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...Asymmetric warfare, not isometric warfare.

Please do ten seconds of research before posting if you're going to try and tell people they're wrong.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This is why I don't understand the Hive Mind's actions. Why spend the cost of taking Baal when instead, half that cost would net you all the surrounding planets in the system?

Because the big secret is they don't have the mass. If they did have the mass, are we really believing the Hive Mind would simply not just devour everything? The fact that they haven't yet is a clear indication that they can't. Yet. This means the "Rest of the swarm is still unseen" is bad writing. It just doesn't make any sense given the parameters of "known" information.

The Devastation of Baal was to show that the Hive Mind was capable of noticing specific threats that needed to be eliminated. The Red Scar is a region rich in resources despite the dangers caused by the intense radiation of its stars and resource-rich environments are what the Tyranids like best. The Blood Angels decided the best course of action was to utterly destroy the region and deprive Leviathan of the huge source of biomass. It didn't help things that the Chapter had given Leviathan a bloody nose previously.
The Hive Mind saw the threat of the Blood Angels, noticed their plan, and wanted revenge for being thwarted in the past. That's why Baal happened.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This raises a question in my mind:

Can the nids build new and unnatural forms, or do they need an "Stc" of sorts? A Blueprint? Why can't the hive come together, and make a giant ass planet eating worm that hops out of the warp and eats the planet? Or throws planets at other planets?

The hive mind is dumb as hell bro.

Because making one giant thing is almost always less efficient and less flexible than multiple smaller things working together. How many resources did the Galactic Empire sink into the two Death Star battle stations? Was that really a better allocation of resources than just building the equivalent amount of Star Destroyers and Tie Fighters, even if the Death Star could kill a planet? How many T-34s could the Soviet Union produce for the cost of a single Tiger?


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 Dysartes wrote:
...Asymmetric warfare, not isometric warfare.

Please do ten seconds of research before posting if you're going to try and tell people they're wrong.

And it only works when your opponent is limited in their response. Even the Soviet Union in Afghanistan was restrained from, say, using nuclear weapons on suspected mountain strongholds of the Mujahideen. The Imperium, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, Eldar, even Tau hold no such qualms. If they think you are using caves in a mountain to hide? They will level the entire range if it is deemed tactically or strategically necessary.

Also, a major part of asymmetrical warfare is attacking logistics and infrastructure. Sure, you aren't looking to line up against the enemy force but you do also need to inflict damage to your opponents ability to wage war, be it sabotaging their logistics, using terrorism to attack civilian war support and the morale of soldiers, ambushing smaller forces such as patrols etc.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Easier said than done, as you’d still need to get whatever means of destroying the planet in range and lined up etc.

Given Terra and indeed the Sol System are, presumably, far from short on anti-ship capability? How do you go about that?

I dont quite remember, was it 3 or 5 Necron ships. Managed to stroll into the sol system and hit Mars.
So yes, the Imperium is far short on anti-ship capability.

Oh, the Raider things? With advanced, never seen before stealth capabilities? From a species Millenia in advance of pretty much everyone else?

All they did was a mad dash to Mars. That’s a different kettle of fish from trying to assault Terra.

But it happened. You think they mad dashed. But Necons dont really seem to mad dash anywhere.
And a mad dash with a suicide vest, works more than not.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This is why I don't understand the Hive Mind's actions. Why spend the cost of taking Baal when instead, half that cost would net you all the surrounding planets in the system?

Because Baal is a priority military target. The Tyranids are waging a war here, and no war has been won by ignoring your enemy's infrastructure.

US Civil War, Any war in Afghanistan in the last 50 years, US Revolutionary War.

It's called Isometric Warfare, and is extremely effective when your opponent greatly outmatches you.

Discounting the grammatical error, this is a bad example for several reasons.

#1: The tyranids are the over-matching element here, not the Imperium. Each time they're encountered they're only beaten at great cost and after inflicting extensive, irreparable damage.

#2: The Tyranids have no civilians, no moral, and their infrastructure (which is entirely war based) is bult into the middle of their armed forces. Asymmetrical warfare and guerilla campaigns are about applying pressure where the enemy is vulnerable and bleeding away their moral via a combination of time and casualties. A strategy which ultimate relies on the civilian population of the effected force - generally one which is far away, and these tactics are used against an overwhelming attacker - becoming upset at their family members dying "pointlessly" across the world, and forcing the superior force to retreat via the cost incurred or the threat of the civilian population rising up. Literally none of this is possible when the attacking force is Tyranids.

 morganfreeman wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This is why I don't understand the Hive Mind's actions. Why spend the cost of taking Baal when instead, half that cost would net you all the surrounding planets in the system?

Because Baal is a priority military target. The Tyranids are waging a war here, and no war has been won by ignoring your enemy's infrastructure.

US Civil War, Any war in Afghanistan in the last 50 years, US Revolutionary War.

It's called Isometric Warfare, and is extremely effective when your opponent greatly outmatches you.

Discounting the grammatical error, this is a bad example for several reasons.

#1: The tyranids are the over-matching element here, not the Imperium. Each time they're encountered they're only beaten at great cost and after inflicting extensive, irreparable damage.

#2: The Tyranids have no civilians, no moral, and their infrastructure (which is entirely war based) is bult into the middle of their armed forces. Asymmetrical warfare and guerilla campaigns are about applying pressure where the enemy is vulnerable and bleeding away their moral via a combination of time and casualties. A strategy which ultimate relies on the civilian population of the effected force - generally one which is far away, and these tactics are used against an overwhelming attacker - becoming upset at their family members dying "pointlessly" across the world, and forcing the superior force to retreat via the cost incurred or the threat of the civilian population rising up. Literally none of this is possible when the attacking force is Tyranids.

Also neither American wars were asymmetric, and even in the actual asymmetric case of the Afghan wars, well the Taliban was still attacking and taking cities.

 morganfreeman wrote:
#2: The Tyranids have no civilians, no moral, and their infrastructure (which is entirely war based) is bult into the middle of their armed forces. Asymmetrical warfare and guerilla campaigns are about applying pressure where the enemy is vulnerable and bleeding away their moral via a combination of time and casualties. A strategy which ultimate relies on the civilian population of the effected force - generally one which is far away, and these tactics are used against an overwhelming attacker - becoming upset at their family members dying "pointlessly" across the world, and forcing the superior force to retreat via the cost incurred or the threat of the civilian population rising up. Literally none of this is possible when the attacking force is Tyranids.

The boarding actions against Tyranid vessels that the game Tyranid Attack is based on are specifically Space Marines going on raids within large Nid vessels that have not yet fully awoken from interstellar hibernation, attacking nid "infrastructure" when it is more vulnerable. Imperial (or other) fleets could do the same thing on a larger scale, engaging in hit-and-run raids on the Nid fleet and forcing it to expend energy in defense while traveling in between stars. I believe the Inquisitor Kryptman plan was thus, while at the same time going exterminatus on the planets in the path of the Tyranid fleets so that they could not replenish biomass and energy lost in these interstellar harassment conflicts.

Kryptmans plan was the galactic cordon of annihilated worlds and then the Octarius gamble. The former worked but got him exiled and the latter was a colossal mistake.
He did do a raid during the invasion of Tarsis Ultra and the Scythes of the Emperor did them mostly because they couldn't mount full engagements but generally it's an extremely risky plan for little gain.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

So here’s a proper chin wag type thread, dealing with what-ifs.

As we know, Terra is the seat of The Imperium. It’s where The Emperor lives. It’s where the High Lords rule from. Not only is it the most heavily defended planet within The Imperium (and therefore likely, but not definitely) the most heavily defended planet in the known Galaxy.

It’s the lynchpin that if you want to defeat The Imperium, sooner or later you need to conquer Terra - and indeed the Sol System.

Horus of course came perilously close, with forces from the absolute apex of mankind’s might. Even outnumbering the defenders, Terra still managed to stand, albeit at horrific and permanent cost. But before anyone thinks “just bide your time and assemble a force of similar size”, keep in mind that the Heresy really didn’t last all that long in the grand scheme of things. And had things not gone a bit wrong for Horus, would’ve been even shorter. But since then? The Imperium has had 10,000 years to rebuild and reinforce.

Without Rogal Dorn (In theory, I think he's an Is He Or Isn't He Primarch). But Chaos still (definitely) has Perturabo. The question is how much of a drop off is there from Rogal Dorn to Gregor Dessian. And how much difference more prominence would have made for Perturabo the first time as Perturabo was usually shunted to a secondary role.

So even if a directly comparable in terms of numbers force attacked, it wouldn’t be a simple repeat of the Siege of Terra.

There are also other factors which limit how much weight I think we can put on a direct Heresy vs Now comparison. Not least of which is Mars isn’t currently in Traitorous hands.

But let’s say someone tried it? Do you think anyone really has the resources and organisation to pull it off. If so, how? What are your counter arguments? Would it only ever be a pyrrhic victory?

All those questions and more can be explored……now.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course the flip side as I just realized is there's also no Horus. Which means no Warmaster. The other Traitor Primarchs aren't going to listen to Abbadon, and they're not going to elevate one of their own. Perturabo was assigned to secondary theatres by Horus against his own wishes. This time there's nobody to command and control Perturabo, Angron, Mortarion, Magnus and the like to work together - how much will their individual animosities, egos and agendas interfere with a concerted invasion attempt.


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 Insectum7 wrote:
The Emperor dies of psychic starvation? It doesn't look good.

If the Emperor dies, does he get Perpetual Reborn as fully functioning Primarch Sized Human?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This raises a question in my mind:

Can the nids build new and unnatural forms, or do they need an "Stc" of sorts? A Blueprint? Why can't the hive come together, and make a giant ass planet eating worm that hops out of the warp and eats the planet? Or throws planets at other planets?

The hive mind is dumb as hell bro.

Because making one giant thing is almost always less efficient and less flexible than multiple smaller things working together. How many resources did the Galactic Empire sink into the two Death Star battle stations? Was that really a better allocation of resources than just building the equivalent amount of Star Destroyers and Tie Fighters, even if the Death Star could kill a planet? How many T-34s could the Soviet Union produce for the cost of a single Tiger?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:
...Asymmetric warfare, not isometric warfare.

Please do ten seconds of research before posting if you're going to try and tell people they're wrong.

And it only works when your opponent is limited in their response. Even the Soviet Union in Afghanistan was restrained from, say, using nuclear weapons on suspected mountain strongholds of the Mujahideen. The Imperium, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, Eldar, even Tau hold no such qualms. If they think you are using caves in a mountain to hide? They will level the entire range if it is deemed tactically or strategically necessary.

Also, a major part of asymmetrical warfare is attacking logistics and infrastructure. Sure, you aren't looking to line up against the enemy force but you do also need to inflict damage to your opponents ability to wage war, be it sabotaging their logistics, using terrorism to attack civilian war support and the morale of soldiers, ambushing smaller forces such as patrols etc.

Guerilla warfare also benefits from having say a population to hide in that is also worth enough that the other guy doesn't just decide that no man means no problem. While today I doubt we have anyone that callous I doubt the Imperium would think twice about just slaughtering that entire guerilla movement's support network and just transplanting a new, sympathetic population in their place.

Also Insectum, I dont think anyone can match Tyranid speed in the Void between Stars save the Necrons since the Tyranids travel at superluminal speeds in Real Space which the IOM frankly cannot match. Its only within Stellar Systems do Tyranids lose that speed advantage.

Breton wrote:
If the Emperor dies, does he get Perpetual Reborn as fully functioning Primarch Sized Human?

If he was going to die and come back he wouldn't have needed a doomsday weapon. Maybe he was just immortal not perpetual. Or gave up that part of himself to make his primarchs.

 Gert wrote:
Kryptmans plan was the galactic cordon of annihilated worlds and then the Octarius gamble. The former worked but got him exiled and the latter was a colossal mistake.
He did do a raid during the invasion of Tarsis Ultra and the Scythes of the Emperor did them mostly because they couldn't mount full engagements but generally it's an extremely risky plan for little gain.

I was mistaken a bit on particulars, but the galactic cordon is still involves the action of exterminatus against worlds the Tyranids are about to consume. It's a logistically minded attack intended to maximise the expediture of Tyranid energy/mass while denying them the resources to rebuild.

panzerfront14 wrote:

Also Insectum, I dont think anyone can match Tyranid speed in the Void between Stars save the Necrons since the Tyranids travel at superluminal speeds in Real Space which the IOM frankly cannot match. Its only within Stellar Systems do Tyranids lose that speed advantage.

Ahh, sure. The raids must be happening on the outskirts of systems the Nids are approaching then.

Actually the quote I have is "while the alien creatures were still dormant after exiting the Warp." -Tyranid Codex, 4th edition. . . "gathering information and destroying thousands of creatures while they lay frozen in hibernation."

There's a point during travel when the Nids aren't fully awake yet, and it's prime time to gain an advantage. Space Marines themselves can board the ships and knock out vitals. Fleets could engage while the Tyranids are still sluggish and then get the heck out when they start to awaken.

It doesn't help that GW has been extremely inconsistent in the details of Tyranid FTL

 Tyran wrote:
It doesn't help that GW has been extremely inconsistent in the details of Tyranid FTL

Yahh. Although, has the "hibernation" thing changed at all? Regardless of FTL specifics, it makes sense that large portions of a fleet would go dormant to preserve energy during travel. Or at least do so nominally, while retaining the option of not doing so for the sake of different scenarios/plots.

panzerfront14 wrote:
Guerilla warfare also benefits from having say a population to hide in that is also worth enough that the other guy doesn't just decide that no man means no problem. While today I doubt we have anyone that callous I doubt the Imperium would think twice about just slaughtering that entire guerilla movement's support network and just transplanting a new, sympathetic population in their place.

That is the traditional Chinese method to crush a rebellion: kill everyone. Repopulate with colonists from neighboring provinces.

Also Insectum, I dont think anyone can match Tyranid speed in the Void between Stars save the Necrons since the Tyranids travel at superluminal speeds in Real Space which the IOM frankly cannot match. Its only within Stellar Systems do Tyranids lose that speed advantage.

Is that a function of Tyranid capability or GW's writers not understanding problems of scale?

Short answer, Tyranids.

Long answer, only one race in the 40k setting has the combined mass of several galaxies (background says countless galaxies) that is has consumed and turned into more of itself. The Milky Way galaxy is a deeply fractured galaxy that is unable to put up a united resistance to anything.

Even a very conservative guess and say that the Tyranids have only consumed say 2 galaxies, that is still far more than the inhabitants of this galaxy can deal with... especially as they are also attacking from under the galactic plane.

Tyranids are absolutely the end game of 40k. Which is why they are such a badly written foe. Because their victory is just too extreme, that they have to lose in order to keep the setting chugging along, hence they get beaten at every major point. So they end up becoming a joke... an insanely terrifying one.

Edit. To ram home the point, Tyranids could lose an entire galaxies worth of Tyranid biomass, and it wouldn't slow them down in the grand scheme of things. The level at which Tyranids wage war at, is on a scale that dwarfs everything in the 40k setting.

 stonehorse wrote:

Tyranids are absolutely the end game of 40k. Which is why they are such a badly written foe. Because their victory is just too extreme, that they have to lose in order to keep the setting chugging along, hence they get beaten at every major point. So they end up becoming a joke... an insanely terrifying one.

The clear counterpoint is that galaxies are big. Tyranids could take 100 worlds a year and it'd take them 10000 years to take the mere million worlds the Imperium has, out of a galaxy of 200-whatever billion stars with an appropriately astronomical number of worlds. With that perspective, Tyranids could win every major engagement and it could still take functionally forever for the Imperium to fall.

At a certain point we also have to allow that the only thing stopping anyone is plot armor.

Tyranids have the biomass of two galaxies plus potentially their own. Chaos has the entire immaterium to draw from. And so on down the line.

Part of the problem is that most of the time when GW has an Imperial (esp. Marines) vs Tyranids story it is usually ultimately the Marines triumphing by defeating the big nasty monster and the Tyranids falling apart once the Tyrant or Norn Queen is killed, then like a movie it all ends "happily" with Marines saving the day and the threat repulsed *roll credits*

The magnitude of the Tyranid threat I think might be more properly conveyed if the Marines do their thing....and nothing happens, because there is another Tyrant or Norn Queen already in position. The Hive Mind is now having more redundancy even at that level so the old decapitation strike no longer works, and what the Marines instead have to deal with is a fighting retreat in the face of overwhelming odds as the Imperial situation continues to collapse.

Or they barely squeak out a pyrrhic victory, think they have won, only to then be left defenseless as the next wave appears.

Iracundus wrote:
Part of the problem is that most of the time when GW has an Imperial (esp. Marines) vs Tyranids story it is usually ultimately the Marines triumphing by defeating the big nasty monster and the Tyranids falling apart once the Tyrant or Norn Queen is killed, then like a movie it all ends "happily" with Marines saving the day and the threat repulsed *roll credits*

The magnitude of the Tyranid threat I think might be more properly conveyed if the Marines do their thing....and nothing happens, because there is another Tyrant or Norn Queen already in position. The Hive Mind is now having more redundancy even at that level so the old decapitation strike no longer works, and what the Marines instead have to deal with is a fighting retreat in the face of overwhelming odds as the Imperial situation continues to collapse.

Or they barely squeak out a pyrrhic victory, think they have won, only to then be left defenseless as the next wave appears.

Not just the Nids. The purpose of the stories are one of two:

Selling the newest Whatchamacallit

Generating Tension and hype while maintaining the Status Quo.

What was the biggest story from the past couple years? The fall of Cadia. What's changed? Not much. A little fluff here and there to make the summer campaign books less forced. No more What? How did Chaos get here?!?! Same reason Hive Fleet Leviathan is attacking from Below The Galactic Plane, Necron Worlds are scattered and unknown, and I'm sure the Tau will get some sort of finger waggle soon too.

Iracundus wrote:
Part of the problem is that most of the time when GW has an Imperial (esp. Marines) vs Tyranids story it is usually ultimately the Marines triumphing by defeating the big nasty monster and the Tyranids falling apart once the Tyrant or Norn Queen is killed, then like a movie it all ends "happily" with Marines saving the day and the threat repulsed *roll credits*

The magnitude of the Tyranid threat I think might be more properly conveyed if the Marines do their thing....and nothing happens, because there is another Tyrant or Norn Queen already in position. The Hive Mind is now having more redundancy even at that level so the old decapitation strike no longer works, and what the Marines instead have to deal with is a fighting retreat in the face of overwhelming odds as the Imperial situation continues to collapse.

Or they barely squeak out a pyrrhic victory, think they have won, only to then be left defenseless as the next wave appears.

One of the best bits about Tyranids in 2nd edition was that it was assumed that you're not fighting this little 2k swarm, but that you've actually been on campaign for a while, "played out against the backdrop of a thousand other desperate fights against the invaders" . . . "enacted across the entire planet, very likely throughout the entire star system." And the fighting has taken its toll "The total war fought by the Tyranids places immense strain on the fighting forces trying to stop them . . . After a short time fighting Tyranids, units of warriors are exhausted and their spirit is broken." And you would roll for potential effects before the game began. Vehicles would be damaged, troops infected, or units would just not show up immediately because they're freaked out.

Iracundus wrote:
Part of the problem is that most of the time when GW has an Imperial (esp. Marines) vs Tyranids story it is usually ultimately the Marines triumphing by defeating the big nasty monster and the Tyranids falling apart once the Tyrant or Norn Queen is killed, then like a movie it all ends "happily" with Marines saving the day and the threat repulsed *roll credits*

The magnitude of the Tyranid threat I think might be more properly conveyed if the Marines do their thing....and nothing happens, because there is another Tyrant or Norn Queen already in position. The Hive Mind is now having more redundancy even at that level so the old decapitation strike no longer works, and what the Marines instead have to deal with is a fighting retreat in the face of overwhelming odds as the Imperial situation continues to collapse.

Or they barely squeak out a pyrrhic victory, think they have won, only to then be left defenseless as the next wave appears.

Kind of. For me the failing in how the background is portrayed in Novels is more or less just as above. Marines appear, bad guys go splat, tea and crumpets and lashings of Ginger Beer all round.

But, the background also explains that whilst Tyranids and Orks can be shattered as cohesive forces, actually eradicating them and making a planet truly safe can be the work of generations. On a well populated world, it only takes a single Genestealer to scuttle into hiding, and before long in galactic terms, you’ve got a GSC Uprising on your hands. Add in that Hormogaunts at least can lay eggs, and it’s really effing difficult to truly eradicate them. Orks of course present similar problems, that once you’ve got Orks on your world, you’ll kinda always have Orks on your world.

Chaos Raideds are similar. The Marines might handily deal with the Leader and his Cronies, but unless you’re very lucky, some elements will escape, and continue to bother the local system for decades.

That I think could be made into a decent book or short series. Start with Marines removing the head. Then move on to exploring now PDF, Arbites etc deal with stopping the body getting up and wandering around again. Because that’s a significant drain on Imperial Resources, and helps add to the doom and gloom.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
once you’ve got Orks on your world, you’ll kinda always have Orks on your world.

Orks, the interstellar herpes.

Quite so!

Hell, make it an Inquisition type thriller. Formerly peaceful, productive world or system. Falls prey to Nids or Orks. We come in at the victory, the back of the invasion broken, Marines responsible off to stem the bleeding elsewhere.

Inquisitor arrives, takes overall control of ongoing attempts to eradicate. The World/system is then never the same again. Perhaps the Inquisitor goes Serious Puritan and begins mass executions of those seen as impure by their contact with Xenos. Maybe they’re a Radical doing inadvisable things.

All sorts you can apply a narrative lens to.

Or have like a campaign book like the Forge World Taros campaign book except on a sector wide front. The Hive Fleet is fighting at a macro scale. The human characters and Marines may win their individual local conflicts but prove unable to make a difference at that kind of larger scale, to show the true scale of what they are up against.

That would also be cool!

Hell, pick a System, and give us campaigns crossing a few centuries of time.

Breton wrote:
Not just the Nids. The purpose of the stories are one of two:

Selling the newest Whatchamacallit

Generating Tension and hype while maintaining the Status Quo.

Yeah, the only thing stronger than the Hive Fleet is GW's plot armor against it.

I mean the notion that they've devoured two whole galaxies just shows GW doesn't understand scale. It's the usual "No, THIS is the worst thing ever!" hype.

"Oh yeah, but did those galaxies have the holy power of the Emperor?! I think not."

It's like the other thread - the Imperium is falling and always will be.

GW should go for what they seemed to previously been setting up: Tyranids vs Necrons

The whole idea is that GW has been setting up all these various threats that are all supposedly too much for the Imperium to overcome. So there is a story way out sort of like what Kryptman did. Pit the threats against each other and the Imperium survives by picking them off or lying low while the bigger threats fight each other.

Tyranids vs. Necrons would be a good match up. The Pariah Nexus and Necron supertechnology disrupts the hive fleets and causes huge losses. Meanwhile the sheer number of the Tyranids, their adaptability, and use of psychic power can still do immense damage to the Necrons. Virtually nothing in 40K is an absolute one side wins over the other. So just as the Pariah Nexus might disrupt hive fleet cohesion, the sheer scale of the fleets might still be enough to damage/destroy some of the Necron structures that generate the Pariah Nexus, shrinking it or reducing the intensity of its willpower sapping effects. The seemingly super ships of the Necrons devastate the lumbering but far more numerous swarms but each Necron ship lost is irreplaceable.

That way both of these hyped threats can still act threatening but to each other, and in the process get weakened to a more manageable level for the Imperium to fight.