever recover without a major reboot of the game. AoS was a new game trying to recover GW's fantasy brand from the failure of WHFB. It was expected that sales would be low initially but there was at least the possibility of a path forward to better sales, so it was worth investing some time and development resources to give it a chance before declaring it dead and trying to replace it with another new game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 pancakeonions wrote:
But if they got you, 1,2,3... Wouldn't that mean you were more likely to keep buying?


No. As you might guess from the reference to birthday and christmas gifts the intent was targeting younger kids with no money of their own. And kids rarely stick with a hobby for long. The hope was that you get the first sale with the initial excitement, one gift while the kid is still at least kind of interested, and that last gift that was probably put on the chirstmas list they gave their grandparents months ago but now gets a "meh" when they open the box. And there is no fourth gift because by that point the parents have realized that the kid is no longer interested in the hobby and half the boxes are gathering dust in the closet.

Now, would some of them break the pattern and stick with it long term? Of course. But GW wasn't counting on it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 20:26:28


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On the subject of "needing more models" I think its important to note that Old World needed more models to get started. Because of the rank and file design the game didn't really "work" all that well until you hit at least 1K points and even then 1.5K was really the sweet starting spot. That's a lot to build and work with (even more if your chosen army is something like skaven).

In contrast 40K would down-size more readily to 500points and still play well and look good. A rank and file game at 500 is strange because you're essentially pushing one or two ranks around with a leader so its really just a case of run to the middle and fight. 40K has the whole skirmish feel with units able to sneak around buildings and such.



Sure 40K games have increased in model count and GW, since Kirby left, have clearly realised this. That's why Underworlds, Warcry and Killteam have been made. Heck KT has been around for years, but now its got its own book, its own shelf products and its own marketing and focus. It's not just the short rules on a backpage of the main rules; its a whole format unto itself.












With the 1-2-3 approach the key is realising that if staff are only after those 3 purchases and are only working toward them; then there's a good chance they won't pitch things quite the right way. It's one thing to realise a purchasing pattern, its another to have staff trained to see it and work with it. One is an observation on a pattern; the other is reinforcing the pattern.

Reinforcing it is a problem because its a pattern that is losing customers. Instead of building a system that aims to break it and encourage purchases outside of those 3 moments. Even if those 3 moments are the BIG moments of major sales. It means the staffer is perhaps not bothering to encourage the newbie into painting sessions where they might sell a paint pot or brush between the first purchase and the birthday. It means they aren't even considering any marketing outreach or such after that 3rd purchase.

Again its good to understand purchasing patterns and habits and how to work with them; but also how to encourage change in the positive (for the company).

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I think the whole "warhammer fantasy just doesn't sell" opinion is shown to be utter crap when you look at Total War: Warhammer 1 and 2 and Vermintide 1 and 2. The problem wasn't the setting at all so much as how it was handled. 40k also hooked lots of new people with the Dawn of War rts game series. Fantasy would've potentially had a lot of positive growth after the success of Total War: Warhammer 1. Something Kirby in all his infinite wisdom probably would've attributed to Sun Spots.

Also while Warhammer Fantasy required more models a large bunch of these kits were fairly cheap. Even if you compare dark eldar warriors (10) vs a unit of clanrats (20) the prices are about the same. I mean crap look at the cost of guardsmen these days and even if you look at them pre add-ons it was easily like 35 USD for about 10 guys which are maybe 4-5 points per guy. Interesting how that's about the same price as clanrats in point values (at least in warhammer fantasy) and yet you get double the models. To top it off plenty of boxes of models go for like 40, 60 or 70 usd for newer model units. Fantasy is FAR cheaper in many ways than 40k.

@CadianSgtBob: So you mean having to move 30 or more models individually vs just putting them in a block or ranked up formation and pushing them across the table. To me that sounds like a positive for rank and file and a huge time saver.

Don't get me wrong WHFB had its problems. Quite a few of them were rules bloat which 40k is suffering from right now. Funny how 8th reversed it only for 9th to become as overly complicated as 7th 40k all over again.

As we've all seen with how popular models are at a time it also takes GW pushing interest through new models of older models, brand new units or heroes, an army that is potent and constantly re-vamped model lines. Dark eldar hasn't had a big change to its model line since about 5th edition 40k. Sisters were shafted until they had their re-vamp. In fact whenever dark eldar is competitive it sells lots of models. Space Marines selling so much had a lot to do with the constant attention they got and i wouldn't doubt games like dawn of war and marines consistently being pushed into the spotlight and partly being ridiculously strong before Kirby left and 40k was re-done in 8th. In fact perhaps bretonnia or other factions were never unpopular so much as they had weak codexes which were old and had old models and outdated rules. Compare this to wood elves which didn't sell much until they become ridiculously broken at the end of 8th ed Fantasy.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 22:34:58


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CadianSgtBob wrote:
It's not BS, it's a reason people were citing for not playing WHFB. And you're ignoring the rank and file vs. skirmish factor I mentioned. Even if the model counts are technically the same it feels like more models when you're painting a block of 30+ copies of the same model, most of which will be stuck in the middle of the block where you can barely see them and never get to do anything but be removed to mark wounds taken.

By late 7th or early 8th, "30 identical models" is a lie when it comes to WHFB troops - or, at worst, it was no different to painting 30 Conscripts, Hormagants, Ork Boyz, etc. I can't think of many regiments, by then, that didn't have some variety to them, and most Core troops were in multipart plastic, at that. Some Special or Rare units may have been in a more restrictive metal or "Fine"cast, but even those would have three to five different sculpts, even before the command section.

CadianSgtBob wrote:
You don't only go by sales numbers at a given moment, you have to look at trends. WHFB was a dead game that had already crashed from its peak and established a lack of customer interest in further purchases. And there was no reason to believe that WHFB sales would ever recover without a major reboot of the game. AoS was a new game trying to recover GW's fantasy brand from the failure of WHFB. It was expected that sales would be low initially but there was at least the possibility of a path forward to better sales, so it was worth investing some time and development resources to give it a chance before declaring it dead and trying to replace it with another new game.

GW set WHFB to fail, definitely in 8th, and arguably even in 7th, just from the core rules. 8th wasn't helped by a comparative paucity of releases compared to 40k, either, up until the End Times - which proved popular because people thought WHFB was getting a decent portion of attention again, not because it was about to suffer the same fate as Ol' Yeller.

The structural problems with the game that caused it to get into a sales/popularity tailspin were entirely from GW's changes - increasing the models needed for a rank bonus, the changes that favoured massive blocks of troops, when in earlier editions 20-30 was the most you'd need in a block for most armies, etc, etc. These changes, coupled with the ever-escalating price increases (or value decreases) certainly made it less likely new people would get into the game - anyone else remember the release of the "Goldswords", or the reaction to the pricing of the plastic Witch Elves?

WHFB - and particularly the Old World setting - didn't die of natural causes. It was poisoned by GW, well before they blew it up.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Agreed.

AoS is basically the same models as Old World. Heck Skaven are still selling and running around with first generation plastics and metal models.

Furthermore most of the new models for AoS would have easily fit into the Old World setting. Heck the Idoneth would have fit perfectly for adding a new faction to a world that was already pretty chock full of factions and didn't have huge gaps to fill.

Clearly if AoS is selling then there's nothing wrong with the models nor the sculpting, it was all marketing, release rate, rules and other structural elements as identified. There also was't just one thing that killed it, it was a steady growth of several different things that just bled it of customers. They lose the old guard; they lost the new comers and once you've lost both of those it becomes much much harder to recruit.

Esp if the game "runs at 2K" so any newbies trying to get hit a huge wall of models to build and paint just to play the game. With no big marketing push to get a huge injection of newbies and with no rules set that really worked great with smaller point values and armies; it just had so many barriers.

GW has clearly realised this now and AoS has had many of those barriers pulled down.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

A wider fantasy point is it went from being the main seller, to be eclipsed by 40k. Did that mean the company tried to make it more like 40k? Tried to recapture the earlier popularity? I do wonder what the strategy was.
   
 
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